Moparts

Rollbars/cages livable on the street?

Posted By: hudsonhornet7x

Rollbars/cages livable on the street? - 01/17/13 05:52 PM

I have a 68 charger that I am in the process of restoring and currently it is a stripped bare shell. I have always been interested in adding a roll bar/cage to it.

Does anyone know of a street friendly system that will allow access to the rear seat, and still allow easy access for drivers?

I am not too interested in building a jungle gym, just a good system to strenghten the car up. Also, at what point does the NHRA mandate a roll bar/cage?

Thanks for any help you can give,

HH
Posted By: dOrk !

Re: Rollbars/cages livable on the street? - 01/17/13 05:53 PM

A restro ....with a rollcage ? ... how does that fit ?
Posted By: hudsonhornet7x

Re: Rollbars/cages livable on the street? - 01/17/13 05:56 PM

Call it a resto-mod, then!
Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: Rollbars/cages livable on the street? - 01/17/13 05:59 PM

At the very least I'd use a 4 point cage (& likely more) plus subframe connectors. No info on a kit but as you said it'd be about how much jungle jim you're willing to tolerate.
Posted By: hudsonhornet7x

Re: Rollbars/cages livable on the street? - 01/17/13 06:03 PM

Quote:

At the very least I'd use a 4 point cage (& likely more) plus subframe connectors. No info on a kit but as you said it'd be about how much jungle jim you're willing to tolerate.



THanks, I have installed subframe connectors, torque boxes, inner fender to firewall braces, and a radiator core support brace. i want to stregthen the car as much as I can.
Posted By: QuickDodge

Re: Rollbars/cages livable on the street? - 01/17/13 06:06 PM

I wouldn't want a roll cage on a street car. I've been led to believe that a roll cage should only be used in a car where the driver is wearing a helmet,race car style restraints and protective gear. A typical 3 point seat belt allows a person's body to move around in the car to a degree. In an accident, a person's head could slam into the roll cage causing injuries.

A roll bar located behind the front seats in a car that doesn't have a back seat would probably be ok, but I'm not an expert on this subject.
Posted By: chargervert

Re: Rollbars/cages livable on the street? - 01/17/13 06:07 PM

If you go to Dodge Charger.com,and look at the pictures posted by member Elanmar,and see what his car looked like after a side impact crash,you will want to put a cage in every Mopar from this era. My friend was hit broadside in his 73 Road Runner a few weeks ago and the results were about the same. These cars have zero side impact protection. If my friend was hit on the drivers side he would have died. If he had a passenger with them they would have died. The passengers seat was crushed into the drivers seat. He could stand up with his feet on the ground where the passengers seat used to be! The rocker panel and roof were crushed all the way to the center of the car. I'm currently building a 71 Charger for a daily driver,and i'm looking into a cage and beefing up the rocker panels to improve side impact protection.
Posted By: QuickDodge

Re: Rollbars/cages livable on the street? - 01/17/13 06:11 PM

Hardtop cars, without a post connecting the rocker panels to the roof do NOT fare well in side impacts! (They look good though!)
Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: Rollbars/cages livable on the street? - 01/17/13 06:11 PM

QuickDodge makes a very good point. I'd want myself strapped in solid or you could add Nascar roll cage padding
Posted By: chargervert

Re: Rollbars/cages livable on the street? - 01/17/13 06:12 PM

Quote:

I wouldn't want a roll cage on a street car. I've been led to believe that a roll cage should only be used in a car where the driver is wearing a helmet,race car style restraints and protective gear. A typical 3 point seat belt allows a person's body to move around in the car to a degree. In an accident, a person's head could slam into the roll cage causing injuries



What would the difference be if you hit your head on the roof frame or pillar of the car verses a rollbar? Atleast you can pad a rollbar. I think you would fair better hitting a round tube verses a squared edge of a pillar or roof edge.
Posted By: chargervert

Re: Rollbars/cages livable on the street? - 01/17/13 06:14 PM

Quote:

Hardtop cars, without a post connecting the rocker panels to the roof do NOT fare well in side impacts! (They look good though!)



The rear quarter of my friends car folded itself into the rear seat therefore a rear seat passenger would likely have been killed as well.
Posted By: dustergirl340

Re: Rollbars/cages livable on the street? - 01/17/13 06:16 PM

Roll Bar: All cars running 11.49 or quicker must be equipped with a roll bar conforming to NHRA general regulations.

Roll Cage: All cars running 10.99 or quicker must be equipped with a roll cage conforming to NHRA general regulations*

*By NHRA rules, a roll cage is not required in a full bodied car until 9.99 or 135MPH. A roll cage is required between 10.99 and 10.00 only at speeds of 135 or higher.

Always lots of debate on this subject but for me a roll bar or cage equals wearing a helmet and harness. Not something I want to do on the street. Your head can travel a long distance during an impact, and hitting a metal bar (even padded with foam) without a helmet would hurt. Even a thick head like mine.
Posted By: 6PKRTSE

Re: Rollbars/cages livable on the street? - 01/17/13 06:19 PM

My Challenger is a street car with a 25.5 cert cage. Drag Radials, Plated insured & parachute mount slides out & can be placed in the trunk. I have a flip down license plate braket on the rear from a 68' Chevelle for the when the chute bracket is on the car I don't have to remove the license plate.

Attached picture 7550763-100_1664[640x480].jpg
Posted By: dOrk !

Re: Rollbars/cages livable on the street? - 01/17/13 06:19 PM

NHRA "rules" ... to hook-yerr-car-up ... youz needz a decent set of tires !
Posted By: QuickDodge

Re: Rollbars/cages livable on the street? - 01/17/13 06:32 PM

Quote:

What would the difference be if you hit your head on the roof frame or pillar of the car verses a rollbar? Atleast you can pad a rollbar. I think you would fair better hitting a round tube verses a squared edge of a pillar or roof edge.



The roll cages reduces the amount of space around a person's head and body. Therefore a person's body is more likely to contact a roll cage than the car's body.

Now in a severe accident, a roll cage would probably make the car safer. In this type of accident, everyone in the car will likely be injured. In a much more common low speed accident the roll cage would probably make the car more dangerous. (unless everyone in the car is wearing a helmet, etc.)

If I was going to attempt to strengthen an older's car's body, I'd be inclined to add reinforcing steel inside the doors, quarter panels, etc. This will be more hassle to install and it probably won't meet competition requirements. But this plan may be the best overall plan for a street car.

Unfortunately, it's impossible to make a car completely safe. All we can do is make them safer. There will always be ways to be injured or killed while driving.
Posted By: 67Satty

Re: Rollbars/cages livable on the street? - 01/17/13 06:35 PM

Quote:

Your head can travel a long distance during an impact, and hitting a metal bar (even padded with foam) without a helmet would hurt. Even a thick head like mine.



I like to sometimes putt around with my three kids in the back seat of the car sometimes. For that reason I will never put a roll bar in my car while it still has a back seat in it. Way too dangerous for whoever is sitting in back IMHO.

I'll run 11.50s with a lap belt before I will do that. At the point someday I run faster than 11.49, a roll bar will go in and the back seat will come out.
Posted By: chargervert

Re: Rollbars/cages livable on the street? - 01/17/13 08:38 PM

I was thinking of making the roof hoop so it would fit up tight to the roof just inside the roof structure,then padding it and putting the headliner over it so it is hidden. I was going to pad the roof with insulation to make it seamless. I was going to make the rear seat cross brace removable so it could come out when people are in the rear seat. It could be held in with cleavis pins,and have padded caps with snaps to fit over the recievers when not in use.
Posted By: BUBBAZ572

Re: Rollbars/cages livable on the street? - 01/17/13 09:23 PM

10 PT CAGE IN MY 70 CUDA STREET CAR
SWING OUT SIDE BARS
NO HALO OR BAR BAR BEHIND THE FRONT SEATS
ALSO LEFT OUT THE DASH BAR
CAR RUNS 10.0 AND NEVER HAD PROBLEM WITH TECH
Posted By: hudsonhornet7x

Re: Rollbars/cages livable on the street? - 01/17/13 10:37 PM

Quote:

10 PT CAGE IN MY 70 CUDA STREET CAR
SWING OUT SIDE BARS
NO HALO OR BAR BAR BEHIND THE FRONT SEATS
ALSO LEFT OUT THE DASH BAR
CAR RUNS 10.0 AND NEVER HAD PROBLEM WITH TECH



Would it be possible to get a couple pics of your cage? It sounds very interesting.
Posted By: NANKET

Re: Rollbars/cages livable on the street? - 01/17/13 10:53 PM

How do you think a classic car would do against a newer car (2000's) in a crash? Answer it to yourself and then watch this and see if you were right.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJrXViFfMGk
Posted By: 72N96RR

Re: Rollbars/cages livable on the street? - 01/17/13 11:07 PM

Quote:

Roll Bar: All cars running 11.49 or quicker must be equipped with a roll bar conforming to NHRA general regulations.

Roll Cage: All cars running 10.99 or quicker must be equipped with a roll cage conforming to NHRA general regulations*

*By NHRA rules, a roll cage is not required in a full bodied car until 9.99 or 135MPH. A roll cage is required between 10.99 and 10.00 only at speeds of 135 or higher.

Always lots of debate on this subject but for me a roll bar or cage equals wearing a helmet and harness. Not something I want to do on the street. Your head can travel a long distance during an impact, and hitting a metal bar (even padded with foam) without a helmet would hurt. Even a thick head like mine.



great info DG!!
Posted By: wannadrag

Re: Rollbars/cages livable on the street? - 01/17/13 11:09 PM

Quote:

How do you think a classic car would do against a newer car (2000's) in a crash? Answer it to yourself and then watch this and see if you were right.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJrXViFfMGk



I would like to see that test with a car that has 2 normal frame rails not saying the results would differ but would be interesting to see.Those impala type bodies up till aroud 64 has a frame sorta shaped like a X and would naturally fold up with a impact in the corner.
Posted By: racealittle

Re: Rollbars/cages livable on the street? - 01/18/13 12:15 AM

Quote:

Quote:

How do you think a classic car would do against a newer car (2000's) in a crash? Answer it to yourself and then watch this and see if you were right.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJrXViFfMGk



I would like to see that test with a car that has 2 normal frame rails not saying the results would differ but would be interesting to see.Those impala type bodies up till aroud 64 has a frame sorta shaped like a X and would naturally fold up with a impact in the corner.



New cars are built to absorb the crash in stages. Old cars have no such provision. A roll basic roll bar or different frame added to an old car would do little to help someone survive from the type of crash shown.

As for a backseat with a roll bar; that is just plain dangerous to the passengers. Seat belts in old cars are just not sufficient to keep you in place. Heads will bounce on most surfaces. A piece of steel tubing that is placed lower and closer to your head will crack your mellon, (padding will not help, a helmet will only marginally help).
Posted By: dOrk !

Re: Rollbars/cages livable on the street? - 01/18/13 12:19 AM

Quote:

How do you think a classic car would do against a newer car (2000's) in a crash? Answer it to yourself and then watch this and see if you were right.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJrXViFfMGk



DAMN ...
Posted By: Ramrod39

Re: Rollbars/cages livable on the street? - 01/18/13 03:59 AM

Quote:

Quote:

How do you think a classic car would do against a newer car (2000's) in a crash? Answer it to yourself and then watch this and see if you were right.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJrXViFfMGk



DAMN ...



How solid was that Bel Air? Did you see the cloud of RED dust come out from under it? Would an insurance institute looking to prove a point fudge or overlook such a thing?
Posted By: 67dodge67

Re: Rollbars/cages livable on the street? - 01/18/13 07:09 AM

Quote:

I have a 68 charger that I am in the process of restoring and currently it is a stripped bare shell. I have always been interested in adding a roll bar/cage to it.

Does anyone know of a street friendly system that will allow access to the rear seat, and still allow easy access for drivers?

I am not too interested in building a jungle gym, just a good system to strenghten the car up. Also, at what point does the NHRA mandate a roll bar/cage?

Thanks for any help you can give,

HH



Contact S&W Race Cars for a roll bar kit for your car. I went with one for my Coronet after talking a several members on the race section. I chose to pull out my rear seat, however, I could have left it in and have had people squeeze in, if absolutely necessary. Here's a pic. I fabbed up the swing out bar for the driver's side. Never had any issues with tech either.
Best wishes, Dave

Attached picture 7551689-427167_10100469144742238_740298997_n.jpg
Posted By: Daty Rogers

Re: Rollbars/cages livable on the street? - 01/18/13 07:47 AM

LEO's sure give bars a strangw look though, btdt...

-Daty
Posted By: 383man

Re: Rollbars/cages livable on the street? - 01/18/13 06:28 PM

I run a 6 point bar in my 63 Sport Fury and its legal to 10.0 since I have the stock firewall. I did not use a swingout bar as I wanted the bar to help keep the car as stiff as I could. I feel the 6 point bar stiffened the car more then the frame connectors do. I have no problem sliding over the drivers bar to get in and out of the car. Ron

Posted By: TC@HP2

Re: Rollbars/cages livable on the street? - 01/19/13 11:36 PM

Quote:

Quote:

How do you think a classic car would do against a newer car (2000's) in a crash? Answer it to yourself and then watch this and see if you were right.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJrXViFfMGk



I would like to see that test with a car that has 2 normal frame rails not saying the results would differ but would be interesting to see.Those impala type bodies up till aroud 64 has a frame sorta shaped like a X and would naturally fold up with a impact in the corner.



Quote:

How solid was that Bel Air? Did you see the cloud of RED dust come out from under it? Would an insurance institute looking to prove a point fudge or overlook such a thing?



Exactly. That era of Bel-Air was an x frame design that had nothing but sheetmetal hanging out where the doors are.

That isn't to say our moaprs are a bunch better, but an X frame is no where near as good as a perimeter frame.
Posted By: TC@HP2

Re: Rollbars/cages livable on the street? - 01/19/13 11:42 PM

Quote:

I was thinking of making the roof hoop so it would fit up tight to the roof just inside the roof structure,then padding it and putting the headliner over it so it is hidden. I was going to pad the roof with insulation to make it seamless. I was going to make the rear seat cross brace removable so it could come out when people are in the rear seat. It could be held in with cleavis pins,and have padded caps with snaps to fit over the recievers when not in use.



Hmmm. IF you could put the A and B piller uprights and the halo tucked up into the existing structure so tight they would fit under the existings panels, this could almost work. However, adding a cross bar behind the seats would kill it because you would have to leave a stub hanging out in space for the removeable bar to pin into. That is like just putting a target out there for someone to smash into and would actually, IMO, be more dangerous than a cross bar.

Like quickdodge said, it isn't the problem that you can pad a roll cage vs hitting the stock inner body structure. It is the fact that you signficantly reduce the space your bady has to stretch before hitting anything. If in stock form your head is 6" away from the roof sill, you have that far to move before making contact. By contrast, put a 1.5" round roll bar tube that is spaced 1" away from the sill to allow you welding access and now you only have 3.5" to allow for movement before striking a solid object. 6PKRTSE has a very nice cage in his car, but I'd hate to be in a hard street accident in it, especially with the funny car cage add in, because your melon will be a pinball inside all that tubing.


Quote:

Quote:

How do you think a classic car would do against a newer car (2000's) in a crash? Answer it to yourself and then watch this and see if you were right.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJrXViFfMGk



I would like to see that test with a car that has 2 normal frame rails not saying the results would differ but would be interesting to see.Those impala type bodies up till aroud 64 has a frame sorta shaped like a X and would naturally fold up with a impact in the corner.



Quote:

How solid was that Bel Air? Did you see the cloud of RED dust come out from under it? Would an insurance institute looking to prove a point fudge or overlook such a thing?



Exactly. That era of Bel-Air was an x frame design that had nothing but sheetmetal hanging out where the doors are.

That isn't to say our mopars are a bunch better, but an X frame is no where near as good as a perimeter frame.
Posted By: SixPackRT

Re: Rollbars/cages livable on the street? - 01/22/13 12:55 PM

I would go with a 6 point as stated earlier. You can always add a few points (pain yes, but possible). But a six point will get you what your looking for. I have one in a T-type I have and had the shop that installed it keep the side bars as low as they possibly could and still be safe (and legal). I didn't want a swing out bar because of rattles and for sake of being more rigid. Keep the bars going into the trunk as high as you can to allow as much access to the back seat as possible. I don't know what kits are on the market, but I would look at getting what you want done for your needs. Any good chassis guy/shop ought to be able to accommodate you. Also (its been a while) but chrome moly tubing will allow you to go with smaller diameter bars than mild steel if memory serves.

Scott
Posted By: justinp61

Re: Rollbars/cages livable on the street? - 01/22/13 04:01 PM

Quote:

but chrome moly tubing will allow you to go with smaller diameter bars than mild steel if memory serves.

Scott



You can only use 1 5/8" cm on a roll cage, a 6 or 8 point roll bar has to be 1 3/4".

I have a 6 point bar with the pro street bars in my Dart. No one rides in the back seat, IMO it's to dangerous even in a minor accident.
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