Moparts

Wheel Hop ???

Posted By: Chi_Town_Runner

Wheel Hop ??? - 02/24/12 09:09 PM

I was going to post this on the race section but this is no race car so I thought I would try here first.

I have completely rebuilt my suspension to stock specs on my 4-speed ’68 RR. I have replaced all front end bushings(complete with rubber) new torsion bars ( .96), new rear springs (Springs & Things 1” over) new bushings on the rear springs, and new shocks.

Whenever I do an occasional hole shot I get wheel hop. I understand the problem but am looking for some direction. I don’t want to go with cal-tracks or traction bars. I believe my option is an adjustable pinion snubber.

Here’s my question (finally). This car is not an everyday driver but an occasional driver to car shows so I want to maintain if for the street. How high should I adjust the snubber in order to maintain most of my suspension travel and reduce the wheel hop, or, what other option may I have?

Thanks for any direction.

Frank
Posted By: stumpy

Re: Wheel Hop ??? - 02/24/12 09:20 PM

1" -1.5" from the floor at rest.
Posted By: fourgearsavoy

Re: Wheel Hop ??? - 02/24/12 10:16 PM

Stiff rear shocks preferably with adjustable rebound My car would actually get three wheels off the ground on the hit before I went to a better adjustable shock
My buddy has a picture of my car with both front wheels and the left rear tire about 2 inches off the ground on the rebound
Gus

Attached picture 7088459-MYBURNOUT.jpg
Posted By: davenc

Re: Wheel Hop ??? - 02/25/12 04:17 AM

Did you check your pinion angle after changing the rear springs? I bet it is off and is contributing to your problems.
Posted By: roadhazard

Re: Wheel Hop ??? - 02/25/12 04:40 AM

I'd suggest clamping all the spring leaves in the front segment to the main leaf.
Wheel hop is caused by the front spring segment bending into an "S" shape. When this happens the spring overloads the shock and can not control the spring.
Also make sure the pinion snubber isn't touching the floor need at least 1.5" clearance if using one.
Quality shocks are always a good idea.

All that's on my car is leafs, QA-1 shocks and no snubber and she'll 60' high 1.38's - 1.40's footbraking.

Posted By: Chi_Town_Runner

Re: Wheel Hop ??? - 02/25/12 04:56 AM

Quote:

Did you check your pinion angle after changing the rear springs? I bet it is off and is contributing to your problems



I did check and it's OK

Quote:

Quality shocks are always a good idea



I just installed edelbrock shocks. I'm sure there are better quality shocks but for my use I thought they might be OK - Opinion?

I'm going to try the pinion snubber. Thanks for the 1.5" recommendation from stumpy and roadhazard. I'll have to look into the QA-1s.

After I order it and install I'll get back.

Thanks to all.

Frank
Posted By: Locomotion

Re: Wheel Hop ??? - 02/25/12 02:16 PM

Stiffer shocks.
My car occasionally wheel-hopped with the old Mopar automatic drag shocks - with SS springs! I considered trying their 4-speed drag shocks but went with Rancho adjustables, and no problems since then. I kept the piniuon snubber on.

The harder the car tries to leave, especially like with a 4-speed, the more "control" you need. Shocks have to be able to control the winding and unwinding of the leaf springs.
Posted By: 70Cuda383

Re: Wheel Hop ??? - 02/25/12 02:22 PM

I've always heard "just say no to a pinion snubber" they're the bandaid eqivilant to slapper bars and not that great.

good shocks, correct pinion angle, and clamp up the front section of the springs, while removing clamps from the rear is what I've always heard recommended.

I'll be doing that myself here pretty soon, my dakota will wheel hop pretty bad especially if there a tiny bit of moisture out. through first and second gear.
Posted By: roadhazard

Re: Wheel Hop ??? - 02/25/12 03:22 PM

Well seeing as you have a decent set of shocks I'd start with the simple, cheap and easy stuff first.

1) Check to see if you have 1.5" of clearance between the pinion snubber and the body. If it's too close the car will tend to porpous.

2) Spring clamps are your friend Clamp every leaf in the front segment to the main leaf. This makes the front of the leaf spring stiffer.
This is the Mopar traction bar

3) If the above doesn't work try removing the pinion snubber and see what happens

4) If all the above fails check into some new shocks. Some adjustable Rancho's or QA-1 Stocker Stars.

If 1 & 2 don't get you squared away I'd be suprised
Posted By: Challenger 1

Re: Wheel Hop ??? - 02/25/12 03:25 PM

Quote:

.

2) Spring clamps are your friend Clamp every leaf in the front segment to the main leaf. This makes the front of the leaf spring stiffer.
This is the Mopar traction bar




This is what I have done a few times with wore out 318 cars and it eliminated the wheel hop completely without a snubber, worked great for me.
Posted By: Chi_Town_Runner

Re: Wheel Hop ??? - 02/25/12 05:27 PM

I'll get some spring clamps today and see.

Thanks all.

Frank
Posted By: jbc426

Re: Wheel Hop ??? - 02/25/12 07:38 PM

Mopars typically don't wheel hop unless something is amiss. Chevy's are notoriously brutal wheel hoppers unless you run ladder bars or something.

A snubber should be touching the floor on a stick car, which is just too brutal on the ride quality to live with even for a short time.

(Although determining pinion angle is a confusing and contested subject)Check your pinion centerline angle in relation to the engine/transmission centerline angle. Let us know what it is. You can use a cheap magnetic angle finder available at most hardware stores. Remeber you are measuring the angle on the front of the rear end and on the rear of the engine/ trans, so be careful how you compare the angles in relation to each other to determin the pinions angle in relation to the angle of the engine trans/ centerline.

I bet it's off. You can use spring perch wedges to get it corrected up to a point. Then comes relocating your spring perches.

Correcting the pinion angle and clamping the front spring segments, and possibly removing some clamps from the rear segments should be all you need if you have some decent rear shocks.
Posted By: kilroy

Re: Wheel Hop ??? - 02/26/12 03:28 AM

What are you guys using for spring clamps? Bolts and flat steel? Actual spring clamps? and from where.
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: Wheel Hop ??? - 02/26/12 05:46 AM

Quote:

What are you guys using for spring clamps? Bolts and flat steel? Actual spring clamps? and from where.

One inch wide by 1/4 inch thick straps and 3/8 bolts and nuts work good for me, make your own with a hacksaw and 3/8 drill motor Measure to see how many feet of the one inch strap you need( see how many clamps and how long you want each strap X 2 and you got it and buy it at a local steel supply place Installed them with all the weight on the car, don't jack the car up and let the springs and rear end hang down
Posted By: kilroy

Re: Wheel Hop ??? - 02/26/12 02:20 PM

Quote:

Quote:

What are you guys using for spring clamps? Bolts and flat steel? Actual spring clamps? and from where.

One inch wide by 1/4 inch thick straps and 3/8 bolts and nuts work good for me, make your own with a hacksaw and 3/8 drill motor Measure to see how many feet of the one inch strap you need( see how many clamps and how long you want each strap X 2 and you got it and buy it at a local steel supply place Installed them with all the weight on the car, don't jack the car up and let the springs and rear end hang down



Cool thanks, that probably what I would have done anyway $$$$ ya know, but I wondered what the other side was using.
Posted By: Chi_Town_Runner

Re: Wheel Hop ??? - 03/04/12 11:50 PM

Hurray !!!!!!

I fabed up 4, 1/4" steel plates, two 1.5' wide and the other 2 were 2" wide with 2 - 7/16 bolts for each. These two clamps were used on the front sections of the leaf springs on each side (total of 4 clamps).

No more wheel hop.

Worked great and no slapper bars.

Thanks again to all for the help.

Frank
Posted By: Evil Spirit

Re: Wheel Hop ??? - 03/05/12 03:10 AM

Glad the spring clamps worked for you - they usually do. Wheel hop is usually caused by the front of the spring wrapping up, or the deflection and rebound of the spring eye bushings. Shock absorbers can dampen the effect, but are not the cause of it. And pinion angle has nothing to do with it - it deals with driveshaft vibration and u-joint life and has nothing to do with wheel hop or traction.
Posted By: Rick_Ehrenberg

Re: Wheel Hop ??? - 03/05/12 05:25 AM

Not much on the street better than quadrashocks. No suspension geometry or rate changes, full travel, no ride harshness increase, stops hop on accel AND braking. 30 minute bolt on.

FFI has the kit.

Rick
Posted By: Sledge_57

Re: Wheel Hop ??? - 03/05/12 06:32 AM

I know he found his answer but I'll throw one more out there to consider. Wheel balance....

When I bought my Coronet the wheel hop was terrible, I tried a snubber etc..

Eventually went to Cal Tracs and when I did I also changed to the steel rear wheels and Drag Radials I now have.

No more wheel hop, I assumed it was the Cal Tracs until I had to put my Torque Thrusts and BFG's back on for a week or so.

Oh look, the wheel hop is back, my wheels were balanced or so I thought.

Took it in had those tires/wheels rebalanced and wheel hop was gone.
Posted By: CUDA8U

Re: Wheel Hop ??? - 03/05/12 06:53 AM

Quote:

Hurray !!!!!!

I fabed up 4, 1/4" steel plates, two 1.5' wide and the other 2 were 2" wide with 2 - 7/16 bolts for each. These two clamps were used on the front sections of the leaf springs on each side (total of 4 clamps).

No more wheel hop.

Worked great and no slapper bars.

can you post pics?

Thanks again to all for the help.

Frank

Posted By: jbc426

Re: Wheel Hop ??? - 03/05/12 07:07 AM

Quote:

........... And pinion angle has nothing to do with it - it deals with driveshaft vibration and u-joint life and has nothing to do with wheel hop or traction.



Good news on the inexpensive fix.

The above statement, however is really not accurate information and simply not true in all cases.

Correcting out of spec pinion angle can stop a lot of cars from wheel hoping in addition to being easier on driveline parts and reducing vibration.

You can always Google "can pinion angle cause wheel hop" and decide for yourself.
Posted By: Evil Spirit

Re: Wheel Hop ??? - 03/05/12 07:46 AM

Quote:

Quote:

........... And pinion angle has nothing to do with it - it deals with driveshaft vibration and u-joint life and has nothing to do with wheel hop or traction.



Good news on the inexpensive fix. This statement is bad information and simply not true in all cases though. You can Google "pinion angle... wheel hop" and decide for yourself.



The Google search brings up the same yap in other discussion groups as it does here, with no mechanical theory to prove it. The means that you use to change pinion angle may change traction, not the angle change itself. A shim between the perch and the spring to change the angle lowers the car, changing instant center and traction. Changing the pinion angle with the lower link in a ladder bar changes wheelbase, instant center and traction. Apply "X" amount of torque to the pinion and it will try to rotate the ring gear with "X" amount of force - it doesn't matter if you apply that torque from the pinion at the 3, 6, 9, or 12 o'clock position - the pinion will apply the same amount of force. Feel free to use mechanical logic and not unproven quotes from other discussion groups to show how pinion angle can change traction, or create wheelhop.
Posted By: jbc426

Re: Wheel Hop ??? - 03/05/12 07:56 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

........... And pinion angle has nothing to do with it - it deals with driveshaft vibration and u-joint life and has nothing to do with wheel hop or traction.



Good news on the inexpensive fix. This statement is bad information and simply not true in all cases though. You can Google "pinion angle... wheel hop" and decide for yourself.



The Google search brings up the same yap in other discussion groups as it does here, with no mechanical theory to prove it. The means that you use to change pinion angle may change traction, not the angle change itself. A shim between the perch and the spring to change the angle lowers the car, changing instant center and traction. Changing the pinion angle with the lower link in a ladder bar changes wheelbase, instant center and traction. Apply "X" amount of torque to the pinion and it will try to rotate the ring gear with "X" amount of force - it doesn't matter if you apply that torque from the pinion at the 3, 6, 9, or 12 o'clock position - the pinion will apply the same amount of force. Feel free to use mechanical logic and not unproven quotes from other discussion groups to show how pinion angle can change traction, or create wheelhop.



Unproven quotes? Ladder bars? Ok, you win.
Posted By: Evil Spirit

Re: Wheel Hop ??? - 03/05/12 08:11 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

........... And pinion angle has nothing to do with it - it deals with driveshaft vibration and u-joint life and has nothing to do with wheel hop or traction.



Good news on the inexpensive fix. This statement is bad information and simply not true in all cases though. You can Google "pinion angle... wheel hop" and decide for yourself.



The Google search brings up the same yap in other discussion groups as it does here, with no mechanical theory to prove it. The means that you use to change pinion angle may change traction, not the angle change itself. A shim between the perch and the spring to change the angle lowers the car, changing instant center and traction. Changing the pinion angle with the lower link in a ladder bar changes wheelbase, instant center and traction. Apply "X" amount of torque to the pinion and it will try to rotate the ring gear with "X" amount of force - it doesn't matter if you apply that torque from the pinion at the 3, 6, 9, or 12 o'clock position - the pinion will apply the same amount of force. Feel free to use mechanical logic and not unproven quotes from other discussion groups to show how pinion angle can change traction, or create wheelhop.



Unproven quotes? Ladder bars? Ok, you win.



I covered leaf spring cars by mentioning the shim between the spring and perch. I also included ladder bars because your "Google search" turned up people setting pinion angle on ladder bar cars.

The "pinion angle - traction" debate has went on here at least the 5 years or so that I've been a member. There hasn't been anybody yet that has come up with mechanical logic on how changing only the pinion angle changes traction.
Posted By: roadhazard

Re: Wheel Hop ??? - 03/05/12 04:45 PM

Quote:

Hurray !!!!!!

I fabed up 4, 1/4" steel plates, two 1.5' wide and the other 2 were 2" wide with 2 - 7/16 bolts for each. These two clamps were used on the front sections of the leaf springs on each side (total of 4 clamps).

No more wheel hop.

Worked great and no slapper bars.

Thanks again to all for the help.

Frank




Cheap & Easy

Greg
Posted By: Chi_Town_Runner

Re: Wheel Hop ??? - 03/05/12 05:09 PM

Quote:

can you post pics?




Here's a photo.

[image][/image]

Frank
Posted By: CUDA8U

Re: Wheel Hop ??? - 03/10/12 06:04 AM

Quote:

Quote:

can you post pics?




Here's a photo.

[image][/image]

thanks for posting pic

Frank

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