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Hughes TQ/ UPDATE....Still drops 550 RPM in gear!!!!

Posted By: oldsklharo

Hughes TQ/ UPDATE....Still drops 550 RPM in gear!!!! - 04/22/12 09:31 PM

Ok I just installed my new Hughes 2500 Stall converter and would like to know if there is a specific break in procedure? I didn't get anything with the converter stating so but thought I would ask before I tear something up.

Every thing is installed. I filled the tranny with new fluid and started it for one or two seconds. I then checked the fluid and added till full again.

Do I need to let it idle in drive for a few minutes while it is up on jack stands or can I drop it down and go for a ride??
Posted By: oldsklharo

Re: Hughes Torque Converter Break In Instructions??????? - 04/22/12 09:32 PM

I can't find anything on the web or their official site for converter instructions. I would call their Tech Support but it's Sunday and I want to drive her today!!!!
Posted By: mikemee1331

Re: Hughes Torque Converter Break In Instructions??????? - 04/22/12 09:45 PM

pretty much that's all there is to it. idle it in neutral for a bit a recheck fluid level. hopefully you put fluid in the converter before you installed it.
Posted By: frank

Re: Hughes Torque Converter Break In Instructions??????? - 04/23/12 12:38 AM

No break in required. If fluid is good drive it
Posted By: forphorty

Re: Hughes Torque Converter Break In Instructions??????? - 04/23/12 02:49 AM

fluid level is to be checked idling in nuetral
Posted By: 70Cuda383

Re: Hughes Torque Converter Break In Instructions??????? - 04/23/12 03:47 AM

Torque converters use hydraulic fluid/pressure to work. when they are full of fluid and functioning correctly, there is NO metal to metal contact it's all "fluid", and thus, NOTHING to "break in" fill it with fluid and run it!
Posted By: DARTH V8Я

Re: Hughes Torque Converter Break In Instructions??????? - 04/23/12 04:13 AM

Lets us know how it idles in gear
Posted By: oldsklharo

Re: Hughes Torque Converter Break In Instructions??????? - 04/23/12 03:25 PM

Quote:

Lets us know how it idles in gear



You know me way to well!!

Well, the SOB still drops down to about 450-500 RPM.....down from 1000 RPM at idle. I don't know what to do at this point. It does idle smoother at the 500, like it's not laboring as hard to idle but still drops like 550 RPM.

HELP!!!!
Posted By: DARTH V8Я

Re: Hughes Torque Converter Break In Instructions??????? - 04/23/12 03:42 PM

Now you have to tinker with the carb a bit. make sure the secondaries are not completely closed at idle, the should be slightly open. Idle mixtures will have to be reset, fun stuff. You'll get there
Posted By: oldsklharo

Re: Hughes Torque Converter Break In Instructions??????? - 04/23/12 03:55 PM

Quote:

Now you have to tinker with the carb a bit. make sure the secondaries are not completely closed at idle, the should be slightly open. Idle mixtures will have to be reset, fun stuff. You'll get there



Ok will do.... I haven't checked my secondaries so that will be next. I also tuned my idle mixture screws yesterday with a vacuum gauge so I know those are pretty good but will reset them again once I verify/adjust my secondaries
Posted By: ProStDodge

Re: Hughes Torque Converter Break In Instructions??????? - 04/23/12 04:37 PM

9 times out of 10, if the idle speed drops significantly between neutral and drive, the problem is in the distributor, not the carb or converter.

If the mechanical advance springs in the distributor are too light, there will be just a touch of advance at idle speeds of 900-100 RPM (remember - factory idle is about 700 RPM). When you put it in gear, the idle slows just enough to let the advance spring pull back, which removes some of the timing, resulting in a bigger drop in idle RPM.

Since you have a converter which will flash to 2500, there is no point in having light springs in the distributor. I would install two medium springs, and reset your timing to 36 degrees @ 3000 RPM. (w/vacuum advance plugged off),
Posted By: RobX4406

Re: Hughes Torque Converter Break In Instructions??????? - 04/23/12 04:41 PM

Grab distributor and twist it clockwise... it needs more initial. If the engine picks up RPM when you do that THE ENGINE WANTS THE TIMING, PERIOD!

Put 16 on it at idle, turn the idle speed down to 850-900, reset mix screws to highest vacuum and see what it does. You'll have to change the mechanical. been through this before, read the other post you started. Don't drive it until you alter the mechanical advance.

IMO, Total timing method is a rotten method for timing a street driven car.

Only time I have a tune up on a car like what you currently have is if it needs to be smogged!

Positive you don't have vacuum leak issues?
Posted By: RobX4406

Re: Hughes Torque Converter Break In Instructions??????? - 04/23/12 06:10 PM

Put as much initial timing on it that the starter can handle.
Posted By: Challenger 1

Re: Hughes Torque Converter Break In Instructions??????? - 04/23/12 06:41 PM

Quote:

Put as much initial timing on it that the starter can handle.


Posted By: oldsklharo

Re: Hughes Torque Converter Break In Instructions??????? - 04/23/12 07:06 PM

Ok, I upped by initial till it didn't want anymore and it doesn't kick back on the starter at this point when I start it while it is warm. When I started moving the dist it definitely sped up! I turned my idle down to 900 and reset by idle mixture screws. I am pulling about 17 cm HG or 7 Hg now. Is that good? I have no idea what good vacuum should be from my carb vacuum port. I am running a Holly 750 SP with vacuum secondaries. I also have a Mallory Unilite mechanical advance dist. I have a re-curve kit for it but am not sure what springs I should be using. I think someone said to use two of the medium springs? Gold and Orange? Those two are in the middle of the chart........

With the car warmed up and idling in part, my secondaries are all the way closed How do I adjust the secondaries? With a looser spring??

I am still seeing it idle in gear at 450-500 RPM.... UUUGH!
Posted By: ProStDodge

Re: Hughes Torque Converter Break In Instructions??????? - 04/23/12 07:47 PM

Quote:

Grab distributor and twist it clockwise... it needs more initial. If the engine picks up RPM when you do that THE ENGINE WANTS THE TIMING, PERIOD!

Put 16 on it at idle, turn the idle speed down to 850-900, reset mix screws to highest vacuum and see what it does. You'll have to change the mechanical. been through this before, read the other post you started. Don't drive it until you alter the mechanical advance.

IMO, Total timing method is a rotten method for timing a street driven car.

Only time I have a tune up on a car like what you currently have is if it needs to be smogged!

Positive you don't have vacuum leak issues?



Thank you for informing me my way of timing is "rotten".

So I set the timing at 18 Initial, with no regard for total timing, turn down the idle and go for a cruise, and find the car has enough spark knock to melt holes in the tops of the pistons when you get on it. Yep that sure works.

Unless you have a race motor with big cam and lots of duration and overlap (low idle vacuum), the motor does not need 18 degrees initial.

Excessive initial timing can cause the engine to run hot as well. Not a problem on a rich race motor which uses the excess fuel to help cool it, but not what you want on a street motor.

Why not let the distributor do what it is designed to do? The problem of idle speed drop in gear will not change with more initial timing. The mechanical advance is still dropping timing when the car is put under load (neutral to drive), so the idle speed will still drop excessively.

I still say to set the total timing at an RPM that has the mechanical advance "all in", usually by 3000 RPM. Then IF the motor really needs more initial timing to stay running after setting the total timing, you then modify the distributor advance.

The springs for the mechanical advance need to be strong enough to prevent movement until the motor is rev'ed above the idle speed. There should be NO mechanical advance in at idle speed. With the 2500 converter, the motor will rev up easily enough to prevent excessive loading of the motor until the timing starts to advance.

To determine if this is indeed the original Posters problem, you can check the timing at idle in neutral, and again in gear. If it is the same both times, there are likely other issues such as a vacuum leak. It they are different, then the problem is the advance springs, regardless of the initial timing. .
Posted By: oldsklharo

Re: Hughes Torque Converter Break In Instructions??????? - 04/23/12 08:27 PM

I had the initial around 18 and there was no deviation between park or in gear timing. It stays rock solid at 18 in both situations.

I previously plugged all my vacuum ports on the carb and nothing changed which leads me to believe I don't have a vacuum problem. Not to mention I am pulling 17 cm Hg on my gauge.........
Posted By: RobX4406

Re: Hughes Torque Converter Break In Instructions??????? - 04/23/12 08:38 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Grab distributor and twist it clockwise... it needs more initial. If the engine picks up RPM when you do that THE ENGINE WANTS THE TIMING, PERIOD!

Put 16 on it at idle, turn the idle speed down to 850-900, reset mix screws to highest vacuum and see what it does. You'll have to change the mechanical. been through this before, read the other post you started. Don't drive it until you alter the mechanical advance.

IMO, Total timing method is a rotten method for timing a street driven car.

Only time I have a tune up on a car like what you currently have is if it needs to be smogged!

Positive you don't have vacuum leak issues?



Thank you for informing me my way of timing is "rotten".

So I set the timing at 18 Initial, with no regard for total timing, turn down the idle and go for a cruise, and find the car has enough spark knock to melt holes in the tops of the pistons when you get on it. Yep that sure works.

Unless you have a race motor with big cam and lots of duration and overlap (low idle vacuum), the motor does not need 18 degrees initial.

Excessive initial timing can cause the engine to run hot as well. Not a problem on a rich race motor which uses the excess fuel to help cool it, but not what you want on a street motor.

Why not let the distributor do what it is designed to do? The problem of idle speed drop in gear will not change with more initial timing. The mechanical advance is still dropping timing when the car is put under load (neutral to drive), so the idle speed will still drop excessively.

I still say to set the total timing at an RPM that has the mechanical advance "all in", usually by 3000 RPM. Then IF the motor really needs more initial timing to stay running after setting the total timing, you then modify the distributor advance.

The springs for the mechanical advance need to be strong enough to prevent movement until the motor is rev'ed above the idle speed. There should be NO mechanical advance in at idle speed. With the 2500 converter, the motor will rev up easily enough to prevent excessive loading of the motor until the timing starts to advance.

To determine if this is indeed the original Posters problem, you can check the timing at idle in neutral, and again in gear. If it is the same both times, there are likely other issues such as a vacuum leak. It they are different, then the problem is the advance springs, regardless of the initial timing. .



He already knows he needs to limit the distributor advance to get his total in line. Much of what you wrote has been hashed out in prior threads. He says it's NOT dropping timing.

I better run out and take the initial on my 340 down from 22* to something safe because it might run hot... NOPE. It runs cool in ANY weather including the 115-120* days we have in my area. Mine have never run hotter with more initial and they sure don't gas people out because of nasty carb settings required by retarded initial timing settings. I don't pick an initial timing number willy-nilly, I let the engine tell me what it wants. My cars don't crank on the starter either, you bump the key and they fire RIGHT NOW! I was at spring fling and heard plenty of cars cranking on the starter for extended periods, or having to crack the throttle to start... wanna guess what a major cause of that is?

It's my OPINION that total method is rotten for street cars. Again, MY OPINION, It's the lazy way to do it. If idle quality doesn't matter, have at it with total method. Just like you think my method is less than ideal. More than one way to skin a cat. One MAJOR issue about total method, how much mechanical advance is in the distributor. Is mechanical 28* or 14* or 22* or 16*... you get the idea. Idle quality varies greatly with a range like that. I sure am glad that MSD includes those useless mechanical advance limiter bushings with their distributors, cause according to some, they just don't matter (total timing group).

One thing you can't argue with, if the engine picks up rpm as you advance the timing at idle, it's running more efficiently. Same as using a vacuum gauge to set initial, picks up vacuum, the engine wants it.

--------------------------------------------------

For the OP, there is a set screw which you need to access from the bottom to open/close the secondaries of the carb. Lots of times the secondary arm is actually seated on your baseplate, not the set screw. A cheat is to get some feeler gauges and shim it from the top. Once you get it close you can remove the carb and turn the screw up so it holds the secondaries open a bit more, close the primaries down.

If you have only 7" of vacuum at idle, that cam is pretty dang big with lots of overlap.

Good luck with it.
Posted By: oldsklharo

Re: Hughes Torque Converter Break In Instructions??????? - 04/23/12 08:48 PM

Ok cool, how thick of feeler should I use to set the secondaries? .050, .060? I think I know where the set screw is but need to know how much they need to be open
Posted By: DARTH V8Я

Re: Hughes Torque Converter Break In Instructions??????? - 04/23/12 10:53 PM

Quote:

Ok cool, how thick of feeler should I use to set the secondaries? .050, .060? I think I know where the set screw is but need to know how much they need to be open


Oh God no! Lol! If I were to guess, maybe .005"-.006".. or so. Just so it raises you idle little. 100rpm(?).
Posted By: Challenger 1

Re: Hughes Torque Converter Break In Instructions??????? - 04/23/12 11:27 PM

Quote:



It's my OPINION that total method is rotten for street cars. Again, MY OPINION, It's the lazy way to do it. If idle quality doesn't matter, have at it with total method. Just like you think my method is less than ideal. More than one way to skin a cat. One MAJOR issue about total method, how much mechanical advance is in the distributor. Is mechanical 28* or 14* or 22* or 16*... you get the idea. Idle quality varies greatly with a range like that. I sure am glad that MSD includes those useless mechanical advance limiter bushings with their distributors, cause according to some, they just don't matter (total timing group).

One thing you can't argue with, if the engine picks up rpm as you advance the timing at idle, it's running more efficiently. Same as using a vacuum gauge to set initial, picks up vacuum, the engine wants it.

--------------------------------------------------



If you have only 7" of vacuum at idle, that cam is pretty dang big with lots of overlap.

Good luck with it.



Right on!!
Posted By: DOUGG

Re: Hughes Torque Converter Break In Instructions??????? - 04/23/12 11:31 PM

the sec. idle speed screw is under the sec. lever. virtually impossible to adjust with carb. on car. The holley manual (hanes) I have says turn it in till it just touches the lever, then 1 more turn. I replaced my set screw with allen head screw (lowes) so I can adjust while carb. is mounted.
Posted By: patrick

Re: Hughes Torque Converter Break In Instructions??????? - 04/24/12 01:09 AM

Quote:

9 times out of 10, if the idle speed drops significantly between neutral and drive, the problem is in the distributor, not the carb or converter.

If the mechanical advance springs in the distributor are too light, there will be just a touch of advance at idle speeds of 900-100 RPM (remember - factory idle is about 700 RPM). When you put it in gear, the idle slows just enough to let the advance spring pull back, which removes some of the timing, resulting in a bigger drop in idle RPM.

Since you have a converter which will flash to 2500, there is no point in having light springs in the distributor. I would install two medium springs, and reset your timing to 36 degrees @ 3000 RPM. (w/vacuum advance plugged off),



I think a half dozen of us told him that in the first thread, but guess we didn't type loud enough....
Posted By: patrick

Re: Hughes Torque Converter Break In Instructions??????? - 04/24/12 01:11 AM

Quote:

Grab distributor and twist it clockwise... it needs more initial. If the engine picks up RPM when you do that THE ENGINE WANTS THE TIMING, PERIOD!

Put 16 on it at idle, turn the idle speed down to 850-900, reset mix screws to highest vacuum and see what it does. You'll have to change the mechanical. been through this before, read the other post you started. Don't drive it until you alter the mechanical advance.

IMO, Total timing method is a rotten method for timing a street driven car.

Only time I have a tune up on a car like what you currently have is if it needs to be smogged!

Positive you don't have vacuum leak issues?



but that won't help the idle drop problem if his advance springs are too light and he's partially advanced in park, and the idle drop when putting it in gear pulls more timing out.
Posted By: RobX4406

Re: Hughes Torque Converter Break In Instructions??????? - 04/24/12 02:11 AM

Quote:

I had the initial around 18 and there was no deviation between park or in gear timing. It stays rock solid at 18 in both situations.




Idle drop already addressed!
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