Moparts

Is a 6 Pack worth the money and trouble?

Posted By: 95Kota408

Is a 6 Pack worth the money and trouble? - 12/21/12 05:00 PM

I am at the final stages of my engine build and it is now time to pick my Intake and carb setup. I am leaning toward the Indy Mod Man Six Pack setup. I have no experience with these so I need some advice. I have read mixed reviews so I need to know if the cool factor of having a six pack under the hood is worth it and also want to make sure that they live up to their legend of being great performers. This is a magnum motor 360. Build list is as follows:

408
Block was honed with Torque Plates
Align Honed
Square Deck
Scat Forged Crank
Scat Forged I Beam Rods
AutoTec Forged pistons
Eddie Heads fully ported
2.08 Ferrea Competition Plus intake valves 5/16'' stem
1.60 Ferrea Competition Plus exhaust valves 5/16'' stem
C.H.E. Precision valve guides
T&D shaft mount roller rockers 1.6
Crower Lifters
Innovators West Damper
Moroso Oil Pan
Posted By: ademon

Re: Is a 6 Pack worth the money and trouble? - 12/21/12 05:07 PM

I usually like them on a stock looking or near stock looking engine/car. If that was my motor i would want every bit of hp out of it, so a big single 4bbl or possibly a duel 4 bbl for WOW!!
Posted By: BigBlockMopar

Re: Is a 6 Pack worth the money and trouble? - 12/21/12 05:17 PM

Dual 4's are more impressive than 3-2's in my book.
Posted By: Mr.Yuck

Re: Is a 6 Pack worth the money and trouble? - 12/21/12 05:44 PM

Quote:

Dual 4's are more impressive than 3-2's in my book.




nahhhh 2x4's are common.
They aren't much trouble. I never had a set before and managed to tune these. And I don't even have the fancy metering plates and billet this/that's. Straight factory 6bbl. One thing I will say it it hits harder than a 4bbl and it pulls thru the 1/4 mile...AND seems to get pretty fair gas milage. The key is in the tune. Will it run better than an M1 and expensive 4bbl, probably not.

Attached picture 7512902-4406a.jpg
Posted By: 340SHORTY

Re: Is a 6 Pack worth the money and trouble? - 12/21/12 06:42 PM

I bought my setup Johnny Cash style from my favorite dealer. (I get a good discount). When I was ready I bolted everything together and installed it on my warm 340 in my shorty.

I set the floats, adjusted the idle mixture and idle RPM and havnt touched it in 12 years.

but then if your the tinkeritis type of guy that cant leave well enough alone what can I say...
Posted By: VincentVega

Re: Is a 6 Pack worth the money and trouble? - 12/21/12 07:04 PM

That's a hard question to answer, since we're talking about your personal taste and desire just as much as performance.

The main selling point with the 6 pack is the CFM. This was a big deal back in the day, because the tuning headaches of dual quads was well known even then. Running on a single set of 2 barrels, in the center, with one idle circuit is great. Although I would argue if that your desire, a thermoquad would give a similar result. and everyone loves the sound. especially the 1000cfm competition series.

I own a reproduction small block 6 pack setup, and I have never used it, and I admit I am hard-pressed to imagine a scenario in which I will. They run great, offer plenty of CFM, and reasonable part-throttle features, but it's just not the only game in town.

You can have equal or better performance with either one or two 4 barrels, so that's why I say it comes back to what you really want. If you really want a 6 bbl, then get one. You can make plenty of power with one, and the wow-factor is certainly there.

I will say this, the high-rise 6 bbl aluminum intake is a very nice piece. But don't forget that factory style manifolds will be dual-plane, they are not made for extreme RPM. I don't know what you're trying to spin your setup to, but keep that in mind.
Posted By: Mopar Guy

Re: Is a 6 Pack worth the money and trouble? - 12/21/12 08:26 PM

I gues that if you like a challenge in tune of the carbs you will love the 6 Pack set up ! I use it on a pretty snappy 505 stroker and will never swap it for any money I do not know how the Indy intake works but the stock Edelbrock are great !
Posted By: 95Kota408

Re: Is a 6 Pack worth the money and trouble? - 12/21/12 08:53 PM

Thanks for the input guys. I think that I will defiantly go with the Indy Mod Man intake. I just need to decide how many carbs I want on top of it. This is a tough one.
Posted By: Mopar Guy

Re: Is a 6 Pack worth the money and trouble? - 12/21/12 09:04 PM

Quote:

Thanks for the input guys. I think that I will defiantly go with the Indy Mod Man intake. I just need to decide how many carbs I want on top of it. This is a tough one.




3-2bbl
Posted By: lewtot184

Re: Is a 6 Pack worth the money and trouble? - 12/21/12 09:30 PM

they're ugly, over rated and make very little power. i just hate them!.....

Attached picture 7513172-100_0125.jpg
Posted By: 95Kota408

Re: Is a 6 Pack worth the money and trouble? - 12/21/12 09:35 PM

That is what I am leaning toward. I do like being the odd duck most of the time. Everybody has a 4 barrel setup. Not many have the 6 pack.
Posted By: Clanton

Re: Is a 6 Pack worth the money and trouble? - 12/21/12 09:35 PM

Quote:

Thanks for the input guys. I think that I will defiantly go with the Indy Mod Man intake. I just need to decide how many carbs I want on top of it. This is a tough one.



2X4 BBL ,I did have a 6bbl in the past for a couple yrs without the blower.
Posted By: 95Kota408

Re: Is a 6 Pack worth the money and trouble? - 12/21/12 09:37 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Thanks for the input guys. I think that I will defiantly go with the Indy Mod Man intake. I just need to decide how many carbs I want on top of it. This is a tough one.



2X4 BBL,I did have a 6bbl in the past for a couple yrs.




This is still a possiblity. I doubt I will go with a single 4 barrel.
Posted By: Mopar Guy

Re: Is a 6 Pack worth the money and trouble? - 12/21/12 10:11 PM

You will not regret the ugly 3x2bbl

Attached picture 7513221-17.jpg
Posted By: KillerBee

Re: Is a 6 Pack worth the money and trouble? - 12/21/12 10:25 PM

Yea what a nightmare they are.

Attached picture 7513234-123.JPG
Posted By: lewtot184

Re: Is a 6 Pack worth the money and trouble? - 12/21/12 10:56 PM

haven't tried these yet but should be a simple, easy to tune alternative to a 6bbl.

Attached picture 7513272-100_0227.jpg
Posted By: 62maxwgn

Re: Is a 6 Pack worth the money and trouble? - 12/22/12 12:17 AM

Got both,depends on the application.



Attached picture 7513353-Picture108.jpg
Posted By: Dr V

Re: Is a 6 Pack worth the money and trouble? - 12/22/12 12:21 AM

6 pack!!! I have both in the barn, the six pack was easier to tune than my double 4's. The 3 2's have enormous power on my 440's. Personal preferance though..
Posted By: Triggerfish

Re: Is a 6 Pack worth the money and trouble? - 12/22/12 12:45 AM

You didn't say what cam you have or tranny & gears. The Mod Man's
a short runner single plane & the MP intake is a dual plane, which
may better for your application. Post the cam, trans & gear specs &
you'll probably get more detailed advice.
Posted By: 95Kota408

Re: Is a 6 Pack worth the money and trouble? - 12/22/12 01:04 AM

242 / 250

112 LSA

Lift IN EXH

.621 .621

I am planning on putting this motor in a 70 or 71 Challenger or a Demon. I hope to find one with a 4 speed.

Attached picture 7513424-photo(2).JPG
Posted By: 95Kota408

Re: Is a 6 Pack worth the money and trouble? - 12/22/12 01:06 AM

Head flow chart

Attached picture 7513429-photo.JPG
Posted By: FASTBACK340

Re: Is a 6 Pack worth the money and trouble? - 12/22/12 09:28 AM

Quote:

they're ugly, over rated and make very little power. i just hate them!.....




Me too!


Posted By: 74Cuda

Re: Is a 6 Pack worth the money and trouble? - 12/22/12 10:17 AM

I have built a few 6-pack engines over the years and they are great. Tuning the carbs is not any harder than tuning a 4-barrel vacuum holley, when you know how it is done. I like to use a new set of carbs because you are not starting out with something that is wore out or had many WRONG mods done to them. Here is my last engine I built. I think nothing looks meaner than three carbs on an engine, unless it has a belt turning it.

Attached picture 7513949-440.jpg
Posted By: gdonovan

Re: Is a 6 Pack worth the money and trouble? - 12/22/12 11:18 AM

Quote:

Dual 4's are more impressive than 3-2's in my book.




I had a T/A setup on my Dart back in the 80's and didn't care for it.

Dual quads on the other hand.. Never had any tuning issues and ran like a scalded dog.

To each their own.

Attached picture 7513954-dart6pack.jpg
Posted By: jbc426

Re: Is a 6 Pack worth the money and trouble? - 12/22/12 12:58 PM

I like the build you're doing. I went a similar route on my build except on a big block. The six pack I'm running has the manifold deep ported and uses the mechanical secondary carbs. They all have accelerator pumps. I don't really like the feel of the vacuum secondary style of carbs, but that's a preference thing.

The six pack gives the motor a Dr Jekyle & Mr Hyde type of personality, mild mannered with decent mileage while on the center carb, and brutal power and acceleration when the outboards are tipped in.

When the unknowing ask to go for a ride in my car, I innocently lull them into relaxing by driving smooth and normal on the center carb. Right when they are all relaxed and not expecting it, I tip in the outboards, the motor changes personality with a sinister, Mr Hyde-like roar, their legs and arms lock to brace themselves as their eyes get as big as silver dollars. 700 hp will do that too you.

As soon as I go back on the center carb, they all seem to have a smile on their face that outlasts the ride home. It's the little things in life that make me smile these days.

When the motor was being dynoed, I had them test it with a big 4 barrel, the six pack was a bit stronger in the mid-range , and the single 4 eeked out a handful more hp at high rpm.

For me, my car would be bit less fun to drive and not as street friendly without a six pax on it.

Attached picture 7513990-IMG_2553(Large).JPG
Posted By: 1cuda

Re: Is a 6 Pack worth the money and trouble? - 12/22/12 02:30 PM

six packs are crap-anyone with a setup should throw it away or better still send it to me to throw away... sixpackfrank@bigpond.com
all the best
frank
Posted By: pnypwr

Re: Is a 6 Pack worth the money and trouble? - 12/22/12 03:21 PM

why not go efi with 3 2v throttle bodies? I think I saw that setup somewhere...then youd be the only kid in town with one for sure and all the tuning issues are done by the computer
Posted By: moparcanuk

Re: Is a 6 Pack worth the money and trouble? - 12/22/12 03:28 PM

I bought my 69 GTX 4 months before the 6 Packs came out. I've wanted one for over 40 years and I am finally going to put one on my GTX.

My answer is YYYYYEEEESSSSSS!
Posted By: 62maxwgn

Re: Is a 6 Pack worth the money and trouble? - 12/22/12 03:43 PM

Quote:

why not go efi with 3 2v throttle bodies? I think I saw that setup somewhere...then youd be the only kid in town with one for sure and all the tuning issues are done by the computer




What is $$ comparison ?
Posted By: 383man

Re: Is a 6 Pack worth the money and trouble? - 12/22/12 04:17 PM

I have seen some very stout running 6pk cars. I have seen dyno test on 440 engines where the 6pk made as much power as a single plane with a single carb. Only when it had the dominator did it make a tad more. Ron
Posted By: 6bblFLASH

Re: Is a 6 Pack worth the money and trouble? - 12/22/12 04:18 PM

It really comes down to personal taste and expectations

IMO people think this is best or worse based on gossip and B.S.
Street/Strip wise its hard to top.

I`ve run a 6bbl. since 1983, runs with the best of`em.
BUT,,,,,, I`m also sure I could go quicker with something else IF I put as much time/money into finding it.
How much faster is a new argument

Attached picture 7514142-QuakerWheelie.jpg
Posted By: 383man

Re: Is a 6 Pack worth the money and trouble? - 12/22/12 04:23 PM

Quote:

It really comes down to personal taste and expectations

IMO people think this is best or worse based on gossip and B.S.
(Street/Strip wise its hard to top.)

I`ve run a 6bbl. since 1983, runs with the best of`em.
BUT,,,,,, I`m also sure I could go quicker with something else IF I put as much time/money into finding it.
How much faster is a new argument




I agree with this. I would have consider the 6pk setup for my car but if I make any changes since my car is from the Max Wedge era I would go with the crossram. A 6pk on a 63 Max Wedge era car just dont look right to me. Ron
Posted By: 2boltmain

Re: Is a 6 Pack worth the money and trouble? - 12/22/12 04:26 PM

Quote:

haven't tried these yet but should be a simple, easy to tune alternative to a 6bbl.





Edelbrock 2x4 setup is less expensive than a 6 pack.
Posted By: 95Kota408

Re: Is a 6 Pack worth the money and trouble? - 12/22/12 05:25 PM

Quote:

I like the build you're doing. I went a similar route on my build except on a big block. The six pack I'm running has the manifold deep ported and uses the mechanical secondary carbs. They all have accelerator pumps. I don't really like the feel of the vacuum secondary style of carbs, but that's a preference thing.

The six pack gives the motor a Dr Jekyle & Mr Hyde type of personality, mild mannered with decent mileage while on the center carb, and brutal power and acceleration when the outboards are tipped in.

When the unknowing ask to go for a ride in my car, I innocently lull them into relaxing by driving smooth and normal on the center carb. Right when they are all relaxed and not expecting it, I tip in the outboards, the motor changes personality with a sinister, Mr Hyde-like roar, their legs and arms lock to brace themselves as their eyes get as big as silver dollars. 700 hp will do that too you.

As soon as I go back on the center carb, they all seem to have a smile on their face that outlasts the ride home. It's the little things in life that make me smile these days.

When the motor was being dynoed, I had them test it with a big 4 barrel, the six pack was a bit stronger in the mid-range , and the single 4 eeked out a handful more hp at high rpm.

For me, my car would be bit less fun to drive and not as street friendly without a six pax on it.




Thanks! There has been some thought put into it for sure. I like the idea of using mechanical secondary's and accelerator pumps on each one. More info please. So far the six pack is winning this debate!
Posted By: 95Kota408

Re: Is a 6 Pack worth the money and trouble? - 12/22/12 05:34 PM

I am hoping to see 600hp out of this motor. Should be fun in a street setup.
Posted By: Rapid340

Re: Is a 6 Pack worth the money and trouble? - 12/22/12 07:18 PM

I thought about trying a six pack set-up on my FAST duster just for fun. Not sure if it would fit under a stock hood though.

My hunch is a ported six pack intake would yield a decent power increase over a ported factory intake but little or nothing over a good 4 bbl single plane intake.

Posted By: jbc426

Re: Is a 6 Pack worth the money and trouble? - 12/22/12 09:32 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I like the build you're doing. I went a similar route on my build except on a big block. The six pack I'm running has the manifold deep ported and uses the mechanical secondary carbs. They all have accelerator pumps. I don't really like the feel of the vacuum secondary style of carbs, but that's a preference thing.

The six pack gives the motor a Dr Jekyle & Mr Hyde type of personality, mild mannered with decent mileage while on the center carb, and brutal power and acceleration when the outboards are tipped in.

When the unknowing ask to go for a ride in my car, I innocently lull them into relaxing by driving smooth and normal on the center carb. Right when they are all relaxed and not expecting it, I tip in the outboards, the motor changes personality with a sinister, Mr Hyde-like roar, their legs and arms lock to brace themselves as their eyes get as big as silver dollars. 700 hp will do that too you.

As soon as I go back on the center carb, they all seem to have a smile on their face that outlasts the ride home. It's the little things in life that make me smile these days.

When the motor was being dynoed, I had them test it with a big 4 barrel, the six pack was a bit stronger in the mid-range , and the single 4 eeked out a handful more hp at high rpm.

For me, my car would be bit less fun to drive and not as street friendly without a six pax on it.




Thanks! There has been some thought put into it for sure. I like the idea of using mechanical secondary's and accelerator pumps on each one. More info please. So far the six pack is winning this debate!




The mechanical six pack Holley 2300 carbs were sold over the counter under the Direct Connection banner as "Racing" carbs. They were also used on Ford's during the '60's. It takes a bit of searching, but there are still a lot of nice sets out there, especially if you Google Ford set-ups.

Hughes Engines deep ported the intake and stage 2 ported my Indy EZ's. I picked up a very nice heim-joint linkage set-up from Ben at ProMax. I used a wide band to tune them, which makes it relatively easy to get them virtually spot on in no time.

Here's a pic of the linkage, and an old fuel line I had made up. I've since gone to three individual fuel lines. Notice the fuel feed is on the opposite side, as the float bowls are side hung.

Attached picture 7514475-68Barracudasubframeconnectors046(Large).jpg
Posted By: gdonovan

Re: Is a 6 Pack worth the money and trouble? - 12/22/12 09:46 PM

Quote:

I thought about trying a six pack set-up on my FAST duster just for fun. Not sure if it would fit under a stock hood though.






Fit under the stock, flat hood of a '67 Dart without a problem.
Posted By: HYPER8oSoNic

Re: Is a 6 Pack worth the money and trouble? - 12/22/12 10:52 PM

Quote:

Quote:

It really comes down to personal taste and expectations

IMO people think this is best or worse based on gossip and B.S.
(Street/Strip wise its hard to top.)

I`ve run a 6bbl. since 1983, runs with the best of`em.
BUT,,,,,, I`m also sure I could go quicker with something else IF I put as much time/money into finding it.
How much faster is a new argument




I agree with this. I would have consider the 6pk setup for my car but if I make any changes since my car is from the Max Wedge era I would go with the crossram. A 6pk on a 63 Max Wedge era car just dont look right to me. Ron




with both quotes
A 6pk setup on a Max Wedge-era car is kinda functional for the times, but just wouldn't be a Max-Wedge. The two carbs and crossram intake is its' calling card. Both setups make for a excellent street/strip setup other than a well-tuned 4bbl setup. 6bbls work best with medium to heavyweight cars, while the Crossram setup works very well with medium to lightweight cars. As for a2x4 inline setup, they are no less the attention getter than the 6pk and just as powerful, but a bit harder to tune (without the wide band sensor setup). Manifolds too, have to be optimized to the overall combo.

Posted By: 62maxwgn

Re: Is a 6 Pack worth the money and trouble? - 12/23/12 01:43 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

It really comes down to personal taste and expectations

IMO people think this is best or worse based on gossip and B.S.
(Street/Strip wise its hard to top.)

I`ve run a 6bbl. since 1983, runs with the best of`em.
BUT,,,,,, I`m also sure I could go quicker with something else IF I put as much time/money into finding it.
How much faster is a new argument




I agree with this. I would have consider the 6pk setup for my car but if I make any changes since my car is from the Max Wedge era I would go with the crossram. A 6pk on a 63 Max Wedge era car just dont look right to me. Ron




with both quotes
A 6pk setup on a Max Wedge-era car is kinda functional for the times, but just wouldn't be a Max-Wedge. The two carbs and crossram intake is its' calling card. Both setups make for a excellent street/strip setup other than a well-tuned 4bbl setup. 6bbls work best with medium to heavyweight cars, while the Crossram setup works very well with medium to lightweight cars. As for a2x4 inline setup, they are no less the attention getter than the 6pk and just as powerful, but a bit harder to tune (without the wide band sensor setup). Manifolds too, have to be optimized to the overall combo.






If you can find a set of carbs with the center air idle speed screws instead of on the throttle shaft they are "very" easy to tune.

Attached picture 7514768-Picture633.jpg
Posted By: RoadRunnerJD

Re: Is a 6 Pack worth the money and trouble? - 12/23/12 06:27 AM

When I used to race my A12 Runner in the early 70's, it had over 13:1, big valves, a .626 lift cam, 4.88's, etc. I tried switching to an Edelbrock TM7 Tarantula intake, a 2" spacer and a Holley 850 DP for a while. It ran the same times and speed but did not get the hole shot my 6BBLs got...and just didn't have the same wow factor to me.

Attached picture 7515082-MIR10-27-2012(8R).jpg
Posted By: Mr.Yuck

Re: Is a 6 Pack worth the money and trouble? - 12/23/12 04:12 PM

Quote:

Quote:

haven't tried these yet but should be a simple, easy to tune alternative to a 6bbl.





Edelbrock 2x4 setup is less expensive than a 6 pack.




Yeah but it comes w/ 2 edelbrock carbs
Posted By: gdonovan

Re: Is a 6 Pack worth the money and trouble? - 12/23/12 04:13 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

haven't tried these yet but should be a simple, easy to tune alternative to a 6bbl.





Edelbrock 2x4 setup is less expensive than a 6 pack.




Yeah but it comes w/ 2 edelbrock carbs




That's a good thing! I'll take any you want to toss out ;-)
Posted By: lewtot184

Re: Is a 6 Pack worth the money and trouble? - 12/23/12 05:01 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

haven't tried these yet but should be a simple, easy to tune alternative to a 6bbl.





Edelbrock 2x4 setup is less expensive than a 6 pack.




Yeah but it comes w/ 2 edelbrock carbs


now, now! there's nothing wrong with afb's, .
Posted By: KillerBee

Re: Is a 6 Pack worth the money and trouble? - 12/23/12 05:58 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

haven't tried these yet but should be a simple, easy to tune alternative to a 6bbl.





Edelbrock 2x4 setup is less expensive than a 6 pack.




Yeah but it comes w/ 2 edelbrock carbs




That's a good thing! I'll take any you want to toss out ;-)




Too late gave mine to a chebbie guy.

Decided to try one years ago, bought a shiny new 1407 Edelbrock carb for my 440 4 speed Challenger replacing the strong running (but a little dirty looking) Holley 750dp carb it had on it.

The Edlbrock had a terrible stumble off idle and no where near the performance of the Holley.
Bought the Edelbrock tuning kit and spent hours trying to tune it.

Called Edelbrock tech line countless times, They had me doing all kinds of stuff including drilling out emulsion tubes, some improvement but the stumble never went completely away and still no where near the performance of the Holley.

The techs at Edelbrock were nice and helpful and even sent me parts to try for free but in the end they finally admitted these type carbs where NOT designed for performance big block Mopars...more for stock small block chebbies.

Pulled the Edelbrock carb (gave to a chebbie buddy) and replaced with the old Holley and the car ran perfect(and fast) again.

Still got the Edelbrock tuning kit somewhere.

Live and learn.

Attached picture 7515446-challistrip.jpg
Posted By: gdonovan

Re: Is a 6 Pack worth the money and trouble? - 12/23/12 06:34 PM

Quote:



The techs at Edelbrock were nice and helpful and even sent me parts to try for free but in the end they finally admitted these type carbs where NOT designed for performance big block Mopars...more for stock small block chebbies.






That is a ridiculous statement from the Edelbrock employee as a carburetor doesn't have a clue as to what is pulling a vacuum under it. Something was wrong with your carb, pure and simple.

I could give you a ride in my GTX as it will explosively break the tires loose by merely stabbing the gas pedal.

With either the 750 AFB (now on my Duster) I use to run, or the 900 CFM Thermoquad that is currently on it.

A great book to read about how Carters work-

http://www.amazon.com/Carter-Carburetors...rter+carburetor
Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms

Re: Is a 6 Pack worth the money and trouble? - 12/23/12 07:21 PM




Here's my take. If you want the ultimate "Wow" factor yank the 408 and drop in a GenII Hemi. Done!

IMO it's hard to beat an STR12 for a small block in terms of under hood glamor (EXPENSIVE!), but they can be a trial to find, install, and tune properly.

If you want the car to perform to it's limit you'll likely find the best way to get there is a single 4 barrel.

For vintage look I'd go with a Thermo-Quad, you don't need a Comp series unit either (they work great but are not very street friendly). For a more modern approach it's hard to beat a Holley 950 on a stroker small block with an aggressive cam profile.

Six packs are great dependable power makers as well (and if properly tuned) will perform with nearly anything, but it's a lot of extra expense and hardware to get to the same goal a 4 barrel can reach, plus, if you run a stock oval air cleaner a 4 barrel looks basically the same as a Six Barrel when all covered up, all that money and now it's all hidden, that goes double if you run a Shaker hood.

Dual 4's are sort of the same story, not really needed but if you like the look and don't mind the added expense you won't likely lose (unless you over carb the engine) or gain any performance over a well chosen single 4 setup.



Attached picture 7515570-hrdp_0802_48_z+homebuilt_heros+1969_dodge_dart_gt_engineSTR-12.jpg
Posted By: pishta

Re: Is a 6 Pack worth the money and trouble? - 12/24/12 01:57 AM

No
Posted By: DaytonaTurbo

Re: Is a 6 Pack worth the money and trouble? - 12/24/12 09:55 AM

Are paper 6 pack filters being reproed again or are nos ones still listing for 350 bucks?
Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms

Re: Is a 6 Pack worth the money and trouble? - 12/24/12 04:33 PM

Quote:

Are paper 6 pack filters being reproed again or are nos ones still listing for 350 bucks?





If you are talking about the orange round hole original style, no, not to my knowledge, athough they likely will make more eventually. And BTW, the $350.00 examples you commonly see offered are not typically NOS, they are remaining Fram reproductions, NOS (New OLD Stock from the early 70's) usually go for more than that.
Posted By: jbc426

Re: Is a 6 Pack worth the money and trouble? - 12/24/12 04:55 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Are paper 6 pack filters being reproed again or are nos ones still listing for 350 bucks?





If you are talking about the orange round hole original style, no, not to my knowledge, athough they likely will make more eventually. And BTW, the $350.00 examples you commonly see offered are not typically NOS, they are remaining Fram reproductions, NOS (New OLD Stock from the early 70's) usually go for more than that.




...and K&N has a nice filter that will outlast all of us.
Posted By: DusterMan

Re: Is a 6 Pack worth the money and trouble? - 12/24/12 05:26 PM

Quote:

The mechanical six pack Holley 2300 carbs were sold over the counter under the Direct Connection banner as "Racing" carbs. They were also used on Ford's during the '60's. It takes a bit of searching, but there are still a lot of nice sets out there, especially if you Google Ford set-ups.





Those carbs were 500 cc 2 bbl's with accelerator pumps. That is all I ran on 6pk setup in the late 70's and early 80's.
Posted By: 1_WILD_RT

Re: Is a 6 Pack worth the money and trouble? - 12/24/12 05:29 PM

Quote:

Quote:

The mechanical six pack Holley 2300 carbs were sold over the counter under the Direct Connection banner as "Racing" carbs. They were also used on Ford's during the '60's. It takes a bit of searching, but there are still a lot of nice sets out there, especially if you Google Ford set-ups.





Those carbs were 500 cc 2 bbl's with accelerator pumps. That is all I ran on 6pk setup in the late 70's and early 80's.




How do you make the Ford carbs fit a Mopar manifold?
Posted By: meepmeep70

Re: Is a 6 Pack worth the money and trouble? - 12/24/12 06:41 PM

you will love the 6pak,especially the kick in of the outboards! i love mine and wouldn't do it any different.
Posted By: lewtot184

Re: Is a 6 Pack worth the money and trouble? - 12/24/12 08:04 PM

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The mechanical six pack Holley 2300 carbs were sold over the counter under the Direct Connection banner as "Racing" carbs. They were also used on Ford's during the '60's. It takes a bit of searching, but there are still a lot of nice sets out there, especially if you Google Ford set-ups.





Those carbs were 500 cc 2 bbl's with accelerator pumps. That is all I ran on 6pk setup in the late 70's and early 80's.




How do you make the Ford carbs fit a Mopar manifold?


the mechanical end carbs were the same size throttle bores and venturi as the factory vacuums, definitely not the 500cfm aftermarket carbs. the ford carbs will bolt up but they were very small, like the mopar and chevy center carbs.
Posted By: 1_WILD_RT

Re: Is a 6 Pack worth the money and trouble? - 12/24/12 08:09 PM

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The mechanical six pack Holley 2300 carbs were sold over the counter under the Direct Connection banner as "Racing" carbs. They were also used on Ford's during the '60's. It takes a bit of searching, but there are still a lot of nice sets out there, especially if you Google Ford set-ups.





Those carbs were 500 cc 2 bbl's with accelerator pumps. That is all I ran on 6pk setup in the late 70's and early 80's.




How do you make the Ford carbs fit a Mopar manifold?


the mechanical end carbs were the same size throttle bores and venturi as the factory vacuums, definitely not the 500cfm aftermarket carbs. the ford carbs will bolt up but they were very small, like the mopar and chevy center carbs.




Actually since the Ford carbs all have metering blocks the rear carb won't fit... The center carb always has a metering block so that's not an issue & the front carb just protrudes an extra 3/4" but the rear carb will not fit....
Posted By: GTX MATT

Re: Is a 6 Pack worth the money and trouble? - 12/24/12 09:13 PM

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The techs at Edelbrock were nice and helpful and even sent me parts to try for free but in the end they finally admitted these type carbs where NOT designed for performance big block Mopars...more for stock small block chebbies.






That is a ridiculous statement from the Edelbrock employee as a carburetor doesn't have a clue as to what is pulling a vacuum under it. Something was wrong with your carb, pure and simple.

I could give you a ride in my GTX as it will explosively break the tires loose by merely stabbing the gas pedal.

With either the 750 AFB (now on my Duster) I use to run, or the 900 CFM Thermoquad that is currently on it.

A great book to read about how Carters work-

http://www.amazon.com/Carter-Carburetors...rter+carburetor





Is that 750 AFB a real Carter AFB, or an Edelbrock/Carter/Weber/ Abortion Four Barrel AFB?
Posted By: lewtot184

Re: Is a 6 Pack worth the money and trouble? - 12/24/12 10:27 PM

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The mechanical six pack Holley 2300 carbs were sold over the counter under the Direct Connection banner as "Racing" carbs. They were also used on Ford's during the '60's. It takes a bit of searching, but there are still a lot of nice sets out there, especially if you Google Ford set-ups.





Those carbs were 500 cc 2 bbl's with accelerator pumps. That is all I ran on 6pk setup in the late 70's and early 80's.




How do you make the Ford carbs fit a Mopar manifold?


the mechanical end carbs were the same size throttle bores and venturi as the factory vacuums, definitely not the 500cfm aftermarket carbs. the ford carbs will bolt up but they were very small, like the mopar and chevy center carbs.




Actually since the Ford carbs all have metering blocks the rear carb won't fit... The center carb always has a metering block so that's not an issue & the front carb just protrudes an extra 3/4" but the rear carb will not fit....


the ford carbs will bolt up because they use side pivot bowls; the same as 6-pak mechanicals.
Posted By: 1_WILD_RT

Re: Is a 6 Pack worth the money and trouble? - 12/24/12 10:52 PM

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Actually since the Ford carbs all have metering blocks the rear carb won't fit... The center carb always has a metering block so that's not an issue & the front carb just protrudes an extra 3/4" but the rear carb will not fit....




the ford carbs will bolt up because they use side pivot bowls; the same as 6-pak mechanicals.




Oh yeah.. Last Ford Tri-Power I played with was in the 70's.. I clearly remembered the metering plates.. Completely forgot the side pivot bowls...
Posted By: AARCONV

Re: Is a 6 Pack worth the money and trouble? - 12/24/12 10:56 PM

i love it on my 340, but that air cleaner covers it all up when you open the hood..if you notice the pictures shown... some with and some with out...people notice when its out...well at least to those non mopar people...
Posted By: lewtot184

Re: Is a 6 Pack worth the money and trouble? - 12/24/12 11:42 PM

kinda surprised that the corvette carbs haven't been brought up,.... .
Posted By: DaytonaTurbo

Re: Is a 6 Pack worth the money and trouble? - 12/25/12 10:48 PM

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Are paper 6 pack filters being reproed again or are nos ones still listing for 350 bucks?





If you are talking about the orange round hole original style, no, not to my knowledge, athough they likely will make more eventually. And BTW, the $350.00 examples you commonly see offered are not typically NOS, they are remaining Fram reproductions, NOS (New OLD Stock from the early 70's) usually go for more than that.




...and K&N has a nice filter that will outlast all of us.




If you like your engine gulping in dirt sure. Would have to pay me to put on of those on my engine.
Posted By: moparclown

Re: Is a 6 Pack worth the money and trouble? - 12/26/12 12:44 AM

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Here's my take. If you want the ultimate "Wow" factor yank the 408 and drop in a GenII Hemi. Done!

IMO it's hard to beat an STR12 for a small block in terms of under hood glamor (EXPENSIVE!), but they can be a trial to find, install, and tune properly.

If you want the car to perform to it's limit you'll likely find the best way to get there is a single 4 barrel.

For vintage look I'd go with a Thermo-Quad, you don't need a Comp series unit either (they work great but are not very street friendly). For a more modern approach it's hard to beat a Holley 950 on a stroker small block with an aggressive cam profile.

Six packs are great dependable power makers as well (and if properly tuned) will perform with nearly anything, but it's a lot of extra expense and hardware to get to the same goal a 4 barrel can reach, plus, if you run a stock oval air cleaner a 4 barrel looks basically the same as a Six Barrel when all covered up, all that money and now it's all hidden, that goes double if you run a Shaker hood.

Dual 4's are sort of the same story, not really needed but if you like the look and don't mind the added expense you won't likely lose (unless you over carb the engine) or gain any performance over a well chosen single 4 setup.





Almost thought you were refering to my car for a moment as I pulled the STR12 off and installed a 950hp Holley on a hand ported M1.I have only run the 950 on the street so far but will see if I gained anything in the spring when the dragstrip opens.I do Miss the WOW factor of that crossram and I had absolutely no issues with it.
I also installed an Indy Mod man intake on a car I am building for a friend on his stroker small block with the magnum heads.But have not been able to try it out yet as the car is in pieces at the bodyshop being painted.He also bought the single 4bbl top plate for the intake if the 2 4bbl combo doesn't work out.

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Posted By: jbc426

Re: Is a 6 Pack worth the money and trouble? - 12/26/12 01:49 AM

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I like the build you're doing. I went a similar route on my build except on a big block. The six pack I'm running has the manifold deep ported and uses the mechanical secondary carbs. They all have accelerator pumps. I don't really like the feel of the vacuum secondary style of carbs, but that's a preference thing.

The six pack gives the motor a Dr Jekyle & Mr Hyde type of personality, mild mannered with decent mileage while on the center carb, and brutal power and acceleration when the outboards are tipped in.

When the unknowing ask to go for a ride in my car, I innocently lull them into relaxing by driving smooth and normal on the center carb. Right when they are all relaxed and not expecting it, I tip in the outboards, the motor changes personality with a sinister, Mr Hyde-like roar, their legs and arms lock to brace themselves as their eyes get as big as silver dollars. 700 hp will do that too you.

As soon as I go back on the center carb, they all seem to have a smile on their face that outlasts the ride home. It's the little things in life that make me smile these days.

When the motor was being dynoed, I had them test it with a big 4 barrel, the six pack was a bit stronger in the mid-range , and the single 4 eeked out a handful more hp at high rpm.

For me, my car would be bit less fun to drive and not as street friendly without a six pax on it.




Thanks! There has been some thought put into it for sure. I like the idea of using mechanical secondary's and accelerator pumps on each one. More info please. So far the six pack is winning this debate!




The mechanical six pack Holley 2300 carbs were sold over the counter under the Direct Connection banner as "Racing" carbs. They were also used on Ford's during the '60's. It takes a bit of searching, but there are still a lot of nice sets out there, especially if you Google Ford set-ups.

Hughes Engines deep ported the intake and stage 2 ported my Indy EZ's. I picked up a very nice heim-joint linkage set-up from Ben at ProMax. I used a wide band to tune them, which makes it relatively easy to get them virtually spot on in no time.

Here's a pic of the linkage, and an old fuel line I had made up. I've since gone to three individual fuel lines. Notice the fuel feed is on the opposite side, as the float bowls are side hung.




They were actually only offered through Direct Connection andd through some speed shops about 20 or more years ago.

The Holley list numbers for the mechanical carbs are Center = #4782 and Outboards = #4783

I stand corrected about the availability of the carbs through Ford collectors, but there is some interesting history surrounding early Ford Tripower set-ups that I found on the net.

"In the 1969-70 period, Ford developed the 6V intakes for the 351C, 429 and BOSS429. Ford made a determination that NASCAR rules had no restrictions on using a 3x2 intake, so they embarked on a development program around their current 351C engine called the NASCAR 366 Program. The historical background on the NASCAR 366 Engine and 429SCJ 6V and BOSS429 6V, was shared with me by Tom Vaught of Ford Motor Company.15 They designed and built 500 366 engines plus 6V intakes and went to Holley to develop a set of carburetors for the program. They used a set of List 4782/4783 vacuum secondary carburetors for the motor. During the testing, it was determined that the 1355cfm size of the carburetion was too much for the size of the motor, so Holley sleeved these carburetors to reduce the airflow. Once the testing was done, Ford presented the planned engine and carburetor package to NASCAR for approval. In preparing for this, Ford actually produced 500 Ford 366 engines; each equipped with the new alum Buddy Bar Casting 3x2 intake manifolds and sleeved Holley 4782/4783 carburetors. Unfortunately, NASCAR said “No” to Ford who immediately ordered the destruction of all 500 of the NASCAR 366 engines, 3x2 intakes and the specially built Holley sleeved 6V carburetors . Over the course of a week, Ford employees physically destroyed these pieces of performance history. Fortunately for the few lucky current owners of 351C 6V intakes, a few brand new bare 6V intakes
which were hiding away in engineering spaces escaped the sledge hammers and are around today. As for the sleeved Holley 2300 carbs, a very few still exist, carefully held by people who knew the value of these special pieces. Recently, a Ford 429SCJ 6V intake manifold held by a person connected to Buddy Bar Casting in Los Angeles was purchased and with it came a single sleeved Holley 6V carb. They are very rare.
After the decision to eliminate the 366 program, Ford advised Holley they were no longer interested in the Ford/Holley developed List 4782/4783 2300 6V carbs, so Holley contacted General Motors to see if they were interested in these carbs. They told Holley “No,” so Holley offered them to MOPAR who jumped at the chance. Holley made some changes to the carbs, converting them from vacuum secondary to full mechanical with full metering plates, which were thereafter offered as competition carburetors to MOPAR owners who wanted a little more performance out of their SixPack equipped 340 and 440 motors. Edelbrock produced a set of mechanical-progressive linkage along with a fuel log for these carburetors and the overall package allowed any MOPAR SixPac owner to get rid of his vacuum secondary carburetion and convert to full mechanical progressive 3x2 carbs which flowed a total of 1355cfm."
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Is a 6 Pack worth the money and trouble? - 12/26/12 01:54 AM

NO
They are a PIA
Want a 600 HP stroker Big Block? Take the 4 barrel off a 700 HP Big block and replace with a Six Pack.
Six packs may look real good on a National Winning NHRA car but in real life any dyno operator will tell you they are old school mystic BS. On a stock 440 they sound good and are fun but that goes out the window when you really want to make real modern day power levels--ok ok there are you that will point to some folks making great hp with so and so but honest the cfm deal is BS--distribution stinks, intake volume is nothing to get excited about--that is KEY to making big power--A Six Pack is a legend, and like most they are never really what they are supposed to be--Elvis is an exception--I saw that cat and he was AMAZING! I had a 500 inch pump gas Eddy headed with Max porting--custom solid roller yadda yadda, that engine would not make over 600 HP on the dyno to save my life--modded the six pack for days--put a real carb and intake on it and you get my first line in this post.
They look cool but cause more PIA than ex wives. Yea they moan about like one but....
Posted By: gdonovan

Re: Is a 6 Pack worth the money and trouble? - 12/26/12 02:45 AM

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Almost thought you were refering to my car for a moment as I pulled the STR12 off and installed a 950hp Holley on a hand ported M1.




I had not one but TWO STR-12 intakes back in the day, never did get around to running them and sold both.

Odds are they flowed poor (I have seen reports of engines with and without Max Wedge intakes for example picking up buckets of power going to modern intakes) but man do they look sweet when you pop the hood!

Nothing like two carbs on a crossram!
Posted By: moparcanuk

Re: Is a 6 Pack worth the money and trouble? - 12/26/12 04:44 AM

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I am at the final stages of my engine build and it is now time to pick my Intake and carb setup. I am leaning toward the Indy Mod Man Six Pack setup. I have no experience with these so I need some advice. I have read mixed reviews so I need to know if the cool factor of having a six pack under the hood is worth it and also want to make sure that they live up to their legend of being great performers. This is a magnum motor 360. Build list is as follows:

408
Block was honed with Torque Plates
Align Honed
Square Deck
Scat Forged Crank
Scat Forged I Beam Rods
AutoTec Forged pistons
Eddie Heads fully ported
2.08 Ferrea Competition Plus intake valves 5/16'' stem
1.60 Ferrea Competition Plus exhaust valves 5/16'' stem
C.H.E. Precision valve guides
T&D shaft mount roller rockers 1.6
Crower Lifters
Innovators West Damper
Moroso Oil Pan




So, what are ya gonna do?
Posted By: bill440rt

Re: Is a 6 Pack worth the money and trouble? - 12/26/12 05:06 AM

I've got a 6-pack setup from ProMax on my 440, with the tunable outboard carbs. Came pre-assembled & flow tested, I really didn't have to do much other than set the idle & mixture screws. It's been on there only about 2 years now. Car runs like an animal, but I think I could get even more out of it by further tuning the outboards.
This is my first 6-pack equipped big block & I've been happy with it.

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Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: Is a 6 Pack worth the money and trouble? - 12/26/12 06:52 AM

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NO
They are a PIA
Want a 600 HP stroker Big Block? Take the 4 barrel off a 700 HP Big block and replace with a Six Pack.
Six packs may look real good on a National Winning NHRA car but in real life any dyno operator will tell you they are old school mystic BS. On a stock 440 they sound good and are fun but that goes out the window when you really want to make real modern day power levels--ok ok there are you that will point to some folks making great hp with so and so but honest the cfm deal is BS--distribution stinks, intake volume is nothing to get excited about--that is KEY to making big power--A Six Pack is a legend, and like most they are never really what they are supposed to be--Elvis is an exception--I saw that cat and he was AMAZING! I had a 500 inch pump gas Eddy headed with Max porting--custom solid roller yadda yadda, that engine would not make over 600 HP on the dyno to save my life--modded the six pack for days--put a real carb and intake on it and you get my first line in this post.
They look cool but cause more PIA than ex wives. Yea they moan about like one but....


Like most things most people can't make work easily the stock type Moapr sixpaks can be made to work very well There are many cases in print of individual who tried to make a sixpak work and failed, therefore all six paks are no good,(don't forget that the people doing the work are writers) Baloney Sauce I've seen many instances of real racers swapping from a single four barrel to a stock type decently prepared sixpak and going faster with the sixpaks I've done some engine dyno testing with a stock type low deck Eddy six pak dual plane intake and stock type 1970 and 71 vacume carbs., jetted on the dyno the sixpak made 5 more HP and the exact same torque as Holley List # 9375 1050 Dominator on a single plane 4500 intake with a high dollar Wilson manifold 2 inch high reversion spacer. I've also spent more than one hour working on the sixpak setup to max it out My 3450 lb car with a pump gas low deck 518 C.I. stroker with the sixpak has gone low tens at 128 MPH through the mufflers with the junk K&N air filter on it My car did run faster with a single Holley 1050 Domaintor after I put a set of Indy M.W. SR heads on it with there 400-3 intake, the SR heads flow 30 CFM more than the CNC ported Eddy RPM did More air into most Mopar V8 means Mopower
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Is a 6 Pack worth the money and trouble? - 12/26/12 03:44 PM

I was really aiming to answer original question--is 6 pk worth time/$/trouble
In my opinion the carbs being sold these days are lacking in quality control, linkage kits on inter galactic back order and very high $$, same on fuel line kits, diaphram kits etc. Digging into new carbs to access adjustments etc all add up to a pain and lots of loot. I admit in the hands of a seasoned 6 Pk man they do work fine as , as I mentioned the many NHRA cars that just plain Run!
Are they worth the effort --I was voting no.
Customer walks in, I want a 6 Pk--oh boy, there goes lots more time that we will not get paid for.
Any man that owns a good one is a happy camper, all I was saying is that is rains alot in the 6 Pack Campground.
Posted By: lewtot184

Re: Is a 6 Pack worth the money and trouble? - 12/26/12 05:40 PM

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I was really aiming to answer original question--is 6 pk worth time/$/trouble
In my opinion the carbs being sold these days are lacking in quality control, linkage kits on inter galactic back order and very high $$, same on fuel line kits, diaphram kits etc. Digging into new carbs to access adjustments etc all add up to a pain and lots of loot. I admit in the hands of a seasoned 6 Pk man they do work fine as , as I mentioned the many NHRA cars that just plain Run!
Are they worth the effort --I was voting no.
Customer walks in, I want a 6 Pk--oh boy, there goes lots more time that we will not get paid for.
Any man that owns a good one is a happy camper, all I was saying is that is rains alot in the 6 Pack Campground.


sounds like you don't know how to tune them so you just rain on the parade.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Is a 6 Pack worth the money and trouble? - 12/26/12 05:44 PM

I can admit that!
Look up current price of a linkage kit--Tell me that looks like a good deal.
Posted By: 62maxwgn

Re: Is a 6 Pack worth the money and trouble? - 12/26/12 07:00 PM

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I can admit that!
Look up current price of a linkage kit--Tell me that looks like a good deal.




Most anyone with limited skills can make what you need.

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Posted By: 62maxwgn

Re: Is a 6 Pack worth the money and trouble? - 12/26/12 07:05 PM

And diaphragms are not a big deal either.

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Posted By: lewtot184

Re: Is a 6 Pack worth the money and trouble? - 12/27/12 01:20 AM

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I can admit that!
Look up current price of a linkage kit--Tell me that looks like a good deal.




Most anyone with limited skills can make what you need.


i used to make them back in the '80's before they started re-popping them.
Posted By: 95Kota408

Re: Is a 6 Pack worth the money and trouble? - 12/27/12 03:26 AM

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I am at the final stages of my engine build and it is now time to pick my Intake and carb setup. I am leaning toward the Indy Mod Man Six Pack setup. I have no experience with these so I need some advice. I have read mixed reviews so I need to know if the cool factor of having a six pack under the hood is worth it and also want to make sure that they live up to their legend of being great performers. This is a magnum motor 360. Build list is as follows:

408
Block was honed with Torque Plates
Align Honed
Square Deck
Scat Forged Crank
Scat Forged I Beam Rods
AutoTec Forged pistons
Eddie Heads fully ported
2.08 Ferrea Competition Plus intake valves 5/16'' stem
1.60 Ferrea Competition Plus exhaust valves 5/16'' stem
C.H.E. Precision valve guides
T&D shaft mount roller rockers 1.6
Crower Lifters
Innovators West Damper
Moroso Oil Pan




So, what are ya gonna do?




Not sure yet. I am leaning toward the six pack setup.
Posted By: Mr.Yuck

Re: Is a 6 Pack worth the money and trouble? - 12/27/12 02:05 PM

Quote:

NO
They are a PIA
Want a 600 HP stroker Big Block? Take the 4 barrel off a 700 HP Big block and replace with a Six Pack.
Six packs may look real good on a National Winning NHRA car but in real life any dyno operator will tell you they are old school mystic BS. On a stock 440 they sound good and are fun but that goes out the window when you really want to make real modern day power levels--ok ok there are you that will point to some folks making great hp with so and so but honest the cfm deal is BS--distribution stinks, intake volume is nothing to get excited about--that is KEY to making big power--A Six Pack is a legend, and like most they are never really what they are supposed to be--Elvis is an exception--I saw that cat and he was AMAZING! I had a 500 inch pump gas Eddy headed with Max porting--custom solid roller yadda yadda, that engine would not make over 600 HP on the dyno to save my life--modded the six pack for days--put a real carb and intake on it and you get my first line in this post.
They look cool but cause more PIA than ex wives. Yea they moan about like one but....




while I'm not going to argue that a 4bbl can make power I will say that your 10hp loss is kinda funny. They aren't hard to tune, even w/o aftermarket parts. They can make well over 600hp and we have some 9 second guys running six-packs. Would it be the set-up I'd run for all out racing? NO, but neither would an Eddy 2x4 set-up.
Posted By: moparclown

Re: Is a 6 Pack worth the money and trouble? - 12/28/12 01:10 AM

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Almost thought you were refering to my car for a moment as I pulled the STR12 off and installed a 950hp Holley on a hand ported M1.




I had not one but TWO STR-12 intakes back in the day, never did get around to running them and sold both.

Odds are they flowed poor (I have seen reports of engines with and without Max Wedge intakes for example picking up buckets of power going to modern intakes) but man do they look sweet when you pop the hood!

Nothing like two carbs on a crossram!




I had a second one that was polished out like chrome but had to sell it to pay the mortgage and I find that most people that have had these intakes never ran them.
I hope that the OP makes his own decision on this as many here posted refering to a six pac on a BB and not a SB.If I had listened to every naysayer about the STR12 I probably wouldn't have bought one and that would have been a huge loss as I enjoy mine and will be putting it back on in the near future.And it also put me in the final round at Musclepalooza,which was only my second time running at a dragstrip.My car will probably be a little bit quicker with the single 4 but at the track its not the fastest car that wins,but the car that runs consistant numbers.
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