Posted By: larrymopar360
Do I need zinc additive? - 02/01/12 03:52 PM
I should have thought of this sooner; should I be using a zinc additive in my stock 1980 E58 Aspen?
Thanks.
Thanks.
Do I need zinc additive?
Posted By: chargincharles
Re: Do I need zinc additive? - 02/01/12 04:00 PM
If it were me- Anything made before 1990 gets Zinc additive- or I run Delvac or Rotella or comparable diesel oil. Not the synthetic though. The standard diesel oils have a high zinc content.
Run a search of the forum, you will find a number of posts about this topic.
CC.
Run a search of the forum, you will find a number of posts about this topic.
CC.
Posted By: Triggerfish
Re: Do I need zinc additive? - 02/01/12 05:30 PM
Posted By: Locomotion
Re: Do I need zinc additive? - 02/01/12 05:59 PM
It depends on the oil. But you have to do some looking and research because many of the newer diesel oils have had significant reductions in zinc and phosphorous content also.
If you prefer the added benefits of synthetics, Amsoil has a wide range of high zinc oils to choose from.
Amsoil Technical Bulletin on zinc
Amsoil source and additional info.
If you prefer the added benefits of synthetics, Amsoil has a wide range of high zinc oils to choose from.
Amsoil Technical Bulletin on zinc
Amsoil source and additional info.
Posted By: Moparnut426
Re: Do I need zinc additive? - 02/01/12 07:48 PM
anything I own NON roller gets it, Hell even my Full roller 408 gets it. Its good oil, and parts like it.
Im a Brad Penn guy, so everything I own except my 07 Charger, and my 79 John Deere 4230 gets brad penn, 2 harleys, my Demon, my Ramcharger, my 78 power wagon, everything.....
there is Brad penn 10w30
Kasey
Im a Brad Penn guy, so everything I own except my 07 Charger, and my 79 John Deere 4230 gets brad penn, 2 harleys, my Demon, my Ramcharger, my 78 power wagon, everything.....
there is Brad penn 10w30
Kasey
Posted By: larrymopar360
Re: Do I need zinc additive? - 02/02/12 06:13 AM
I know there are varying views on this, but I am a little concerned about synthetic in it due to very high mileage. I will at least use an additive now though. Thanks.
Posted By: BDW
Re: Do I need zinc additive? - 02/02/12 12:47 PM
Hard to beat Lucas for the money.
One bottle of the break-in additive will do 3-4 oil changes.
Local Advanced Autos carry it too, so no shipping.
One bottle of the break-in additive will do 3-4 oil changes.
Local Advanced Autos carry it too, so no shipping.
Posted By: scratchnfotraction
Re: Do I need zinc additive? - 02/02/12 02:11 PM
a small bottle of STP will do fine
the red bottle for 4 cyls has more than the blue on the ZDDP
lucas/hughes/comp/GM break in additives will work.
I just use a blue bottle of STP in my 440 with a 10/30 napa house brand oil change.
I use a napa gold filter on all of mine
my roller cam in the SB gets a bottle of STP and the 10/30 oil also,cant hurt to run I geuss..but I did go roller for this reason,and its now in the 2nd engine with different roller lifters this time.
no need for to much snake oil additives,i think some of the gas tretment might help carbon up the valves like mine were
I am cheap and use the STP from walmart for 2.00$ a bottle
the red bottle for 4 cyls has more than the blue on the ZDDP
lucas/hughes/comp/GM break in additives will work.
I just use a blue bottle of STP in my 440 with a 10/30 napa house brand oil change.
I use a napa gold filter on all of mine
my roller cam in the SB gets a bottle of STP and the 10/30 oil also,cant hurt to run I geuss..but I did go roller for this reason,and its now in the 2nd engine with different roller lifters this time.
no need for to much snake oil additives,i think some of the gas tretment might help carbon up the valves like mine were
I am cheap and use the STP from walmart for 2.00$ a bottle
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: Do I need zinc additive? - 02/02/12 02:29 PM
Quote:
If it were me- Anything made before 1990 gets Zinc additive- or I run Delvac or Rotella or comparable diesel oil. Not the synthetic though. The standard diesel oils have a high zinc content.
Run a search of the forum, you will find a number of posts about this topic.
CC.
Weren't the diesel oils changed about 4 years ago though ?
I would say he wants an ADDITIVE , how is break in lube formulated compared to an additive.
I think the best oil is one that has the zinc in it .
Posted By: scratchnfotraction
Re: Do I need zinc additive? - 02/02/12 04:32 PM
Quote:Quote:
If it were me- Anything made before 1990 gets Zinc additive- or I run Delvac or Rotella or comparable diesel oil. Not the synthetic though. The standard diesel oils have a high zinc content.
Run a search of the forum, you will find a number of posts about this topic.
CC.
Weren't the diesel oils changed about 4 years ago though ?
I would say he wants an ADDITIVE , how is break in lube formulated compared to an additive.
I think the best oil is one that has the zinc in it .
would 5 qrts of STP be enuff ZDDP?
I have used 2-3 qrts to quiet the rod knock down before..be me thinks it was a little to late at the time for ZDDP to save it.
Posted By: dogdays
Re: Do I need zinc additive? - 02/02/12 04:41 PM
For a stock 360? Guys, get real. Stock valve springs that have way less than 100# seat pressure, already broken in, with a .4" lift cam? Whatever oil you buy will have plenty of lubrication power. There are literally millions of flat tappet stock engines running around using whatever oil Grease Monkey puts in with no failures.
Find something more important to worry about. Like the high price of arugula at your local grocer's (No_Politics reference).
R.
Find something more important to worry about. Like the high price of arugula at your local grocer's (No_Politics reference).
R.
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: Do I need zinc additive? - 02/02/12 04:50 PM
Quote:
For a stock 360? Guys, get real. Stock valve springs that have way less than 100# seat pressure, already broken in, with a .4" lift cam? Whatever oil you buy will have plenty of lubrication power. There are literally millions of flat tappet stock engines running around using whatever oil Grease Monkey puts in with no failures.
Find something more important to worry about. Like the high price of arugula at your local grocer's (No_Politics reference).
R.
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: Do I need zinc additive? - 02/02/12 04:51 PM
Quote:Quote:Quote:
If it were me- Anything made before 1990 gets Zinc additive- or I run Delvac or Rotella or comparable diesel oil. Not the synthetic though. The standard diesel oils have a high zinc content.
Run a search of the forum, you will find a number of posts about this topic.
CC.
Weren't the diesel oils changed about 4 years ago though ?
I would say he wants an ADDITIVE , how is break in lube formulated compared to an additive.
I think the best oil is one that has the zinc in it .
would 5 qrts of STP be enuff ZDDP?
I have used 2-3 qrts to quiet the rod knock down before..be me thinks it was a little to late at the time for ZDDP to save it.
The zinc is for the cam and lifters not the bearings.
Posted By: 1968 Charger B5
Re: Do I need zinc additive? - 02/02/12 04:59 PM
I tend to run VR-1 in my cars, 20w-50 during hot months...
OR rotella...
However...I will say one thing....
I have an 87 Ramcharger that I installed a rebuilt 440...when i broke the engine in I did the usual...run at different rpms for 1/2 hour holding, and used straight30w detergent oil....HOWEVER, since then, it gets whatever cheap-ass-shitty oil I can buy on discount from whatever store....it was my daily driver from 98-07 with that engine....now its a plow truck, but the engine starts and runs just fine...all this zinc talk...and the cheap oil never had ANY effect on the 440.....maybe its just a testament to how great Mopar engines are...
Rick
OR rotella...
However...I will say one thing....
I have an 87 Ramcharger that I installed a rebuilt 440...when i broke the engine in I did the usual...run at different rpms for 1/2 hour holding, and used straight30w detergent oil....HOWEVER, since then, it gets whatever cheap-ass-shitty oil I can buy on discount from whatever store....it was my daily driver from 98-07 with that engine....now its a plow truck, but the engine starts and runs just fine...all this zinc talk...and the cheap oil never had ANY effect on the 440.....maybe its just a testament to how great Mopar engines are...
Rick
Posted By: dogdays
Re: Do I need zinc additive? - 02/03/12 06:18 PM
No, it's a testament to how stock cams and wimpy valve springs don't need much lubrication to survive.
R.
R.
Posted By: scratchnfotraction
Re: Do I need zinc additive? - 02/03/12 11:39 PM
Quote:Quote:Quote:Quote:
If it were me- Anything made before 1990 gets Zinc additive- or I run Delvac or Rotella or comparable diesel oil. Not the synthetic though. The standard diesel oils have a high zinc content.
Run a search of the forum, you will find a number of posts about this topic.
CC.
Weren't the diesel oils changed about 4 years ago though ?
I would say he wants an ADDITIVE , how is break in lube formulated compared to an additive.
I think the best oil is one that has the zinc in it .
would 5 qrts of STP be enuff ZDDP?
I have used 2-3 qrts to quiet the rod knock down before..be me thinks it was a little to late at the time for ZDDP to save it.
The zinc is for the cam and lifters not the bearings.
you didnt get it did you John?
Posted By: larrymopar360
Re: Do I need zinc additive? - 02/04/12 08:30 AM
If a little zinc additive won't hurt it I would rather have it for extra peace of mind. It is a high mileage stock E58. I would feel better with it. Mike: I am going to run a fuel system cleaner thru it too, thanks.
L
L
Posted By: Rug_Trucker
Re: Do I need zinc additive? - 02/05/12 12:36 AM
I'd be willing to bet any diesel oil will have plenty ZDDP in it for a stock 360.
Rotella synthetic blend?
I bought a bunch of STP oil stabilizer. (no longer made) Nothing to use it in right now.
Rotella synthetic blend?
I bought a bunch of STP oil stabilizer. (no longer made) Nothing to use it in right now.
Posted By: Junky
Re: Do I need zinc additive? - 02/05/12 08:36 PM
FWIW, todays heavy duty (diesel oil) all fleet dino engine oil averages 1200 ppm zddp. Plenty for a stock(ish) engine. I run the 15W40 Shell Rotella. Broke in my .518" lift cam with the stuff and a splash of STP. The synthetic HDEO is a little higher in zddp.
Posted By: DARTH V8Я
Re: Do I need zinc additive? - 02/05/12 09:58 PM
Quote:
I should have thought of this sooner; should I be using a zinc additive in my stock 1980 E58 Aspen?
Thanks.
The cheapeast wallmart brand oil available today is lightyears ahead of the best oil in the 70s/80s/ most of the 90s. Imo, I wouldn't worry about adding zinc. Especially in a hydraulic cammed engine.
Posted By: Pacnorthcuda
Re: Do I need zinc additive? - 02/05/12 10:30 PM
Quote:Quote:
I should have thought of this sooner; should I be using a zinc additive in my stock 1980 E58 Aspen?
Thanks.
The cheapeast wallmart brand oil available today is lightyears ahead of the best oil in the 70s/80s/ most of the 90s. Imo, I wouldn't worry about adding zinc. Especially in a hydraulic cammed engine.
While the oil is better in MOST aspects, its NOT better at lubricating the extremely small contact patch between a cam lobe and its lifter face. Zinc/Phosphorus is/was added to aid in this task.
Problem---modern engines have Catalytic converters, Zinc/PH deposits attack and destroy the reactive metals in a cat that are required in order for it to function. BUT----modern engines are roller cammed and do not require the Zinc/PH, so the EPA drastically reduced the Zinc/PH in oils so that cats will live longer.
Hydraulic or solid has nothing to do with it. Spring rates and lift does.
True a smogger 360 needs little zinc to live, but its still a concern.
Posted By: DARTH V8Я
Re: Do I need zinc additive? - 02/05/12 10:51 PM
All true but as I said, for his stock E58, its nothing to be worried about. Just maintain regular maitnence. But if it makes him fell better, go for it.
but as I said, for his stock E58, its nothing to be worried about. Just maintain regular maitnence. But if it makes him fell better, go for it.
Posted By: larrymopar360
Re: Do I need zinc additive? - 02/06/12 02:38 AM
Quote:It will always get regular maintenance from me. Thanks.
All true
Posted By: moparcanuk
Re: Do I need zinc additive? - 02/06/12 02:53 AM
Brad Penn has the correct amount of zinc and is cheaper than using an additive.
Posted By: BDW
Re: Do I need zinc additive? - 02/06/12 03:12 AM
Quote:
Brad Penn has the correct amount of zinc and is cheaper than using an additive.
Not even close, Lucas $15, 3 servings per container, so it works out to $5/oil extra per change.
Try to find Brad Penn for less than $7/qt not including shipping.
Posted By: dodgeboy11
Re: Do I need zinc additive? - 02/06/12 03:17 AM
Quote:Quote:Quote:
I should have thought of this sooner; should I be using a zinc additive in my stock 1980 E58 Aspen?
Thanks.
The cheapeast wallmart brand oil available today is lightyears ahead of the best oil in the 70s/80s/ most of the 90s. Imo, I wouldn't worry about adding zinc. Especially in a hydraulic cammed engine.
While the oil is better in MOST aspects, its NOT better at lubricating the extremely small contact patch between a cam lobe and its lifter face. Zinc/Phosphorus is/was added to aid in this task.
Problem---modern engines have Catalytic converters, Zinc/PH deposits attack and destroy the reactive metals in a cat that are required in order for it to function. BUT----modern engines are roller cammed and do not require the Zinc/PH, so the EPA drastically reduced the Zinc/PH in oils so that cats will live longer.
Hydraulic or solid has nothing to do with it. Spring rates and lift does.
True a smogger 360 needs little zinc to live, but its still a concern.
This is something that always crosses my mind: the zinc ruins the cats so they took it out, but if the rings are in good shape, there should be hardly any zinc getting to the cat. And the zinc makes the rings last longer too. So we took the zinc out of the oil to save the cats and make the rings wear out faster? Just doesn't make much sense to me.
Posted By: moparcanuk
Re: Do I need zinc additive? - 02/06/12 03:51 AM
Quote:Quote:
Brad Penn has the correct amount of zinc and is cheaper than using an additive.
Not even close, Lucas $15, 3 servings per container, so it works out to $5/oil extra per change.
Try to find Brad Penn for less than $7/qt not including shipping.
I get it for $6 a quart at a local Penn dealer here in the Great White North. Should be cheaper in the US.
Posted By: 05dakota
Re: Do I need zinc additive? - 02/06/12 03:56 AM
almost impossible to find here
Posted By: CompSyn
Re: Do I need zinc additive? - 02/06/12 07:44 PM
Quote:Quote:
The cheapeast wallmart brand oil available today is lightyears ahead of the best oil in the 70s/80s/ most of the 90s. Imo, I wouldn't worry about adding zinc. Especially in a hydraulic cammed engine.
While the oil is better in MOST aspects, its NOT better at lubricating the extremely small contact patch between a cam lobe and its lifter face. Zinc/Phosphorus is/was added to aid in this task.
Problem---modern engines have Catalytic converters, Zinc/PH deposits attack and destroy the reactive metals in a cat that are required in order for it to function. BUT----modern engines are roller cammed and do not require the Zinc/PH, so the EPA drastically reduced the Zinc/PH in oils so that cats will live longer.
Hydraulic or solid has nothing to do with it. Spring rates and lift does.
True a smogger 360 needs little zinc to live, but its still a concern.
Zinc Tunnel Vision...
Both the above quotes have elements of truth to them. Yes, zinc content in motor oil is of high importance with respect to flat tappet camshafts. However, there are other important aspects to motor oil quality that is worth a look as well. Such aspects include: Foaming Tendency, Volatility, Depositing, Seal Compatibility, Shear Resistance, and Sludge Control to name a few factors that contribute to a comprehensive motor oil package.
Being focused on zinc content alone may limit us from having a true performer in our motor oil. While an API (SG) rated motor oil from 1993 has the higher level of zinc we’re after, it also lacks in all the other qualities mentioned above.
If we can combine modern motor oil base stocks and a modern additive package with pre-2004 zinc levels; now we have the best of both worlds.
Posted By: DARTH V8Я
Re: Do I need zinc additive? - 02/06/12 10:55 PM
SO what your telling me is that in a normal street driven engine, a engine with say Amsoil outlast an engine with the cheapest wallmart brand oil? For things such as rings/bearings/cyl.walls/etc. Not arguing, I'm just curious if this is correct.
Posted By: scratchnfotraction
Re: Do I need zinc additive? - 02/06/12 11:05 PM
Quote:
SO what your telling me is that in a normal street driven engine, a engine with say Amsoil outlast an engine with the cheapest wallmart brand oil? For things such as rings/bearings/cyl.walls/etc. Not arguing, I'm just curious if this is correct.
nothing last forever,run the [Edited by Moparts - Family Friendly Site - Keep it clean] out of it,when it blows build another one.
lifs to short to worry about the small stuff,rather drive my mopars even if it means they wear out.
Larry may never have trouble in the High milage cop engine but then again it could very well wipe a cam lobe some day due to low ZDDP
snake oil,its been around for a long long time,if your not impressed yet,tell me what you want to hear..
Posted By: Rug_Trucker
Re: Do I need zinc additive? - 02/07/12 12:34 AM
All I know is I was looking for some 10-30 diesel oil. The only thing Walmart sells is a synthetic blend. I emailed them about the percentage of synthetic........never got a reply.
I have been running it in my '93 Corolla that has 161K on it. I just bought it 9000mi ago. The original owner used to substitute a quart of oil with Duralube according to the documentation that came with it.
I have been using 15-40 Valvoline in the Cummins.
Roller cam engines don't need as much zinc? OHC's? No idea.
I have been running it in my '93 Corolla that has 161K on it. I just bought it 9000mi ago. The original owner used to substitute a quart of oil with Duralube according to the documentation that came with it.
I have been using 15-40 Valvoline in the Cummins.
Roller cam engines don't need as much zinc? OHC's? No idea.
Posted By: CompSyn
Re: Do I need zinc additive? - 02/07/12 01:54 AM
Quote:
SO what your telling me is that in a normal street driven engine, a engine with say Amsoil outlast an engine with the cheapest wallmart brand oil? For things such as rings/bearings/cyl.walls/etc. Not arguing, I'm just curious if this is correct.
No! I'm not talking about the comparison of brands. I'm talking about the quality of differing American Petroleum Institute (API) service categories.
For example, category SN supersedes category SM. Category SM supersedes category SL. Category SL supersedes SJ... So on and so fourth.
SM was introduced in 2004 with reduced zinc and phosphorous levels. And even though SM was actually a better overall performing motor oil than all prior categories, it just had reduced anti-wear properties that flat-tappet camshafts in older high performance engines thrive on.
And that's what I'm taking about, when you can find a modern motor oil formulation with increased levels of zinc and phosphorous levels, it's a win-win.
What we don't want to do is find an old stash of SH or SG category motor oil thinking it's somehow better, it's not. First, motor oil has a three-to-five year shelf life; it degrades sitting on the shelf. And again, these older oils made under older service categories utilized inferior base oils and additives when compared to the ones utilized today.
The other thing we don't want to do is believe that zinc is the only and final say as to the overall performance of a motor oil, it's not. I've already noted many other attributes that makes a good comprehensive motor oil package. It's also a largely unregulated market. Someone can take cheap base oils and additives, throw in a bunch of zinc and market it as a muscle car motor oil. That doesn't make for a good oil. It makes for an under par oil with gobs of zinc, nothing more, nothing less.
Just a few things to take into consideration.