Moparts
Break in oil
Posted By: elmor
Break in oil - 08/09/12 08:12 PM
Getting ready to fire up our 360. It's an 85 engine we did with new pistons, new flat tappet hydraulic cam. My question is the oil my brother put in is a diesel oil rated SL. I noticed after he poured it in the engine, that it is a synthetic blend. I used the Mopar cam assembly lube, which they tell me is great stuff. Should I have reason to worry about wiping the cam with this synthetic blend oil?
Posted By: terzmo
Re: Break in oil - 08/09/12 09:44 PM
hi zinc oil...
I use bradd penn...has a special breakin oil
Posted By: Von
Re: Break in oil - 08/09/12 10:25 PM
Personally I wouldnt use a syn blend oil on breakin.
Alot of guys do it without issues, but....
Id use Rotella and a bottle of Comp Cams or similar additive.
I go a little over board with my cam break ins. A local machine shop has oil that they had a local refinery formulate for them. It is chock full of zinc. I use their oil, and 2 bottles of SLOB.
https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=7324741Dumping the oil and saving it for something else will be a lot cheaper than rebuilding the engine.
Posted By: moparpollack
Re: Break in oil - 08/09/12 10:29 PM
Any oil with ZPPD there are only four. Joe Gibbs or Valvoline are the most common.
Posted By: RapidRobert
Re: Break in oil - 08/09/12 10:32 PM
synthetic is a no no for breakin unless the fact that it is a diesel syn and or a part syn blend makes it OK to use for breakin but I'd be doubtful but I'm not an oil guy & am going by what I know so far. I'd drain it & go with a proven performer like Bradd Penn & other proven brands. You've went to far to take a risk now
& after it's broken in & running strong you will have forgotten about the little bit of extra time/money it took to rectify this
Posted By: mikemee1331
Re: Break in oil - 08/09/12 10:37 PM
it's my understanding that diesel oils have the right amount of zinc in them. since i don't know that to be 100% true with a synthetic blend oil i would just get 2 bottles of Lucas breakin additive and one to the break in oil and the other after you change it. most auto parts stores have Lucas.
Posted By: bobs66440
Re: Break in oil - 08/09/12 10:37 PM
Brad Penn 30wt break in oil and Comp additive.
Posted By: Von
Re: Break in oil - 08/09/12 11:59 PM
Quote:
Bradd Penn
Cept Penn is a semisyn...
I called Total Seal and they told me no syn or semisyn for at least 800 miles..so 
Plenty of race motors come out of the box with Penn.
I was talking to a local machinist the other day he uses Mobil full syn on the skirts, rings when putting motors together.. 
So, flip, IDK. Id still play it safe and go with a full dino oil...
Posted By: Von
Re: Break in oil - 08/10/12 12:03 AM
Quote:
it's my understanding that diesel oils have the right amount of zinc in them. since i don't know that to be 100% true with a synthetic blend oil i would just get 2 bottles of Lucas breakin additive and one to the break in oil and the other after you change it. most auto parts stores have Lucas.
As far as the diesel oil, they or may not have enough zinc...If you have moderate to high spring pressure, probably not. Id still add a bottle of Comp, EOS, etc.
I know nothing about the Lucas break in oil. Id like to see a lab report on it. If its like the rest of the Lucas stuff...run...
EDIT. Found some info on the Lucas break in oil, looks to be good stuff.
Posted By: Beep Beep
Re: Break in oil - 08/10/12 12:04 AM
I used Joe Gibb's BR oil.
Posted By: moparpollack
Re: Break in oil - 08/10/12 01:13 AM
Quote:
Quote:
it's my understanding that diesel oils have the right amount of zinc in them. since i don't know that to be 100% true with a synthetic blend oil i would just get 2 bottles of Lucas breakin additive and one to the break in oil and the other after you change it. most auto parts stores have Lucas.
As far as the diesel oil, they or may not have enough zinc...If you have moderate to high spring pressure, probably not. Id still add a bottle of Comp, EOS, etc.
I know nothing about the Lucas break in oil. Id like to see a lab report on it. If its like the rest of the Lucas stuff...run...
EDIT. Found some info on the Lucas break in oil, looks to be good stuff.
No zinc in any of the deisel oils since they put the cats on them since the zinc plugs them up.
Posted By: RapidRobert
Re: Break in oil - 08/10/12 02:35 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Bradd Penn
Cept Penn is a semisyn...
Didn't know that
Posted By: Von
Re: Break in oil - 08/10/12 02:23 PM
[quote
No zinc in any of the deisel oils since they put the cats on them since the zinc plugs them up.
What is your definition of "No zinc"
I just looked at some recent VOAs, DelVac, Rotella, Napa 15-40 all show over 1200ppm of Zinc. Not what I would call "No zinc"
The stuff doesnt have 1600 or so like it did 5 years ago, but considerably better than a SL-SN oil...
Posted By: 62maxwgn
Re: Break in oil - 08/10/12 02:28 PM
Quote:
[quote
No zinc in any of the deisel oils since they put the cats on them since the zinc plugs them up.
What is your definition of "No zinc"
I just looked at some recent VOAs, DelVac, Rotella, Napa 15-40 all show over 1200ppm of Zinc. Not what I would call "No zinc"
The stuff doesnt have 1600 or so like it did 5 years ago, but considerably better than a SL-SN oil...
You want Zinc!! 
But since you now know that oil needs zinc (zddp)for flat-tappet cams, especially during the initial break-in, keep in mind you can have too much in the oil too...so don't go overboard adding excess oil supplements to get the zinc levels up there. Too much zinc can be equally harmful.
Most decent speed shops will stock a zinc (ZDDP) additive that specifies how much should be mixed w/ what types/amount of oil....whether it is GM EOS or something similar.
I'd drain the oil, run a heavier wt diesel oil w/ the a ZDDP additive...makeing sure to prime it good and quickly before initial start up. Good luck!
Posted By: Triggerfish
Re: Break in oil - 08/10/12 04:44 PM
Posted By: dogdays
Re: Break in oil - 08/10/12 04:52 PM
Here goes nothing.....
You guys are deep into the More's Better theory.
You know, if some is good, more's better and too much is just right!
At least take the time to read the Joe Gibbs literature on Diesel oils. His point is, the extremely high detergent levels in the oil for diesel engines makes it harder for the ZDDP molecules to find a place to stick to. So you can have all the ZDDP in the world but if it can't find a surface, it doesn't do a lot of good.
Several years ago on this board a member detailed an experience with Diesel oils and lubrication failure on a new extremely high output engine. Most pooh-poohed the story, but he had no reason to lie about it. Maybe there is a hidden weakness in the Diesel formulations.
I think that the "use Diesel oil" theory is an article of faith among the believers and expect that its believers cling to the idea out of a religios fervor. Maybe it's time to open our eyes.
R.
Do yourself a favor and get some Brad Penn break in and be done with it. It works, has a crude oil base stock, and will not be any problem whatsoever being a semi synthetic. You dont NEED a dino oil to break an engine in...the internet can be a dangerous place....
Posted By: CHRGR69
Re: Break in oil - 08/10/12 06:48 PM
Comp Cam Break In
Posted By: Junky
Re: Break in oil - 08/10/12 07:22 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
it's my understanding that diesel oils have the right amount of zinc in them. since i don't know that to be 100% true with a synthetic blend oil i would just get 2 bottles of Lucas breakin additive and one to the break in oil and the other after you change it. most auto parts stores have Lucas.
As far as the diesel oil, they or may not have enough zinc...If you have moderate to high spring pressure, probably not. Id still add a bottle of Comp, EOS, etc.
I know nothing about the Lucas break in oil. Id like to see a lab report on it. If its like the rest of the Lucas stuff...run...
EDIT. Found some info on the Lucas break in oil, looks to be good stuff.
No zinc in any of the deisel oils since they put the cats on them since the zinc plugs them up.
Current heavy duty (diesel) oil has about 1200 ppm zinc...some a bit more, some a bit less. That amount is good for a stock engine. Modified engines need more due to spring pressures and such. Get your facts straight.
Posted By: mikemee1331
Re: Break in oil - 08/10/12 09:49 PM
Quote:
Here goes nothing.....
You guys are deep into the More's Better theory.
You know, if some is good, more's better and too much is just right!
At least take the time to read the Joe Gibbs literature on Diesel oils. His point is, the extremely high detergent levels in the oil for diesel engines makes it harder for the ZDDP molecules to find a place to stick to. So you can have all the ZDDP in the world but if it can't find a surface, it doesn't do a lot of good.
Several years ago on this board a member detailed an experience with Diesel oils and lubrication failure on a new extremely high output engine. Most pooh-poohed the story, but he had no reason to lie about it. Maybe there is a hidden weakness in the Diesel formulations.
I think that the "use Diesel oil" theory is an article of faith among the believers and expect that its believers cling to the idea out of a religios fervor. Maybe it's time to open our eyes.
R.
i also believe this to be true. the theory of oil is oil simply isn't true once the blending for different applications starts happening.
Posted By: Von
Re: Break in oil - 08/10/12 10:20 PM
Quote:
will not be any problem whatsoever being a semi synthetic. You dont NEED a dino oil to break an engine in...the internet can be a dangerous place....
Todd,
Not trying to argue, i was just repeating what Total Seal and other ring mfgs have told me .
Posted By: Von
Re: Break in oil - 08/10/12 10:21 PM
Quote:
His point is, the extremely high detergent levels in the oil for diesel engines makes it harder for the ZDDP molecules to find a place to stick to.
The only problem is Comp and other mfgs specifically suggest Rotella and other diesel oils to use for break in. I would assume that Comp has a handle on detergents and their effects
On the subject of too much zinc can be a bad thing...If we take a base oil with X amount of zinc, add an additive to make the total zinc content B. How much higher of a total zinc content do we have than the zinc content of the oils from the 60s-80s? Its all simple math, I know. But without a VOA from a qt of SH, SG etc oil, etc, Im not sure we can answer that fully. But, Id say its rather important...
Posted By: CompSyn
Re: Break in oil - 08/11/12 03:41 AM
just off the top-of-my-head, I'm not sure Joe Gibbs is right on the "too much detergent" causing ZDDP to not be effective...
...again, without reading too much about it, just knowing how solutes act in solution, I don't think ZDDP needs to *stick* to metal in order to be effective. I guess I've always thought of ZDDP to be like a pressure additive more than anything. It always stays in solution, not necessarily sticking to anything, and as the flat-tappet tries to compress the oil and contact the camshaft, the ZDDP is more or less compressed, and sliding along smoothly against other ZDDP molecules, but always remaining in solution.
The presence of ZDDP (again, I would *imagine*) simply means the oil can withstand more pressure/compression without being displaced off the lifter/cam surface, allowing the oil to be the primary lubricant.
Posted By: CompSyn
Re: Break in oil - 08/11/12 06:32 AM
Regarding the detergents in diesel oil rendering ZDDP weak; I'd take a close look at the source of that assertion.
The formulators know how to bring these components together in a way that's effective. For example, API CJ-4 still has healthy amounts ZDDP. Take a look at the test summary for API CJ-4 by clicking
HERENotice they're evaluating mushroom-style slider tappets in the
Cummins ISB. Is Cummins going to approve an oil with an inherently weak anti-wear package? Probably not; they don't.
There's a lot of research and technology that goes into a properly blended motor oil. Read more about it here:
What's In Your Motor Oil? - link
Posted By: elmor
Re: Break in oil - 08/11/12 10:10 AM
I drained the synth-blend and believe it or not, Walmart has SE/SF rated oil that specifies it has the same zinc content as needed for pre-1988 engines. Talked with my local Mopar guru and he told me thats what he uses in all his flat tappet engines. He said to use it and a bottle of STP. The STP states that it has the ZDDP needed. Broke in the cam yesterday and everything is fine.
Posted By: MLR426
Re: Break in oil - 08/13/12 03:10 PM
30 Weight Brad Penn
MLR426
Posted By: CompSyn
Re: Break in oil - 08/13/12 05:58 PM
For use after break-in I caution the use of ancient API oil category dollar store oil. As it would seem, there is a nee-jerk reaction among some to avoid SN/SM rated modern oils altogether. Yes these newer oils are down about 400ppm in the anti-wear additive ZDDP that we’d like to see but the fact of the matter there are a vast number of improved characteristics of the new oils over the old ones. Even SN is improved over SM.
For example, below is a list of some of the benefits one can expect with regard to improved performance characteristics of an SN rated oil versus ANY retired API category oil that came before it.
- Improved Seal Compatibility
- Improved Rust Protection
- Improved Fuel Economy (Which may mean reduced friction and improved power)
- Less volatile
- Improved Engine Sludge Protection
- Improved Piston Cleanliness
- Improved Oxidative Thickening Protection
So, if one prefers to mix their own anyway with the ZDDP additive of their choice, why not at least start with a motor oil formulated with superior base oils and the modern additive package; the best of both worlds as it were.
Back to engine break-in. For favorable results, use a dedicated engine break-in oil that doesn't have friction modifier additives.
