440, 4-speed, A/C ?

Posted By: 696pack

Re: 440, 4-speed, A/C ? - 07/23/12 08:34 PM

I just had a conversation with an older gentleman asking about my 66 Charger that said he had one he bought new in 1966. He said it got terrific mileage and that it had a /6 with a 4 speed. I asked if he was sure about that combination as all the printed info shows the 318 as standard and no /6 available in a 1966 Charger. He said "well, that is wrong because I had one new." He said that he had a 65 Barracuda with a 318 that got horrible mileage and the dealer worked on it for months and they could not figure it out so when the 66s came out he traded for the 66 Charger and they gave him his original purchase price on the Barracuda back in trade because of the problems with the car.

Just goes to show you that these things did happen.

Posted By: 6bblgt

Re: 440, 4-speed, A/C ? - 07/23/12 09:06 PM

it was probably another Barracuda

40+years/details & memories SUCK!!

Posted By: VL21

Re: 440, 4-speed, A/C ? - 07/23/12 09:06 PM

Uh, no. Not buying either part of that one.

Posted By: DPelletier

Re: 440, 4-speed, A/C ? - 07/23/12 09:41 PM

Quote:

Just goes to show you that these things did happen.

....sure they happened.... but about 10X less frequently than you hear about though. Most of these stories are, well....just stories.

...never heard about the factory 6 pack 426 Hemi cars? or the 1974 Hemi cars? or the 440 Hemis or...well, you get the idea. We've all heard of these "weren't supposed to exist type cars". I suppose whether or not you choose to believe depends on your own personality, but IMO the VAST majority of these stories are about cars that simply didn't exist; they were modified (yes, sometimes even before they left the lot) or the owner's recollection isn't quite up to snuff. and then sometimes people just make stuff up for a variety of reasons. Several times over the years people have come to me with one of these stories and every time when I looked at the car, I found that it wasn't really what it was claimed to be.

funny how usually there is absolutely nothing concrete to back these claims up.

call me a pessimist

Dave

Posted By: 69CoronetRT

Re: 440, 4-speed, A/C ? - 07/24/12 12:05 AM

Quote:

call me a pessimist

...or a realist. I agree. How come NONE of the 440-4 speed A/C cars or any of the other supposedly 'special built' cars (70 Daytona anyone?) have surfaced?

Posted By: 69CoronetRT

Re: 440, 4-speed, A/C ? - 07/24/12 12:07 AM

Quote:

it was probably another Barracuda

Could have been Marlin....

Posted By: dan9

Re: 440, 4-speed, A/C ? - 07/24/12 03:13 PM

I don't think his Barracuda would have come with a 318 then. I'd say it had a 273 unless it was changed when the car was fairly new.

Posted By: rbstroker

Re: 440, 4-speed, A/C ? - 07/24/12 03:52 PM

Were any big block 4 speed cars available with a "smaller" gear than 3.23 (2.94 or 2.76)?

Posted By: JohnRR

Re: 440, 4-speed, A/C ? - 07/24/12 04:51 PM

Quote:

'Anything like this was available from any auto manufacturer if you were the right person.'

Bullseye...

We've talked to enough folks from Lynch Road, and Hamtramck to know this as fact...

How would they handle options that the model line NEVER had? The 69 R/T listed above is said to have a POWER SEAT, that wasn't even available in a B body till something like 75 or 76 ... if at all.

Posted By: JohnRR

Re: 440, 4-speed, A/C ? - 07/24/12 04:54 PM

Quote:

All these '68-'69 383-4v RR's and SBees with a/c (stick or auto) came with a slightly detuned 383 with a 10% lower compression ratio and a weaker cam). This was a 383 Commando engine even if some or all of them were badged or called Magnum or "road runner" engines. I never saw a factory documented 440-4v stick car with A/C. But saw a couple of them that "claimed" to be legit (ie undocumented).

Somewhat incorrect , the 330HP 383 , which is what the A/C RR and SB had had the same overstated compression ratio as the 335hp engine , 10.0 , but actually 9.2. The camshaft, valve springs and the tune were the difference.

Posted By: 696pack

Re: 440, 4-speed, A/C ? - 07/24/12 06:12 PM

1. First of all I find it interesting that people behind their key boards that did not have a face to face conversation with the original owner as I did can question his memory. The guy is not senile, is still driving and seem very sharp to me.

2. My bad. I said 318 he said V8 in the 65 Barracuda.

3. The guy and I talked fro quite a while and he was a car lover. He still has the 78 Ford pick up he bought new and was driving it. I still looks like new with 300 miles on it. He was spouting facts about it as well. The guy obviously has a great memory.

There were many Corvette special built cars for execs. that survived mainly because more people revered Corvettes from the beginning of them. They did not simply become just old cars that ended up in the junkyard like an A/C equipped 4 speed 440 car likely did.

The factory would build nearly anything a customer was willing to pay for to make a sale. There were only a coulpe of things for them to consider. If the parts were standard readily available but not necessarily available in a particular model they would build it if the customer would wait for the scheduling. If there was a concern that the special order may have a negative effect warrany wise for the corporation then likely it would not get built unless someone internally would approve it. Say a factory exec or corporate officer wanted a 4 speed 440 with A/V for themselves or a family memeber then it would get built. For the average customer off the street likely did not happen. In the case of the /6 manual trans 1966 Charger, why not? The Coronet built on the same platform was available that way. All the parts were available and a 4 speed fits the same bellhousing as a 3 speed.

What the factory would and would not do is pretty easy to figure out it is simple common sense as to what they would and would not do.

Ask Doug Hammer how many 69 Chargers he has on file that came from the factory with a 383 magnum and then try and find it as an option in any dealer info. It was supposed to be a Super Bee and RR engine only but there were a lot of them factory installed at the factory.

Posted By: VL21

Re: 440, 4-speed, A/C ? - 07/24/12 07:53 PM

Quote:

My bad. I said 318 he said V8 in the 65 Barracuda.

In the case of the /6 manual trans 1966 Charger, why not? The Coronet built on the same platform was available that way. All the parts were available and a 4 speed fits the same bellhousing as a 3 speed.

Now I'll buy the Barracuda story.
Still ain't buying the Charger story, and now not going for the Coronet one either. No 4spd even with the 318. 361 2bbl and up.
Barracuda had \6 4spd option tho in 64-65, not sure of 66. For some reason, I think this was dropped.

My dad was CPD dealer, '62-80, during my misspent youth. I was there.

Attached picture 7305986-codger.gif

Posted By: Paul_Fancsali

Re: 440, 4-speed, A/C ? - 07/24/12 08:00 PM

1966 Sport Fury 440 4spd and air factory was dual snorkle air cleaner engine saw it rode in it and almost bought it Know the right people and any combo is possible

Posted By: That AMC Guy

Re: 440, 4-speed, A/C ? - 07/24/12 08:24 PM

I caught up with my buddy and his Charger. It was born an automatic. My bad, everyone.

Posted By: JohnRR

Re: 440, 4-speed, A/C ? - 07/24/12 08:49 PM

Quote:

I caught up with my buddy and his Charger. It was born an automatic. My bad, everyone.

How about that power seat claim ???

Posted By: 696pack

Re: 440, 4-speed, A/C ? - 07/24/12 09:35 PM

Quote:

1966 Sport Fury 440 4spd and air factory was dual snorkle air cleaner engine saw it rode in it and almost bought it Know the right people and any combo is possible

Yes but in 1966 only a 350 h.p. engine was available which had the lower lift cam unlike the 383 H.P. and the 440s with same came that came in the 375 h.p.

The reason A/C was not available with 4 speed and high lift cam was because of problems with overreved compressors.

Posted By: VL21

Re: 440, 4-speed, A/C ? - 07/24/12 11:20 PM

Quote:

The reason A/C was not available with 4 speed and high lift cam was because of problems with overreved compressors.

Yes I agree, that was the reason given! Though I never agreed with it.

In 1973 we sold a Duster340, 4spd and air to a soldier who was going to be in Texas for a couple years.
Was a really neat car, buckets,console,dark green/white vinyl top white interior, rallyes,PS PDB etc pretty loaded up car for a Duster.
And even then a/c was sort of an oddity for us, in Vermont.

Took it back in trade a few years later, sold it to a deadbeat named Ricky Roberts who blew the engine.

Posted By: 69CoronetRT

Re: 440, 4-speed, A/C ? - 07/25/12 06:09 AM

Quote:

Yes but in 1966 only a 350 h.p. engine was available which had the lower lift cam unlike the 383 H.P. and the 440s with same came that came in the 375 h.p.

The reason A/C was not available with 4 speed and high lift cam was because of problems with overreved compressors.

D, a couple of thoughts.....

The 68-69 383 four speed A/C cars came with the 330 horse engine. Why couldn't the 440-four speed A/C cars come with the lower powered 440?

Compressor speed - couldn't that have been easily solved with a different size pulley?

383-4speed A/C car production is relatively small. There were a lot fewer 440 equipped cars. How large of a market could there have been for this combination? Would you have sold 10? 20? 100? a year?

Would it have been worth it (remember Chrysler was supposed to be a for profit business) to design, build, ship, store, inventory and promote the availability plus deal with any back end warranty or repair issues for a small run?

(Just to reminder, the only thing that made the 66 383 an "HP" was making it a 4-bbl. There wasn't an 383 335 HP variant in the B bodies until 68 nor the 440 HP cam until 67. No 375 horse 440 until 67. Just want to keep our engines straight to keep the thread on topic)

Posted By: Commando1

Re: 440, 4-speed, A/C ? - 07/25/12 12:23 PM

Quote:

1966 Sport Fury 440 4spd and air factory was dual snorkle air cleaner engine saw it rode in it and almost bought it Know the right people and any combo is possible

OK. I can't disagree that the factory never put in A/C with a 4 speed Fury BUT, I'm still 99.99% inclined to feel that the dealer installed it.

Posted By: 696pack

Re: 440, 4-speed, A/C ? - 07/25/12 06:19 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Yes but in 1966 only a 350 h.p. engine was available which had the lower lift cam unlike the 383 H.P. and the 440s with same came that came in the 375 h.p.

The reason A/C was not available with 4 speed and high lift cam was because of problems with overreved compressors.

D, a couple of thoughts.....

The 68-69 383 four speed A/C cars came with the 330 horse engine. Why couldn't the 440-four speed A/C cars come with the lower powered 440?

Compressor speed - couldn't that have been easily solved with a different size pulley?

383-4speed A/C car production is relatively small. There were a lot fewer 440 equipped cars. How large of a market could there have been for this combination? Would you have sold 10? 20? 100? a year?

Would it have been worth it (remember Chrysler was supposed to be a for profit business) to design, build, ship, store, inventory and promote the availability plus deal with any back end warranty or repair issues for a small run?

(Just to reminder, the only thing that made the 66 383 an "HP" was making it a 4-bbl. There wasn't an 383 335 HP variant in the B bodies until 68 nor the 440 HP cam until 67. No 375 horse 440 until 67. Just want to keep our engines straight to keep the thread on topic)

Doug, the quote you reference above was my answer to the availability of A/C with a 440 and a 4 speed on the C bodies which it WAS available and for the reason I stated. As you stated only the 350 h.p. 440 was available in 1966 and it had the lower revving cam.

At 18 years old in 1968 when I was selling Dodges new I was the exception to the rule in that I liked performance cars WITH A/C. I asked both our factory sales and srvice reps why the 4 spped A/C combo was not available on R/Ts and the answer was because of compressor problems. What else could it be? All of the componants were readily available and being used in other applications. Yes, it would be an easy fix with a different size pulley why they chose not to is anyones guess.

Posted By: 696pack

Re: 440, 4-speed, A/C ? - 07/25/12 06:23 PM

Quote:

Quote:

1966 Sport Fury 440 4spd and air factory was dual snorkle air cleaner engine saw it rode in it and almost bought it Know the right people and any combo is possible

OK. I can't disagree that the factory never put in A/C with a 4 speed Fury BUT, I'm still 99.99% inclined to feel that the dealer installed it.

It was not a matter of "Know the right people and any combo is possible" in this case because 440-4 speed-A/C WAS available. I still have a 1966 Dodge Dealer Data Book and there is nothing to state it was not available.

Posted By: 3hundred

Re: 440, 4-speed, A/C ? - 07/25/12 09:05 PM

Quote:

Compressor speed - couldn't that have been easily solved with a different size pulley?

I understood it to be a problem with sustained high RPM operation, like with a lower geared car. A different pulley would hurt low RPM A/C efficiency. Sustained high RPM operation a problem, true or not, I don't know.

Special ordering a car in a combination which was never engineered I think is a real long shot. Sometimes they wouldn't build things they documented were available together.

Robert

Posted By: 69CoronetRT

Re: 440, 4-speed, A/C ? - 07/25/12 11:14 PM

Quote:

I still have a 1966 Dodge Dealer Data Book and there is nothing to state it was not available.

True...there is nothing in the 66 Dodge data book that says it couldn't be ordered...but there really is no Standard/optional grid in that book like there are in other books. The '66 Plymouth book is very explicit.

Attached picture 7307676-66_66_Fury_AC_800.jpg

Attached picture 7307676-66_66_Fury_AC_800.jpg

Posted By: 69CoronetRT

Re: 440, 4-speed, A/C ? - 07/26/12 12:41 PM

Quote:

Then what was the rating? In 65 the 426 wedge was 365 and my understanding the 440 in 66 was downgraded to 350.

Posted By: Commando1

Re: 440, 4-speed, A/C ? - 07/26/12 01:11 PM

Quote:

The '66 Plymouth book is very explicit.

You beat me to the punch in posting that excerpt from the factory literature.
Yours is a little hard to read so excuse me if I make it more readable to the unconvinced but it needs to be driven home:

1965:

1966:

I repeat my original position: It was a 99.999% probability it was dealer installed unless you produce for me a build sheet that shows otherwise.

Now, for all you guys who foolishly INSIST that they have a 1974 440 with a steel crank FROM THE FACTORY....

Posted By: JohnRR

Re: 440, 4-speed, A/C ? - 07/26/12 02:26 PM

Quote:

I repeat my original position: It was a 99.999% probability it was dealer installed unless you produce for me a build sheet that shows otherwise.

Don't forget who you are dealing with , the doctor of deceit , he'll have that buildsheet for you in no time ...

Posted By: 69CoronetRT

Re: 440, 4-speed, A/C ? - 07/26/12 06:54 PM

Quote:

Quote:

The '66 Plymouth book is very explicit.

You beat me to the punch in posting that excerpt from the factory literature.
Yours is a little hard to read so excuse me if I make it more readable to the unconvinced but it needs to be driven home:

Now, for all you guys who foolishly INSIST that they have a 1974 440 with a steel crank FROM THE FACTORY....

Thanks. The board resized my picture. The full scan comes up when you click on the attachment.

I'm not sure I understand your comment about the 74 cast/forged crank. Could you explain a little more?

Posted By: 69CoronetRT

Re: 440, 4-speed, A/C ? - 07/26/12 07:00 PM

Quote:

I understood it to be a problem with sustained high RPM operation, like with a lower geared car. A different pulley would hurt low RPM A/C efficiency. Sustained high RPM operation a problem, true or not, I don't know.

A 440-4 would have come with 3.54 gears standard. A/C was available with 3.55s.

Was there something different about the pulleys or compressors used on a 3:55 gear car with A/C that couldn't be used with a car that had 3:54?

Is a compressor running on a 4,000 RPM car with 3:23s seeing something different than a car running 4,000 RPM with 3:54's?

Posted By: 696pack

Re: 440, 4-speed, A/C ? - 07/26/12 07:41 PM

Answering a few different things here.

1. Most of my experience comes from being in the new car business with Dodge from 1968-1974. I have had several old Plymouths over the years but basically rely on the factory info I have or have access to Which the majority is Dodge. I have nothing on Plymouth and know little about the minuet differences other than there were some from the two sister brands. This is apparently one of them with the availability of 440-4 speed-A/C. For Dodge they are specific to mention what the two 440s were available in and with what trans as well as very specific about what engine/trans combos A/C was NOT available with in this Data Book link.
http://www.hamtramck-historical.com/imag..._Monaco0020.jpg

2. As I stated previously in this thread my info on the availability of A/C with a 4 speed on a 375 h.p. car came from both the factory sales and service reps. I believe the concern was the very likely possibility of over-reving the engine and compressor with the manual trans as in missed shifts, etc. which is certainly not as apt to happen with an auto trans.

3. Thanks for the info on the h.p. ratings. Did that info come from pages 96/97 of the Data Book as I just noticed that page is missing from my book? I was not aware that the dual exhaust cars were rated at 365 h.p. and was only aware of the 350 h.p. rating of the single exhaust cars. The info above states the engine (s?) have a standard cam. Assuming they have the same cam and the exhaust is the only difference then why are they rated at different RPMs? Also, did the dual exhaust cars have hipo exhaust manifolds like the later 67 375 h.p. engines?

Posted By: 69CoronetRT

Re: 440, 4-speed, A/C ? - 07/26/12 11:34 PM

Quote:

Answering a few different things here.

1. Interesting. More research is required

2. Would a 440 over rev more than a 383? Not trying to be a jerk about this concept but everything that is mentioned about RPMs, gears and over reving a compressor with a 440...wouldn't the same thing have happened with a 383? Over reveing is over reving regardless of the CID.

3. Page 98

Posted By: VL21

Re: 440, 4-speed, A/C ? - 07/27/12 01:20 AM

Take a look at the rods in a V2 or RV2 compressor...then a 5 horse Briggs & Stratton...and then think about that compressor cycling in and out at 5k, I get their concern.
I always thought the GM compressor was a little tougher, and for some reason I think availability of a/c was better?

The police units cut the compressor out at full throttle, seems like something could have been done, but as posted above, a/c 4spd sales were a small pct of totals.

Attached picture 7309221-Catchillin.jpg

Posted By: Wagonmaster

Re: 440, 4-speed, A/C ? - 07/27/12 01:50 AM

I know a guy who has a HEMI in a 300 with factory RV-2 air conditioning and yes, it is a dual quad engine. Not a new car.

Posted By: 696pack

Re: 440, 4-speed, A/C ? - 07/27/12 03:36 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Answering a few different things here.

1. Interesting. More research is required

2. Would a 440 over rev more than a 383? Not trying to be a jerk about this concept but everything that is mentioned about RPMs, gears and over reving a compressor with a 440... wouldn't the same thing have happened with a 383? Over reveing is over reving regardless of the CID.

.Page 98

Yes, the same thing would happen with the 383/335 and that is the reason for a 330 h.p. (lower reving cam) in an A/C Bee or RR. In fact, the 383/335 is actually a higher reving engine stock than the 440.

Posted By: TX9H6E4CUDA

Re: 440, 4-speed, A/C ? - 07/27/12 10:35 AM

Quote:

The police units cut the compressor out at full throttle, seems like something could have been done

Is this true? I have a compressior off a 1976 Monaco squad and would like to hook that feature up on my bee. Was it when the compressor hit a certain rpm it shut off and was this a internal feature?

Posted By: Commando1

Re: 440, 4-speed, A/C ? - 07/27/12 12:20 PM

Quote:

I'm not sure I understand your comment about the 74 cast/forged crank. Could you explain a little more?

All 440's 1974 and up had cast cranks but there are those who insist that they...

Posted By: JohnRR

Re: 440, 4-speed, A/C ? - 07/27/12 03:01 PM

Quote:

Quote:

The police units cut the compressor out at full throttle, seems like something could have been done

Is this true? I have a compressior off a 1976 Monaco squad and would like to hook that feature up on my bee. Was it when the compressor hit a certain rpm it shut off and was this a internal feature?

It was not internal to the compressor but it's easy to do. All you need to do is add a switch to your throttle linkage that opens the line that engages the compressor clutch, which is what the factory did.

Posted By: 69CoronetRT

Re: 440, 4-speed, A/C ? - 07/27/12 06:39 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I'm not sure I understand your comment about the 74 cast/forged crank. Could you explain a little more?

All 440's 1974 and up had cast cranks but there are those who insist that they...

I know that parts books have mistakes. Are you saying the references to a forged crank in the 74 parts book is incorrect? They were never released? (Click on attachment for larger view)

Attached picture 7310043-74_Crankshafts_800.jpg

Attached picture 7310043-74_Crankshafts_800.jpg

Posted By: 69CoronetRT

Re: 440, 4-speed, A/C ? - 07/27/12 11:44 PM

Quote:

Yes, the same thing would happen with the 383/335 and that is the reason for a 330 h.p. (lower reving cam) in an A/C Bee or RR. In fact, the 383/335 is actually a higher reving engine stock than the 440.

Dave

Guys, I'm really not trying to be a jerk about this. But what changed in 1970 when you could get a 335- horse four speed A/C car? Was the compressor redesigned for 1970? If it was redesigned to handle the 383HP engine, why couldn't the same concept be adapted to the 440?

Posted By: 696pack

Re: 440, 4-speed, A/C ? - 07/28/12 02:34 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Yes, the same thing would happen with the 383/335 and that is the reason for a 330 h.p. (lower reving cam) in an A/C Bee or RR. In fact, the 383/335 is actually a higher reving engine stock than the 440.

Dave

Doug,
Per the 1970 Dodge Data Book it was NOT available with a 4 speed.
http://www.hamtramck-historical.com/images/dealerships/DealershipDataBook/1970/70_Coronet0022.jpg

Posted By: moparfan53

Re: 440, 4-speed, A/C ? - 07/28/12 03:47 AM

Quote:

Doug,
Per the 1970 Dodge Data Book it was NOT available with a 4 speed.
http://www.hamtramck-historical.com/images/dealerships/DealershipDataBook/1970/70_Coronet0022.jpg

However, the 70 Coronet dealer price list says a/c "N.A. w/4 Spd on R/T". That sounds as if it was available on a Super Bee/383 car.

http://www.hamtramck-historical.com/images/dealerships/SalesmansPocketGuides/1970/70_Coronet0003.jpg

Looks like more confusion for us from Ma Mopar!

EDIT:
Just noticed the engine section at the bottom of the data book page shows no a/c for 440 4spd combo but no such restriction for 383 engines. That seems to agree with the price list info.

http://www.hamtramck-historical.com/images/dealerships/DealershipDataBook/1970/70_Coronet0022.jpg

Posted By: 69CoronetRT

Re: 440, 4-speed, A/C ? - 07/28/12 05:25 AM

Quote:

Doug,
Per the 1970 Dodge Data Book it was NOT available with a 4 speed.

D, we know the data books are a pretty good resource but we also know there are mistakes and the books were updated. The combo was available in '70.

Attached picture 7310763-70_D21_H51.jpg

Posted By: TX9H6E4CUDA

Re: 440, 4-speed, A/C ? - 07/28/12 05:41 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

The police units cut the compressor out at full throttle, seems like something could have been done

Is this true? I have a compressior off a 1976 Monaco squad and would like to hook that feature up on my bee. Was it when the compressor hit a certain rpm it shut off and was this a internal feature?

It was not internal to the compressor but it's easy to do. All you need to do is add a switch to your throttle linkage that opens the line that engages the compressor clutch, which is what the factory did.

Thanks John you come through again with great info

Posted By: 696pack

Re: 440, 4-speed, A/C ? - 07/28/12 08:07 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Doug,
Per the 1970 Dodge Data Book it was NOT available with a 4 speed.

D, we know the data books are a pretty good resource but we also know there are mistakes and the books were updated. The combo was available in '70.

Yes, they were updated. Do you have an example of one that updated this combo becoming available?
I see you original FT example showing it which proves at least one was built. This comes full circle to the origin of this post regarding the availability of 440-4 speed-A/C. Althought you FT example is a 383 Super Bee but follows right along with this entire discussion/senario. That is a very heavily equipped Super Bee. The very kind of car we saw new that factory execs or their kids were driving. Could this have been one built for them with something NOT available per the Data Book or was the book changed so anyone could order it? Do you have any other examples of this being available?

Also regarding the "N" engine code in the V.I.N. there has always been confusion as to it true meaning as to h.p.
They made 3 different 383s but only show 2 different V.I.N. codes, 383-2 and 383-4. however we know that there are 2 different 383-4s, the 330 and 335 h.p. Without a B.S. you can never be sure how the car was actually built with regard to which cam it had. If you have the original untouched engine in the car that is a different thing but that is rare in these 40+ year old cars.

Posted By: 69CoronetRT

Re: 440, 4-speed, A/C ? - 07/28/12 11:09 PM

Quote:

Do you have any other examples of this being available?

Here's an interesting one...

Three speed A/C convertible

Attached picture 7311490-70_D13_H51_800.jpg

Posted By: 69CoronetRT

Re: 440, 4-speed, A/C ? - 07/28/12 11:22 PM

Charger

Attached picture 7311502-XP29_D21_H51_800.jpg

Posted By: WyleECoyote

Re: 440, 4-speed, A/C ? - 07/29/12 12:00 AM

71 Charger 500, 383 4-speed with A/C, 323's. 1 of 182.

Posted By: dustergirl340

Re: 440, 4-speed, A/C ? - 07/29/12 12:12 AM

How about a '73 SSP with a 400 4-speed, A/C, and power windows?

Posted By: 696pack

Re: 440, 4-speed, A/C ? - 07/29/12 06:08 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Do you have any other examples of this being available?

Here's an interesting one...

Three speed A/C convertible

Yeah but that is a Satelitte and it would be a 330 h.p.

Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms

Re: 440, 4-speed, A/C ? - 07/29/12 06:17 AM

This is the second case I have heard of it. I have never seen one in person but don't doubt there may have been a few built. It likely would have been at the request of a high level factory executive that wanted one for themselves. They got what they wanted even if they would not built one for the public. Certainly all of the components were factory assembly line readily available so it would not be a big deal to do.

If the car has a broadcast sheet that will tell you if it was factory built.

Really Daryl? What if the car in question has one of your bogus home made Broadcast Sheets? Heck anything's possible right?

Posted By: 6bblgt

Re: 440, 4-speed, A/C ? - 07/29/12 06:22 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Do you have any other examples of this being available?

Here's an interesting one...

Three speed A/C convertible

Yeah but that is a Satelitte and it would be a 330 h.p.

Not quite:
all 1970 383 4bbl engines with manual transmissions are "orange/Holley" 383HP (335hp)
all 1970 Challenger R/T, 'Cuda, Charger, Super Bee, Road Runner 383s are "orange/Holley" 383HP (335hp)
NO (ZERO) 1970 c-bodies with 383HP (335hp)

..... but that's another thread

anyone with proof of that factory 440 4-spd MOPAR with A/C, yet?

Posted By: 69CoronetRT

Re: 440, 4-speed, A/C ? - 07/29/12 07:36 AM

Quote:

Not quite:
all 1970 383 4bbl engines with manual transmissions are "orange/Holley" 383HP (335hp)
all 1970 Challenger R/T, 'Cuda, Charger, Super Bee, Road Runner 383s are "orange/Holley" 383HP (335hp)
NO (ZERO) 1970 c-bodies with 383HP (335hp)

Thanks Dan. That is why I posted:

Quote:

But what changed in 1970 when you could get a 335- horse four speed A/C car? Was the compressor redesigned for 1970? If it was redesigned to handle the 383HP engine, why couldn't the same concept be adapted to the 440?

Chrysler engineers were pretty smart people. If the Head Office or Sales said they wanted something, I'm pretty sure they could have figured out a way to make it work.

If people take the side "you could get anything you wanted" and believe these cars existed, then the engineering work WAS ALREADY done and the combination could have easily been offered to the general public. Yet...it wasn't.

Just my opinion, but I don't think the 440-4 speed was not offered because of some compressor/cam/gearing issue. If the engineers figured out a way to make it work with a 383, I'm reasonably sure they could do the same for the 440.

Posted By: 6bblgt

Re: 440, 4-speed, A/C ? - 07/29/12 08:12 AM

The vast majority of 383 4-spd cars with A/C are 3.23 geared.

I've heard but have no proof, which is why I've refrained until now to add it to this fantasy witch hunt for cars Chrysler didn't build. Chrysler didn't want to deal with A/C compressor warranty issues arising from high RPM decel on 440 4-spd vehicles, most with 3.54 gears. Decel having more "violent" RPM changes than accel.

In the '60s 440 4-spd cars were "race cars" for the street not cruisers that most owners wanted W/O power steering, power brakes, or A/C.

Chrysler execs had "company cars" for short periods of time. Wild, exoticly optioned factory assembly line built exec cars do not exist.

Posted By: 696pack

Re: 440, 4-speed, A/C ? - 07/29/12 07:07 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Do you have any other examples of this being available?

Here's an interesting one...

Three speed A/C convertible

Yeah but that is a Satelitte and it would be a 330 h.p.

Not quite:
all 1970 383 4bbl engines with manual transmissions are "orange/Holley" 383HP (335hp) all 1970 Challenger R/T, 'Cuda, Charger, Super Bee, Road Runner 383s are "orange/Holley" 383HP (335hp)
NO (ZERO) 1970 c-bodies with 383HP (335hp)

..... but that's another thread

anyone with proof of that factory 440 4-spd MOPAR with A/C, yet?

And how can you PROVE that?

I am looking at GGs white book that shows an E63 sales code for ALL 383-4 regardless of 330 or 3435 h.p. In fact it shows the 330 h.p. for B bodies with A/C for 69-70. You can not tell by the fender tag or V.I.N. if a car was a 330 or a 335 h.p.

Factory exec car could be kept for years and some were. If they wanted something special they got it (within reason) and they didn't care how long they were going to keep the car.

It was the factory cars used by the sales and service reps that got turned over quickly depending on the miles. Some that had a big territory only had a car for 3 months others a full year.

Posted By: JohnRR

Re: 440, 4-speed, A/C ? - 07/29/12 10:03 PM

Quote:

And how can you PROVE that?

A lot easier than the fairy tales you've been throwing around ...

Posted By: 69CoronetRT

Re: 440, 4-speed, A/C ? - 07/29/12 10:58 PM

Quote:

And how can you PROVE that?

D, one of the good and bad things about Moparts is that much of the conventional wisdom about what is or has been 'known' or printed through the years is questioned. Many myths and legends have been torn to shreds on this board through proof.

I like that those who post things that are outside of 'conventional wisdom' are required to provide proof of things. Mere assertions are not taken lightly here.

If people have proof, not speculation, of a 440-4-A/C car...Great. Post it for the world to see. Don't be selfish. Make all of us smarter.

The issue at hand has nothing to do with VIN or sales codes but engine assembly codes.

The actual application of the B body 383 non-HP and HP produced from 68-70 varies by year and model making it very difficult to make sweeping statements as to what did and didn't come in which model without getting tied up in cumbersome explainations. ("HP only in RR's and Super Bees" We know that to be untrue in 69 and 70 through documentation).

The Charger BS I posted above comes from such independent research. The engine has been documented as being an HP engine and is orange. (This is contrary to GG's Part and casting number book (Vol II; pg 98) showing this combination as blue).

I believe the 1970 engine assembly code 084 was the B body 335HP four speed A/C application. I honestly do not mind learning something new if people have evidence that proves it is not.

The BS above clearly shows carb 36 indicating a Holley, which Dan addressed.

Do we need to open up the discussion as to whether or not the 70 383-HP came with a Holley or AVS? That would help solve part of the questions raised.

Quote:

You can not tell by the fender tag or V.I.N. if a car was a 330 or a 335 h.p.

Remember, you can see the engine assembly on a 69 and 70 LR tag.

Posted By: DPelletier

Re: 440, 4-speed, A/C ? - 07/30/12 04:16 PM

Quote:

The vast majority of 383 4-spd cars with A/C are 3.23 geared.

I've heard but have no proof, which is why I've refrained until now to add it to this fantasy witch hunt for cars Chrysler didn't build. Chrysler didn't want to deal with A/C compressor warranty issues arising from high RPM decel on 440 4-spd vehicles, most with 3.54 gears. Decel having more "violent" RPM changes than accel.

In the '60s 440 4-spd cars were "race cars" for the street not cruisers that most owners wanted W/O power steering, power brakes, or A/C.

Chrysler execs had "company cars" for short periods of time. Wild, exoticly optioned factory assembly line built exec cars do not exist.

pretty much my thoughts as well. Sure you might have been able to order a 383 with a 4spd, A/C and 3.55's...but the vast majority were 3.23 cars and all 440 4spds were 3.54's or better. I believe the compressor explanation but it doesn't need to be perfect, someone just figured that they'd have far less warranty claims if they eliminated A/C on the 440-4spd cars.

I agree that the theory that 383 4spd AC cars with optional rears would pose as much of an issue with compressor reliability as would 440 4spd cars....but I think the assumption that because one was available, the other must be is erroneous. For whatever reason Chrysler figured it was in their best interest to forbid the 440hp 4spd AC combo....probably because the 440 had a steeper base gear and because it was deemed to be a higher performance engine.

Dave

Posted By: dangina

Re: 440, 4-speed, A/C ? - 07/31/12 06:20 AM

I know I'm gonna get harrassed but here goes. I'll stick my neck out. My dad owned a weird special edition 72 roadrunner. Not a SSP clone or GTX. Roadrunner. Fully loaded. 440, 4 speed, A/C, 2:76 gears(original owner traveled long distances and ordered it this way), power steering, power brakes, front disk brakes, white interior with black carpet, power windows, tinted windows, am/fm radio, rear spoiler, rear defogger, slotted exhaust tips, came from the windsor ontario plant when we lived down there, end up selling it in 84 for $900 during the oil crisis when you couldn't give muscle cars away. The ontario winters ate the bottom half of the car which my dad and his buddy fixed and painted yellow and black. I Believe it was a plum crazy car, dad was second owner...I don't have proof as I was 4 back then lol

Posted By: JohnRR

Re: 440, 4-speed, A/C ? - 07/31/12 12:03 PM

Quote:

I know I'm gonna get harrassed but here goes. I'll stick my neck out. My dad owned a weird special edition 72 roadrunner. Not a SSP clone or GTX. Roadrunner. Fully loaded. 440, 4 speed, A/C, 2:76 gears(original owner traveled long distances and ordered it this way), power steering, power brakes, front disk brakes, white interior with black carpet, power windows, tinted windows, am/fm radio, rear spoiler, rear defogger, slotted exhaust tips, came from the windsor ontario plant when we lived down there, end up selling it in 84 for $900 during the oil crisis when you couldn't give muscle cars away. The ontario winters ate the bottom half of the car which my dad and his buddy fixed and painted yellow and black. I Believe it was a plum crazy car, dad was second owner...I don't have proof as I was 4 back then lol

Was your Dad CEO of Chrysler back then ?

Posted By: DPelletier

Re: 440, 4-speed, A/C ? - 07/31/12 04:15 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I know I'm gonna get harrassed but here goes. I'll stick my neck out. My dad owned a weird special edition 72 roadrunner. Not a SSP clone or GTX. Roadrunner. Fully loaded. 440, 4 speed, A/C, 2:76 gears(original owner traveled long distances and ordered it this way), power steering, power brakes, front disk brakes, white interior with black carpet, power windows, tinted windows, am/fm radio, rear spoiler, rear defogger, slotted exhaust tips, came from the windsor ontario plant when we lived down there, end up selling it in 84 for $900 during the oil crisis when you couldn't give muscle cars away. The ontario winters ate the bottom half of the car which my dad and his buddy fixed and painted yellow and black. I Believe it was a plum crazy car, dad was second owner...I don't have proof as I was 4 back then lol

Was your Dad CEO of Chrysler back then ?

...I'm no '71 and up expert, but if memory serves;

- there is the 440/4spd/A/C thing
- all 440 cars were GTX's
- no 2.76 gears available (lowest was 3.23)
- no plum crazy in 1972

Did I miss anything?

Dave

Posted By: Moparlar

Re: 440, 4-speed, A/C ? - 07/31/12 04:29 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

I know I'm gonna get harrassed but here goes. I'll stick my neck out. My dad owned a weird special edition 72 roadrunner. Not a SSP clone or GTX. Roadrunner. Fully loaded. 440, 4 speed, A/C, 2:76 gears(original owner traveled long distances and ordered it this way), power steering, power brakes, front disk brakes, white interior with black carpet, power windows, tinted windows, am/fm radio, rear spoiler, rear defogger, slotted exhaust tips, came from the windsor ontario plant when we lived down there, end up selling it in 84 for $900 during the oil crisis when you couldn't give muscle cars away. The ontario winters ate the bottom half of the car which my dad and his buddy fixed and painted yellow and black. I Believe it was a plum crazy car, dad was second owner...I don't have proof as I was 4 back then lol

Was your Dad CEO of Chrysler back then ?

...I'm no '71 and up expert, but if memory serves;

- there is the 440/4spd/A/C thing
- all 440 cars were GTX's
- no 2.76 gears available (lowest was 3.23)
- no plum crazy in 1972

Did I miss anything?

Dave

No Spoiler in 72 and actually the only rear end for a 440 4 speed in 72 was a 3.54 dana.

Posted By: DPelletier

Re: 440, 4-speed, A/C ? - 07/31/12 04:37 PM

Posted By: DPelletier

Re: 440, 4-speed, A/C ? - 07/31/12 04:39 PM

Posted By: DPelletier

Re: 440, 4-speed, A/C ? - 07/31/12 04:41 PM

...thanks to Barry Washington and Hamtramck Historical

Posted By: 318 Stroker

Re: 440, 4-speed, A/C ? - 07/31/12 04:45 PM

Quote:

400 6 bbl ???

The plot thickens...

Posted By: DPelletier

Re: 440, 4-speed, A/C ? - 07/31/12 04:46 PM

Posted By: Moparlar

Re: 440, 4-speed, A/C ? - 07/31/12 05:20 PM

Quote:

400 6 bbl ???

The plot thickens...

If you are refering to the A/C Line I am sure that is just a misprint

Posted By: DPelletier

Re: 440, 4-speed, A/C ? - 07/31/12 06:02 PM

Quote:

Quote:

400 6 bbl ???

The plot thickens...

If you are refering to the A/C Line I am sure that is just a misprint

He's just

.... I knew about the 3.54's being the highest gear on the dana cars, I was thinking that the 3.23's were the highest on a RR regardless of engine or tranny but it looks like you could order 2.76's on a 400 auto RR.

Dave

Posted By: 318 Stroker

Re: 440, 4-speed, A/C ? - 07/31/12 06:45 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

400 6 bbl ???

The plot thickens...

If you are refering to the A/C Line I am sure that is just a misprint

He's just

Who, me?

Posted By: sunroofgtx

Re: 440, 4-speed, A/C ? - 07/31/12 07:01 PM

Just throwing this out there. I just bought a 71 SSP, N code, 4 speed with A/C !! 3.23 SG. Love to see how many 71 SSP 4 speeds were shipped. Could not have been that many with A/C ! What tires were standard with the N code 4 speeds? Thanks.

Posted By: Moparlar

Re: 440, 4-speed, A/C ? - 07/31/12 08:25 PM

F78x14 Blackwall

Posted By: Commando1

Re: 440, 4-speed, A/C ? - 08/01/12 02:51 PM

Quote:

Quote:

400 6 bbl ???

The plot thickens...

If you are refering to the A/C Line I am sure that is just a misprint

Someone will STILL swear they saw /had one.
Then a nasty fight will break out.
Then someone will say "Never say never"
Then....

Posted By: DPelletier

Re: 440, 4-speed, A/C ? - 08/01/12 04:05 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

400 6 bbl ???

The plot thickens...

If you are refering to the A/C Line I am sure that is just a misprint

Someone will STILL swear they saw /had one.
Then a nasty fight will break out.
Then someone will say "Never say never"
Then....

No, they'll swear that their uncle bought one that he purchased from a little old lady in 1974 and despite the fact that the car had headers, shackles, mags, fuzzy dice and a mural of naked lady riding a dragon on the hood, there is NO WAY that the 6 pack could have been added. Conveniently, the car and all documentation was burned in a garage fire back in 1978, but it existed, I tell you!!

Dave

Posted By: Commando1

Re: 440, 4-speed, A/C ? - 08/02/12 02:12 PM

Quote:

No, they'll swear that their uncle bought one that he purchased from a little old lady in 1974 and despite the fact that the car had headers, shackles, mags, fuzzy dice and a mural of naked lady riding a dragon on the hood, there is NO WAY that the 6 pack could have been added. Conveniently, the car and all documentation was burned in a garage fire back in 1978, but it existed, I tell you!!

Say: "AMEN" to that, brother.

Posted By: RoadRunnerJD

Re: 440, 4-speed, A/C ? - 08/11/12 05:17 AM

I am certain that there were cars produced with special options that John Q public could not get. There is a white original owner 63 MW automatic Plymouth with factory air in Madison, Va that was an executive order car according to what the original owner told me. His brother owned the local Chrysler Plymouth dealership and he was service manager. The car is still around. When I saw it in the late 80's, it had the factory exhaust cutouts and they were rusty like you would expect to see on a daily driver. They also had an A4 A12 Runner with 1100 original miles on it. I bought the G70's out of his basement back in 1990 or so. The Hemi convertible Runner that I found in Florida was originally owned by a fellow who owned a dealership. His nephew told me that his deceased uncle, who was a multi-millionaire, had owned a few executive order high performance car combinations that you could not buy in the showroom.

Posted By: Commando1

Re: 440, 4-speed, A/C ? - 08/12/12 02:08 PM

Quote:

The Hemi convertible Runner that I found in Florida was originally owned by a fellow who owned a dealership. His nephew told me that his deceased uncle, who was a multi-millionaire, had owned a few executive order high performance car combinations that you could not buy in the showroom.

Was this gentleman who hid his collection very discreetly in Sanford, FL?

Posted By: 69CoronetRT

Re: 440, 4-speed, A/C ? - 08/12/12 11:43 PM

Quote:

I am certain that there were cars produced with special options that John Q public could not get.

Great story. Interesting car.

Any picture of a fender tag or BS?

Posted By: tilt

Re: 440, 4-speed, A/C ? - 04/29/17 08:50 PM

Just found a carb with the number 4617 SA

Sorry for digging this up from the grave.

Now if i could figure out how to post a pic from an Android.

Posted By: Sunroofcuda

Re: 440, 4-speed, A/C ? - 04/29/17 11:55 PM

Originally Posted By RamblerMan

I caught up with my buddy and his Charger. It was born an automatic. My bad, everyone.

VERY bad! Shame on you!

Posted By: Bull1tt

Re: 440, 4-speed, A/C ? - 04/30/17 03:40 AM

Originally Posted By RoadRunnerJD

,

That's bull. Every Max Wedge car has been documented with exactly what options, color paint, interior, transmission, and compression ratio. If there was an air conditioned Max Wedge car ever built, it would by now, been featured in every automotive publication out there on this planet and the ones on Mars as well!
You can lump in all the 440 four speed air conditioned cars in there as well. None exist on this planet..

Posted By: Bull1tt

Re: 440, 4-speed, A/C ? - 04/30/17 03:56 AM

If there were cars produced with options that John Q Public couldn't buy, where are they now?
Even some of the Turbine cars ended up in John Q's garage.. Even concept cars wound up with the public. So where are these "specially optioned" today? I should have seen one in a magazine by now. Who is hiding them all? But more importantly, how???

Posted By: Diego (not Ted)

Re: 440, 4-speed, A/C ? - 05/04/17 06:33 AM

Originally Posted By Bull1tt

Even some of the Turbine cars ended up in John Q's garage..

Like 40 years after the fact.

Posted By: 62maxwgn

Re: 440, 4-speed, A/C ? - 05/04/17 04:40 PM

The original air cleaner from my bird before I changed it,why ?

Posted By: 6bblgt

Re: 440, 4-speed, A/C ? - 05/04/17 07:56 PM

Originally Posted By 62maxwgn

The original air cleaner from my bird before I changed it,why ?

not an original 1970 air cleaner - the mid-'90s Mopar Performance issue with an A/C compressor clearance notch

Posted By: 62maxwgn

Re: 440, 4-speed, A/C ? - 05/04/17 09:14 PM

Originally Posted By 6bblgt

Originally Posted By 62maxwgn

The original air cleaner from my bird before I changed it,why ?

not an original 1970 air cleaner - the mid-'90s Mopar Performance issue with an A/C compressor clearance notch

But,I bought the car in 1982 !

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