Why the epidemic of failed new cams?

Posted By: Commando1

Why the epidemic of failed new cams? - 09/20/12 02:17 PM

I don't know if it's because I'm getting older and the stories are just accumulating or if there really has been an extreme epidemic of new cams getting wiped before the 2k mile mark.

I've heard all the stories.
Crap used in the Chinese forgings.
Companies becoming the Walmart of valve trains and skipping on QA/QC.
Oil formulation changes in the last few years for the worse.
Plus the eternal ever standard: "did ya break it in properly?".

It's happening in all the engines, from garage builds to pro builds.

I wish ASTM would do a comprehensive study on this but that ain't gonna happen.

The podium is now open....

Posted By: 440newport

Re: Why the epidemic of failed new cams? - 09/20/12 02:32 PM

I don't think it's as bad as at used to be say, a few years ago but you still hear about it.

I think the biggest reason was the new oil formulations that took the zinc and other things out of oil that flat tappet cams need. Most people in the hobby know about it by now, but it took a while for the average guy to realize that you can't just grab any old 10W-30 off the shelf to break in a cam anymore.

There was also word of a bad batch of mopar lifters floating around a few years back. Many people say Johnson made/make the best quality lifters but I think they were out of buisness for a while, so we probably had a lot of soft Chinese junk out there repackaged as many different brands.

Posted By: JohnRR

Re: Why the epidemic of failed new cams? - 09/20/12 03:28 PM

Quote:

There was also word of a bad batch of mopar lifters floating around a few years back. Many people say Johnson made/make the best quality lifters but I think they were out of buisness for a while, so we probably had a lot of soft Chinese junk out there repackaged as many different brands.

The story I heard it wasn't just Mopar, it was across the board. I don't know the name of the company but one of remaining 2 or 3 makers went belly up and the company that came in to sell off the remains saw loads of lifters that didn't pass inspection and SOLD them off as good. Its takenn a number of years for those lifters to make it thru the systems ...

Posted By: astjp2

Re: Why the epidemic of failed new cams? - 09/20/12 04:20 PM

The Dello diesel oil has the right amount of ZDDP in it for breaking in a cam, it should still be around 1500ppm, much less and you wipe out a cam lobe because it lacks the anti skuffing compound. Also most people are not checking for lifter rotation before starting, some of the lifters were slightly oversize and do not rotate in the bore, a small ball hone fixes that problem. Tim

Posted By: Commando1

Re: Why the epidemic of failed new cams? - 09/20/12 06:41 PM

Quote:

I don't know the name of the company but one of remaining 2 or 3 makers went belly up and the company that came in to sell off the remains saw loads of lifters that didn't pass inspection and SOLD them off as good.

Bain Capital?

J/K

Posted By: JohnRR

Re: Why the epidemic of failed new cams? - 09/20/12 07:20 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I don't know the name of the company but one of remaining 2 or 3 makers went belly up and the company that came in to sell off the remains saw loads of lifters that didn't pass inspection and SOLD them off as good.

Bain Capital?
J/K

Didn't Bain buy struggling companies and not companies that folded ?

Posted By: lewtot184

Re: Why the epidemic of failed new cams? - 09/20/12 07:42 PM

eaton quit making flat tappets, johnson went out of business and the only people left were stanadyne, the worst in the business. i also think that people wanting very agressive lobes, especially hydraulic flat tappet, to use in production blocks was a factor. the oil thing was probably the "cherry" on top the sundae.

Posted By: DaytonaTurbo

Re: Why the epidemic of failed new cams? - 09/20/12 09:08 PM

People using crap oils during break-in.

People not follow break-in procedures properly.

Modern cams have much more aggressive lobes than the lazy cams of yesteryear.

Posted By: Challenger 1

Re: Why the epidemic of failed new cams? - 09/20/12 09:11 PM

I often wonder when I read about these failures if they are sometimes caused by improper setup. Wrong lash or preload.
It seems a lot of people screw that up and then blame everything but themselves?

Posted By: dogdays

Re: Why the epidemic of failed new cams? - 09/20/12 09:48 PM

Hasn't this issue been beaten TO DEATH?
BTW, cast iron cams are used for flat tappets.
R.

Posted By: kloyiod

Re: Why the epidemic of failed new cams? - 09/20/12 10:20 PM

If your wiping a cam, your using the wrong company cause they won't back their product! I've never had a problem. http://www.hughesengines.com/TechArticles/ourcamsareguaranteednottogoflat.php

Posted By: Junky

Re: Why the epidemic of failed new cams? - 09/21/12 01:02 AM

Quote:

People using crap oils during break-in.

People not follow break-in procedures properly.

Modern cams have much more aggressive lobes than the lazy cams of yesteryear.

Yeah, that.
About 2 years ago I installed my first cam, a Hughes cam. Learned how to do it from moparts.com. Went just fine for me.

Posted By: bobs66440

Re: Why the epidemic of failed new cams? - 09/21/12 01:12 PM

Quote:

Hasn't this issue been beaten TO DEATH?
BTW, cast iron cams are used for flat tappets.
R.

I don't think it's a bad idea to revisit these topics once in a while. It helps keep us updated on an ever changing subject and it makes it easier for guys (that this is a new problem to, like me) to get info on. I'm going through this right now (not a cam, but a lifter) and it's helpful (and sometimes confusing, lol) to get opinions...

Posted By: goldmember

Re: Why the epidemic of failed new cams? - 09/21/12 01:20 PM

I don't see the problem getting a flat tappet cam to live. I broke in a hyd flat last week and expect it to live a long life. MOST cam failures are due to installer error(NOT ALL!). Use a quality cam,lifters and oil and quit over thinking it.

Posted By: Commando1

Re: Why the epidemic of failed new cams? - 09/22/12 01:34 PM

Quote:

Hasn't this issue been beaten TO DEATH?
BTW, cast iron cams are used for flat tappets.
R.

Well, then, I don't want to see any more:
1. How good is a 440 Source (fill in the blank)...
2. Best rear main seal?...
3. Help! I have a bog in my carb coming off idle...
4. Edelbrock or Holley?

Posted By: bobs66440

Re: Why the epidemic of failed new cams? - 09/22/12 02:04 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Hasn't this issue been beaten TO DEATH?
BTW, cast iron cams are used for flat tappets.
R.

Well, then, I don't want to see any more:
1. How good is a 440 Source (fill in the blank)...
2. Best rear main seal?...
3. Help! I have a bog in my carb coming off idle...
4. Edelbrock or Holley?

Exactly. Part of the reason for this forum is to help people with problems. That means revisiting popular topics now and then...

Posted By: Exit1965

Re: Why the epidemic of failed new cams? - 09/22/12 07:07 PM

This topic is one of those with varying strong opinions either way, and the tough part is, there is no data (that I'm aware of) to say
a) how many cams die
b) how the above cams die

I have run 3 hydraulic flat tappet cams in over the past 5 years, all had survived. If I had one of them bite the dust I'd probably be on the extreme of "never using one again" and go with a roller instead.

The whole problem is probably overblown. The fact that it results in significant work to fix, makes doing things right even more important and may exaggerate how common it actually is.

Just because everyone takes very careful steps to avoid it, doesn't automatically mean it's guaranteed to fail if you don't do things exactly by the book.

Posted By: Mebsuta

Re: Why the epidemic of failed new cams? - 09/22/12 11:19 PM

How many of the traditional, now considered lazy lobe, camshafts have failed? That was what this old stuff was originally designed to use.

It kind of reminds me of AR-15 discussions. People thought they knew better than Gene Stoner and strayed away from the original design. They were not always successful.

Posted By: 1_WILD_RT

Re: Why the epidemic of failed new cams? - 09/22/12 11:43 PM

Quote:

If your wiping a cam, your using the wrong company cause they won't back their product! I've never had a problem. http://www.hughesengines.com/TechArticles/ourcamsareguaranteednottogoflat.php

Thats Damn Funny Right There.....

https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/show...part=1&vc=1

Posted By: Supercuda

Re: Why the epidemic of failed new cams? - 09/23/12 12:09 AM

Quote:

If your wiping a cam, your using the wrong company cause they won't back their product! I've never had a problem. http://www.hughesengines.com/TechArticles/ourcamsareguaranteednottogoflat.php

Hee hee, I read this and said "he must be new here", 9 posts, guess so.

Posted By: dogdays

Re: Why the epidemic of failed new cams? - 09/24/12 05:02 PM

To: Commando1
If none of those topics ever showed up again I would be ecstatic. So thank you for putting it into words.
R.

Posted By: BSB67

Re: Why the epidemic of failed new cams? - 09/25/12 02:16 AM

Quote:

To: Commando1
If none of those topics ever showed up again I would be ecstatic.

...to name a few....

Posted By: Commando1

Re: Why the epidemic of failed new cams? - 09/25/12 02:39 PM

Quote:

Quote:

To: Commando1
If none of those topics ever showed up again I would be ecstatic.

...to name a few....

Actually, I could come up with a list as long as your arm, BUT, I have asked a few questions in the past that probably seemed absolutely like rookie stuff to some, but guys came through and bailed out my sorry azz anyway. So.... to them I say Thank You and I try to remember there's no such thing as a stupid question.

Except for: "Is this a scam...."

Posted By: therocks

Re: Why the epidemic of failed new cams? - 09/25/12 06:01 PM

I agree most are from improper setup and down right neglect.Ive probally installed 20 in the past 12 years.Had 1 failure.The kid didnt want to seat the lifters,just installed and set the idle.Then he never changed the oil and ran it low after about 5000 miles.But it was the cams fault.I run either Kendall GT1 or Valvoline race oil.My radical solid is 14 years old and going strong.The sons 413 with Hughes cam is just as old and has more miles.Still like new.Rocky

Posted By: HotRodDave

Re: Why the epidemic of failed new cams? - 09/25/12 06:14 PM

I have never had one fail and have built lots of flat tappet engines. I ALWAYS make sure the lifters turn while I turn the engine. If I do not see one rotateing I pull it out and find the reason. Sometimes you have to polish the lifter body or scuff the face or something but they will rotate at hand turning speed.