Moparts

wierd question about frame connectors

Posted By: mikemee1331

wierd question about frame connectors - 07/02/12 11:20 PM

frame connectors are supposed to stop the body from twisting under hard acceration, right? where does that engery go? it has to be transfered somewhere, does it go to the springs? does it stay up front?
Posted By: Secret Chimp

Re: wierd question about frame connectors - 07/03/12 12:06 AM

It would be channeled to the suspension, yes. Stiffening your car effectively lowers your spring rates since the body is absorbing less of the forces transmitted through the wheels.
Posted By: mikemee1331

Re: wierd question about frame connectors - 07/03/12 12:32 AM

interesting, i thought the twisting was caused by the engine 'lifting' that side of the car not the wheels??
Posted By: HemiRick

Re: wierd question about frame connectors - 07/03/12 12:50 AM

The engine twisting the car energy would go into making the car go faster once the car was stiffer.

But the twisting car also gets the energy back as the car untwists.
Posted By: slantzilla

Re: wierd question about frame connectors - 07/03/12 01:10 AM

Quote:

interesting, i thought the twisting was caused by the engine 'lifting' that side of the car not the wheels??




Part of it is also from th pinion trying to climb the ring gear.
Posted By: mikemee1331

Re: wierd question about frame connectors - 07/03/12 01:14 AM

do the connectors serve to evenly distribute that energy? does it stop the drivers side of the engine from lifting that side of the car? isn't that what is actually causing the body twist?
Posted By: slantzilla

Re: wierd question about frame connectors - 07/04/12 02:27 AM

Quote:

do the connectors serve to evenly distribute that energy? does it stop the drivers side of the engine from lifting that side of the car? isn't that what is actually causing the body twist?




What they do is stiffen the car so it distributes the load more evenly.

As far as motor torque, put the car in low and power brake it as high as you can. That is the amount the motor itself is twisting the car. Launch the car and you will see the rest of the effects of the pinion climbing the ring gear, and it's transmission to the rest of the car through the rear springs.
Posted By: Challenger 1

Re: wierd question about frame connectors - 07/04/12 02:52 AM

I don't understand your question
The rear springs front hangers is what takes the punishment from accellrating your car. They are usually reinforced and tied into the frame connectors.
Frame connectors are for handling too, even more so if you ask me. There's a nice gain by using them for a street car. Your car will be so much tighter.
Posted By: mikemee1331

Re: wierd question about frame connectors - 07/04/12 12:29 PM

ok, i'm thinking i understand - the twisting is caused more so by the rear of the car trying to move forward. it happens to the drivers side because the engine also causes twist on that side. by adding connectors the energy is transferred/distributed more evenly across the rear via the springs, right? what is the result of that? a firmer tire plant or is that what causes both sides of the front to lift (wheelie) instead of just the drivers side?
Posted By: VL21

Re: wierd question about frame connectors - 07/04/12 02:13 PM

Not an engineer or drag racer, but here is my take on it.
Even in a stock vehicle, torque tries to twist the body, left front up.
In most cars the body absorbs this by flexing, sort of why there is all those squeaks and groans in a well used car.
Any stiffening of the body will work to transfer this twist to the right rear (opposite corner). Watch a stock body leave the line. I have seen some leave/twist enough to crack a windshield.
Stiffen things up, the twist goes away, the front of the car rises, rears are planted more squarely.
The energy is being now transferred into lifting the front as the body tries to rotate around the axle. Dissipated when the front settles.
The tighter things are the more of your torque is used to make things move.
Cornering energy sort of the same thing, taking the twist out will help plant the tires and make the suspension work. The energy comes from the compressing suspension...
Had an old Impala winter beater once that was so loose it broke the windshield just banging snow banks...of course that was due to advanced state of slow combustion, aka rust.

I'm sure I missed something...and just as sure someone will straighten me out.
Posted By: mikemee1331

Re: wierd question about frame connectors - 07/04/12 02:22 PM

Quote:

Not an engineer or drag racer, but here is my take on it.
Even in a stock vehicle, torque tries to twist the body, left front up.
In most cars the body absorbs this by flexing, sort of why there is all those squeaks and groans in a well used car.
Any stiffening of the body will work to transfer this twist to the right rear (opposite corner). Watch a stock body leave the line. I have seen some leave/twist enough to crack a windshield.
Stiffen things up, the twist goes away, the front of the car rises, rears are planted more squarely.
The energy is being now transferred into lifting the front as the body tries to rotate around the axle. Dissipated when the front settles.
The tighter things are the more of your torque is used to make things move.
Cornering energy sort of the same thing, taking the twist out will help plant the tires and make the suspension work. The energy comes from the compressing suspension...
Had an old Impala winter beater once that was so loose it broke the windshield just banging snow banks...of course that was due to advanced state of slow combustion, aka rust.

I'm sure I missed something...and just as sure someone will straighten me out.


this is exactly what i thought would happen and if both of us are wrong i'm sure someone will chime in..... nicely
Posted By: slantzilla

Re: wierd question about frame connectors - 07/04/12 03:24 PM

Actually, stiffening the body pushes the twist forward. That's why a car with good connectors and a cage will pull the wheels level instead of left higher.
Posted By: mikemee1331

Re: wierd question about frame connectors - 07/04/12 04:10 PM

Quote:

Actually, stiffening the body pushes the twist forward. That's why a car with good connectors and a cage will pull the wheels level instead of left higher.


interesting, i wondered why some seem more level/straighter than others. the next part of my question is real vague but i'll ask. at what point (1/4 mile time) is it more important to have connectors? a 14 sec car would have little to no use for this mod and probably not 13 to 12. but a low 12 to high 11 car would benefit? reason for ask is my car is currently a mid 12 car,b-body, 3500lbs, with 29x15x15 tires. i've made changes that i hope will put me in the high 11's. would i see enough of a benefit to justify the cost for something i might do once or twice a year?
Posted By: slantzilla

Re: wierd question about frame connectors - 07/04/12 05:34 PM

The biggest benefit you'll get from it is that you will not beat your car up so badly. Any time a car leaves hard enough to extend the front suspension all the way it will eventually wrinkle/bend the car.

I wrinkled the roof on a 340/auto Challenger that was a low 14 second car after I put slicks on it.
Posted By: buildanother

Re: wierd question about frame connectors - 07/04/12 06:10 PM

That's right, the harder the car runs and the more traction it has, makes the twist action more apparent. It's about the engine wanting to twist itself right out of the frame system while the slicks are biting, and everything in between needs to hold up.
Posted By: jcc

Re: wierd question about frame connectors - 07/04/12 06:51 PM

You might want do a search on the topic. It has been beat to death. No one has ever made a definitive case as to what frame frame connectors actually do IMO. EVERYONE has a opinion. There are many forces acting in concert here. Twist/chassis torque certainty is one, and frame connectors IMO really don't do a good job of resisting the twist, help, but a poor solution, and certainly better then nothing. Twist would be best resisted by a 5'? diameter tube (obviously impractical), and 2 2x2 or 2x3 tubes on one face of a rectangular box are not an efficient design to resist chassis twist. But to answer your question where do forces go, if the chassis does not absorb them, they remain useful in accelerating the chassis. The chassis will release only some of the stored twist if its beyond elastic state, but unless its a 100% efficient spring, (its not) some energy will be converted to heat as the chassis bends/twist, and will not given back as the power comes down, but this is likley splitting hairs.
Posted By: mikemee1331

Re: wierd question about frame connectors - 07/04/12 07:02 PM

thanks everyone! i have a better understanding now. JCC - i did do a search and was overwhelmed with info i didn't need.
Posted By: bonefish

Re: wierd question about frame connectors - 07/04/12 09:17 PM

i put conecters on my B-body and my 60 improved and my doors shut better.
Posted By: Reggie

Re: wierd question about frame connectors - 07/05/12 12:14 AM

Had a bunch of Chevy street race buddies years ago that would drop healthy big blocks in Novas with no frame reinforcement. They would run them until body twist made the windshields crack and the steering go wacky, then they would switch everything over to the next lucky candidates and start over.
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: wierd question about frame connectors - 07/05/12 05:19 AM

The bolt in front stub frames of the Gm cars are pretty funky looking. It seems that a bolt in frame connector is the only option.
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: wierd question about frame connectors - 07/05/12 06:44 AM

there are some law of physcics that come into play, one of them is the law that says for every action there is a equal and opposite reaction The drive shaft rotates clockwise looking from the front of the car,or CCWlooking from the rear of the car driving the left side(drivers) tire into the ground, the right side of the axle gets lifted up allowing it let the passenger side tire spin, if it is not a spool. That also transfer energy to the left front at the same time When the leaf spring is hit with the accelertion and twisting of the axles and housing it trys to lift the back of the car up, which helps lift the front up at the same time. A good set of sub frame connectors will help do all of that better BTW, you may or may not see a measurable difference in 60 ft times,but I would look real closley at the reaction times before and after
Posted By: TC@HP2

Re: wierd question about frame connectors - 07/05/12 04:48 PM

Quote:

frame connectors are supposed to stop the body from twisting under hard acceration, right?




Actually this is incorrect. Subframe connectors resist beam bending of the chassis. That is the action of arching the middle of the car up. Back in the late 60s, early 70s, Mopars were getting the power planted pretty equally using SS springs, yet they were tearing up C pillers, quarter panels, and rear windows. Subframe connectors were developed to resist this bending motion for stock chassised applications.

Quote:


Stiffen things up, the twist goes away, the front of the car rises, rears are planted more squarely.
The energy is being now transferred into lifting the front as the body tries to rotate around the axle. Dissipated when the front settles.
The tighter things are the more of your torque is used to make things move.





This is a good nut shell summary of the benefit. Although mopars tend to not twist as badly as coil sprung cars.

Quote:

at what point (1/4 mile time) is it more important to have connectors? a 14 sec car would have little to no use for this mod and probably not 13 to 12. but a low 12 to high 11 car would benefit?




Any point. The additional stiffening is a benefit even if the car never hits the track. Reducing flex allows body panel gaps to remain more consistent, reduces rattles, allows windows to seal better, and provides a more stable cornering platform. Suffice it to say the benefits are many and varied
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