440 source stroker kit/balancing quality

Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: 440 source stroker kit/balancing quality - 01/07/13 09:13 PM

Quote:

Plus when it comes to money you'll see how good a friend the person really is ...

When I was 12 yrs old the mechanic/radiator repairman/mentor across the street told me "friendship ceases when it comes to money" & I didn't believe him at the time but I without a doubt do now

Posted By: Supercuda

Re: 440 source stroker kit/balancing quality - 01/08/13 12:22 AM

Quote:

I'm convinced & I needed some backup on this. You know how customers are about spending money twice & this guy is a friend. Thanks again guys

Just tell him that in order to ensure he gets the best possible engine he can this inspection/work must be done. If not then you cannot in good conscience build the engine for him as both his friend and as a professional.

See, I can be diplomatic.

Posted By: sam64

Re: 440 source stroker kit/balancing quality - 01/08/13 01:17 AM

only problem i see if it's like around here,finding a good shop that doesn't hold your stuff hostage for 6 months.then you wander just how good of a job they really did do.after all we are mopars in chevy world.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: 440 source stroker kit/balancing quality - 01/08/13 02:46 AM

Every shop these days uses a Hines computer balancer that is easy to use and very very accurate. Grinding a gram or two off new nice rods is just not done--take em out--weigh them up and go with it--a few grams is way closer than anything but the space shuttle--pistons are always close enough too.
Prove to me that a few grams one way or the other made or ruined any combo , even a modern Prostock and I will give you my house!
They may sell China parts that do need looking at but I can teach a 6th grader to do great balance work on a Hines in about 6 hours!--They are all spin and drill--Heavy metal is almost never used anymore--spin it, drill two 3/4 inch holes a half inch deep and you wind up spending more time cleanning it after than balance time--it is a no brainer to get one Nascar close. Look at your pistons and rods, if they have holes and grinding you are dealing with a shop that does more harm than good if we are talking aftermarket parts ( stock rods are a different tale) SCAT makes some of the best done right stuff out there for the average guy--the rods they sell are usually Dead On--Cranks are designed for Target bob weights and are easy to balance unless you are building a turd combo--yes..check pinfit, crank size, taper etc but then what ya gonna do? Regrind the crank? Get pins right , don't worry about the rest if it is decent close. Relax, it is not that hard. Loose is good.....tight, she no gonna work! That is the key. Most folks can't run a mic well enough to check taper in a crank--when Eagle and the rest first started years and years ago with China--it was all junk but now--we have Americans ther to mill wright it all and have shown them over the years what we expect--those parts have gotten WAY better as time has passed--Way better! Scat is the brand I love--Eagle --ehhh, Oh yes Callies is great but the price!!

Posted By: MLR426

Re: 440 source stroker kit/balancing quality - 01/08/13 03:24 AM

Quote:

Doesn't matter whose stroker kit you purchase, it should be gone thru to confirm all specs/fit/finish, it's foolish to pass off any engine component with out checking it out, regardless of the "name" on it....

That is exactly what I tell every customer. I want them to buy it as an unbalanced assembly, so I can check and correct to my liking.

MLR426

Posted By: MLR426

Re: 440 source stroker kit/balancing quality - 01/08/13 03:39 AM

Quote:

Every shop these days uses a Hines computer balancer that is easy to use and very very accurate. Grinding a gram or two off new nice rods is just not done--take em out--weigh them up and go with it--a few grams is way closer than anything but the space shuttle--pistons are always close enough too.
Prove to me that a few grams one way or the other made or ruined any combo , even a modern Prostock and I will give you my house!
They may sell China parts that do need looking at but I can teach a 6th grader to do great balance work on a Hines in about 6 hours!--They are all spin and drill--Heavy metal is almost never used anymore--spin it, drill two 3/4 inch holes a half inch deep and you wind up spending more time cleanning it after than balance time--it is a no brainer to get one Nascar close. Look at your pistons and rods, if they have holes and grinding you are dealing with a shop that does more harm than good if we are talking aftermarket parts ( stock rods are a different tale) SCAT makes some of the best done right stuff out there for the average guy--the rods they sell are usually Dead On--Cranks are designed for Target bob weights and are easy to balance unless you are building a turd combo--yes..check pinfit, crank size, taper etc but then what ya gonna do? Regrind the crank? Get pins right , don't worry about the rest if it is decent close. Relax, it is not that hard. Loose is good.....tight, she no gonna work! That is the key. Most folks can't run a mic well enough to check taper in a crank--when Eagle and the rest first started years and years ago with China--it was all junk but now--we have Americans ther to mill wright it all and have shown them over the years what we expect--those parts have gotten WAY better as time has passed--Way better! Scat is the brand I love--Eagle --ehhh, Oh yes Callies is great but the price!!

What if I told you Eagle and Scat came off the same boat from the same port in Hong Kong ? Yes they have gotten a lot better over the years and thats great. The reason they have gotten better is the work the importer Paul Weisner has done with the manufacturer etc, he also has crank grinders in Hong Kong as well as in Southern Cal where all pasrts are staged, and checked. rods are matched to the closest set weight and cranks are checked with mics before shipping to Scat and Eagle. Back in the late 90's Paul told me they were shipping Eagle a million dollars a month in cranks and rods. I know styles in parts have changed a little and in all they are much better parts. On one of my visits Paul had small parts all over his desk, after viewing I looked at him and said you have been doing a lot of metalurge haven't you ? Paul just smiled and said I've been doing a lot of testing to improve all parts and looking a steel grain structures etc. Tenius Olsen tensile strength etc.

MLR426

Posted By: 440sourcedotcom

Re: 440 source stroker kit/balancing quality - 01/08/13 03:53 AM

Quote:

Tell him to save his money and just have the local guy balance it and not pay the source for it ????

oh wait , let me guess , you can only buy their kits balanced ...

Nope, our kits have been available both balanced and unbalanced since day one. We charge $150 to balance, which has not increased in over 6 years. This $150 is included in the $1997 price of all our stroker kits. If you want any of them unbalanced, just subtract $150 from the price. ($1997-$150 = $1847 unbalanced)

In August of last year, we balanced our 2000th big block Mopar crank. Here is a link to our balancing shop: http://440source.com/balancing.htm

Posted By: RSNOMO

Re: 440 source stroker kit/balancing quality - 01/08/13 03:54 AM

'What if I told you Eagle and Scat came off the same boat from the same port in Hong Kong'

That was my thought...

Composition-wise, how does 440 Source differ from the big shooters here, domestically???

What are the metallurgical differences???

Posted By: 383man

Re: 440 source stroker kit/balancing quality - 01/08/13 04:57 AM

I bought my 4.15 kit balanced from them and checked it myself. I can check everything but the crank (my brother has a machine shop) which was sent out and checked. Everything came out good. In fact I had to buy 8 more dished pistons from them when I decided to use Indy EZ heads as I had flattop pistons at first to use with 84cc Eddy heads but I had to go to dished pistons when I used the 75cc EZ heads to keep my comp at 10.6. I checked the dished pistons also and the eng has been in my 63 for about 2 years. Ron

Posted By: JohnRR

Re: 440 source stroker kit/balancing quality - 01/08/13 02:37 PM

Quote:

See, I can be diplomatic.

Posted By: JohnRR

Re: 440 source stroker kit/balancing quality - 01/08/13 02:39 PM

Quote:

'What if I told you Eagle and Scat came off the same boat from the same port in Hong Kong'

That was my thought...

Composition-wise, how does 440 Source differ from the big shooters here, domestically???

What are the metallurgical differences???

Posted By: Stanton

Re: 440 source stroker kit/balancing quality - 01/08/13 03:36 PM

Quote:

Every shop these days uses a Hines computer balancer that is easy to use and very very accurate. Grinding a gram or two off new nice rods is just not done--take em out--weigh them up and go with it--a few grams is way closer than anything but the space shuttle--pistons are always close enough too.
Prove to me that a few grams one way or the other made or ruined any combo , even a modern Prostock and I will give you my house!
They may sell China parts that do need looking at but I can teach a 6th grader to do great balance work on a Hines in about 6 hours!--They are all spin and drill--Heavy metal is almost never used anymore--spin it, drill two 3/4 inch holes a half inch deep and you wind up spending more time cleanning it after than balance time--it is a no brainer to get one Nascar close. Look at your pistons and rods, if they have holes and grinding you are dealing with a shop that does more harm than good if we are talking aftermarket parts ( stock rods are a different tale) SCAT makes some of the best done right stuff out there for the average guy--the rods they sell are usually Dead On--Cranks are designed for Target bob weights and are easy to balance unless you are building a turd combo--yes..check pinfit, crank size, taper etc but then what ya gonna do? Regrind the crank? Get pins right , don't worry about the rest if it is decent close. Relax, it is not that hard. Loose is good.....tight, she no gonna work! That is the key. Most folks can't run a mic well enough to check taper in a crank--when Eagle and the rest first started years and years ago with China--it was all junk but now--we have Americans ther to mill wright it all and have shown them over the years what we expect--those parts have gotten WAY better as time has passed--Way better! Scat is the brand I love--Eagle --ehhh, Oh yes Callies is great but the price!!

Very well said.

Posted By: Stanton

Re: 440 source stroker kit/balancing quality - 01/08/13 03:43 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Tell him to save his money and just have the local guy balance it and not pay the source for it ????

oh wait , let me guess , you can only buy their kits balanced ...

Nope, our kits have been available both balanced and unbalanced since day one. We charge $150 to balance, which has not increased in over 6 years. This $150 is included in the $1997 price of all our stroker kits. If you want any of them unbalanced, just subtract $150 from the price. ($1997-$150 = $1847 unbalanced)

Don't let that bother you, that's just john-boy making another totally uneducated statement. If you ignore him he usually goes away.

First hand experience ... I bought a 440Source 528" "balanced" kit. EVERYTHING was bang on except the pin fit and that's pretty standard with any set of rods. It all boils down to trust. Just 'cause a guy's local doesn't mean he's better.

Posted By: Teamx

Re: 440 source stroker kit/balancing quality - 01/09/13 11:45 AM

I would just like to put out there an interesting observation regarding engine balancing and these people who worry about 1 or 2 grams. A freind of mine runs a 340 in a form of circut racing where the engine is run up and down through the gears to a redline of 7500 for a period of about 50 minutes per race ( theese motors are worked hard)
After an engine faliure the crank and two rods were taken out so a new crank and two replacment Carilos were installed, the rotating assembly went off to the balance shop. The new assembly was installed and raced for several meetings without issue. On the next teardown some new pistons went in and the engine was rebalanced at a differnt machine shop. It was at this point it was discoverd that the two new rods that had gone in on the previous rebuild were 31 grams heavier each than the other six. It turned out the previous machine shop had all the weights in there computor when they balnced the motor the second time and had not bothered to check the weight of the two replacment rods so that was a total of 62 grams on the same rod journel and the motor run hard with no noticable vibration or issues. This was not ideal but makes me wonder how critical 1 or 2 grams is in a balance job!

Posted By: JohnRR

Re: 440 source stroker kit/balancing quality - 01/09/13 03:17 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Tell him to save his money and just have the local guy balance it and not pay the source for it ????

oh wait , let me guess , you can only buy their kits balanced ...

Nope, our kits have been available both balanced and unbalanced since day one. We charge $150 to balance, which has not increased in over 6 years. This $150 is included in the $1997 price of all our stroker kits. If you want any of them unbalanced, just subtract $150 from the price. ($1997-$150 = $1847 unbalanced)

Don't let that bother you, that's just john-boy making another totally uneducated statement. If you ignore him he usually goes away.

First hand experience ... I bought a 440Source 528" "balanced" kit. EVERYTHING was bang on except the pin fit and that's pretty standard with any set of rods. It all boils down to trust. Just 'cause a guy's local doesn't mean he's better.

I have tried the ignoring part with you but you're still here ...

So are you saying that you bought a balanced kit, had everything weighed to confirm weights were within tolerance, and then had the crank spun , which pretty much would have been having the assembly balanced , minus any weight matching.

Then had the crank installed in a crank grinder and had the taper checked and the indexing checked ???

Posted By: Stanton

Re: 440 source stroker kit/balancing quality - 01/09/13 04:24 PM

Quote:

So are you saying that you bought a balanced kit, had everything weighed to confirm weights were within tolerance, and then had the crank spun , which pretty much would have been having the assembly balanced , minus any weight matching.

Then had the crank installed in a crank grinder and had the taper checked and the indexing checked ???

A very good friend owns the machine shop and we frequently trade favors so I asked him to check the balance - of which I did most of the work. All the piston and rod weights were checked and the crank spun. The final balance was within 1/2 gram. The crank was mic'd to check taper. Index was checked with a degree wheel when we did the trial fit. No problems found.

If you're going to knock a product, you should have first-hand experience. If you want to participate in the discussion at least have the courtesy to keep your comments neutral. There are some VERY experienced engine builders on here who have had NO issues with 440Source stuff but for every one of those there are three bozo's posting hearsay!

Posted By: JohnRR

Re: 440 source stroker kit/balancing quality - 01/09/13 05:35 PM

Quote:

Quote:

So are you saying that you bought a balanced kit, had everything weighed to confirm weights were within tolerance, and then had the crank spun , which pretty much would have been having the assembly balanced , minus any weight matching.

Then had the crank installed in a crank grinder and had the taper checked and the indexing checked ???

A very good friend owns the machine shop and we frequently trade favors so I asked him to check the balance - of which I did most of the work. All the piston and rod weights were checked and the crank spun. The final balance was within 1/2 gram. The crank was mic'd to check taper. Index was checked with a degree wheel when we did the trial fit. No problems found.

If you're going to knock a product, you should have first-hand experience. If you want to participate in the discussion at least have the courtesy to keep your comments neutral. There are some VERY experienced engine builders on here who have had NO issues with 440Source stuff but for every one of those there are three bozo's posting hearsay!

I'm happy that the parts worked out for you ...

No where in this thread did I knock the product .... but everyone knows there is no love loss between myself and the condescending [censored] that is/was the owner ... I suggested to the OP that he save a potential headache and just have it done locally so he knows that it is correct.

I have received emails from members with their tails that are afraid to post them because of the bozos sword swallowers.

Posted By: dogdays

Re: 440 source stroker kit/balancing quality - 01/09/13 06:58 PM

How much difference does one or two grams make? NONE.

Consider that Mopar engines had the WORST balance jobs of the Big Three and there weren't any problems with that. I believe that allowable was something like 1/4 ounce either way, maybe more. IIRC that's something like 7 grams.

Consider too that the formula for balancing a V8 is not derived mathematically but is empirical based on what "works". Then there's the whole issue of over or underbalancing.....

R.

Posted By: Stanton

Re: 440 source stroker kit/balancing quality - 01/09/13 08:56 PM

Quote:

have it done locally so he knows that it is correct.

And again I'll ask ... what ensures the local guy is correct ?? If its wrong, are you going to bad mouth him on here - where nobody has heard of him or gives a damn? And would he care? If your motor blows will he repair or replace it or blame it on you for any number of reasons?

If you bought an assembly from Ray Barton, Muscle Motors, or any other Mopar specialist, would you decline balancing in order to have it done locally by some yokel that builds 20 chevys or fords to every Mopar that comes through the door ?!?!? 440Source ONLY do big block Mopars and they do them in-house. To me, that's worth something. Sorry, "local" is no guaranty of quality !!

Posted By: JohnRR

Re: 440 source stroker kit/balancing quality - 01/09/13 09:44 PM

Quote:

Quote:

have it done locally so he knows that it is correct.

And again I'll ask ... what ensures the local guy is correct ?? If its wrong, are you going to bad mouth him on here - where nobody has heard of him or gives a damn? And would he care? If your motor blows will he repair or replace it or blame it on you for any number of reasons?

If you bought an assembly from Ray Barton, Muscle Motors, or any other Mopar specialist, would you decline balancing in order to have it done locally by some yokel that builds 20 chevys or fords to every Mopar that comes through the door ?!?!? 440Source ONLY do big block Mopars and they do them in-house. To me, that's worth something. Sorry, "local" is no guaranty of quality !!

First off I would ASSuME that the OP is using a shop he TRUSTS , plus the shop is local and if there is an issue you can take it back to the local shop instead of shipping it back across the country , in your case across a border , and from posts I have seen in the past ... ON YOUR DIME ...

Also balancing a Chevy rotating is no different than balancing any other rotating assembly, so that was a pretty stupid statement on your part.

Posted By: 440sourcedotcom

Re: 440 source stroker kit/balancing quality - 01/09/13 09:48 PM

Quote:

Quote:

have it done locally so he knows that it is correct.

And again I'll ask ... what ensures the local guy is correct ?? ...

If you bought an assembly from Ray Barton, Muscle Motors, or any other Mopar specialist, would you decline balancing in order to have it done locally by some yokel that builds 20 chevys or fords to every Mopar that comes through the door ?!?!?

440Source ONLY do big block Mopars and they do them in-house. To me, that's worth something. Sorry, "local" is no guaranty of quality !!

As mentioned above, we've balanced well over 2000 BIG BLOCK MOPAR cranks. We do them nearly every single day, all day long, in house.

The techs know what size bits to use, how deep to drill with them, which counterweights to drill on, and where on the counterweights the holes will need to be placed, based on which kit they are balancing and which components are included in that kit. They know this before the crank even gets put onto the machine. You would too after you had a few hundred balance jobs under your belt, never mind a couple thousand, all for the same engine type.

Last year we actually had to replace the brushes on the drill motor of the balancer, as they had worn down to almost nothing. Our Sunnen rep said he had never seen this before, even on his high volume Chevy production shops, probably because they aren't drilling through induction hardened and nitrated 4340 steel all day long, for many years.

No local shop is going to have a fraction of this amount of experience specifically with big block Mopar cranks. Not saying a competent local shop can't do a good job if they take their time and do it right, have good equipment and keep it calibrated (as we do weekly.) But at the very least, it's going to take them three times as long as us, and you're going to be paying for that time.

Posted By: pittsburghracer

Re: 440 source stroker kit/balancing quality - 01/10/13 12:54 AM

I know I beat on my 440source 500 cubic inch in my Daytona for 3 years (275+) passes running a best 8.60's@151mph. When I took it apart the block was cracked but never leaked and was still running 8.60's. The assembly check out GREAT and will be used by another Moparts member soon. I have a brand new 512 440source assembly that I bought years ago and may replace my 408 smallblock that's in my Duster soon. We are also on our 3rd race season with a starter that we bought from them. I also purchased 2 sets of their heads with zero problems and I bought a very nice set of valve covers from them that are still being used.

Posted By: moper

Re: 440 source stroker kit/balancing quality - 01/10/13 04:04 AM

Quote:

[
But at the very least, it's going to take them three times as long as us, and you're going to be paying for that time.

That's fairly presumptuous on your part given Source's short balancing life compared to some machine shops'.

Speaking from my first hand experiences - The kits are good value. However in my opinion they are not ready to install. I have never chosen to return or turn your cranks, but I have had to weigh the risk of running them at the factory max allowable taper and tighter bearing clearance than I wanted and I've paid to have every set of rods redone because they were out of round after cycling and I've watched the machinist remove metal from both the pin and big ends at times to get the weights matched properly. While we're at it, I also had to modify the thermostat housing to bolt to your water pump housing, and modify the welded aluminum valve covers. So good value has always included careful cheking, measuring, and addressing of issues found. The decision to run things as is or improve them is the builders. Some care to actually look, some look but don't worry, some just don't look - all based on individual experience.

Take it or leave it these are all just opinions.

Posted By: bee1971

Re: 440 source stroker kit/balancing quality - 10/21/17 09:17 PM

Originally Posted By 440sourcedotcom

Quote:

Tell him to save his money and just have the local guy balance it and not pay the source for it ????

oh wait , let me guess , you can only buy their kits balanced ... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh2.gif" alt="" />

Just asking

So on your website today , you have $1999 for rough balance , but your saying that $150 is included ?

Yes I know this thread is four years old , hence the questions and probably adjusted pricing

Then you have $2249 for final balance at another $150 ?

Just curious when I stop at my machine shop next week and I look over the paperwork as your 438 stroker kit showed up at his building a week ago , when he has been holding my block and money for almost six months now and communication has been at best ******** telling me one thing and doing another

Thanx Scott

Posted By: 440sourcedotcom

Re: 440 source stroker kit/balancing quality - 10/25/17 05:52 PM

Originally Posted By bee1971

Originally Posted By 440sourcedotcom

Quote:

Just to clear up any confusion, yes the prices have increased in the four years since the last person posted on this topic.

Many years ago the kits used to be $1997 balanced or $1847 unbalanced.

Now they are $2249 balanced or $1999 unbalanced. However, we also have free freight now, so that would have added $80-$100 to the old prices, so the net increase has really only been $50-$150 over the last 4 years. Hope this clears up any confusion.

440 source stroker kit/balancing quality