Wheel change / adapters now car darts

Wheel change / adapters now car darts - 03/25/12 01:38 PM

I usually run a 15" steel wheel combo on my 68 road runner wih bfg radial ta's.
Its a manual drum brake and steering car. Drives straight as an arrow with no vibes.

I threw on a set of wheel adapters and 18" mustang bullit wheels for now and im experencing some problems. Took it out for a test drive and the front end is darting all over the place and very scary to drive. Almost like all the lug nuts are loose! Everything is tight for sure. Any ideas?? thank you!

Posted By: 79powerwagon

Re: Wheel change / adapters now car darts - 03/25/12 02:45 PM

Never ever use wheel adapters. They just plain don't work. Do it right instead.

Yes, there will be some people here chiming in saying that they haven't had any problems yet... YET!

I just can't believe that wheel adapters are still made. One of the most dangerous accessories for the hobbyist there is! Change your hubs to fit your wheels, or change your wheels to fit your hubs.

Posted By: 440challenger

Re: Wheel change / adapters now car darts - 03/25/12 03:30 PM

Well, I've been using adapters on my cherokee on 35's locked for 2 years without a hitch.

Just doesnt make sense why its completely all over the place at super low speeds, I dont dare bring it up to 50mph . The alignment couldnt need to be changed for different wheels could it?

Posted By: welderboy

Re: Wheel change / adapters now car darts - 03/25/12 03:46 PM

Nick - different offsets and footprint is gonna make it feel different. Tires arent the same size are they? If you feel a vibration I would say something is wrong with your spacer/wheel setup, if not it's probably just tire and wheel geometry...

Posted By: feets

Re: Wheel change / adapters now car darts - 03/25/12 04:33 PM

Step 1: Throw those Mustang wheels in the trash and get something that fits.

Step 2: If you ignore step 1, check the spacers to make sure they're flat against your front hubs and centered. Any little difference there will be amplified by the tires.

Step 3: Have the wheels and tires checked for balance and run out.

Step 4: Inspect the steering components and front end alignment.

The ancient technology BFG radials are not a high quality tire. They don't grab the road as well as a modern design and compound tire. If something is amiss up front the new tires will show you the problem long before the BFGs.

Posted By: Evil Spirit

Re: Wheel change / adapters now car darts - 03/25/12 04:59 PM

Quote:

I usually run a 15" steel wheel combo on my 68 road runner wih bfg radial ta's.
Its a manual drum brake and steering car. Drives straight as an arrow with no vibes.

I threw on a set of wheel adapters and 18" mustang bullit wheels for now and im experencing some problems. Took it out for a test drive and the front end is darting all over the place and very scary to drive. Almost like all the lug nuts are loose! Everything is tight for sure. Any ideas?? thank you!

Why would you need "adapters" - it should have been the same 5 on 4 1/2" bolt pattern? I might see using a thin - up to 1/4" - shim for clearance; much more than that and you end up with lug stud/nut issues. The "dartiness" shoud be able to be cured with a modern alignment with more caster.

And before anybody mentions the Ford wheels may be listed as 5 x 114.3 - thats Metric for 4 1/2" - same pattern. We actually use the 17" GT wheels on Intrepids and older 300's all the time.

Posted By: feets

Re: Wheel change / adapters now car darts - 03/25/12 06:00 PM

The Mustang wheels don't fit old cars. The backspacing is WAAAAAAY off. That's why the wheels look like crap. They're too shallow for old cars. The result is equivalent to domestic rice. You know, "I want the look but don't want to pay for the correct parts" kinda thing. Crap.

You have to bolt big fat spacers on the hubs to move the wheels out far enough to fit the car.
Another big problem is the small Ford center register. The hole in the middle won't fit over an old Mopar hub. A "proper" spacer will be hub centric to the hub and to the wheel.

Again, most of this can be avoided by simply purchasing the correct wheels for the car.
They're really not that expensive but people want to save a few bucks and hack readily available stuff onto their cars.

Yes, I hacked plenty of stuff on the hot rod but when it came to wheels and tires I did it right.

Posted By: ahy

Re: Wheel change / adapters now car darts - 03/25/12 06:45 PM

Factory alignment on manual steer cars was zero to even negative caster and little to no negative camber. The low caster makes it easy to steer but not as stable.

With wider stickier tires alignment needs to be dialed in. If you can get at least 2 degrees positive caster (5 is better) and .5 degree negative camber (.75 ie better) I bet it will drive a lot better. It will be a little heavier to steer though.

Goes without saying, double check adapter installation and steering joints... tie rods ect. Wider rubber will exageratge any problem there.

Posted By: GO_Fish

Re: Wheel change / adapters now car darts - 03/26/12 12:08 AM

I put directional tread Gatorbacks 225/65-15 on the front of my GTS after a complete front end rebuild and p/s gearbox, and it was scary, all over the road. I changed to non-directional tread design (same size) and the wander was greatly reduced. It still is not where I'd like it to be, so I probably need to have the shop do an alignment with Ahy's specs. I do know for a fact that the last shop set the ride height way too low also.

Posted By: 440challenger

Re: Wheel change / adapters now car darts - 03/26/12 12:46 AM

Whew lot of haters. Im not a fan of the wheels my self , But i've had them kicking around and needed to throw something on the car to kick it around. To better explain the steering, its fine in a straight line,but if you turn slightly it feels VERY heavy and wants to dart to that side.

But im not going to change my alignment for these UGLY wheels so I'll set them by the trash

Posted By: 79powerwagon

Re: Wheel change / adapters now car darts - 03/26/12 01:00 AM

Quote:

Whew lot of haters.

Not haters, wisdom and experience.

If you're throwing out those rotten 'stang wheels, they'll work on Avenger!

Posted By: 440challenger

Re: Wheel change / adapters now car darts - 03/26/12 01:13 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Whew lot of haters.

Not haters, wisdom and experience.

If you're throwing out those rotten 'stang wheels, they'll work on Avenger!

LOL, yea.. i know its not the best combo. I was just wondering more ,how does a different size wheel/tire affect the steering so drastically where its not driveable, when to car drove perfect with a stock wheel. I was thinking maybe because the bad offset on these wheels the wheight of the wheel is not close to the centerline of the hub?

Posted By: AndyF

Re: Wheel change / adapters now car darts - 03/26/12 01:24 AM

The Mustang wheels should work just fine as long as they are properly mounted to your car. I covered this topic in my B-body book and showed several ways to make it work.

Using adapters is also just fine as long as the adapters are made correctly. Without seeing any pictures I can't tell you what you've done wrong, but obviously something isn't correct in your setup.

We run Mustang rims on the '68 Valiant track car and it goes 155 mph down the front straight. So I know that there isn't any problem at all with using Mustang rims on a muscle car Mopar.

Posted By: roe

Re: Wheel change / adapters now car darts - 03/26/12 01:31 AM

Quote:

Whew lot of haters. Im not a fan of the wheels my self , But i've had them kicking around and needed to throw something on the car to kick it around. To better explain the steering, its fine in a straight line,but if you turn slightly it feels VERY heavy and wants to dart to that side.

But im not going to change my alignment for these UGLY wheels so I'll set them by the trash

Those look pretty nice on there to me

Posted By: GO_Fish

Re: Wheel change / adapters now car darts - 03/26/12 01:34 AM

What kind of tire and tread pattern are you running??

Posted By: feets

Re: Wheel change / adapters now car darts - 03/26/12 03:58 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Whew lot of haters. Im not a fan of the wheels my self , But i've had them kicking around and needed to throw something on the car to kick it around. To better explain the steering, its fine in a straight line,but if you turn slightly it feels VERY heavy and wants to dart to that side.

But im not going to change my alignment for these UGLY wheels so I'll set them by the trash

Those look pretty nice on there to me

The wheels are too flat for a muscle car. The offset pushes the spokes outward so far there's hardly any lip on the wheel. It's a classic design but a poor imitation.

See the flat Mustang wheel?

See the deep dish classic Torque Thrust?

Which would fit the style of the car better?

You can get the old deep wheels in larger diameters if that's what you're after. Then, you can throw the Mustang wheels in the trash.

If you're dead set on running the new junk on your car, pull a front wheel off. Put pointer beside the wheel adapter (use a jack or jack stand if necessary) and spin the hub. Make sure the adapter is centered and not offset.

If everything is square, put the old tires on the car and drive it to an alignment shop. Put the adapters and Mustang wheels on the car in their parking lot and have the car aligned. Throw away the factory specs and the the caster and camber where it needs to be with modern tires.

Posted By: Evil Spirit

Re: Wheel change / adapters now car darts - 03/26/12 03:23 PM

Quote:

Whew lot of haters. Im not a fan of the wheels my self , But i've had them kicking around and needed to throw something on the car to kick it around. To better explain the steering, its fine in a straight line,but if you turn slightly it feels VERY heavy and wants to dart to that side.

But im not going to change my alignment for these UGLY wheels so I'll set them by the trash

I think you would be suprised how much better you would like the feel of your car with a "modern" alignment with your original wheels.

As to the adapters - a quality set of adapters can be used safely to correct for too much back spacing. I'd suggest regularly checking the inner lugnuts for torque; a little blue Loctite wouldn't hurt.

Now, as to the look - that's just personal opinion. I'd rather see a wheel that's too flat, as in a lot of back space, than the 35-40 series rubber bands on 18" rims - IMO those rims are the ones that need to be left by the trash.

Posted By: patrick

Re: Wheel change / adapters now car darts - 03/26/12 08:29 PM

Quote:

I usually run a 15" steel wheel combo on my 68 road runner wih bfg radial ta's.
Its a manual drum brake and steering car. Drives straight as an arrow with no vibes.

I threw on a set of wheel adapters and 18" mustang bullit wheels for now and im experencing some problems. Took it out for a test drive and the front end is darting all over the place and very scary to drive. Almost like all the lug nuts are loose! Everything is tight for sure. Any ideas?? thank you!

what width tires? I've noticed for the most part, anything over 225 width on the front tends to tramline and try follow the ruts worn into roads

Posted By: feets

Re: Wheel change / adapters now car darts - 03/27/12 03:54 AM

I run a 245/45-18 in front on the hot rod and never had a problem with tramlining. My wheels were built specifically for this car and the alignment was done accordingly.

Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Wheel change / adapters now car darts - 03/27/12 07:02 AM

Quote:

the front tends to tramline and try follow the ruts worn into roads

Tramline? How is it that I have never heard this term? Being on the west coast, I've heard terms like "bitchin", "far out", "radical".....The Boston guys say stuff like.."That car is wicked fast!"
Tramline....Hmmm. Oh, I run a 275 40 18 in the front of the Charger. I don't know what tramlinning is, but I doubt that my car does that. It steers where I want it, when I want it. NO wandering and NO following ruts or cracks in the road.

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Posted By: runinonmt

Re: Wheel change / adapters now car darts - 03/27/12 03:52 PM

Tramline as i train. It tries to follow a groove. Now back to the real problem. You have all of the advice you need now it's time to get busy. I suggest that if you plan to keep this setup you go over it all in detial. The 4-wheel guys beat on adapters mercilessly and have few problems if they are of quality. I suspect something is loose or bottomed out. My Stepson had a problem like this. It turned out to be the mag wheel nuts on his Magnum 500's bottomed out before completely tightening the front wheels. Check the bore size of the adapter,make sure it fits the hub and slides all of the way on. Make sure the lug nuts aren't bottomed out. What condition is the rest of the suspension in? Keep looking,you'll find it then wait for the Gibbs head slap.
Ron

Posted By: patrick

Re: Wheel change / adapters now car darts - 03/27/12 04:34 PM

Quote:

Quote:

the front tends to tramline and try follow the ruts worn into roads

Tramline? How is it that I have never heard this term? Being on the west coast, I've heard terms like "bitchin", "far out", "radical".....The Boston guys say stuff like.."That car is wicked fast!"
Tramline....Hmmm. Oh, I run a 275 40 18 in the front of the Charger. I don't know what tramlinning is, but I doubt that my car does that. It steers where I want it, when I want it. NO wandering and NO following ruts or cracks in the road.

here in MI we have a lot of overloaded semi's, and on asphalt highways, you tend to get ruts/dips where the road actually sinks from the heavy weight traffic. doesn't happen on concrete surfaces. my 5th ave, with the 255/50R17's would on certain roads kind of wander/dart back and forth as it tried to follow the ruts, as the ruts weren't quite the same track width as the car. my friend's 1996 impala SS with the same tires (and replacement 275/45R17's) was worse on these roads...the effect was still there, but not nearly as pronounced with the 205/75R15 snow tires. with the 255/50's, you could let go of the wheel on one stretch of US31, and the car would dart back and forth about 8", violently enough that it felt like you were going to jump into the next lane, but it would never waver out of the ruts. this phenomenon is tramlining

I have a feeling a little more toe in, and probably more caster would help things.

I know a lot of older cars like late 60's B's call for neutral to slightly toe out with their original alignment specs, which can really make a car feel skittish. these attributes get magnified with wider rubber.