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Running hot and running out of ideas 67 Belvedere

Posted By: Belvedere1

Running hot and running out of ideas 67 Belvedere - 05/03/12 01:47 AM

Ive never been really satisfied with the way the cooling system has performed and now that its warming up here (Phoenix) the engine temps seem to be creeping higher. Here is what I am working with: 67 Belvedere, 451, 10.5:1, Edelbrock heads, the block was cleaned three times during the machining process and a final cleaning before assembly so all the passages are clear, the 26" radiator was cleaned by a radiator shop prior to the new motor going in. I have ran a 7 blade flex fan and currently running a factory 7 blade clutch fan with a new Hayden clutch. The fan clutch is sitting 7/8" - 1" away from the radiator and using a factory shroud. 16 lb Chrysler radiator cap. The last time I drove it the temp was about 92 or so and going down the highway was running about 200 deg and then to 220 after getting off the freeway and pulling into the cruise in. I was running a Robertshaw 180 stat and have since replaced that with a Mr. Gasket high flow 180 stat with no real drop in temp. Distilled water and water wetter. The lower radiator hose has the spring inside so that should not be collapsing.

I also run a trans cooler to help with running a 9.5 torque converter. I do not think it is a lean issue with the carb or timing because it pulls way too hard and strong. Not sure what else to try at this point as I dont think I need to resort to electric fans and that sort of thing.
Posted By: mikemee1331

Re: Running hot and running out of ideas 67 Belvedere - 05/03/12 01:53 AM

what type of water pump housing is it? i'm guessing aluminum? there were issues with the inlet being too small.
Posted By: Challenger 1

Re: Running hot and running out of ideas 67 Belvedere - 05/03/12 02:05 AM

It sounds like you have all the right stuff.

Even though you are happy with the way it runs, the solution your looking for, lies in the tune up. It could be better and your car will run cooler.

Richen it up and see, it can't hurt and I bet helps on the highway.
Posted By: Belvedere1

Re: Running hot and running out of ideas 67 Belvedere - 05/03/12 02:05 AM

Its a factory cast iron housing and factory pump. It was cleaned at the same time as the radiator. Also have the heater hose ports plugged, no heater box.
Posted By: JohnRR

Re: Running hot and running out of ideas 67 Belvedere - 05/03/12 02:07 AM

Quote:

what type of water pump housing is it? i'm guessing aluminum? there were issues with the inlet being too small.




the bigger question is what water pump , the CCJ housing even though it has restricted flow was not found to be a real huge problem , the CCJ pump is a different story .

Also your 26" rad , 2 row or 3 ?
Posted By: stumpy

Re: Running hot and running out of ideas 67 Belvedere - 05/03/12 02:12 AM

What's the timing set at?
Posted By: Belvedere1

Re: Running hot and running out of ideas 67 Belvedere - 05/03/12 02:17 AM

3 row rad

20 deg intial. .520/254 solid. Dist is locked, slots welded. I dont recall the total #.
Posted By: JohnRR

Re: Running hot and running out of ideas 67 Belvedere - 05/03/12 02:19 AM

Quote:

3 row rad

20 deg intial. .520/254 solid. Dist is locked, slots welded. I dont recall the total #.




Distributor is locked meaning no mechanical advance ? if so there is your problem , all you have is 20 degrees ...
Posted By: DAYCLONA

Re: Running hot and running out of ideas 67 Belvedere - 05/03/12 02:32 AM

Not too much information on the timing your running, or what type of dist/ignition, or the method of advance...same with the carb?, a lean condition can cause unnecessary heat? what are you doing to determine a lean/rich condition?.....seat of the pants feel is not a good lean/rich indicator, plug readings?, O2 readings?...



As far as the mechanical end, IMHO I'd toss the clutch fan, run a factory 7 blade HD fixed fan, the space between the fan to radiator is not as important as how much blade area is inside the shroud, you should have at least 50%-75% of the fan buried inside the shroud for a proper pull, play around with different spacers to achieve the proper spacing, make sure you try and maintain at least 1" or more away from the radiator, as fixed fan blades at high RPMs can "flex" outward towards the radiator...

As far as the Chemical end, I'd recommend ZEREX G-05 Antifreeze, distilled water 50/50 mix, and 8-10 oz. of REDLINE water wetter
Posted By: RSNOMO

Re: Running hot and running out of ideas 67 Belvedere - 05/03/12 02:36 AM

I have virtually the same set-up, other than it being a 440, and an A/C water pump...

Bumper to bumper in 95 degree heat-never goes over 180...

Has it been running hot since you fired the engine???

Has the block been cut more than .030???

Are you certain the correct head gaskets are in place???
Posted By: ahy

Re: Running hot and running out of ideas 67 Belvedere - 05/03/12 02:40 AM

Here's a combo that works very well for me on a 496 with AC:

- MP High volume water pump with anti-cavitation plate driven about 7% above crank speed
- MP aluminum housing
- 26" aluminum top tank radiator, 2" thick. Its a Mancini "Muscle Car" radiator
- Matching shroud
- 180 degree high flow stat. Originally Mr Gasket which worked (apparantly many don't) and now a Milodon stat only because I was nervous about the Mr gasket
- MP clutch fan kit with 5 blade "low drag" fan. I have a 7 blade as backup but haven't needed it

With the car moving, it always runs right up against the 180 degree stat. It actually ran 175 with the Mr gasket because it opened a little early. With the car parked and idling on a hot day with AC running it will creep up to 205 or so after 10-15 min.

I'll suggest you look at the water pump first and radiator second. Check pulley ratios. The high volume pump slightly overdriven seems to work really well. MP pumps are still available but spendy. If I bought another I'd probably buy a Mancini high volume.

On the radiator, you didn't comment on age or condition. Usually, hot running at speed is a sign of a plugged or inadequate radiator. A clean full depth (ie 2" or more) 3 core should do it but for some reason yours isn't. Some aftermarket 3 core rads are really thin. If its old or plugged or thin you may need a better radiator.

Also the tuneup matters. Mechanical + vacuum advance to get you in the 35-50 degree advance range while cruising helps the engine run efficiently and cool. A good cooling system should still be able to overcome a not perfect tuneup but every little bit matters.
Posted By: Rick_Ehrenberg

Re: Running hot and running out of ideas 67 Belvedere - 05/03/12 02:45 AM

Quote:

Quote:

3 row rad

20 deg intial. .520/254 solid. Dist is locked, slots welded. I dont recall the total #.




Distributor is locked meaning no mechanical advance ? if so there is your problem , all you have is 20 degrees ...




Man, you need closer to 33-35 at 2,500 RPM or above, and 50-55 with vacuum. Not only is it heating up from the spark so late, but all that unburned fuel is killing the rings and cyl walls (fuel wash), and diluting the oil, not to mention making the Arabs rich!

Rick
Posted By: Belvedere1

Re: Running hot and running out of ideas 67 Belvedere - 05/03/12 03:18 AM

Sorry, 20 initial and 16 mechanical. One heavy and one light advance spring.
Posted By: Belvedere1

Re: Running hot and running out of ideas 67 Belvedere - 05/03/12 03:34 AM

Here is a little more info:

* MP electronic dist, chrome box. 20 deg initial, 16 mechanical, advance springs changed to one light and one heavy

* 800 Edelbrock carb, re-jetted and rods richened, larger needle and seat than box stock

* The plugs look spot on with no signs of too lean or rich and no detonation

* The head gaskets are correct, no cooling holes mis-aligned or blocked, that was all checked before final assembly

* Block was sonic checked before an .030 bore, plenty of material so the walls are not too thin

* The radiator has about 2700 miles since new and was cleaned before the new motor was assembled. 700-800 miles on the new motor. It was new from Year One.
Posted By: ahy

Re: Running hot and running out of ideas 67 Belvedere - 05/03/12 03:54 AM

Sounds like you have the block cleaning covered and timing is in the ballpark. Vacuum advance would help but you shouldn't be overheating without it. How about radiator thickness, WP type and WP/fan pulley ratio?
Posted By: Reggie

Re: Running hot and running out of ideas 67 Belvedere - 05/03/12 03:55 AM

Quote:

The fan clutch is sitting 7/8" - 1" away from the radiator and using a factory shroud.


That might be the problem. The fan should sit out enough from the edge of the shroud to pull cool through the radiator. Otherwise you're just blowing hot air around inside the shroud instead of pulling cool air through the radiator.
Posted By: Belvedere1

Re: Running hot and running out of ideas 67 Belvedere - 05/03/12 04:01 AM

Not sure on the rad thickness. Its a factory cast iron housing and a 6 blade impeller pump which is an A/C pump I beleive. Not sure on the pulley ratios but I will look into it more tomorrow.


I have always just had the vacuum advance disconnected.
Posted By: rapom

Re: Running hot and running out of ideas 67 Belvedere - 05/03/12 12:09 PM

Looks like you have just about everything covered. A bad ground on an engine block will cause it to overheat.
I would also run a fixed 7 blade fan. Plus a smaller water pump pulley.
Posted By: Dabee

Re: Running hot and running out of ideas 67 Belvedere - 05/03/12 02:01 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

3 row rad

20 deg intial. .520/254 solid. Dist is locked, slots welded. I dont recall the total #.




Distributor is locked meaning no mechanical advance ? if so there is your problem , all you have is 20 degrees ...




Man, you need closer to 33-35 at 2,500 RPM or above, and 50-55 with vacuum. Not only is it heating up from the spark so late, but all that unburned fuel is killing the rings and cyl walls (fuel wash), and diluting the oil, not to mention making the Arabs rich!

Rick



Quote:

Sorry, 20 initial and 16 mechanical. One heavy and one light advance spring.





Okay is it locked or unlocked?
Posted By: Dodgem

Re: Running hot and running out of ideas 67 Belvedere - 05/03/12 02:31 PM

Time for a new rad I went through that years ago finally after some advice had new three rows installed and that was the end of my problems.
A shroud helps too!

Out of what carb, jets and power valve if applicable?
Posted By: Belvedere1

Re: Running hot and running out of ideas 67 Belvedere - 05/03/12 03:57 PM

With the slots welded in the advance plate it is locked as I see it.

No power valve to worry about and it has a shroud.

I will investigate the water pump pulley later this afternoon.

Thanks to all for the ideas.
Posted By: GTX MATT

Re: Running hot and running out of ideas 67 Belvedere - 05/03/12 04:07 PM

Hook the vacuum advance up, I bet it runs cool
Posted By: Challenger 1

Re: Running hot and running out of ideas 67 Belvedere - 05/03/12 04:13 PM

Quote:

Hook the vacuum advance up, I bet it runs cool




Yup, why isn't it hooked up?

welding up the slots to limit timing is not locking it out, I think your confused on that point.

Why happens to your timing when you you have a timing light on it and you rev it up?
Posted By: burdar

Re: Running hot and running out of ideas 67 Belvedere - 05/03/12 04:29 PM

What kind of temp gauge are you running? Is it possible that the gauge could be faulty and you're really not running as hot as you think you are?
Posted By: Belvedere1

Re: Running hot and running out of ideas 67 Belvedere - 05/03/12 04:58 PM

I guess I am using the wrong term on the dist being locked then, my thinking is that if the slots are welded to a certain dimension to limit the total then it can only advance to the point where the pins hit the end of the slots.

The guage may be off but when it heats up it will vapor lock and basically run like crap if at all so it has to be at least close to being accurate.
Posted By: ThermoQuad

Re: Running hot and running out of ideas 67 Belvedere - 05/03/12 05:30 PM

220 degrees is warm, it is not hot.

Your thermostat opening temp is too low. Opening Temp has nothing to do with operating temp except to keep engine above a specified temp.

Disconnect the radiator trans cooler and just run the external one.
No need in the southwest for the radiator trans cooler.

Today's fuel requires a 195 degree thermostat.

Do not use water wetter-causes issues if left in too long.

60% water, 40 % antifreeze, bottle of "be cool"

Use the viscous fan and a thermostatic fan clutch, do not use direct drive or any aftermarket fan. It's in the book-the mopar book. I did not make this up. I think mother Mopar's Larry Shepard might have a clue so be careful with advice you get from the internet.

Your radiator core is suspect-the center tubes are probably restricted, so some diagnosis with IR temp gun will tell you everything you need to know before throwing mud at the wall. Cheap ones are at China Freight.

Did you read the part about the thermostat??? that's not an old wives tale.
Posted By: Challenger 1

Re: Running hot and running out of ideas 67 Belvedere - 05/03/12 07:02 PM

Quote:

220 degrees is warm, it is not hot.

Your thermostat opening temp is too low. Opening Temp has nothing to do with operating temp except to keep engine above a specified temp.

Disconnect the radiator trans cooler and just run the external one.
No need in the southwest for the radiator trans cooler.

Today's fuel requires a 195 degree thermostat.

Do not use water wetter-causes issues if left in too long.

60% water, 40 % antifreeze, bottle of "be cool"

Use the viscous fan and a thermostatic fan clutch, do not use direct drive or any aftermarket fan. It's in the book-the mopar book. I did not make this up. I think mother Mopar's Larry Shepard might have a clue so be careful with advice you get from the internet.

Your radiator core is suspect-the center tubes are probably restricted, so some diagnosis with IR temp gun will tell you everything you need to know before throwing mud at the wall. Cheap ones are at China Freight.

Did you read the part about the thermostat??? that's not an old wives tale.




Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: Running hot and running out of ideas 67 Belvedere - 05/03/12 07:24 PM

Quote:

Quote:

The fan clutch is sitting 7/8" - 1" away from the radiator and using a factory shroud.


That might be the problem. The fan should sit out enough from the edge of the shroud to pull cool through the radiator. Otherwise you're just blowing hot air around inside the shroud instead of pulling cool air through the radiator.




The blades of the fan shroud be 1/2 in the shroud, 1/2 out of the shroud

Optimum fan to shroud total clearance is 10% of the shroud's diameter. The total clearance is both sides of the fan. So... 20" fan shroud should have 2" of total clearance. And that will be 1" on both sides of the fan.
Posted By: WheelsUp73

Re: Running hot and running out of ideas 67 Belvedere - 05/03/12 08:54 PM

Unless you have spent time in Phoenix you have no idea how hot it gets.The asphalt temp will be 150 degrees or more in the summer making it hard to keep any car running cool.I worked for Lou Grubb Chevrolet for many years in the mid/late 80s and I worked on some corvettes and them things run 255 degrees in mid summer and there is nothing you can do about it. Its really bad driving in rush hour bumper to bumper traffic when its 105 outside. Good luck!
Steve

Attached picture 7191049-DodgeDart4-18-12.jpg
Posted By: Belvedere1

Re: Running hot and running out of ideas 67 Belvedere - 05/03/12 08:59 PM

What is the wives tale on t-stats, I dont have the book??
Posted By: JohnRR

Re: Running hot and running out of ideas 67 Belvedere - 05/03/12 09:28 PM

Quote:

I think mother Mopar's Larry Shepard might have a clue so be careful with advice you get from the internet.






I think the words "MIGHT HAVE" should be changed to "SOMETIMES HAS" in this sentence ...
Posted By: Pyper70

Re: Running hot and running out of ideas 67 Belvedere - 05/03/12 10:11 PM

I'll poke at this one only because it happened to my Dart once...My water temp was hitting 220 down the road...weird for a Slant 6 to have that happen. Everything was in tip top shape. I checked my Trans dipstick and I was a little low. I topped off the trans and got back to business as usual. I can only assume that the trans overheats and since it is aluminum and mated through a bell housing, you are heating up the coolant from the transmission side.

Have you run an A/F meter on it? make sure you have the right numbers through your powerband. The idle circuit is pointless...our cars don't sit at idle most of the time... you have to get out there to test and tune.

Not to hijack the thread but I have a 440, AC pump, factory cast iron housing and cast pump. 10:1, Eddy heads, Dual 500cfm Carbs. 26inch 4 core radiator, tranny cooler, 7-blade with viscous, 180º Napa stat (Mr Gasket are trash, bad QA). I even threw in Water Wetter. I know I have some test and tune because I just got my RPM heads on but I hit 180º driving down the road and 195º in traffic.

I have no vacuum advance. Its a mechanical dizzy. Are you sure your dizzy is setup correctly?
Posted By: Belvedere1

Re: Running hot and running out of ideas 67 Belvedere - 05/03/12 11:11 PM

I have not ran an A/F meter.

AFAIK the dist is set up correctly. It has given me reason to think otherwise
Posted By: GTX MATT

Re: Running hot and running out of ideas 67 Belvedere - 05/03/12 11:22 PM

It sounds like it probably it, but you should still run the vacuum advance. Just give it a try and see if it stops overheating.
Posted By: feets

Re: Running hot and running out of ideas 67 Belvedere - 05/03/12 11:46 PM

You've spent a lot of money on this car. Now go spend $39 dollars for a tool.

Go to Harbor Freight and buy an IR temp gun.
Get the car up to temperature.
Measure the temperature of the water neck.
Measure the temperature of the radiator where the upper hose goes in. It should be very close to the temp of the water neck, assuming the thermostat is open.
Measure the radiator where the lower hose goes out.
There should be a minimum of 30 degrees temperature drop in the radiator. If not, measure the temp of the radiator core in a grid.
Measure every couple inches across the top of the core.
Drop two inches and measure across again.
Repeat until you've measured the whole core.

The temp drop should be gradual. If you have any cold spots the core is plugged.
Posted By: Belvedere1

Re: Running hot and running out of ideas 67 Belvedere - 05/04/12 03:59 AM

I will do some temp readings this weekend with the IR tool, thanks Feets.
Posted By: feets

Re: Running hot and running out of ideas 67 Belvedere - 05/04/12 04:20 AM

http://www.harborfreight.com/non-contact-laser-thermometer-96451.html



$39.99.

Sure, there may be better units out there but what you're looking for is a noticeable change in temperature.

When my Imperial had a clogged radiator there were areas where the temperature dropped almost 50 degrees lower than surrounding bits of the radiator.
Posted By: Belvedere1

Re: Running hot and running out of ideas 67 Belvedere - 05/04/12 04:27 AM

Thanks for the info there. I just went to go over some of the suggestions and I would say that only about 25-30% of the fan blade is in the shroud so now I am thinking I may need to search for a clutch fan spacer to sink the fan in a little further. I still have some room to be safe with clearance between the rad and the fan clutch.

Also, the trans cooler is mounted directly to the radiator with the zip ties from the cooler kit. I never really liked that setup but thought it would be ok but now I am not sure that is ideal for allowing the radiator to fully do its job. I will do some further investigating this weekend.

Thanks all.
Posted By: feets

Re: Running hot and running out of ideas 67 Belvedere - 05/04/12 04:33 AM

Before you start changing parts, grab the temp gun and check things out.

Putting a little distance between the trans cooler and radiator may help a wee bit.
I'm not a fan of attaching things to the radiator core.
Posted By: Belvedere1

Re: Running hot and running out of ideas 67 Belvedere - 05/04/12 05:08 AM

Yeah I plan on checking things out again and getting temp readings before throwing needless parts at it. I would like to get the trans cooler moved but need to research on how to "hang" it.
Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: Running hot and running out of ideas 67 Belvedere - 05/04/12 06:05 AM

Quote:

Before you start changing parts, grab the temp gun and check things out.

Putting a little distance between the trans cooler and radiator may help a wee bit.
I'm not a fan of attaching things to the radiator core.




I agree. Check with the IR gun. They really come in handy. But they don't read very well of shiny surfaces. Like a polished aluminum radiator or chrome headers.

Sure optimum is the fan blades 1/2 inside the shroud edge. But I don't think 1/3 in would cause all the problems you are having.
Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: Running hot and running out of ideas 67 Belvedere - 05/04/12 07:04 AM

"Antifreeze" does not cool as well as water or water with additive.

"Antifreeze" has many properties. Many of those properties are accomplished by the additives blended with the Ethelyne Glycol (the part that resists freezing). The property of resistance to freezing in "Antifreeze" is not a needed by Belvedere1 and those few who live in his same climate. Now those living in colder climates (most), you do need resistance to freezing in winter from antifreeze. No need to debate that.

Now, those few who don’t need the resistance to freezing in their car still need the additives in their cooling systems for protection.

The Justice Brothers Radiator Super Cooler (RC/22P) has an additive package formulated to include properties for: water pump lubrication, anti corrosives, Supplemental Coolant Additives (SCA's), surfactants, stop rust, resisting acid formation, anti foaming to name a few.

Here's a fairly thorough conducted test of cooling additives in regards to temperature: http://www.turbomagazine.com/feature...s/viewall.html

From test:
Quote:

Justice Brothers' Radiator Cooler gave us the lowest temperature during our testing - 177 F - and provided the lowest average temperatures overall when mixed with water alone.




In the case of Belvedere1 , I personally would like to recommend also adding a bottle of Cooling System Protector (CSP/1P) when running straight distilled water and a large system. It has additional SCA's, water pump lubrication, corrosion inhibitors and acid neutralizers. It also contains special metal deviators that act as a ground strap between dissimilar metals like the many aluminum to cast iron to brass to rubber transitions. That gives extra electrolysis and anti rust protection as additives get depleted over time over a large area.

Check electrolysis with a digital voltmeter. Attach the ground to the radiator body. Then float the positive lead in the radiator fluid mixture. You should not have more than about .3 volts.

We all run sealed ZZ4 crate motors per class rules in the circle track car I crew on. I have seen guys that use Redline water wetter spit brownish water on a hot day. The track approved engine rebuilder stated our motor's coolant passages using Justice Brothers additive had no corrosion whereas the Redline users didn't look as clean.

Steve Wall
Regional Sales Representative
Justice Brothers High Point Distributing
www.justicebrothers.com
stevewall68@gmail.com
Posted By: Mr.Yuck

Re: Running hot and running out of ideas 67 Belvedere - 05/04/12 12:43 PM

Quote:

Thanks for the info there. I just went to go over some of the suggestions and I would say that only about 25-30% of the fan blade is in the shroud so now I am thinking I may need to search for a clutch fan spacer to sink the fan in a little further. I still have some room to be safe with clearance between the rad and the fan clutch.

Also, the trans cooler is mounted directly to the radiator with the zip ties from the cooler kit. I never really liked that setup but thought it would be ok but now I am not sure that is ideal for allowing the radiator to fully do its job. I will do some further investigating this weekend.

Thanks all.




I've run the cheap Summit plastic 18.5" fan in the last few 440's. I think w/ a 1.5" spacer... they work great car runs cool and the weight a few ounces PLUS you won't cut your fingers to heck working around them.
Posted By: feets

Re: Running hot and running out of ideas 67 Belvedere - 05/04/12 04:58 PM

With all due respect, I doubt seriously what's in his radiator is the root cause.
Maybe something will run 10 degrees cooler than something else but he should see a larger drop.
Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: Running hot and running out of ideas 67 Belvedere - 05/04/12 05:54 PM

Quote:

With all due respect, I doubt seriously what's in his radiator is the root cause.
Maybe something will run 10 degrees cooler than something else but he should see a larger drop.




on the root cause.

Either a combination of small stuff, radiator blockage, or a tuning issue.

Wonder if cam duration 254 @.050 with 3.75 stroke, 9.5 converter, rear gear factor in here???
Posted By: MoparPosterChild

Re: Running hot and running out of ideas 67 Belvedere - 05/04/12 11:36 PM

Is your radiator aluminum? If it is try shining a flashlight through the front of it. If you can't see any light coming through the other side, you need a new radiator. Those aluminum ones will go bad if they get too hot just one time. I'm on my 3rd one in one of my cars. Took forever to figure it out.
Posted By: Belvedere1

Re: Running hot and running out of ideas 67 Belvedere - 05/05/12 01:34 AM

No aluminum, just a factory type replacement.
Posted By: Belvedere1

Re: Running hot and running out of ideas 67 Belvedere - 05/05/12 04:32 AM

Took some temp measurements on the radiator. At the top near the upper hose I measured 192 degrees and at the lower hose I got 158 degrees. So that should prove the radiator is flowing well. I started it @ 6:39 with the outside air temp of 96 deg and after 21 minutues of idling and slow 20 mph cruise for about 2 block in the neighborhood and back to the driveway for more idling it finally reached 195 deg on the temp guage. This is pretty much the scenario but it would have climbed to 220 had I let it sit running a little longer. The problem is that it just does not cool itself and hold a steady temp. If I were idling in stop and go traffic and then a run down the freeway and back to stop and go traffic it just will not hold a good temp. I cool it down by parking it and let it sit. The search continues as I will be trying some of the other things you guy have mentioned in this thread.
Posted By: DARTH V8Я

Re: Running hot and running out of ideas 67 Belvedere - 05/05/12 04:41 AM

Can you turn the clutch fan by hand with the engine hot? There should be ALOT of resistance.
Posted By: Belvedere1

Re: Running hot and running out of ideas 67 Belvedere - 05/05/12 05:11 AM

I have not tried that test. I will give it a try the next its warmed up.
Posted By: feets

Re: Running hot and running out of ideas 67 Belvedere - 05/05/12 05:50 AM

It looks like the radiator is doing a fair job. 34 degrees is good. I'd like to see a bigger drop but wouldn't we all?

Did you check for any cold spots in the core?
Posted By: Belvedere1

Re: Running hot and running out of ideas 67 Belvedere - 05/05/12 06:02 AM

Nothing to speak of really maybe 2-3 degrees of variation moving across the core in a row type pattern. I am thinking I need to sink the fan in a little closer to rad after looking more closey at things.

I would also like to get the trans cooler mounted independent of the rad core, I cant help but think that would help.

Also looked into different pulley diameters but I am not seeing anything out there in a stamped steel, stock type water pump pulley other than what was on all big blocks of that era. I need to research that more.
Posted By: 6PakBee

Re: Running hot and running out of ideas 67 Belvedere - 05/05/12 06:06 AM

Reading through this post reminds me of the time I fought an overheating problem with a '72 400 in a Newport. After going through all the usual details and coming up short, it turned out to be a glazed fan belt. Fan and pump never came up to speed. You never know.
Posted By: Belvedere1

Re: Running hot and running out of ideas 67 Belvedere - 05/05/12 06:08 AM

I will look into that situation as well, thanks for tip!
Posted By: ahy

Re: Running hot and running out of ideas 67 Belvedere - 05/05/12 12:57 PM

Quote:

Nothing to speak of really maybe 2-3 degrees of variation moving across the core in a row type pattern. I am thinking I need to sink the fan in a little closer to rad after looking more closey at things.

I would also like to get the trans cooler mounted independent of the rad core, I cant help but think that would help.

Also looked into different pulley diameters but I am not seeing anything out there in a stamped steel, stock type water pump pulley other than what was on all big blocks of that era. I need to research that more.




On the drive ratios, as original there was a "with AC" setup that provided overdrive and used a "with AC" WP and a standard setup without the overdrive and matching WP. The overdrive "with AC" was significant. Something like 20-25% from memory.

I wound up with about 7% WP overdrive using repop steel pulleys from Bouchillon on the accessories and a 6" aluminum 4 groove crank pulley from March. The standard steel crank pulley is 7" or 71/4" on most models. I used the smaller crank pullley to slow things down a little on my faster than stock spinning engine.

Reading the update on your testing... it sounds like it gets hot at idle and will not cool off on a roll. You have both "hot at speed" and "hot at idle". Temps on the radiator are pretty consistant so it doesn't have any obvious signs of blockage.

On a roll over 40 MPH, the fan basically doesn't matter. Since you have "hot at speed" there is something going on with the radiator, WP or engine itself. It sounds like the engine block was well cleaned so rule that out. Tuneup with mechanical advance OK. Vacuum advance would help. The high stall convertor and big cooler required adds to the heat load. Mounting the trans cooler independantly would take some stress off the radiator. It may help cooling a little but not a big impact.

How about some more specifics on the WP and radiator? Type and brand of WP and thickness and age and brand of the radiator? Did it always run hot or did it happen over time or after a change? I'm thinking your setup and location just has very high cooling requirements and you need a really high capacity radiator and WP to keep up.
Posted By: BigBlockMopar

Re: Running hot and running out of ideas 67 Belvedere - 05/05/12 01:19 PM

Was the cam degreed correctly during install?

As adviced, I would also suggest to hook up the vacuum advance. But hook it up to direct intake vacuum, otherwise it won't do anything when idling.
If you want to do a quick check upfront to see if the motor likes more advance at idle, just put in some timing. If you're going to drive it, just cruise around, don't hammer it or it might ping perhaps.
Posted By: Challenger 1

Re: Running hot and running out of ideas 67 Belvedere - 05/05/12 02:42 PM

Quote:

Can you turn the clutch fan by hand with the engine hot? There should be ALOT of resistance.




This is a very real possibilty, it happened to me. New fan clutch and it was back to normal.

Good luck with it.

I'm betting it a at least a couple factors, not just one.
Posted By: Dabee

Re: Running hot and running out of ideas 67 Belvedere - 05/05/12 05:04 PM

I have been following this thread with interest. This probably isn’t what you are wanting to here but here goes. I had the same problem with my 69 Bee only difference is I have air and had a three core aluminum radiator in it. The radiator was from a n online bargain dealer. I can’t even find him on line now. Since the radiator was new I figured it wasn’t the problem so I started changing things, pump, fans, thermostats, timing, carb tuning, chasing the problem. Nothing helped. Then one day I put a bigger diameter fan on it to see if that would help. Well it helped aright when the fan flexed forward at high rpm and took out the radiator. I ordered a four core radiator from Champion and got a Chrysler 300C electric fan off Ebag for $90. The difference in the core structure between the no name radiator and the Champion was mind boggling. I installed the new parts and the cooling problem is fixed. I drove the car this week in 90 degree temps with the AC on in traffic in town an out on the open high way. It never went above 180 degrees. This is with a 512 wedge.

Attached picture 7193403-airpan001.jpg
Posted By: feets

Re: Running hot and running out of ideas 67 Belvedere - 05/05/12 06:22 PM

He verified that his radiator is doing it's job. There's no need to look at replacing it.
He needs to find the source of the heat.

A loose converter dumping trans heat into the radiator or blown head gasket would easily cause that problem.
Posted By: Darryls-Demon

Re: Running hot and running out of ideas 67 Belvedere - 05/05/12 06:28 PM

I guess Iam very lucky, my 440 on a warm day will get up to 190 or so if the car is sitting in traffic for awhile but as soon as the car starts moving it cools back down to 175. One thing I have in both of my cars is a Ron Davis radiator.

My combo
.030 over 440
11to1 compression
indy SR heads
.248-.254 solid roller cam
FBO dist
8 inch convertor
3.55 gear
3750 lbs with me in it.
Pro systems carb

Attached picture 7193475-IMG_1133.JPG
Posted By: Belvedere1

Re: Running hot and running out of ideas 67 Belvedere - 05/05/12 07:18 PM

It degreed within .5 of a degree.

If I remember correctly it was made by Modine, the core is roughly 3" wide, using a cast factory 6 blade water pump. The radiator only has 3400 miles on it and less than 1000 with the new stroker.
Posted By: Dabee

Re: Running hot and running out of ideas 67 Belvedere - 05/05/12 07:28 PM

Quote:

He verified that his radiator is doing it's job. There's no need to look at replacing it.
He needs to find the source of the heat.

A loose converter dumping trans heat into the radiator or blown head gasket would easily cause that problem.




I wasn’t suggesting he replace his radiator. I know he said he had good a temperature drop cross the radiator. I was just relating a similar experience with my car hoping it would help him out. I also had a 30 degree plus drop across the radiator but it still wouldn’t cool. When I installed the new radiator and electric fan I left everything else the same. I am convinced even though the three core radiators fin design was inferior installing the electric fan is what cured my cooling problem.
Posted By: sickhemi

Re: Running hot and running out of ideas 67 Belvedere - 05/05/12 10:07 PM

did you paint the radiator?
Posted By: Belvedere1

Re: Running hot and running out of ideas 67 Belvedere - 05/05/12 10:12 PM

I didn't but it was painted by the radiator shop that cleaned it. Its not a thick layer that would block airflow.
Posted By: Reggie

Re: Running hot and running out of ideas 67 Belvedere - 05/05/12 10:42 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Can you turn the clutch fan by hand with the engine hot? There should be ALOT of resistance.




This is a very real possibilty, it happened to me. New fan clutch and it was back to normal.

Good luck with it.

I'm betting it a at least a couple factors, not just one.






I've seen a bad fan clutch cause overheating before too, so that's another possibility. A guy came into my Dad's gas station with a Chrysler that was overheating. The fan was barely turning while the engine was running.
Posted By: sickhemi

Re: Running hot and running out of ideas 67 Belvedere - 05/05/12 10:48 PM

do you have headers on the car and are they uncoated. if the car is running lean at idle it the headers will get real hot
Posted By: Belvedere1

Re: Running hot and running out of ideas 67 Belvedere - 05/06/12 01:21 AM

The fan is spinning really well.

The headers are ceramic coated, its not running lean for sure. I would have to check my book but I beleive it has the largest jets and richest rods from the strip kit.
Posted By: DARTH V8Я

Re: Running hot and running out of ideas 67 Belvedere - 05/06/12 03:24 AM

Quote:

The fan is spinning really well.




You can't tell with the engine running, you need to get the engine hot, shut it off, then spin the fan by hand. There should be alot of resistance.
Posted By: Belvedere1

Re: Running hot and running out of ideas 67 Belvedere - 06/14/12 05:12 AM

Update: Went for a ride last night and pulled in the driveway with the temp @ 220, shut the car off and spun the fan with absolutely no resistance at all. Looks like the new fan clutch is no good.
Posted By: MO_PA

Re: Running hot and running out of ideas 67 Belvedere - 06/14/12 10:55 AM

A few years ago my neighbors ferd pickup had a heating problem, when I opened the hood I noticed that the fan was on wrong, it could not pull the air properly. Once the fan blades were on properly the heating problem disappeared.
Posted By: 6PakBee

Re: Running hot and running out of ideas 67 Belvedere - 06/14/12 11:39 AM

Quote:

Update: Went for a ride last night and pulled in the driveway with the temp @ 220, shut the car off and spun the fan with absolutely no resistance at all. Looks like the new fan clutch is no good.




Looks like you found the problem. Let us know how it turned out after you get it replaced.
Posted By: Crazy68Dart

Re: Running hot and running out of ideas 67 Belvedere - 06/14/12 11:49 AM

Hi, here is a write-up I did on my 383 cooling issues. You mentioned you are using the 6-vane pump, you might want to get the 8 vane version.

The 6-van is used with an A/C car with a smaller pully, which spins the pump harder. The 8-vane pump is used with a slightly larger pulley on a non-A/C car. Which pulleys are you running?

You problem to me sounds either coolant flow related or more likely airflow related (especially considering your clutch fan is not doing the job).

This thread is now "archive status", which means no pics, which sucks... if you want the pics of the pump I can dig them up.

http://www.bigblockdart.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-20229.html

Posted By: Crazy68Dart

Re: Running hot and running out of ideas 67 Belvedere - 06/14/12 11:59 AM

Here is the original version with pics.

http://www.bigblockdart.com/forum/showthread.php?20229-Some-cooling-questions
Posted By: 70Cuda383

Re: Running hot and running out of ideas 67 Belvedere - 06/14/12 01:18 PM

Quote:

Quote:

He verified that his radiator is doing it's job. There's no need to look at replacing it.
He needs to find the source of the heat.

A loose converter dumping trans heat into the radiator or blown head gasket would easily cause that problem.




I wasn’t suggesting he replace his radiator. I know he said he had good a temperature drop cross the radiator. I was just relating a similar experience with my car hoping it would help him out. I also had a 30 degree plus drop across the radiator but it still wouldn’t cool. When I installed the new radiator and electric fan I left everything else the same. I am convinced even though the three core radiators fin design was inferior installing the electric fan is what cured my cooling problem.




right. a radiator could be partially blocked, or restricted, you'll still have some flow, which means you'll still get a nice even temperature drop across the radiator and no sudden cool spots, but the overall GPM flow of the entire system won't be up where it should be.


regardless, it sounds like he found the problem when he discovered that his fan clutch has no resistant and free spins when the engine is hot.
Posted By: maximum entropy

Re: Running hot and running out of ideas 67 Belvedere - 06/14/12 05:27 PM

Quote:

Update: Went for a ride last night and pulled in the driveway with the temp @ 220, shut the car off and spun the fan with absolutely no resistance at all. Looks like the new fan clutch is no good.



fan clutches are extremely reliable, and blamed for a lot of problems that are actually caused by other things. if your radiator is plugged in the center, the fan clutch won't get hot enough to engage. i have seen this MANY times over the years.
Posted By: Belvedere1

Re: Running hot and running out of ideas 67 Belvedere - 06/15/12 02:17 AM

Just how much resistance should I be getting when trying to spin the fan? I can spin it around several times with just a flip of my index finger.
Posted By: Moparmick

Re: Running hot and running out of ideas 67 Belvedere - 06/15/12 03:46 AM

Ok I read all the posts here and no one has mentioned this, Check your grounds make sure they are clean and tight a bad ground can cause overheating, if ground is not good your electrical system will look for the next best source for ground which could be cooling system, I know because this happened to me.
Posted By: Belvedere1

Re: Running hot and running out of ideas 67 Belvedere - 06/15/12 04:04 AM

I'll give it another look but last check they were all tight.
Posted By: maximum entropy

Re: Running hot and running out of ideas 67 Belvedere - 06/15/12 05:26 AM

Quote:

Just how much resistance should I be getting when trying to spin the fan? I can spin it around several times with just a flip of my index finger.



THE BEST way to test a fan clutch is to listen for engagement. it should be obvious. if it's not getting hot enough at idle to engage the clutch, try putting a piece of cardboard in front of the radiator. the temperature the clutch engages at will vary depending on type/ brand/ application, but it should engage with authority. you should hear the unmistakeable roar of the fan, and feel the airflow increase dramatically. if you don't, it might be a plugged radiator as i mentioned earlier. i wish i had a penny for every time i heard a customer tell me, "i've replaced the fan clutch 4 times, and it still gets hot!"