need some 727 help

Just fired my fresh 440 in my 69 Coronet R/T. while I had the eng/trans out I make some upgrades to the 727 (by VIN trans is from a later 1969 383-2 car). Upgrades included a transgo TF2 shift kit as well as replacing the 2.9 lever with a 4.2 (a previous owner had added a part throttle kickdown). Never done any trans work, but I did everything exactly as detailed in the transgo instructions (used Munroe 727 book as well to help with the valve body). Everything appeared to go back perfectly. This includes as well band adjustments as well as the throttle position valve adjustments done exactly as described. Just over 8 quarts of TCI trickshift (Merc) brought the fluid level right up to full on the dipstick. Assume the torque converter is just a run of the mill stock unit (had a drain plug on it).

Got the engine running, but am having trans issues now. I will list some of my observations below.
When in D doesn’t seem to want to come out of 1st gear unless I totally let off the gas pedal. Have held it part throttle up to over 4000 rpm and it stayed in 1st.... way way past where it should shift. throttle may be about 1/8 to 1/4 of the way to WOT.

Interestingly if I am going along part throttle in D at say 3000 rpm (stays in 1st), above where it needs to shift relative to speed/throttle, if I downshift to 2nd it instantly upshifts from 1st to 2nd.
If I go WOT at 40-45 mph it stays in 3rd (3.55 gears and 27/60/15 rears)… doesn’t downshift.

If I roll out with gear selector in 1st and accelerate hard, but not WOT, when I bump it to 2nd the shift was slow and occurred about 500 rpm after the shift.

At a standstill it drops into gear normally and quick for 1, 2, D, and R

What I have done to try to fix things:
Confirmed throttle position adjustment was correctly adjusted
Checked gear selector adjustment
Made top rod on the throttle position linkage (stock 3 segment linkage) a total of 3 and 6 full turns shorter (from my reading this should bring the shift in earlier) neither appeared to help at all.... from drive only way it comes out of first is completely letting off throttle. With these 2 adjustments the slotted rod went from just in contact with carb stud to 1/8 and ¼ inch of slack.
Confirmed throttle opens fully (i.e., throttle lever isn’t fully back before throttle is).

Sorry for long post, but figured all these details may be needed to get to the bottom of this.

Not sure what to do at this point. Any suggestion? New to this so need some help here.

Did the trans work correctly prior to the recent TF-2 installation and was it using the exact same TP linkage? Does the TP linkage have a spring pulling it forward against the throttle lever stud?

Try temporarily disconnecting the TP linkage at the trans lever and pull the lever full forward, if it upshifts earlier than normal with the linkage disconnected the linkage is the problem.

also sounds like a possible govener hanging up.did you hang the trans up and down,pump up? i agree w/ john on ck'ing all the kickdown linkage issues. do you have a factory service manual? it will show you how to adjust the kickdown, and trouble shoot issues.

Have you rechecked the trans fluid level with the car running in neutral?

Thanks for the responses.

Some answers to questions:
John
TP linkage is the original 3 segment linkage illustrated/described in the FSM (picture attached). Moves fore/aft easily and doesn't bind. Return spring is in place and returns the linkage to full forward position after moving rearward. Literally only drove the car a few times before I pulled things apart as I unexpectedly stumbled upon an engine issue. Only thing I noticed in those drives was it wouldn't drop down to 1st even at slower speeds when it had already upshifted out of first (no 2-1 downshift), but did start in first off the line... didn't 3-2 downshift at higher speeds (learned it does have the part throttle hardware in place when I disassembled the VB)... at WOT it shifted earlier than I had hoped ~4200RPM. Other than that it operated/drove/shifted perfectly fine. As I am new to this in my reading (after pulling the eng/trans) I figured the lack of downshift was related to TP adjustment and the low shift points at WOT was likely related to its calibration for original car (c-body). Figured the former would be fixed by adjusting linkage upon reassembly...

Mike
The TP setup was adjusted precisely as described in the FSM. When it wouldn't upshift I then shortened the top segment another 1/8 (3 turns) and then 1/4 inch (6 turns) as from my reading this should cause EARLIER shifts. Thing I wasn't sure of was if these types of changes are significant or not (didn't want to damage anything). I read the Munroe 727 book as well as the FSM for troubleshooting. Seemed like I was at the point that dropping the pan or doing pressure checks was next... As I am new to this figured I'd ask before pushing into the unknown. trans has not been hung on end...

Stumpy
I have checked fluid level repeatedly while warm in N on level ground and the level is at full. Believe I have about 8.25 quarts in it right now. From my reading the amount of ATF must vary quite a bit based on the torque converter. I was nervous this was the problem, but as I said the level is up to the full mark and the dipstick appears to be the correct one. I recall from having it apart that the bottom of the dipstick sat just below the mating surface of the pan (maybe an inch or so?). Fluid/filter are fresh.

Next step
I will disconnect the linkage at the TP lever, make sure the lever is pulled full forward, and see if this gets it to upshift under throttle. Will quadruple check fluid level. I will do this before investigation anything related to the governor as that will be tougher/uncharted territory for me.

If anyone else has any suggestions let me know. Won't be able to get to this until tonight at earliest or possibly tomorrow. Having a 3 and 1 year old as well as a full time job make it tough to find 15-20 free minutes of time.

Thanks for all help so far.

the not upshifting till higher speed symptom sounds like the kickdown adjustment on the valve body (throttle valve.)
The long screw with the jam nut that holds the throttle valve in needs to be adjusted for more clearance between the kickdown lever and the throttle valve. Look in the Monroe book, he describes the tool and the distance it should be.
Slow shifting into third can be leakage in the seals, front servo, or excessive front clutch clearance. If you installed the restrictor from the TF-2 kit into the case, remove it and see if it helps the 3rd gear shift.

Try the suggestion John recommended by disconnecting the linkage. If the shifts are still late, drop the valve body and check the throttle pressure sleeve. There are two valves, a spring and a sleeve that go in the throttle valve bore. The last part to go in, the sleeve, has one end where the inner diameter is smaller than the other but it will fit over the other valve either way. If you install the sleeve with the smaller inner diameter first, you will have problems very similar to what you are experiencing. The sleeve must be installed with the large inner diameter towards the valve body. Also check that the throttle valve isn't hung up against something.

Partial update. Aplogies for all the detail, but figured it may be useful.

I removed the throttle position linkage at the trans lever and then pulled the throttle lever full forward (towards front of car) and wired it in place. Checked fluid level again hot in N. Took the car for a spin and this is what I observed.

1) From a standstill the 1-2 upshift occurred at 3500+ rpm when in D. With the linkage disconnected I would of guessed the shift would occur very early.

2) Again as I mentioned in my first post if I dropped from D to 2 at lower RPM (trans still running in 1st), when I thought it should have already 1-2 upshifted I could get it to 1-2 upshift immediately.

3) As I was running out of time/daylight/fuel/road I did a couple accelerations from a stop in D and after it 1-2 upshifted at 3500+ rpm I dropped the gear selector into 2. When I did this at first I thought it was downshifting making me wonder if it was in 3rd already (possibly in 2nd from stop?), but I don't think this was the case as the tach barely moved (car is probably cruising at about 35 mph at this point). The hood is off the car and I could see the engine flex (like when it shifts, but more subtle) when this happened. So now I am wondering if this was not a 3-2 downshift, but rather something else being released (as the tach barely moved), but the trans felt like it was being freed up or something?

Sorry for the poor description, but it doesn't help when you are new to this. In reading my thought was maybe somehow it has something (band) applied that should not be at that time and dropping from D to 2nd on the selector helped remove this?

In any event as I said I ran out of time, but figured this may provide insight? Not ignoring other posts, but figured disconnecting the throttle position lever was the first thing to do and figured the other info may be useful.

So in review even with the throttle position lever disconnected 1-2 upshift was occurring at over 3500 rpm and there is something happening after the 1-2 upshift as if I drop the gear selector into 2 it feels as if something is happening (feels like a milder gearshift, but doesn't show up on the tach).

At this point I figured I need to check in for advice as I don't know how to proceed and don't want to toast the tranny.

Thanks for all the help. Really appreciate it.

451MOPAR and PC-Charger,
Thanks. Both of your suggestions related to the throttle valve assembly and its' adjustment on the valve body are on my list of things to check if I hear back that I need to drop the pan/valve body. Holding out to hear though based on my new information I provided in my post right above this one from my test drive last night. After reviewing the Transgo instructions and looking in the Munroe book I am not certain that the sleeve on the throttle valve assembly was put back on with the large opening towards the inside of the VB (since it was stated to assemble that way in the transgo instructions I should of done it, but just can't recall with absolute certainty doing it that way... reassembled the valve body about 18 months ago). I know that I did not make the throttle pressure adjustment on the VB (setting the position of the throttle lever cam relative to the kickdown valve when fully compressed by way of the throttle lever stop screw) as this was not outlined in the transgo instructions. As stated though late shifting was not present before the TF2 kit went in.

So will sit back now and wait to hear any suggestions.

Also in case you didn't see/read my above post in addition to upshift issue that was helped partly by disconnecting throttle linkage it felt as if there was something extra engaged when trans was driving in 2nd gear with selector in D vs driving in second with selector in 2?????

Thanks

I bet this is the problem too. BTW, you can remove that sleeve without dropping the VB if you are careful.
There are three screws holding the bracket, top one of course you cannot get to. Remove the other two and gently bend the bracket and rotate it if possible.
Then use a mechanics magnet to pull it out.

I think you need to pull the valve body.
Check the assembly and clearance of the throttle valve, and I think the TF-2 kit uses a different shift valve. When installing the shift valve you may need to tweek the arm that moves the shift valve so it aligns with the passages in the valve body. The instructions should show this. I also think you need to file a groove in the valve body at the shift valve location. You may also want to remove front clutch restrictor in the case. double check the pressure valve adjustment too.
Since your in the trans, re-adjust the bands.
The Sonnax oversize front servo kit helps improve the 2-3 shift by reducing leakage (the front fluid circuit that applys the front clutch also applies pressure/fluid to the front servo between the servo piston and cover to release the front band) to the with the "O"-ring sealed cover, and releasing the front band quicker on the 2-3 shift.

Transmissioncenter has these servo kits for $73, part number #518RED16:
http://www.transmissioncenter.net/727transmission.htm

The description says to use with above cover, but the kit shows the sealed cover included.

OK. I am going to drop the pan and VB this weekend and check things out. Not sure if I should pull the restrictor plug or not from the TF2 kit. Other than that I will focus on the throttle valve parts closely and adjust that and check everything else over while i have it out/apart (including bands).

thanks

Let us know how it goes.

So I dropped the pan and VB. The throttle valve assembly WAS assembled correctly. I did make a minor adjustment to the stopscrew that stops the cam on the throttle lever shaft (made it shorter). Pulled the rest of the VB apart and confirmed everything was assembled correctly and moved freely (Used the Munroe 727 book to confirm assembly). Bands are adjusted correctly.

Only thing I did see that made me think was related to the manual valve. With the TF2 the manual valve is replaced w/ a transgo one that has a thicker and a thinner middle land than the original. position is suppose to be set so the thin land just enters the 4th webbing of the valve body when in Park. On mine the land just about fully enters the web meaning the manual valve is set deep. as the valve is moved off the indexes on the rooster comb the valve would/should be a hair deep at each position. however, as the the thin land is quite narrow 0.04" I don't know how close is close enough. what would the result of this be? Could it contribute to any of my symptoms? see attached picture for the instructions sheet.

my though is I need to bend the arm to move the manual valve outward a bit, but from a diagnosing standpoint want to know if this is enough to explain my problems since nothing else was really found???

any other suggestions while the VB is out?

thanks

There have been several versions of the TF-2 kit over the years and there are a number of changes. Did you replace the 1-2 shift plug or grind the exisiting valve to get the shift on demand frature? I think that's what it was called. Basically if you did this mod, you can move the shift lever at any speed and the transmission will downshift. The original TF-2 kits you just changed the 1-2 shift plug that was included in the kit but the later ones, you had to grind your exisiting valve AND install a rectangular plate on to the bottom of the VB with some longer screws that were supplied. If you ground the valve but didn't install the plate, that could be the issue as well.

PC-CHARGER
Thanks for the response. I both ground the 1-2 governor valve as shown in the transgo instructions and installed the shift command plate. The modified gov valve moves well in its bore and doesn't bind.

The updated manual valve and modifications/adjustment is more directed to allowing the transmission to fill the converter in park so unlikley it is casuing the problem but a good idea to set it according to the Transgo instructions.

From your first post, it sounds like the transmission was working fine before the install of the shift kit so logically the problem is somewhere in the vavle body or something done to the transmission during the install of that shift kit. I'd suggest going over each step of the install carefully including the band adjustment and also do some air checks of the clutches and servos while the VB is out.

any trick/slick/MacGyver (2 liter bottle, roll of duct tape, and a bike pump) ways to air check the servos without a compressor?

how many PSI of pressure do you need to develop?

You don't need a whole lot of pressure. 50 PSI or so should be plenty for checking. If you can borrow a portable air tank and a rubber tipped blow gun you will be able to check the clutches and bands. The bands are obvious as you will see the linkages moving. The clutches are not as easy but you should hear them clunk when you apply the air. There will be some air leakage even on a good sealing system but it is relatively easy to distinguish a bad leak from a good sealing system. Be careful as there will be oil showering down as you blow air into the various ports.

? on the throttle pressure adjustment on the VB. The Munroe book details setting the gap between the cam on the throttle lever bracket and the kickdown valve on the throttle valve assembly (when fully depressed) at 5/8 of an inch. Since the TF2 kit grinds down the throttle valve this increases the range of motion on the throttle valve assembly (throttle valve, spring and kickdown valve) so the 5/8 of an inch measure should be increased shouldn't it. I thought i recall reading somewhere (looked but can't find it) that after grinding the throttle valve down the gap between the throttle lever cam and the kickdown valve protruding from the valve body should be set to some measurement WITHOUT compressing the valve at all.
anyone know the procedure or distance?

The air gap between the end of the valve and the cam is originally around .200", over the years TransGo has recommended different settings but never under .125".

Going back to your first post I see you said someone added a part throttle kickdown. Did they use the old Direct connection part throttle conversion kit or did they just bolt on a part throttle module from a newer VB? I haven't tried it but from everything I've read you can't just bolt a part throttle module onto a older valve body and it work. Maybe someone else here has some input on it. If not I'd take the part throttle module off and look real close at things to see if it looks right.

One other thing. What year is this trans?

fishy68,
Not sure how to tell if the part throttle is from an original valve body or if it is an aftermarket direct connection part. I've attached a picture illustrating the parts associated with the part throttle. Mine is assembled and looks identical to this picture (i.e., no extra or fewer parts than those pictured).

the ID of the trans indicates it was originally in a 1969 383-2 barrel car...before part throttle kickdown was standard so I was surprised to see the part throttle kickdown equipment when I pulled the VB... so it was added at some time by someone. Again from my limited driving of the car before disassembly both full throttle and part throttle kickdown did not appear to work, but did do breakaway low and upshifted fine. Didn't know much then, but figured this was related to the external throttle pressure linkage being misadjusted.

Would appreciate any insight into the part throttle since I can deal with this now much easier with the valve body out. Anyone have an answer to the question of whether or not a later year part throttle kickdown assembly can be bolted up to an older VB and work? I found a post saying it does.

https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/show...amp;Search=true

Also at this point would it be a good use of time to pull the tailshaft and check out the governor assembly? That was brought up earlier, but unsure how likely it is that that could be contributing to any of my issues?

Thanks for all the help provided so far.

my part throttle assembly is in lower left of this photo... not best photo, but I had it here at work with me.

That looks like the later PT module but I can't see all of it so I'm not 100% sure. I'm reading conflicting information on it. In the thread URL you posted John Kunkel posted they do interdchange and I know John has been around a lot longer than me doing 727's so I don't question his work usually but I see on A&A's website where they have a PT module that is made to bolt onto a Pre-70 valve body and they say you can't use a later PT module on an earlier VB. Here's a link to it

http://www.aandatrans.com/Products/727-3-2-Kick-Down-Module-(1966-69)__22740-32SI.aspx

One other posibility is someone didn't just bolt a PT module on your older VB, rather they installed a newer VB. Look on the main casting for a # and post it. I might be able to identify what year it is from.

The governor can definetly have a profound affect on when it shifts. I'd inspect it to make sure it moves freely and someone hasn't installed a real high RPM governor. The latter is unlikely but you never know with stuff that is over 40 yrs. old.

addendum: I just noticed in the pic that I see what looks like a spring inside of a spring for the pressure regulator. That's not factory. Do you know if it has had a shift kit installed? If so what brand?

I'll look for a part number on the VB when I get home tonight.

The PR valve does have a spring within a spring as that is part of the Transgo TF2 kit I just put in it.

Trans was upshifitng at lower RPM before I pulled apart at WOT (about 4400 rpm). From what I read that sounds about right (stock) as trans was from a 3838-2 bbl car. Was going to see if they increased after the TF2 and adjustments before considering changing the governor parts with weights from A&A, but now I will pull that apart to make sure things are moving freely there.

From my reading I thought the later PT kickdown will work on an earlier VB, but it just won't have the feature that downshifts (3 to 2) won't occur after about 40 mph... again I'll look for some casting/part numbers later today and post.

Thanks

I'm suspecting that its a later model valve body as well. Flip it over and there should be a two digit number as part of the casting, I believe it is circled or inside of a star. What does it say?

Assuming the VB is from 1972 based on the date pinwheel?

This have any bearing on the trans function (trans is a 69)?

Quote:

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I'll look for a part number on the VB when I get home tonight.

The PR valve does have a spring within a spring as that is part of the Transgo TF2 kit I just put in it.

Trans was upshifitng at lower RPM before I pulled apart at WOT (about 4400 rpm). From what I read that sounds about right (stock) as trans was from a 3838-2 bbl car. Was going to see if they increased after the TF2 and adjustments before considering changing the governor parts with weights from A&A, but now I will pull that apart to make sure things are moving freely there.

From my reading I thought the later PT kickdown will work on an earlier VB, but it just won't have the feature that downshifts (3 to 2) won't occur after about 40 mph... again I'll look for some casting/part numbers later today and post.

Thanks

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Ahh, they must have changed things since I last used a TF-2 kit about a yr. ago. 4400 rpm shifts are about right for that trans. As I mentioned earlier I don't have personal experience about the PT kickdown thing. Like you it's just what I've read and as you may have seen A&A says it won't work. It seems to be a undecided subject.

As for your other question

"Assuming the VB is from 1972 based on the date pinwheel?

This have any bearing on the trans function (trans is a 69)?"

I'd say it's a 72 also and I have swapped valve bodies from 1 trans. to another without any issues. There are calibration differences in them depending on the application they were designed for (granny car, HP car, or truck) but those differences won't generally cause any issues.