A500 vs. Gear Vendors

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The 518 can in no way rob more HP than a GV. The 518 only adds roteing weight in 1st 2nd and 3rd, no other "drag" is added, the pump is not doing any work holding clutches or bands or line preasure or any thing. The GV adds a similar amount of rotateing weight in all gears combined with an almost useless extra gear. The OD section can easily have clutches added, if you use the 48RE OD section it can handle 800 lbs tq easily!

As for the 1 second difference in ET from a 727 to a 518 I say BULL CRAP! Like I mentioned earlier, there is a few pounds added to the rotateing weight, thats IT! In first second and third there is some extra weight and in no way can those few extra pounds knock off 1 second in ET. If the trannys get equal prep it can't be more than a couple tenths. If 5-10 pounds in rotateing weight could really knock off 1 second then every car could switch from a steel drive shaft to carbon fibre and gain a second

Show us the math on the "worthless extra gear". I'll even give you the parameters. 3.73 rear gear, 28" tall rear tire, 4000lb car.

Also has anyone factored the cost of modifying the trans tunnel or the loss of perceived value with a hacked up cross member?

the worthless extra gear comment meaning this:

3rd (direct) at 75mph with 28" tires and 3.73 assuming no converter slip: 3350 RPM, mist likely 3500 w/converter slip

gear vendors OD drops it to 2650 RPM no converter slip, most likely 2800-2850 with slip

518 OD drops it to ~2320 RPM, with no converter slip. you won't have converter slip if using a lockup converter...

IMHO a .78 OD is not enough OD to warrant the cost... [/quote}

Cost aside - 700 rpm drop is not worthless. The 518 is better from that standpoint, but what option do you have if you don't want to hack up your car? Keisler GM adaptation? Better first ratio and as good or better O/D ratio.

Posted By: patrick

Re: A500 vs. Gear Vendors - 01/06/12 09:41 PM

IIRC '71 up....search the forums, I know way back there was a post with pictures...

Posted By: furious70

Re: A500 vs. Gear Vendors - 01/06/12 09:55 PM

I have an a500 in my Fury and I'm very happy with it. Required 0 modification to the car, just had to have a new cross member and had to adapt a B&M cable for use with the OEM console shifter. We've had GV in a truck and it just plain didn't make enough difference to be worth it at .78 IMO. FWIW I think I paid around $3200 for mine, and that was drive in drive out with a 383 sitting in front of it. I have a 727 bell welded on and the trans sits exactly where it should in the car so that all kick down and shifter linkage work perfectly and there are no shims to deal with.

Posted By: BDW

Re: A500 vs. Gear Vendors - 01/06/12 11:24 PM

Has anyone posted a comprehensive how-to on the swap from 727 to A500?

The OD really has me interested. The 3.73 gears are nice for around town, but I'd like to eventually do some road trips, maybe even the power tour someday.

Posted By: DaytonaTurbo

Re: A500 vs. Gear Vendors - 01/06/12 11:59 PM

There's a lot of info on the forum here on how to do it.

Basically the hardest part is mounting the trans. Space wise there's not much difference between a 500 and 518. Both can be built to take a decent amount of HP, so it boils down to which one you want. IIRC the JW ultrabell will bolt a big block to a 518 but not a 500. E body and 71+ B body don't require torsion bar crossmember or floor pan mods. 1_wild_rt posted pics and instructions on this several years ago. Older b-bodies to require the crossmember to be trimmed. The mount to hold up the trans will have to be custom fabbed by you. Torq converter selection is a little tougher with the lockup 500/518, however the lockup is nice for cruising and keeping the rpm down. A non-lockup 500/518 will use a regular 904/727 converter.

Posted By: dfsmopars

Re: A500 vs. Gear Vendors - 01/07/12 03:19 AM

OK, it looks like the A500 is the ticket. I have two builders with very similar prices. So I have to decide which one makes the most sense for me.
I can install it and make my own cross member. Getting closer to that cross country road trip all the time.

Posted By: ramman5600

Re: A500 vs. Gear Vendors - 01/07/12 04:16 AM

This is some info that I recently got from a reputable company that sells both options when I was inquiring about the GV vs a 518.

"Having reviewed your tech submission and your request for information on our overdrive transmissions for your '70 Superbee with the 6.1 hemi, I offer the following information for your consideration.
As I had previously indicated, installation of the A500 or A518 will require extensive modification of your crossmember and floor pan modifications. In addition, the A500 or A518 will drastically increase the elapsed time on the strip by at least 1/2 second in the 1/4 mile, which in a street application will certainly be noticed in performance potential.

The option that I highly recommend for your application is our StreetPro 727A with the "Shortie Overdrive" option. This unit is only 7 1/4" longer than your 727 and is a direct bolt-in (other than driveshaft shortening). There are no floor modifications or crossmember fabrications required to install it the '70 B body. When installed, it will have fully automatic overdrive shifting functions like a new car. We have seen mileage increases as high as 50% with this unit. Dropping your cruising rpm drastically reduces engine wear and maintenance. This unit does not substantially increase power drag (slower e..t.) like the A518 Chrysler overdrive.
The "Shortie" version of our Street Pro series transmission has 4 direcct clutches and the 4 pinion planetary to take the extra load of the overdrive, which will also accomodate any future plans to increase your torque and horsepower up to the 500 h.p. level. For greater details see our website."

Just wanted to share and have no interest in this company.

Posted By: Dragula

Re: A500 vs. Gear Vendors - 01/07/12 04:17 AM

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I would pull a A500 from a junkyard truck for 100 bucks and pocket the rest. Or spend some of the money and rebuild/upgrade the A500. The 500 has a better overdrive ratio than the gear vendors and can be done substantially cheaper if you build the trans yourself.

I never saw one for $100 at the bone yard...Mine was $800 and in very good condition out of a 91 van. The problem with them is the OD, the way the factory lets it slide into lock is not very good for a hot rod. Some things need to be changed to make it work, and the valve body is the main area of changes. I recomend SMR trans for the parts and the changes needed. I run one with 4.56 gears, and shift into it at full throttle at times. Locks in just like any other gear when I flip the switch.

The GV unit will take 0hp away from your normal 3 speed operation where as the A500 is always robbing some hp because it drives thru the OD all the time. They say it can rob as much as 1sec in ET...

Also, if you use the lock-up, meaning a good lock up converter, your limited to about 400-450hp as the shaft into the converter is hollow. With the none lock-up converter, the shaft is a normal solid one, and it uses a normal 904 converter.

Posted By: NicksGarage

Re: A500 vs. Gear Vendors - 01/07/12 04:52 AM

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The option that I highly recommend for your application is our StreetPro 727A with the "Shortie Overdrive" option. This unit is only 7 1/4" longer than your 727 and is a direct bolt-in (other than driveshaft shortening).

What is this overdrive system? Is it a GearVendor product?

When I was building my '79 Dodge B+ motorhome I considered going to a 518 trans because my exsting trans was shot and I can get the 518 for less than a hundred bucks at the half price sales at the junkyard. I was looking at this type of conversion - http://www.transmissioncenter.net/SwapInformation.htm

Before I committed to it I asked around if this transmission would be a good choice for a motorhome (weighs 6500 pounds) and was told that the overdrive part would be too weak for this application. I ended up just building a standard 727. I would have liked the extra mileage. Now I have a new '74 camper which is around 7000 pounds and interested in overdrive again but this rig already has a good 727 in it and wonder if this shortie overdrive would work.

Posted By: ramman5600

Re: A500 vs. Gear Vendors - 01/07/12 04:56 AM

yes it is a GV setup. I think that the "shortie" thing is just a different adapter. On a side note the GV is used in dump trucks, garbage trucks and major pulling rigs, so I think it would handle your set-up. Everyone that I talked to and have read about who actually own one says that it is one of the best things that they have installed. i am still thinking as it is a big investment.

-c

Posted By: Dragula

Re: A500 vs. Gear Vendors - 01/07/12 04:57 AM

Here is the shorty..

http://smrtrans.tripod.com/smrtransmissionsintro/id32.html

Posted By: ramman5600

Re: A500 vs. Gear Vendors - 01/07/12 05:03 AM

Curious about thoughts on how much impact reducing engine rpm from 3100rpm @ 70mph (std 727 trans) vs 2550rpm @ 70 mph (with Gear Vendors) would have on the a 6.1 L hemi

Mileage?

Wear and tear?

Noise?

Other thoughts?

-C

Posted By: DaytonaTurbo

Re: A500 vs. Gear Vendors - 01/07/12 05:18 AM

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The GV unit will take 0hp away from your normal 3 speed operation where as the A500 is always robbing some hp because it drives thru the OD all the time. They say it can rob as much as 1sec in ET...

I have never seen one scrap of evidence to back up this claim. Not saying it's impossible, but I have never seen anything to substantiate this at all. Until I see a real, all things equal comparison between the two, I'm going to have to put this one right up there with the other myths like the thin wall 70's 440 blocks and low nickel late 70's mopar blocks.

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Before I committed to it I asked around if this transmission would be a good choice for a motorhome (weighs 6500 pounds) and was told that the overdrive part would be too weak for this application. I ended up just building a standard 727. I would have liked the extra mileage. Now I have a new '74 camper which is around 7000 pounds and interested in overdrive again but this rig already has a good 727 in it and wonder if this shortie overdrive would work.

So they didn't think the 518 would work in a 6500-7000lb motor home but it works just fine in dodge pickups that weigh 5000lbs on their own + tow that much in trailers, cars, campers, etc.

A good rebuild kit and the transgo tfod-hd2 shift kit is the ticket. With the right combination of parts you can also install extra clutches in the overdrive tail unit.

Posted By: DaytonaTurbo

Re: A500 vs. Gear Vendors - 01/08/12 05:15 AM

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Also has anyone factored the cost of modifying the trans tunnel or the loss of perceived value with a hacked up cross member?

Well if you can't manage the tunnel/crossmember mods yourself, then chances are you can't fab your own trans mount for the 518, and chances are you can't build your own 518 either. So if you have to farm all that out, you are probably at the same $ level as a gear vendors.

FWIW, the OP asked about a 72 charger. A 72 charger will not need the tunnel or crossmember modded. A 70 or earlier b-body would need those mods. If you have a car that would need the crossmember modded, and you're not comfortable with that, then yes chances are you would be happier with a gear vendors or a chevy 700r4 based auto like the keisler 4-sp auto. Also, from what I've gear, the gear vendors units still do require you to

your tunnel for clearance. You don't have to

and

but it's not a straight bolt in either from what I've read.

Posted By: DaytonaTurbo

Re: A500 vs. Gear Vendors - 01/08/12 05:16 AM

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Cost aside - 700 rpm drop is not worthless. The 518 is better from that standpoint, but what option do you have if you don't want to hack up your car? Keisler GM adaptation? Better first ratio and as good or better O/D ratio.

IMO it is worthless when you consider a comparable or lesser cost option like a 500/518 or chevy 700r4 will deliver a much superior overdrive ratio.

Posted By: wireweld

Re: A500 vs. Gear Vendors - 01/08/12 03:23 PM

What about the 200r4? Same ratio as the 904 w/low gear set and a nice .67 od. Can handle a good amount of power when built right. And no tunnel mods, just need to redo the cross member.

Posted By: cogen80

Re: A500 vs. Gear Vendors - 01/08/12 03:44 PM

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Cost aside - 700 rpm drop is not worthless. The 518 is better from that standpoint, but what option do you have if you don't want to hack up your car? Keisler GM adaptation? Better first ratio and as good or better O/D ratio.

200r. supposed to fit with no cutting the floor too. i want to see what this guy has to do to get it in his car. sounds like a decent option though. http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=169183&highlight=200r4

.

Posted By: NachoRT74

Re: A500 vs. Gear Vendors - 01/08/12 03:53 PM

I would add Gear Vendors for one simple reason. I don't think MYSELF would change an original part of my car, just making upgrades. Gear Vendor is an upgrade of the original part, is an ADD ON section on my original tranny.

Otherwise, I think there is not 727 replacements with OD for BBs... or yes ?

But that's me

anyway, I can't afford it LOL

Posted By: wireweld

Re: A500 vs. Gear Vendors - 01/08/12 04:17 PM

There is an adapter to adapt a 518 to a big block.

Posted By: DaytonaTurbo

Re: A500 vs. Gear Vendors - 01/08/12 07:34 PM

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I would add Gear Vendors for one simple reason. I don't think MYSELF would change an original part of my car, just making upgrades. Gear Vendor is an upgrade of the original part, is an ADD ON section on my original tranny.

Otherwise, I think there is not 727 replacements with OD for BBs... or yes ?

But that's me

anyway, I can't afford it LOL

All the overdrive options discussed in this thread are able to be used with a big block.

Posted By: DaytonaTurbo

Re: A500 vs. Gear Vendors - 01/08/12 07:38 PM

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What about the 200r4? Same ratio as the 904 w/low gear set and a nice .67 od. Can handle a good amount of power when built right. And no tunnel mods, just need to redo the cross member.

Yes, the GM 200-4R or the 700-R4 can be used. The 700 has the lower 3.00 first gear and the 200 has a 2.75 I think. Both are still lower than any stock 727. Either one can be built to handle a good amount of power and both are small enough to not require any crossmember or floor pan mods. You will still need to fab your own trans mount however. I think the only other real issue with those transmissions is you will need an aftermarket shifter. Their shift pattern is is PRND321 where the gear vendors and 500/518 have an electronically activated overdrive gear and will mate up to your stock shifter.

Posted By: HotRodDave

Re: A500 vs. Gear Vendors - 01/08/12 08:30 PM

So the GV needs NO fabrication to fit?

You can't tell me the GV will fit with no mods to the floor pan, it is much fatter than a driveshaft.

Patrick is right on about the my " ALMOST useless extra gear" comment so I won't explain it again.

The GM tranny does not just "bolt right in". How you gonna bolt in your starter? How you gonna hook up the kick-down cable to your carb? How you gonna bolt it to your mount? How you gonna bolt it to your drive shaft? I doubt it will turn out the exact same length, gonna have to shorten or lengthen the drive shaft, what about u-joints? Can you get one that adapts to a mopar drive shaft with a GM spline? I am not saying the GM trans won't work, it is gonna take a adapter plate, new converter and a whole lot more little things to figure out for a tranny that is no better than an A-500. BTW the shifter is of little concern, it just won't sho the extra position on the indicator but it will still work with a little creativity.

If you go with a generic trans don't waste time with the 200 go straight to the 700R4, the 2004R needs lots of mods to handle any serious power and FYI the 200metric and 200C are 3 speeds.

Posted By: ChinooK440

Re: A500 vs. Gear Vendors - 01/08/12 10:29 PM

I installed a G.V. unit in a 67 B body about 5 years ago and all that was needed was a slight amount of

about the size of a Quarter.to the trans tunnel in one spot .....
The entire installation took about 6 hours including multiple beer breaks.
If anyone considers that fabrication they probably spend to much time fabricating Doobies !

As far as a reduction of 700 rpm being useless???

There,s pro,s and Con,s to everything & It,s nice to have choices . some engine/gear combos might not need such a steep o.d. ratio .
If i had a small block like the o.p. i would have went with a 500/518 instead.

Posted By: wireweld

Re: A500 vs. Gear Vendors - 01/08/12 11:18 PM

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What about the 200r4? Same ratio as the 904 w/low gear set and a nice .67 od. Can handle a good amount of power when built right. And no tunnel mods, just need to redo the cross member.

Yes, the GM 200-4R or the 700-R4 can be used. The 700 has the lower 3.00 first gear and the 200 has a 2.75 I think. Both are still lower than any stock 727. Either one can be built to handle a good amount of power and both are small enough to not require any crossmember or floor pan mods. You will still need to fab your own trans mount however. I think the only other real issue with those transmissions is you will need an aftermarket shifter. Their shift pattern is is PRND321 where the gear vendors and 500/518 have an electronically activated overdrive gear and will mate up to your stock shifter.

Wilcap makes an adapter for this app.. I will use a floor shifter any so that will be taken care of. And yes you will need to make a trans mount, but how hard can that be, the 518 you need to do this also.

Posted By: HotRodDave

Re: A500 vs. Gear Vendors - 01/08/12 11:59 PM

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What about the 200r4? Same ratio as the 904 w/low gear set and a nice .67 od. Can handle a good amount of power when built right. And no tunnel mods, just need to redo the cross member.

Yes, the GM 200-4R or the 700-R4 can be used. The 700 has the lower 3.00 first gear and the 200 has a 2.75 I think. Both are still lower than any stock 727. Either one can be built to handle a good amount of power and both are small enough to not require any crossmember or floor pan mods. You will still need to fab your own trans mount however. I think the only other real issue with those transmissions is you will need an aftermarket shifter. Their shift pattern is is PRND321 where the gear vendors and 500/518 have an electronically activated overdrive gear and will mate up to your stock shifter.

Wilcap makes an adapter for this app.. I will use a floor shifter any so that will be taken care of. And yes you will need to make a trans mount, but how hard can that be, the 518 you need to do this also.

I know the chrysler OD will need a mount fabbed, just the way the generic trans option was stated it sounded like there was no fab work needed, I just wanted to clarify

Posted By: DaytonaTurbo

Re: A500 vs. Gear Vendors - 01/09/12 12:21 AM

Fab work is definitely needed for the chevy transmission, along with an adapter such as the wilcap plate mentioned. However if a person has a car in which a 500/518 won't fit without modding the crossmember, and if said person is dead set against that, doing a bit of extra work to get the chevy transmission to work would more likely to be worth it to them than it would be to you or me. I would sooner just mod the crossmember if it really needed it, because none of my cars are worth much anyway, I'm not scared of modding and it's not visible after.

You say the 200-4R is the weaker one, others online say the 700-R4 is the weaker one. I don't know who is right, I've heard claims both ways. I don't really care because I'm not in the market for either of those transmissions anyway. I know both of them will need more upgrades dumped into them to holdup behind a big block, where a 518 with a race rebuild kit and that transgo shift kit will do the job. To run the GM trans, at a minimum you will need a new driveshaft, trans adapter, fab trans mount and an aftermarket kickdown cable. Not sure what speedo cable will mate that trans up to your stock speedometer but I'm sure there's one. The point is it can be done with a reasonable amount of work.

Posted By: HotRodDave

Re: A500 vs. Gear Vendors - 01/09/12 12:29 AM

I don't get why fabbing a new crossmember is such a big deal for someone wanting an OD, the OD is clearly no stock

I can make one up and I am a poor fabricator and they only have like 5 bolts so I don't understand the big to-do

Posted By: wireweld

Re: A500 vs. Gear Vendors - 01/09/12 12:33 AM

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Fab work is definitely needed for the chevy transmission, along with an adapter such as the wilcap plate mentioned. However if a person has a car in which a 500/518 won't fit without modding the crossmember, and if said person is dead set against that, doing a bit of extra work to get the chevy transmission to work would more likely to be worth it to them than it would be to you or me. I would sooner just mod the crossmember if it really needed it, because none of my cars are worth much anyway, I'm not scared of modding and it's not visible after.

You say the 200-4R is the weaker one, others online say the 700-R4 is the weaker one. I don't know who is right, I've heard claims both ways. I don't really care because I'm not in the market for either of those transmissions anyway. I know both of them will need more upgrades dumped into them to holdup behind a big block, where a 518 with a race rebuild kit and that transgo shift kit will do the job. To run the GM trans, at a minimum you will need a new driveshaft, trans adapter, fab trans mount and an aftermarket kickdown cable. Not sure what speedo cable will mate that trans up to your stock speedometer but I'm sure there's one. The point is it can be done with a reasonable amount of work.

All these items can be done, even the speedo cable you can get. So, it is up to the owner as to which way to go.
I would use the reverse manual vb on either tranny, if it were me. I like to shift gears without the clutch.
Also, all these items you would need for the 518, except the adapter.

Posted By: cogen80

Re: A500 vs. Gear Vendors - 01/09/12 01:18 AM

from what i understand the 200 you only have to mod the bolt in part of the cross member. the 518 you have to cut the hell out of the upper ( welded to the floor) part of the cross member. the 200 would be a lot easier swap then the 518 in my opinion.

the 200 can be built to hold quite a bit of power with simple parts and nothing really exotic.
kickdown cable or what ever they call it is available just about anywhere, carb side bracket you can get easy also. they would both need plates to fit a big block. a 518 is huge and weighs a ton. both need a custom drive shaft.

Posted By: DaytonaTurbo

Re: A500 vs. Gear Vendors - 01/09/12 09:33 AM

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from what i understand the 200 you only have to mod the bolt in part of the cross member. the 518 you have to cut the hell out of the upper ( welded to the floor) part of the cross member. the 200 would be a lot easier swap then the 518 in my opinion.

Again, it depends on the vehicle. The OP was asking about a 72 charger. A 518 will fit in an e-body or 71+ b-body without having to chop the torsion bar crossmember.

One other thing to consider, last time I checked, the JW ultra bell to bolt a 518 to a BB was around $250 cheaper than that wilcap adapter, not to mention probably having to buy a special aftermarket flex plate to run the chevy torq converter. I know they also make an ultra bell to mate a BB to a chevy th350/400 trans but not sure if that would also work on a 200-4r or 700r4

Posted By: wireweld

Re: A500 vs. Gear Vendors - 01/09/12 03:03 PM

One other thing to consider, last time I checked, the JW ultra bell to bolt a 518 to a BB was around $250 cheaper than that wilcap adapter, not to mention probably having to buy a special aftermarket flex plate to run the chevy torq converter. I know they also make an ultra bell to mate a BB to a chevy th350/400 trans but not sure if that would also work on a 200-4r or 700r4

No, the flexplate comes with the wilcap, so nothing special.

Posted By: dfsmopars

Re: A500 vs. Gear Vendors - 01/10/12 04:49 AM

Thanks for all the input. I am still studying. I can't ever remember taking more time to decide on something on a build than this topic.

Posted By: feets

Re: A500 vs. Gear Vendors - 01/11/12 09:35 PM

I'm putting a 518 behind the TT440 in my 72 Imperial. The Ultra Bell is already in my garage.

Posted By: dfsmopars

Re: A500 vs. Gear Vendors - 01/12/12 04:39 AM

HotRoadDave, a PM sent your way again.