Posted By: 340mouse
first 440's - 01/25/13 05:24 AM
What year did they first make the 440's, and which year is the best
(68 440 magnum ?)
Thanks
(68 440 magnum ?)
Thanks
first 440's
Posted By: 1_WILD_RT
Re: first 440's - 01/25/13 05:34 AM
first 440 was 66 model year... Best? maybe 67 with the 915 heads.. Or 69 with the LY rods & 6bbl....
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: first 440's - 01/25/13 06:16 AM
What do you mean by BEST ??
Posted By: larrymopar360
Re: first 440's - 01/25/13 07:38 AM
I hope this seems relevant to the question and isn't hijacking the thread. I have been wanting to ask this; I remember hearing some 440's were prone to overheating. Was this a particular production year and what was the cause. Thanks!
Posted By: DaytonaTurbo
Re: first 440's - 01/25/13 07:42 AM
Quote:
What year did they first make the 440's, and which year is the best
(68 440 magnum ?)
Thanks
If by "best" you mean which put out the most power in stock form, that would be the 1970 440 six pack. If by "best" you mean which is the preferred year engine block to build, that's a crapshot. None are really any better than the next. Only way to know is to have your block checked out by a machine shop.
Quote:
I hope this seems relevant to the question and isn't hijacking the thread. I have been wanting to ask this; I remember hearing some 440's were prone to overheating. Was this a particular production year and what was the cause. Thanks!
None more than any other. 440 never really changed much. Head design changed a bit and compression ratios went up and down but other than that no real remarkable changes to the block, only stuff that really changed was the bolt on stuff.
Posted By: Dean_Kuzluzski
Re: first 440's - 01/25/13 10:54 AM
Quote:Quote:
I hope this seems relevant to the question and isn't hijacking the thread. I have been wanting to ask this; I remember hearing some 440's were prone to overheating. Was this a particular production year and what was the cause. Thanks!
None more than any other. 440 never really changed much. Head design changed a bit and compression ratios went up and down but other than that no real remarkable changes to the block, only stuff that really changed was the bolt on stuff.
There was a stiffening rib added to the lwr rh side of the block at around 1969. The #3 main bearing was machined for a larger trust surface in the mid 70's (1973?). Then there's the larger cooling passages added, known as the "figure 8" as seen by the bigger passages/port at the cylinderhead deck surface. Most importantly is the varying amount of cast iron at the "saddle support area".............
OR, just go here and read all about it..........
http://www.440source.com/blockinfo.htm
Posted By: ScatPackNick
Re: first 440's - 01/25/13 11:55 AM
Quote:Quote:Quote:
I hope this seems relevant to the question and isn't hijacking the thread. I have been wanting to ask this; I remember hearing some 440's were prone to overheating. Was this a particular production year and what was the cause. Thanks!
None more than any other. 440 never really changed much. Head design changed a bit and compression ratios went up and down but other than that no real remarkable changes to the block, only stuff that really changed was the bolt on stuff.
There was a stiffening rib added to the lwr rh side of the block at around 1969. The #3 main bearing was machined for a larger trust surface in the mid 70's (1973?). Then there's the larger cooling passages added, known as the "figure 8" as seen by the bigger passages/port at the cylinderhead deck surface. Most importantly is the varying amount of cast iron at the "saddle support area".............
OR, just go here and read all about it..........
http://www.440source.com/blockinfo.htm
Nice link, bookmarked it.
Posted By: Commando1
Re: first 440's - 01/25/13 03:28 PM
Any 440.
452 heads.
Period. End of story. Move on folks. Nothing more to say here.
452 heads.
Period. End of story. Move on folks. Nothing more to say here.
Posted By: 1_WILD_RT
Re: first 440's - 01/25/13 05:08 PM
Quote:
Any 440.
452 heads.
Period. End of story. Move on folks. Nothing more to say here.
Other than Wrong! I have no use for 452 heads....
Posted By: flypaper
Re: first 440's - 01/25/13 06:44 PM
Quote:
I hope this seems relevant to the question and isn't hijacking the thread. I have been wanting to ask this; I remember hearing some 440's were prone to overheating. Was this a particular production year and what was the cause. Thanks!
its more like
bb cars that had 22' radiator openings
were more prone to overheating.
just take the shroud off and you would start to have problems..
Posted By: dogdays
Re: first 440's - 01/25/13 08:13 PM
I don't recall, back in the day, any 440 overheating stories, but then again back in the day, cars with 440s in them had been built that way.
Here's what I think: If I was looking for a 440 I would grab the first block with standard bore that was available at a reasonable price.
Now as far as heads go, for stock heads on a 440 the 452s are out there, they flow like any other '68-and-up B/RB head, also have the same crappy combustion chamber design, but they have hardened seat areas and are easier to home port. The second you start paying someone to port a set of cast iron heads you should stop, think twice and go directly to 440Source, Edelbrock or MP. Those aluminum heads are much better and the cash outlay won't be more than you'd pay a decent porter to work on your 30+year-old cast iron heads.
If you can do most of the porting yourself there's no reason not to use the iron heads especially if you're just building a hot street motor. But the minute you get into horsepower wars, those iron heads have to go. That's unless you are required to use them by class rules.
R.
Here's what I think: If I was looking for a 440 I would grab the first block with standard bore that was available at a reasonable price.
Now as far as heads go, for stock heads on a 440 the 452s are out there, they flow like any other '68-and-up B/RB head, also have the same crappy combustion chamber design, but they have hardened seat areas and are easier to home port. The second you start paying someone to port a set of cast iron heads you should stop, think twice and go directly to 440Source, Edelbrock or MP. Those aluminum heads are much better and the cash outlay won't be more than you'd pay a decent porter to work on your 30+year-old cast iron heads.
If you can do most of the porting yourself there's no reason not to use the iron heads especially if you're just building a hot street motor. But the minute you get into horsepower wars, those iron heads have to go. That's unless you are required to use them by class rules.
R.
Posted By: DPelletier
Re: first 440's - 01/25/13 08:57 PM
I agree with most of the others;
- "best" is subjective and without clarification, unanswerable...at least logically. best block? best engine assy? is the highest hp best?
- all 440 blocks are substantially the same; changes in blocks year to year are negligable, especially for most uses.
- Though there are certainly advantages and disadvantages to various 440 heads, it's kinda like arguing which fat chick is going to win the bikini contest...and you can make decent power with any of them though Dogdays advice on the available aftermarket heads should be heeded IMO.
Unless you care about casting dates and HP stamps, I'd use any 440 block that was in good shape. I would stick with a forged crank though it isn't strictly required and depending on budget, I'd either use any muscle-era 440 head or an Eddy or Stealth set. A painted stealth set for a stock appearing street engine would be my first choice.
Dave
- "best" is subjective and without clarification, unanswerable...at least logically. best block? best engine assy? is the highest hp best?
- all 440 blocks are substantially the same; changes in blocks year to year are negligable, especially for most uses.
- Though there are certainly advantages and disadvantages to various 440 heads, it's kinda like arguing which fat chick is going to win the bikini contest...and you can make decent power with any of them though Dogdays advice on the available aftermarket heads should be heeded IMO.
Unless you care about casting dates and HP stamps, I'd use any 440 block that was in good shape. I would stick with a forged crank though it isn't strictly required and depending on budget, I'd either use any muscle-era 440 head or an Eddy or Stealth set. A painted stealth set for a stock appearing street engine would be my first choice.
Dave
Posted By: 1_WILD_RT
Re: first 440's - 01/25/13 11:04 PM
And here is my reason for liking the 915 head.. Granted it gives up port flow to the aluminum offerings Plus it won't take as much compression as the aluminum heads.... But lots of guys have a shortblock that was built with the piston .018-.024 in the hole... My 383 is like that... If you use a closed chamber head (915) & a .021 steel shim head gasket that puts you at .039-.045 piston to head.. Ideal quench.. But you can't run an aluminum head with a steel gasket so the typical comp gasket is .039 + .018-.024 makes quench .058-.063... Detonation central....
Posted By: BMChrysler68
Re: first 440's - 01/25/13 11:23 PM
Quote:
And here is my reason for liking the 915 head.. Granted it gives up port flow to the aluminum offerings Plus it won't take as much compression as the aluminum heads.... But lots of guys have a shortblock that was built with the piston .018-.024 in the hole... My 383 is like that... If you use a closed chamber head (915) & a .021 steel shim head gasket that puts you at .039-.045 piston to head.. Ideal quench.. But you can't run an aluminum head with a steel gasket so the typical comp gasket is .039 + .018-.024 makes quench .058-.063... Detonation central....
I'm not disagreeing with anything you just said, but how is it going to be "detonation central" with less compression and better heat dissipation?
Posted By: 1_WILD_RT
Re: first 440's - 01/25/13 11:43 PM
Quote:
I'm not disagreeing with anything you just said, but how is it going to be "detonation central" with less compression and better heat dissipation?
Fifteen years ago I built a 340 with 10.4 C/R, aluminum heads & .070 piston to head clearance... It would detonate with more than 28-30 degrees total timing... I wound up pulling the heads & cutting them .030, it raised the C/R to 11.2 but the engine no longer detonates & it is running 36 degrees advance....
Read this..
http://www.kb-silvolite.com/article.php?action=read&A_id=39
Posted By: DPelletier
Re: first 440's - 01/26/13 12:27 AM
Quote:
And here is my reason for liking the 915 head.. Granted it gives up port flow to the aluminum offerings Plus it won't take as much compression as the aluminum heads.... But lots of guys have a shortblock that was built with the piston .018-.024 in the hole... My 383 is like that... If you use a closed chamber head (915) & a .021 steel shim head gasket that puts you at .039-.045 piston to head.. Ideal quench.. But you can't run an aluminum head with a steel gasket so the typical comp gasket is .039 + .018-.024 makes quench .058-.063... Detonation central....
I'm sure you're correct. My point was that all things being equal (i.e. identical compression using, different gaskets, shaving the heads, different CH pistons or whatever) that one cast iron Mopar 440 head isn't going to make a bunch more power than another cast iron Mopar 440 head. Of course MW heads are somthing else.
It's not like oval port vs. rectangular port BBC heads, or RAIV vs. standard poncho 400 heads, or W30 vs. regular 442 heads, or LT1 heads vs. 350 2bbl heads or ...well, you get the idea; Mopar stuff is nice in that you don't need the exotic stuff to get your base engine up to the same level as the HP models.
Dave
Posted By: RUNCHARGER
Re: first 440's - 01/26/13 01:57 AM
I guess the ultimate 440 with stock parts would be to use the thickest wall stock bore block you could find (any year), big valve 915 heads, non HP rods, any year forged crank, 70-71 HP pistons, 69 six pack intake with a set of six pack carbs that didn't have sticking problems, oh and a 73 electronic distributor as well as a 3 bolt drive Six Pack spec camshaft with matching double roller, windage tray and 70-71 HP oil pan.
Sheldon
Sheldon
Posted By: 62maxwgn
Re: first 440's - 01/26/13 02:00 AM
Quote:
I guess the ultimate 440 with stock parts would be to use the thickest wall stock bore block you could find (any year), big valve 915 heads, non HP rods, any year forged crank, 70-71 HP pistons, 69 six pack intake with a set of six pack carbs that didn't have sticking problems, oh and a 73 electronic distributor as well as a 3 bolt drive Six Pack spec camshaft with matching double roller, windage tray and 70-71 HP oil pan.
Sheldon
Just about right !!
Posted By: topside
Re: first 440's - 01/26/13 02:12 AM
I'd venture that the best "stock" 440 was the 69.5 Roadrunner (with the Bauman-prepped carbs & God knows what else) that Ronnie Sox ran for magazine exposure when the A12 cars were introduced.
Posted By: DaytonaTurbo
Re: first 440's - 01/26/13 02:28 AM
Quote:
And here is my reason for liking the 915 head.. Granted it gives up port flow to the aluminum offerings Plus it won't take as much compression as the aluminum heads.... But lots of guys have a shortblock that was built with the piston .018-.024 in the hole... My 383 is like that... If you use a closed chamber head (915) & a .021 steel shim head gasket that puts you at .039-.045 piston to head.. Ideal quench.. But you can't run an aluminum head with a steel gasket so the typical comp gasket is .039 + .018-.024 makes quench .058-.063... Detonation central....
Some guys do run the steel shim gaskets with the aluminum heads. Also IIRC cometic makes a very thin composite gasket as well.
Posted By: Commando1
Re: first 440's - 01/26/13 02:30 AM
Quote:Quote:
Any 440.
452 heads.
Period. End of story. Move on folks. Nothing more to say here.
Other than Wrong! I have no use for 452 heads....
I knew that would be the exact next reply after mine....
Posted By: savoy64
Re: first 440's - 01/26/13 02:41 AM
the earlier 440 blocks had higher nickel content and are stronger and more sought after---later smog year motors were cheapened up in the nickel content----there are mopar articles with metalurgic tests done to all the blocks (years) showing the differences in strength----you would be hard pressed to show the diffence in performance in a 600 hp motor in any of the blocks---bob
Posted By: R/T1968R/T
Re: first 440's - 01/26/13 02:43 AM
I would think the 1978 motorhome block would be best. Has the later cooling passages, less core shift than early blocks and a thick main web. .520 vs .375
Posted By: 1_WILD_RT
Re: first 440's - 01/26/13 05:23 AM
Quote:
Some guys do run the steel shim gaskets with the aluminum heads. Also IIRC cometic makes a very thin composite gasket as well.
Yes guys have run the shim gasket on Aluminum heads, & the heads show brindling damage when they are removed...
And on the Cometics between the cost & the fact many people have had fluid leaks I don't see them as a good option for a regularly driven street vehicle...
Posted By: RapidRobert
Re: first 440's - 01/26/13 05:37 AM
Quote:What would be a good gasket for that app (iron block/alum head), street driven
And on the Cometics between the cost & the fact many people have had fluid leaks I don't see them as a good option for a regularly driven street vehicle...
Posted By: 1_WILD_RT
Re: first 440's - 01/26/13 05:50 AM
Fel-pro & Victor Reinz both have good gaskets for the application but they are to thick if the piston is in the hole... If you build at zero deck it's not an issue but so many pistons wind up .018-.024 in the hole & you add that to the head gasket dimension & quench is out the window...
Posted By: 340mouse
Re: first 440's - 01/26/13 03:52 PM
Wow!!
Guys I did'nt expect this much.
Just wanted a good 440 for a duster project, driver not racer, but wanted the 440 mystic or wow factor,
likely just need a stock 440 from a c body with a good cam or maybe a later motorhome 440 with a good cam.
Thanks all.
Guys I did'nt expect this much.
Just wanted a good 440 for a duster project, driver not racer, but wanted the 440 mystic or wow factor,
likely just need a stock 440 from a c body with a good cam or maybe a later motorhome 440 with a good cam.
Thanks all.
Posted By: Dean_Kuzluzski
Re: first 440's - 01/26/13 03:58 PM
The reason you've heard of 440's overheating is due to the "vertical tube" style radiators that were factory on all of those old Mopars. They tend to clog over time (ALL tubes progrssively), then the motor runs hot, cracks a head, motor gets blamed by the uninformed.
Horizontal tube style radiators fixed that. In this case you only lose the bottom tubes on up and it's a longer progression.
Horizontal tube style radiators fixed that. In this case you only lose the bottom tubes on up and it's a longer progression.
Posted By: 67Satty
Re: first 440's - 01/26/13 04:37 PM
Quote:Quote:
I guess the ultimate 440 with stock parts would be to use the thickest wall stock bore block you could find (any year), big valve 915 heads, non HP rods, any year forged crank, 70-71 HP pistons, 69 six pack intake with a set of six pack carbs that didn't have sticking problems, oh and a 73 electronic distributor as well as a 3 bolt drive Six Pack spec camshaft with matching double roller, windage tray and 70-71 HP oil pan.
Sheldon
Just about right !!
Except I would use the the pistons from a 6 Pack motor to get the pistons closer to zero deck.
Posted By: 62maxwgn
Re: first 440's - 01/26/13 05:07 PM
Quote:Quote:Quote:
I guess the ultimate 440 with stock parts would be to use the thickest wall stock bore block you could find (any year), big valve 915 heads, non HP rods, any year forged crank, 70-71 HP pistons, 69 six pack intake with a set of six pack carbs that didn't have sticking problems, oh and a 73 electronic distributor as well as a 3 bolt drive Six Pack spec camshaft with matching double roller, windage tray and 70-71 HP oil pan.
Sheldon
Just about right !!
Except I would use the the pistons from a 6 Pack motor to get the pistons closer to zero deck.
The original 6pk piston's (1970) were 864 grams,first thing I would do is pitch them.The TRW replacements are probably about the same,my Ross's are zero deck and weigh somewhere around 550 if my memory is correct.
Posted By: 67Satty
Re: first 440's - 01/26/13 05:26 PM
The idea we were kicking around (after going off on the typical Moparts tangent from the OP's question) was how could you make the best 440 motor out of all stock parts, right?
Posted By: RUNCHARGER
Re: first 440's - 01/26/13 05:27 PM
Right on: I used to buy the forged Six Pack pistons and have 200 grams milled out of them, no need for that these days.
To the OP, these engines are old now and most you will find have been messed with. Try to find one that is unbored, uncracked and with a forged crank if possible.
Sheldon
To the OP, these engines are old now and most you will find have been messed with. Try to find one that is unbored, uncracked and with a forged crank if possible.
Sheldon
Posted By: Supercuda
Re: first 440's - 01/26/13 05:27 PM
Quote:
the earlier 440 blocks had higher nickel content and are stronger and more sought after---later smog year motors were cheapened up in the nickel content----there are mopar articles with metalurgic tests done to all the blocks (years) showing the differences in strength----you would be hard pressed to show the diffence in performance in a 600 hp motor in any of the blocks---bob
Got a link? cause I don't recall that being true of Mopars, Chevy yes.
Posted By: 62maxwgn
Re: first 440's - 01/26/13 07:00 PM
Most of the high nickel blocks were the AAQA early Max wedge blocks.
Posted By: Commando1
Re: first 440's - 01/26/13 07:03 PM
Quote:
the earlier 440 blocks had higher nickel content and are stronger and more sought after---later smog year motors were cheapened up in the nickel content----there are mopar articles with metalurgic tests done to all the blocks (years) showing the differences in strength----you would be hard pressed to show the diffence in performance in a 600 hp motor in any of the blocks---bob
Yah. I would like yo see links to those articles also because you have it backwards.
Posted By: DPelletier
Re: first 440's - 01/26/13 07:22 PM
Quote:Quote:
the earlier 440 blocks had higher nickel content and are stronger and more sought after---later smog year motors were cheapened up in the nickel content----there are mopar articles with metalurgic tests done to all the blocks (years) showing the differences in strength----you would be hard pressed to show the diffence in performance in a 600 hp motor in any of the blocks---bob
Got a link? cause I don't recall that being true of Mopars, Chevy yes.
I don't have a link, but I do remember the article. Problem is that the castings were improved as the nickle content dropped a bit making it a wash. Any differences are overstated IMO; any year 440 is just as good as any other; try to find a good one with as close to standard bore as you can get with little to no core shift and no cracks and you're good to go. IMO people overthink the 440 block issue.
Dave
Posted By: Commando1
Re: first 440's - 01/26/13 08:17 PM
Quote:
...any year 440 is just as good as any other; try to find a good one with as close to standard bore as you can get with little to no core shift and no cracks and you're good to go. IMO people overthink the 440 block issue.
You nailed it and here's your backup that will end this myth once and for all:
http://moparforums.com/forums/f62/440-3-engine-4973/
Posted By: ph23vo
Re: first 440's - 01/26/13 09:05 PM
Quote:Quote:
I hope this seems relevant to the question and isn't hijacking the thread. I have been wanting to ask this; I remember hearing some 440's were prone to overheating. Was this a particular production year and what was the cause. Thanks!
its more like
bb cars that had 22' radiator openings
were more prone to overheating.
just take the shroud off and you would start to have problems..
what if your big block [440-6] has a 22" rad and NEVER HAD A SHROUD AVAIL?....obviously they would not sell a package that would overheat regularly... so it can't be this..
Posted By: 1_WILD_RT
Re: first 440's - 01/26/13 09:16 PM
Quote:
what if your big block [440-6] has a 22" rad and NEVER HAD A SHROUD AVAIL?....obviously they would not sell a package that would overheat regularly... so it can't be this..
What 440-6 equipped vehicle that came with a 22" radiator didn't come with a shroud? I've owned 960 with a shroud... I know there was a shroud on my buddies 71 vintage 938 so whats that leave?
Posted By: DPelletier
Re: first 440's - 01/26/13 09:57 PM
Quote:Quote:
...any year 440 is just as good as any other; try to find a good one with as close to standard bore as you can get with little to no core shift and no cracks and you're good to go. IMO people overthink the 440 block issue.
You nailed it and here's your backup that will end this myth once and for all:
http://moparforums.com/forums/f62/440-3-engine-4973/
Thanks, they debunked a couple of pervasive myths in that thread.
...but I'm too cynical to believe that these urban myths will ever really go away! Ever heard these ones? - HP2 = 6 pack
- All 6 pack cars got torque boxes
- All 6 pack cars came with 26" rads
- All 6 pack/Hemi cars came with Dana rears
- All V code cars came with N96
- All '69.5 lift off cars had A12 on the FT.
...etc. etc. etc.
Dave
Posted By: DPelletier
Re: first 440's - 01/26/13 10:01 PM
Hmmm; that gives me an idea... 
Dave
Dave
Posted By: Commando1
Re: first 440's - 01/26/13 10:23 PM
Quote:
Hmmm; that gives me an idea...
Dave
Post the question "Do I have a six pack block"
Posted By: 696pack
Re: first 440's - 01/26/13 10:46 PM
Quote:
The idea we were kicking around (after going off on the typical Moparts tangent from the OP's question) was how could you make the best 440 motor out of all stock parts, right?
No, the OPs question was:
What year did they first make the 440's, and which year is the best
(68 440 magnum ?)
Thanks
Posted By: DPelletier
Re: first 440's - 01/27/13 12:01 AM
Quote:Quote:
The idea we were kicking around (after going off on the typical Moparts tangent from the OP's question) was how could you make the best 440 motor out of all stock parts, right?
No, the OPs question was:
What year did they first make the 440's, and which year is the best
(68 440 magnum ?)
Thanks
Darryl, he wasn't asking about the OP's question.
Dave
Posted By: B5 Bee
Re: first 440's - 01/27/13 01:45 AM
Quote:Quote:
what if your big block [440-6] has a 22" rad and NEVER HAD A SHROUD AVAIL?....obviously they would not sell a package that would overheat regularly... so it can't be this..
What 440-6 equipped vehicle that came with a 22" radiator didn't come with a shroud? I've owned 960 with a shroud... I know there was a shroud on my buddies 71 vintage 938 so whats that leave?
I don't know of one. My 440-6 Bee has the 960 with a shroud. Only other 22" was in the 440-6 SF GT, 2998 969. It used a shroud, 2998 330.
Posted By: A12
Re: first 440's - 01/27/13 07:35 AM
The non-HP 440 came out and in which model year? Was it model year 1966 and does that mean it was available in 1965 for the '66 models?
Posted By: A12
Re: first 440's - 01/27/13 07:37 AM
What were the horsepower ratings for model years 1966, 1967, 1968 and 1969 and which model year had the first 440 HP?
Posted By: 1_WILD_RT
Re: first 440's - 01/27/13 07:39 AM
67 was the first HP @ 375 hp
Std was 350 hp
Std was 350 hp
Posted By: 69CoronetRT
Re: first 440's - 01/27/13 08:12 AM
Quote:
The non-HP 440 came out and in which model year? Was it model year 1966 and does that mean it was available in 1965 for the '66 models?
The 1966 model year was the first year for the 440. Since the 1966 model year started in 1965, yes it was available in 1965 for the 1966 model year.
Posted By: barracudabob
Re: first 440's - 01/28/13 02:31 AM
My 440 came out of a '66 New Yorker, and the casting date is 10-22-65.