Posted By: TimS
Type "F" Tranny Fluid ? - 08/02/12 11:46 AM
Does it hurt to put Type F tranny fluid in a Mopar instead of the Dexron?
Type "F" Tranny Fluid ?
Posted By: Southern Wolf
Re: Type "F" Tranny Fluid ? - 08/02/12 11:56 AM
My transmission man told me to use type F, he said it would make it shift better
Posted By: scratchnfotraction
Re: Type "F" Tranny Fluid ? - 08/02/12 12:19 PM
Quote:
Does it hurt to put Type F tranny fluid in a Mopar instead of the Dexron?
No. it will work fine in it and is recomended by most people for a firmer shift.
just picked up a case of type F for my BB 727 swap this weekend myself.
Posted By: StukaJU87
Re: Type "F" Tranny Fluid ? - 08/02/12 01:27 PM
I run Type F in my 727. When Pete Tritak rebuilt it for me that is what he told me to use. I didn't argue with him. 
Posted By: Dodgem
Re: Type "F" Tranny Fluid ? - 08/02/12 02:21 PM
Yes Type F is the accepted grade for performance 727/904's something to do with the grit factor being higher for firmer shifts. Most if not all performance transmission builders will recommend Type F like one builder told me don't was your money on trick shift just use type F!
Posted By: jbc426
Re: Type "F" Tranny Fluid ? - 08/02/12 10:37 PM
One of the regular village bragarts over on the slantsix board was bashing the use of Type F fluid in Mopar transmissions. He claims it degrades the bands and clutches because in the petroleum based form, it can't handle the heat as well as Dexron 2.
While there is some truth to the temperature rating of petrolium Type F as compared to petrolium Dexron, the thermal problem goes away when you switch to synthetic Type F.
In the synthetic form, the Type F can handle much higher thermal loads while still providing enhanced thermal stability and lubricity than petrolium transmision fluids, regadless of the type of fluid ie Dextron or Type F.
If you are going to use Type F, pay a bit more and run the synthetic Type F.
While there is some truth to the temperature rating of petrolium Type F as compared to petrolium Dexron, the thermal problem goes away when you switch to synthetic Type F.
In the synthetic form, the Type F can handle much higher thermal loads while still providing enhanced thermal stability and lubricity than petrolium transmision fluids, regadless of the type of fluid ie Dextron or Type F.
If you are going to use Type F, pay a bit more and run the synthetic Type F.
Posted By: stumpy
Re: Type "F" Tranny Fluid ? - 08/02/12 11:15 PM
Synthetic is not necessary in Mopar transmissions. Regular type F works great to give firm shifts and doesn't break down under normal temps.
Posted By: mcmopars
Re: Type "F" Tranny Fluid ? - 08/03/12 12:01 AM
to be quite honest ive used both in the same transmission and have noticed no difference in either in shifting quality.
Posted By: mcmopars
Re: Type "F" Tranny Fluid ? - 08/03/12 12:08 AM
and to be quite honest ive used whatever was available in cases with no ill effects.mixing one with another,i know your not suppossed too but,kinda like the power steering pump,ive used what i had to at times with no catastrophic failure. so no ,using type f is o.k.
Posted By: Mr.Yuck
Re: Type "F" Tranny Fluid ? - 08/03/12 12:18 AM
Well I just dumped some coin on my trans last year and the builder said to run Dextron in it...I'll go by that.
Posted By: RSNOMO
Re: Type "F" Tranny Fluid ? - 08/03/12 12:34 AM
Got a Torqueflite that's been living on Type F for 20 years...
It's been subjected to beaucoup heat-more than once...
As far as 'band and clutch degradation'???
Just had the pan down not too long ago...
Looked just like it did when I bolted it on...
It's been subjected to beaucoup heat-more than once...
As far as 'band and clutch degradation'???
Just had the pan down not too long ago...
Looked just like it did when I bolted it on...
Posted By: Kern Dog
Re: Type "F" Tranny Fluid ? - 08/03/12 12:41 AM
I asked this question about a month ago and got the same feedback. I had the converter out of the car and decided to do a complete drain of the trans as well. I like the feel of the trans with the type F. It does shift firmer. the fluid was cheaper too. I can that a win-win. 
Posted By: TimS
Re: Type "F" Tranny Fluid ? - 08/03/12 02:29 AM
I'll try it in my 69 Super Bee. Thanks very much for the input.
Posted By: Chris2581
Re: Type "F" Tranny Fluid ? - 08/03/12 03:23 AM
We've used nothing but Type F since 1977..never any problems with it.
Posted By: ledft79
Re: Type "F" Tranny Fluid ? - 08/19/12 05:37 PM
I was told 35 years ago, Type F only in mopars. That's all that I've ever put in them. I don't know as though Dextron would hurt anything, but Type F for me.
Posted By: savoy64
Re: Type "F" Tranny Fluid ? - 08/19/12 06:40 PM
well i hope type F doesnt have more grit----hoping it is less slippery....bob
Posted By: 383man
Re: Type "F" Tranny Fluid ? - 08/19/12 08:16 PM
I have a good supply of ATF+4 since I worked at a Dodge dealer for 24 years. All my brother and I have ever used is the Mopar ATF+. It shifts great and looked like brand new when I dropped the pan. I dont think I will drain it and add type F to see if it is any faster. 
Ron
Ron
Posted By: A12
Re: Type "F" Tranny Fluid ? - 08/19/12 08:31 PM
Type F was developed by Ford (hence the F) to help their auto trans shift more crisp like the Chrysler and GM autos I was told. Type F has less "cushion agents" in it to achieve the firmer shifts. With less cushion agents it should shift firmer but not be a problem for other components that need lubrication. That's all they do with so called "racing automatic transmission fluid" is reduce the cushion agents to minimize the clutch engagement slip or cushion.
Posted By: John_Kunkel
Re: Type "F" Tranny Fluid ? - 08/19/12 09:15 PM
It's not about "cushioning", it's all about the coefficient of friction (the ratio of the force of friction between two bodies). Type F has a more aggressive COF.
Posted By: A12
Re: Type "F" Tranny Fluid ? - 08/19/12 10:07 PM
Quote:
It's not about "cushioning", it's all about the coefficient of friction (the ratio of the force of friction between two bodies). Type F has a more aggressive COF.
John you might want to do a search for cushioning agents and clutches to see what I meant. We had these issues for years in motorcycle wet clutches and there are agents that are meant to cushion or soften clutch engagement and at the worst cause clutch slippage. Won't argue the COF but what determines that is the fluid or oil and the type of friction modifiers that are added to them. Type F has less friction modifiers and or cushioning agents ADDED to it than Dextron or other transmission fluids and transmission oils so it has a higher COF
Posted By: slantzilla
Re: Type "F" Tranny Fluid ? - 08/19/12 11:10 PM
The main thing was you could use Type F in anything, but you could not use Dexron in a Ford. Ford used different material (I was told paper based) in the bands, and Type F was used to keep them from burning up.
B&M Trick Shift that used to be $4 a quart when Type F was $1 was just Type F with blue dye instead of red.
I use Type F in all my 904's. I use ATF +4 in all my OD trans'.
Just a habit I'd guess.
B&M Trick Shift that used to be $4 a quart when Type F was $1 was just Type F with blue dye instead of red.
I use Type F in all my 904's. I use ATF +4 in all my OD trans'.
Just a habit I'd guess.
Posted By: A12
Re: Type "F" Tranny Fluid ? - 08/19/12 11:52 PM
Quote:
It's not about "cushioning", it's all about the coefficient of friction (the ratio of the force of friction between two bodies). Type F has a more aggressive COF.
John with this article we are both correct but the fluid's friction modifiers influences the friction material's "lock-up" point. The COF is still in the material used for the clutch friction plates or discs and the lock-up point depends on the fluid characteristics.
BTW I have always used Type F in my 727's
http://www.studebaker-info.org/PDF/44_TN4_8.PDF
Posted By: BLACKHEMIRR
Re: Type "F" Tranny Fluid ? - 08/20/12 01:46 AM
I always heard that type F was required in the C4 & C6 transmissions because the Dexron would foam in them.
Posted By: pjc360
Re: Type "F" Tranny Fluid ? - 08/20/12 03:09 AM
i got a question that no one has really been able to answer, can type f be used in a non lock up A-518 sucsessfully? I know for the first 3 gears the type f would do fine, but what i wanna know is if type f is good enough to keep the overdrive planetery gears happy.
Posted By: pjc360
Re: Type "F" Tranny Fluid ? - 08/20/12 05:22 AM
no one knows if type f can be ran in a non lock up A-518?
Posted By: 451Mopar
Re: Type "F" Tranny Fluid ? - 08/20/12 05:29 AM
It is OK in the older non-lockup transmissions.
Don't use in a lockup type transmission.
The Type F may shift firmer if the trans has stock clutches. I'm not sure it makes much difference if using the race clutches?
Don't use in a lockup type transmission.
The Type F may shift firmer if the trans has stock clutches. I'm not sure it makes much difference if using the race clutches?
Posted By: dave571
Re: Type "F" Tranny Fluid ? - 08/20/12 05:33 AM
Quote:
no one knows if type f can be ran in a non lock up A-518?
I wouldn't. As stuff get's newer it get's pickier.
Back to the thread, this debate comes up once in a while, but is really moot.
The 727 and 904 are kinda like the cave men of automatics. They work, and work well, with almost any kind of fluid. I've seen guys on here testify to using straight engine oil, cause it would lubricate better.
In any case, will type f work? of course, and wont hurt anything that was any good to begin with..
My question has always been, and will always be, why would you bother? Even ford gave up the stuff in 79. Modern fluids are MUCH better suited for extreme temps etc.
We could use Bias ply tires, and they would work fine, but clearly there is better stuff out there, and the same goes for type F.
FWIW I use either Mercon 5 or atf plus 4 whatever the current stuff is
Posted By: CompSyn
Re: Type "F" Tranny Fluid ? - 08/20/12 04:11 PM
Quote:Quote:
no one knows if type f can be ran in a non lock up A-518?
I wouldn't. As stuff get's newer it get's pickier.
Back to the thread, this debate comes up once in a while, but is really moot.
The 727 and 904 are kinda like the cave men of automatics. They work, and work well, with almost any kind of fluid. I've seen guys on here testify to using straight engine oil, cause it would lubricate better.
In any case, will type f work? of course, and wont hurt anything that was any good to begin with..
My question has always been, and will always be, why would you bother? Even ford gave up the stuff in 79. Modern fluids are MUCH better suited for extreme temps etc.
We could use Bias ply tires, and they would work fine, but clearly there is better stuff out there, and the same goes for type F.
FWIW I use either Mercon 5 or atf plus 4 whatever the current stuff is
Posted By: 360view
Re: Type "F" Tranny Fluid ? - 08/20/12 04:54 PM
Type F seems to be one of the ATF formulations in the many graphs in this SAE paper about Mopar 9176, such as Figure 9
http://u225.torque.net/cars/tech/trans/982674.pdf
TEST FLUIDS -
Table 1 provides elemental analyses and some typical physical characteristics of the two key ATFs evaluated.
ATF A represents the current Chrysler Factory-Fill ATF (ATF+3, aka 7176)
while ATF B is the new factory-fill ATF (+4 aka 9602)
... Torque Converter Clutch Performance –
The goal was to develop a fluid that would match or exceed the holding capacity of ATF A. During the course of the program, many candidates were screened for clutch holding capacity. Figure 9 shows how the new ATF B compares to the current ATF A in the bench test developed to simulate the holding capacity of the torque converter clutch.
Also shown are the results on two other potential ATF candidates from the development program.
ATF F (Mercon?) gave lower coefficients in this test compared to ATF A. and also caused some slippage in the proprietary Chrysler TCC test. However vehicle shift quality performance of ATF F was acceptable.
On the other hand ATF G (Dexron3 ?) gave acceptable TCC performance but provided harsher shifts in the vehicle
[7] Chrysler Corporation, “Engineering Specification MS- 7176 Change E”, May 14, 1997
[8] Ford Motor Company, “MERCON Automatic Transmission Fluid Specification trademarked for Service”, September 1, 1992
[9] Ford Motor Company, “MERCONV Automatic Transmission Fluid Specification Trademarked for Service”, February 1, 1996
http://u225.torque.net/cars/tech/trans/982674.pdf
TEST FLUIDS -
Table 1 provides elemental analyses and some typical physical characteristics of the two key ATFs evaluated.
ATF A represents the current Chrysler Factory-Fill ATF (ATF+3, aka 7176)
while ATF B is the new factory-fill ATF (+4 aka 9602)
... Torque Converter Clutch Performance –
The goal was to develop a fluid that would match or exceed the holding capacity of ATF A. During the course of the program, many candidates were screened for clutch holding capacity. Figure 9 shows how the new ATF B compares to the current ATF A in the bench test developed to simulate the holding capacity of the torque converter clutch.
Also shown are the results on two other potential ATF candidates from the development program.
ATF F (Mercon?) gave lower coefficients in this test compared to ATF A. and also caused some slippage in the proprietary Chrysler TCC test. However vehicle shift quality performance of ATF F was acceptable.
On the other hand ATF G (Dexron3 ?) gave acceptable TCC performance but provided harsher shifts in the vehicle
[7] Chrysler Corporation, “Engineering Specification MS- 7176 Change E”, May 14, 1997
[8] Ford Motor Company, “MERCON Automatic Transmission Fluid Specification trademarked for Service”, September 1, 1992
[9] Ford Motor Company, “MERCONV Automatic Transmission Fluid Specification Trademarked for Service”, February 1, 1996
Posted By: ChristianCuda
Re: Type "F" Tranny Fluid ? - 08/20/12 05:36 PM
Quote:
The main thing was you could use Type F in anything, but you could not use Dexron in a Ford. Ford used different material (I was told paper based) in the bands, and Type F was used to keep them from burning up.
B&M Trick Shift that used to be $4 a quart when Type F was $1 was just Type F with blue dye instead of red.
I use Type F in all my 904's. I use ATF +4 in all my OD trans'.
Just a habit I'd guess.
Posted By: John_Kunkel
Re: Type "F" Tranny Fluid ? - 08/20/12 09:47 PM
Quote:
i got a question that no one has really been able to answer, can type f be used in a non lock up A-518 sucsessfully? I know for the first 3 gears the type f would do fine, but what i wanna know is if type f is good enough to keep the overdrive planetery gears happy.
Type F is just about the last fluid you would want to run in any OD trans...it lacks the lubrication needed for constantly running OD gears.
Posted By: A12
Re: Type "F" Tranny Fluid ? - 08/20/12 10:37 PM
Quote:
Type F seems to be one of the ATF formulations in the many graphs in this SAE paper about Mopar 9176, such as Figure 9
http://u225.torque.net/cars/tech/trans/982674.pdf
TEST FLUIDS -
Table 1 provides elemental analyses and some typical physical characteristics of the two key ATFs evaluated.
ATF A represents the current Chrysler Factory-Fill ATF (ATF+3, aka 7176)
while ATF B is the new factory-fill ATF (+4 aka 9602)
... Torque Converter Clutch Performance –
The goal was to develop a fluid that would match or exceed the holding capacity of ATF A. During the course of the program, many candidates were screened for clutch holding capacity. Figure 9 shows how the new ATF B compares to the current ATF A in the bench test developed to simulate the holding capacity of the torque converter clutch.
Also shown are the results on two other potential ATF candidates from the development program.
ATF F (Mercon?) gave lower coefficients in this test compared to ATF A. and also caused some slippage in the proprietary Chrysler TCC test. However vehicle shift quality performance of ATF F was acceptable.
On the other hand ATF G (Dexron3 ?) gave acceptable TCC performance but provided harsher shifts in the vehicle
[7] Chrysler Corporation, “Engineering Specification MS- 7176 Change E”, May 14, 1997
[8] Ford Motor Company, “MERCON Automatic Transmission Fluid Specification trademarked for Service”, September 1, 1992
[9] Ford Motor Company, “MERCONV Automatic Transmission Fluid Specification Trademarked for Service”, February 1, 1996
According to the SAE doc ATF B is the best of the best at present? Even better than F-Type ATF for lock-up and unlock
So where do we get this ATF B???
Posted By: John_Kunkel
Re: Type "F" Tranny Fluid ? - 08/20/12 11:43 PM
Type B is the original Dexron. Dexron is a GM test standard.
Posted By: A12
Re: Type "F" Tranny Fluid ? - 08/20/12 11:46 PM
Quote:
Type B is the original Dexron. Dexron is a GM test standard.
thanks JohnI guess I'll just stick with Type F
Posted By: A12
Re: Type "F" Tranny Fluid ? - 08/21/12 02:45 PM
Quote:
Type B is the original Dexron. Dexron is a GM test standard.
I had to re-read the SAE doc, what did Chrysler develop from this, was it Dexron II? Here's the title of the SAE document again, the heading suggests something NEW:
Development and Introduction of Chrysler’s New Automatic Transmission Fluid
Dennis W. Florkowski and Tracey E. King
Chrysler Corporation
Anthony P. Skrobul
Texas Lubricants
James L. Sumiejski
Lubrizol Corporation
Then this:
TEST FLUIDS - Table 1 provides elemental analyses
and some typical physical characteristics of the two key
ATFs evaluated. ATF A represents the current Chrysler
Factory-Fill ATF, while ATF B is the new factory-fill ATF.
Posted By: CompSyn
Re: Type "F" Tranny Fluid ? - 08/21/12 06:21 PM
Quote:Quote:
Type B is the original Dexron. Dexron is a GM test standard.
I had to re-read the SAE doc, what did Chrysler develop from this, was it Dexron II? Here's the title of the SAE document again, the heading suggests something NEW:
Development and Introduction of Chrysler’s New Automatic Transmission Fluid
Dennis W. Florkowski and Tracey E. King
Chrysler Corporation
Anthony P. Skrobul
Texas Lubricants
James L. Sumiejski
Lubrizol Corporation
Then this:
TEST FLUIDS - Table 1 provides elemental analyses
and some typical physical characteristics of the two key
ATFs evaluated. ATF A represents the current Chrysler
Factory-Fill ATF, while ATF B is the new factory-fill ATF.
The SAE paper is referencing the development of Mopar ATF+4 (MS-9602) and replacement of the prior Mopar ATF+3 (MS7176E).
Notice how the more modern Mopar ATF+4 utilizes a Fully Synthetic Group III base oil from Texaco and a top notch additive package from the Lubrizol Corporation.
Mopar ATF+4 began development in 1989 so it has roots going back 23-years.
There are newer more advanced fluids on the market today.