Moparts

coil question

Posted By: mopower440

coil question - 12/24/12 03:37 AM

I have the stock electronic ignition on my 1972 dart. Wondering if there is a coil out there i can use in place of the stock coil that i dont need to use a ballast resistor with? Would like to do away with the ballast if there is a coil out there that doesnt need one..
Posted By: mopower440

Re: coil question - 12/24/12 05:32 PM

anyone?
Posted By: scratchnfotraction

Re: coil question - 12/24/12 05:47 PM

I will say a pertronix coil can be run with out a BR. been running mine that way for 17 yrs now.

BUT.. I have a points dist with a pertronix points conversion/pertronix chrome 40,000 volt coil in my 68 Dart,now in my 85 truck.

BR by-passed with a jumper or a #10 strand wire/solderd spades in the BR shell to hind it.

my 88-440 truck will be getting a old skool mallory duel points dist with a pertronix points conversion in it with the chrome 40,000 volt coil as well.

I remove all the stock ecu/elect crap.
Posted By: mikemee1331

Re: coil question - 12/24/12 07:27 PM

MP orange box ECU is supposed to have a ballast. it helps to prevent overheating. now everyone will chime in and say they have been running without one for X years with no issues. all i can say is it is supposed to have a ballast.
Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: coil question - 12/24/12 09:56 PM

I'd want an E coil, but I'm not sure which one
Posted By: PurpleBeeper

Re: coil question - 12/24/12 11:02 PM

I'm no ignition expert, but I've heard it's the ignition box that makes you need a ballast resistor and the coil doesn't matter. e.g. any Mopar ignition box = need ballast
MSD box = no ballast



I know the ballast blow, but just keep a couple extra in the glove box.... or buy a MSD box and pick any coil you want.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: coil question - 12/24/12 11:03 PM

Quote:

or buy a MSD box and pick any coil you want.




This! ^^^^
Posted By: mikemee1331

Re: coil question - 12/24/12 11:24 PM

Quote:

I'm no ignition expert, but I've heard it's the ignition box that makes you need a ballast resistor and the coil doesn't matter. e.g. any Mopar ignition box = need ballast
MSD box = no ballast



I know the ballast blow, but just keep a couple extra in the glove box.... or buy a MSD box and pick any coil you want.


sigh... and a stock coil will also overheat.
Posted By: m88mark

Re: coil question - 12/25/12 03:24 AM

Stock coil needs a ballast.
Posted By: Swedcharger67

Re: coil question - 12/25/12 07:35 PM

You can't just look at the coil as an isolated part. You need to look at the whole ignition system. It is the electronics box that determines if you can run the coil w/o a ballast resistor, not the coil itself.
If the electronic box has a built in current limiter, you can connect whatever low-resistance/high current/high performance coil to your box.
Go with a box+coil intended to be used w/o a ballast resistor. Example Pertronix Ignitor 2 & 3 plus the corresponding high performance coils. I'm sure MSD has something similar.
Posted By: mopower440

Re: coil question - 12/27/12 01:07 PM

wouldnt be so hard if i just knew what ballast to get for the thing. all i know is its a single ballast, not the double and its on my 1972 dart
Posted By: 451Mopar

Re: coil question - 12/27/12 05:02 PM

On summits web site you can select coils by primary resistance. For example the Mallory 30451 "E" core coil has a primary resistance of 1.4 Ohms. I think that is close to combination of a stock coil primary resistance (around 0.7 Ohm) plus the ballast resistor (around 0.85 Ohm.)
Really, the worst case (hardest on the coil and ignition box) is with the ignition on, but the engine not running. With no distributor signal to the ignition box, the output transistor is on, grounding the coil so this is when the maximum current will flow through the coil and ignition box, with the current be limited (mostly) by the coils primary resistance. When the engine is running, the ignition box is switching on and off, and the ignition coils inductance will also limit the amount of current flowing through the coil/ignition box.
Posted By: Swedcharger67

Re: coil question - 12/27/12 08:43 PM

Quote:

On summits web site you can select coils by primary resistance. For example the Mallory 30451 "E" core coil has a primary resistance of 1.4 Ohms. I think that is close to combination of a stock coil primary resistance (around 0.7 Ohm) plus the ballast resistor (around 0.85 Ohm.)




In theory you are absolutely right, the ignition box would see the same.
But, in practice it might not work so well. The reason is the cranking power. Remember that with the ballast resistor in the system it's bypassed and the coil sees the full battery power.

Let's assume battery voltage is 11 Volts while cranking, let's see what the numbers say:

a) original system, ballast .7 Ohms, coil .7 Ohms.
Power to the coil (ballast bypassed) is 11*11/.7 = 173 Watts

b) no ballast, new 1.4 Ohm coil.
Power to the coil is 11*11/1.4 = 86 Watts.

Now you have only half the power to the coil while cranking! If you put half in on the primary, you will have half out from the secondary to the spark plugs!

Go with a complete system, an electronic unit + a coil that the vendor of the electronic unit is recommending.
Posted By: mikemee1331

Re: coil question - 12/27/12 09:11 PM

orange box=1.0 ohm ballast
Posted By: mopower440

Re: coil question - 12/28/12 02:21 AM

well, i just use whatever ecu box the parts stores have, so what ballast would i need for them? Right now i have a blue one from oreillys..
Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: coil question - 12/28/12 03:55 AM

Quote:

Wondering if there is a coil out there i can use in place of the stock coil that i dont need to use a ballast resistor with?


I'm running a MP .25 race ballast with an FBO round black coil with an OE 4 pin ECU on a DD with no issues & it starts instantly. You did say no ballast so reportedly FBO has a newly developed black round coil that needs no ballast. Otherwise I'd do what Scratchn said, a Pertronix I or II conversion on a REBUILT points dist with the matching Pertronix I or II coil which needs no ballast & if so go with Scratchns' notes on how to make it live
Posted By: mopower440

Re: coil question - 12/28/12 12:57 PM

man i would hate to swap out the electronic ignition for points and changeover kit though since its already electronic.. Just need to figure out what resistor i need with parts house ecu.
Posted By: mikemee1331

Re: coil question - 12/28/12 11:59 PM

just go with a 1 ohm. you're over thinking it.
Posted By: mopower440

Re: coil question - 12/29/12 02:26 AM

well, some say .25, some say i full ohm, so i dont know..? explain about the petronix kit, does it eliminate the ballast and ecu box or?? Is it as good as the stock electronic ignition? Does it have as hot a spark as electronic? Reliable?
Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: coil question - 12/29/12 02:59 AM

Quote:

explain about the petronix kit, does it eliminate the ballast and ecu box or?? Is it as good as the stock electronic ignition? Does it have as hot a spark as electronic? Reliable?


(1) Yes (2) better (3) hotter!) (4) Scratchn reports it is flawless for years
Posted By: mopower440

Re: coil question - 12/29/12 03:11 AM

sounds good! so what do i need to do, buy an old points distributor and put the petronix kit in it, drop the distributor in the engine and remove the ballast and ecu from the car? will the distributor plug up to the car the same as the electronic one did? seems like i will have to rewire the car..?
Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: coil question - 12/29/12 03:26 AM

dizzys' develop radial play from the point tension & Pertronix wants virtually no play so the plan is to get a rebuilt point dist from AutoZone (it's cheap/exchange) then the Pertronix I or II kit & the Pertronix I or II matching coil. 2 wires from the dist Pertronix conversion to the coil positive/negative primary terminals. Switched 12V to the coil positive primary terminal & that's it!. Gap it with the supplied non metallic gauge. Dont remove the green tape. Dont use solid metallic plug wires. Dont leave the ign key "on" for an extended period of time. iirc you want a cap with brass terminals but I'd check with Scratchn to confirm & maybe more info & he has a suggested plug type that works well. Put the ballast/ECU in the glove box. I'd do one myself if I didn't have more pressing issues to spend my money on but one of these days...
Posted By: dennismopar73

Re: coil question - 12/29/12 05:16 AM

First question comes to my mind,,, ARE YOU HAVING AN ISSUE WITH WHAT YOU ARE RUNNING NOW?
If the answer is no,, then why change ?
if the question is yes ,,
What are your issues?
I for one do not run any ballast on my coils,, not on the street or the strip!
I have not lost a coil yet!?? my street car have ran it as long as 10 years, when sold it , it is still running to this day with a stock coil and no ballast.

nor an ign box!?
Posted By: scratchnfotraction

Re: coil question - 12/29/12 01:33 PM

Quote:

sounds good! so what do i need to do, buy an old points distributor and put the petronix kit in it, drop the distributor in the engine and remove the ballast and ecu from the car? will the distributor plug up to the car the same as the electronic one did? seems like i will have to rewire the car..?




with the stock elect dist set up,just swaping the dist out with a points style,the black points wire goes to the -side of coil removing the stock elect -wire from coil.leave elect dist plug undone/taped up. I have to readjust points every 3-6 months to keep it starting with a flick of the key.change them 1x a yr.

going to a pertronix conversion,i just pick up a reman points dist from autozone for 30 bux or so. then the pertronix Ignitor I with a flamethrower 40,000 volt chrome coil-1.5 ohm. install in the dist/set airgap with supplied plastic feeler gauge and drop it in.

red wire to +side of coil with the stock keyed power wire.

black wire to -side of coil plus the green tach wire if you have it.

put a jumper in place of the BR or gut the shell and hide the by-pass so it looks like you still have it.

set timing and forget it. I replace cap.plugs.wires about 3-4 yrs

it has got a hot spark and revs to 15,000 rpm.

I just got a pertronix Ignitor I (kit-MA187) conversion and flamethrower chrome coil for the Mallory duel point dist i got from RapidRobert a while back.(RR- I fried a set of those points trying to set the gap)

on my 88 440 truck I have the ecu uplugged and removed,BR by-passed and just taped up the empty ecu plug and hide behind fender brace.

they are simple to hook up and work flawless. I have never had a reason to try the Ignitor II or III kits or the ready to run dist they sell. I have used 15-20 ignitor I and chrome coils fixing a lot of 5th aves/mopars with elect or points dist for other people when they have ign troubles.

it may cost a few bux to swap it over but the old "let me down" ecu stock elect crap is a thing of the past.



Attached picture 7522967-pertronixconversion.jpg
Posted By: mopower440

Re: coil question - 12/29/12 05:22 PM

Quote:

First question comes to my mind,,, ARE YOU HAVING AN ISSUE WITH WHAT YOU ARE RUNNING NOW?
If the answer is no,, then why change ?
if the question is yes ,,
What are your issues?
I for one do not run any ballast on my coils,, not on the street or the strip!
I have not lost a coil yet!?? my street car have ran it as long as 10 years, when sold it , it is still running to this day with a stock coil and no ballast.

nor an ign box!?





Kind of, not getting enough voltage to the coil at startup OR run. Makes it hell to start if sets a few days, i will have to bypass the ballast and run a jumper from the + side of coil to + side of battery and another jumper from - side of battery to coil bracket ground, then she will fire up. after that i can unhook all the jumpers and it will start and run, but after its set for a good week or longer, it wont start unless i do this again. Tired of it, i want it to start when i need it to without all this ..
Posted By: mopower440

Re: coil question - 12/31/12 01:53 AM

if wasnt for that i would leave it.
Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: coil question - 12/31/12 02:07 AM

Quote:

Makes it hell to start if sets a few days,


I hate to ask but is there any possibility that this is a fuel problem as in the bowl evaporating. could you check if it has a good squirt before you crank it next time
Posted By: mopower440

Re: coil question - 12/31/12 02:39 AM

RR, na, that part is ok, Spark just not hot enough. Like i said, if i jumper the coil and all that it will then start..
Posted By: mopower440

Re: coil question - 01/01/13 06:00 PM

when i go to the parts house to buy a reman points distributor, what year and vehicle should i ask for?
Posted By: MoparSam

Re: coil question - 01/01/13 06:11 PM

Tell them 1970 dodge challenger 318
Posted By: mopower440

Re: coil question - 01/01/13 06:22 PM

318 wont work, its a 440
Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: coil question - 01/01/13 06:26 PM

'67 Chrysler imperial
Posted By: mikemee1331

Re: coil question - 01/01/13 07:22 PM

you are aware that you will still need a ballast with points, right?
Posted By: mopower440

Re: coil question - 01/02/13 01:16 AM

Quote:

you are aware that you will still need a ballast with points, right?




no, i didnt realize that.
Posted By: scratchnfotraction

Re: coil question - 01/02/13 01:22 AM

Quote:

you are aware that you will still need a ballast with points, right?




this is correct. you will also need to use a stock POINTS style coil

but.. to get the dist over the counter you tell the parts monkey you need any yr mopar that would have come stock with points. say..67-71 dodge/plymouth/chrysler A,B,C body.

then you can just drop it in the 440 and hook the black wire to -side of coil,tape up the plug for elect dist,leave keyed hot wire on +side of coil(after swaping for a points style coil),AND the BR in place. I have run lots like this with no trouble,just a tuneup/adjustment every yr.

now going to pertronix points conversion,you have the points dist to install the kit in. FYI- it will have a slightly better spark curve as a bonus over the elect dist.IMO.

now you by-pass the BR with a jumper,install the 40,000 volt pertronix coil, hook red wire along with keyed hot wire to +side of coil. the black wire to -side of coil(with green tach wire if you have it)

follow the directions and use the .030 plastic feeler guage supplied to set the airgap on the Ignitor unit.

it will float the valves before it runs out of spark.
Posted By: mopower440

Re: coil question - 01/02/13 01:55 AM

so no ballast needed with petronix kit right? i wont be running points, only the petronix kit in a points distributor.
Posted By: scratchnfotraction

Re: coil question - 01/02/13 02:00 AM

pertronix kit in a points dist,pertronix 1.5 ohm black/chrome 40,000 volt flamethrower coil

no BR

Posted By: mikemee1331

Re: coil question - 01/03/13 12:03 AM

Quote:

so no ballast needed with petronix kit right? i wont be running points, only the petronix kit in a points distributor.


i don't know petronix so i will defer to Scratchn on this but the key to what he said boils down to 'not a stock' coil with that combo. a 'stock' coil can not handle a full 12 volts for any length of time. the amount of current causes them to over heat same as a 'stock' ECU.
Posted By: mopower440

Re: coil question - 11/20/13 02:32 AM

Been thinking, instead of spending money i dont have on a points distributor and petronix kit, i need to just figure out where the voltage drop is and rewire it. Like i said, if i run a jumper wire from the + side of battery to the coil and another jumper from the - side of battery to the coil bracket, it will fire up after setting for a few weeks, but if i dont do the jumpers and it sits a week or more, it wont start..
Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: coil question - 11/21/13 02:07 AM

Quote:

i need to just figure out where the voltage drop is and rewire it.


Have a helper work the key with you under the hood checking voltage drops. Keep the batt charged during this so you dont skew your readings
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