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How can I tell if this used 440 overheated?

Posted By: davidcwhitney

How can I tell if this used 440 overheated? - 11/17/08 07:20 PM

1978 440-7, bought used, no reliable history. Photos help tell the story: http://picasaweb.google.com/cat.etal/OilPanCamLifters#

I've never been able to turn this engine by hand. Removed intake and found half the lifters frozen in their bores. Applied rust remover and waited. They came out.

Debris around lifters looks like rust flakes from intake manifold and crossover (see photos). Oil pan has dried-up sludge puddle (see photo). Pickup tube screen is clear (photo). Oil pump and filter not present. Valve springs, seals okay, no rocker arm galling. Don't have old plugs to study.

There is very little oil in this engine, helping to account for the rusted-in-bore lifters. If it didn't run out of oil while running, it was drained well and sat for God knows how long.

Heads are still on. I suspect rusted piston rings and have applied brake fluid to one side and leveled that cylinder bank for even distribution. I hope to see brake fluid dripping out from all four cylinders soon, then do other side, bang on block and try to turn again.

Questions: What is the telltale sign of overheating to look for before or during teardown? Any other suggestions for freeing what I believe is a mildly stuck engine?

Thanks,

David
Posted By: 70dart360

Re: How can I tell if this used 440 overheated? - 11/17/08 07:23 PM

Sounds like it wasnt maintained right with the sludge and all. If the lifters are rusted in the bores and it wont spin over, I think whether it ran hot or not is the least of your worries.
Posted By: JohnRR

Re: How can I tell if this used 440 overheated? - 11/17/08 07:59 PM

Quote:

Sounds like it wasnt maintained right with the sludge and all. If the lifters are rusted in the bores and it wont spin over, I think whether it ran hot or not is the least of your worries.



EXACTLY , it needs to be rebuilt
Posted By: screamindriver

Re: How can I tell if this used 440 overheated? - 11/17/08 08:08 PM

Quote:


Any other suggestions for freeing what I believe is a mildly stuck engine?

Thanks,

David

Here's an option that looks to be a good solution...Have'nt tried it yet but I will if need be... the old molasses trick..
Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: How can I tell if this used 440 overheated? - 11/17/08 09:31 PM

I would strip it(without doing any damage) bake it clean then see what what it looks like.
Posted By: JohnRR

Re: How can I tell if this used 440 overheated? - 11/17/08 10:23 PM

Quote:

Quote:


Any other suggestions for freeing what I believe is a mildly stuck engine?

Thanks,

David

Here's an option that looks to be a good solution...Have'nt tried it yet but I will if need be... the old molasses trick..



That's messy , I tried it on some small stuff , I didn't see the part about heating the mixture so it didn't work that well , definitely not something to dry when it's HOT

Have you pulled the heads ? If the bores are heavily rusted it may not be worth the effort. I have a 400 block that I got unstuck , it needs 3 sleeves because of rust pitting , when I removed the heads my feet got wet .

I set the engine so one bank was pointing up with the heads off , filled the cylinders with PB blaster , a week each bank , then i put a long bar on the crank bolt and rapped the top of as many pistons as i could reach wit ha 2 lb brass hammer , and rocked the crank back and forth , took about an hour , spraying in more PB , finally got it to rotate over , in total the block needs 5 sleeves between pitting and core shift .

It makes a lovely door stop at the moment .
Posted By: JohnRR

Re: How can I tell if this used 440 overheated? - 11/17/08 10:25 PM

I just looked at the pictures , that should unstick easy , PULL THE HEADS .
Posted By: 2cudabuck

Re: How can I tell if this used 440 overheated? - 11/17/08 10:47 PM

I have salvaged engines that looked MUCH worse in the galley.
Posted By: davidcwhitney

Re: How can I tell if this used 440 overheated? - 11/18/08 12:20 AM

Thanks for all the encouragement. I'm not keeping this engine anyway, so it's not the end of the world if it stays frozen. Just don't want to sell it at a frozen engine price if I don't have to.

I'll pull the heads and look at the cylinder walls, let you know what I see.

Meanwhile, I don't see any evidence of excess heat at the exhaust ports. Manifolds are not present, so can't look for cracks or discoloration there.

Obviously there would be valve train problems if it ran out of oil running, but the pushrods are all straight. There are no shavings or metal pieces in the oil pan. Would the chambers/cylinders/valve seats tell me anything about overheating?

I'm still under the impression this is an okay engine that got a little water inside it while dry.

Thanks,

David
Posted By: topside

Re: How can I tell if this used 440 overheated? - 11/18/08 03:49 AM

If it was really overheated, the head gaskets will show some bridging and if it got REALLY hot, the heads will show some warpage.
From what you're saying, it sounds like water got intot he engine when it was lying around.
If it was run with blown head gaskets the oil will be milky. If the water & oil are separated and the oil is dark, I'd say the water was introduced later, most likely from sitting neglected.
Pay attention to fastener torque as you disassemble, look at the bearings & journals, and you should have a good idea how much of a beating and/or maintenance the thing received.
Posted By: davidcwhitney

Re: How can I tell if this used 440 overheated? - 11/19/08 01:36 AM

I pulled the odd side head and found what I expected -- #3 cylinder rusted to the wall and maybe #3 valves rusted in heads. See photos.

http://picasaweb.google.com/cat.etal/78440OddSideHead#

Most of it looks pretty good if you can see past the carbon deposits. All the cylinders but #3 drained brake fluid past the rings. I'm ready to try a longer soak and see how it goes.

I've heard brake fluid, diesel oil, Marvel Mystery Oil, trans fluid and vinegar. Any other rust eating suggestions?

Thanks,

David
Posted By: JohnRR

Re: How can I tell if this used 440 overheated? - 11/19/08 01:40 AM

the fluid you are putting in is probably running around the ring gaps , put a bar on it and the piston tops
Posted By: A38s!

Re: How can I tell if this used 440 overheated? - 11/19/08 02:07 AM

What does the pad read? Looks n51 to me.
Posted By: davidcwhitney

Re: How can I tell if this used 440 overheated? - 11/19/08 04:50 PM

Pad reads:

T440 E
5 11 2 [Maltese cross] X

I'm not sure about N51 -- I think that was an earlier year option. I have read these truck 440 blocks have "figure 8" passages for better cooling.

Happy motoring,

David
Posted By: JohnRR

Re: How can I tell if this used 440 overheated? - 11/19/08 05:21 PM

Quote:

Pad reads:

T440 E
5 11 2 [Maltese cross] X

I'm not sure about N51 -- I think that was an earlier year option. I have read these truck 440 blocks have "figure 8" passages for better cooling.

Happy motoring,

David



there should be a number before the T , it's a late model cast crank motor , worth maybe 200 bucks
Posted By: davidcwhitney

Re: How can I tell if this used 440 overheated? - 11/20/08 12:20 AM

Yes, I know it's a late model cast crank motor.

Surprise, surprise! Pistons have "30" stamped on them, so it's been rebuilt at least once.

#2 cylinder also has rust on the outer wall. It looks like #2 and #3 had standing water in them for a time, but not the end of the world. I'm soaking now and will bang on the pistons tomorrow to see if I can coax the motor to turn. Then I might get 250 for it.

Overheating and running out of oil have been scratched off the list of problems.

Thanks for the help and happy motoring,

David
Posted By: Kirk_Ingram

Re: How can I tell if this used 440 overheated? - 11/20/08 05:17 AM

Quote:

Then I might get 250 for it.

Overheating and running out of oil have been scratched off the list of problems.



Oooo, Ooo, can I be first on the list to buy it???
I've always wanted a .030" over 440 that has been mediacally diagnosed over the internet to never have overheated, or been run out of oil. And stuck piston rings are a bonus!!
Please Please!





Posted By: JohnRR

Re: How can I tell if this used 440 overheated? - 11/20/08 12:56 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Then I might get 250 for it.

Overheating and running out of oil have been scratched off the list of problems.



Oooo, Ooo, can I be first on the list to buy it???
I've always wanted a .030" over 440 that has been mediacally diagnosed over the internet to never have overheated, or been run out of oil. And stuck piston rings are a bonus!!
Please Please!











like it having RUSTY bores and already bored .030 is a good thing
Posted By: A38s!

Re: How can I tell if this used 440 overheated? - 11/20/08 04:57 PM

Quote:

Pad reads:

T440 E
5 11 2 [Maltese cross] X

I'm not sure about N51 -- I think that was an earlier year option. I have read these truck 440 blocks have "figure 8" passages for better cooling.

Happy motoring,

David



You could get n51 through 78. But alas, not a HP. I'd say if you can get $250. Sounds like alot of putzing around.

Happy Motoring to you!
Posted By: JohnRR

Re: How can I tell if this used 440 overheated? - 11/20/08 05:01 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Pad reads:

T440 E
5 11 2 [Maltese cross] X

I'm not sure about N51 -- I think that was an earlier year option. I have read these truck 440 blocks have "figure 8" passages for better cooling.

Happy motoring,

David



You could get n51 through 78. But alas, not a HP. I'd say if you can get $250. Sounds like alot of putzing around.

Happy Motoring to you!



I'm still trying to figure out where someone saw N51 STAMPED on this engine
Posted By: A38s!

Re: How can I tell if this used 440 overheated? - 11/20/08 05:06 PM

No stamping. Looking at the block.
Posted By: JohnRR

Re: How can I tell if this used 440 overheated? - 11/20/08 05:07 PM

Quote:

No stamping. Looking at the block.



but you said this earlier

Quote:

What does the pad read? Looks n51 to me.



that's what confused me , that would never be stamped on the block .

just sayin'
Posted By: A38s!

Re: How can I tell if this used 440 overheated? - 11/20/08 05:17 PM

I gotcha. Saw the big jackets, thinking it might be a cop motor.
Posted By: JohnRR

Re: How can I tell if this used 440 overheated? - 11/20/08 05:18 PM

Quote:

I gotcha. Saw the big jackets, thinking it might be a cop motor.



nothing different about a cop motor block , those those figure 8 water passages are on all the later BB , RB and B , that one don't even have the extra pairs of holes between the lower row of head bolts for each cylinder that certian 452's , the ones with peanut plugs that people claim were used on cop motors , would have ???



Posted By: A38s!

Re: How can I tell if this used 440 overheated? - 11/20/08 05:35 PM

Quote:

those those figure 8 water passages are on all the later BB , RB and B , that one don't even have the extra pairs of holes between the lower row of head bolts for each cylinder that certian 452's , the ones with peanut plugs that people claim were used on cop motors , would have ???







Point taken. Got bug eyes, and didn't look at the bottoms. Wha-waa-waaa.

I've never been able to substantiate that 452s with plugs were 'cop'. I need some hard proof.
Posted By: davidcwhitney

Re: How can I tell if this used 440 overheated? - 11/20/08 06:02 PM

An overnight vinegar soak made the two cylinders clean as a hound's tooth. Looked at the bottom end and nothing seems amiss. Engine now budges a little, but cylinder walls are nearly bone dry. I'm doing a lubrication soak and will suck out grit to the best of my ability before trying to turn it some more.

FYI, carb to pan 440 cores go for between 500 and 600 here. I have bought three and sold three in the past three years and never had difficulty on craigslist. A 383 can be had for around 300.

Will continue and let you know.

Happy motoring,

David
Posted By: A38s!

Re: How can I tell if this used 440 overheated? - 11/21/08 02:50 AM

. PM me where, and I'll send out a few. I was getting $700 for complete rebuilder 440s. Guy is crating Mopar stuff to Taiwan from the IE... A little flaky, though.
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