Moparts
Fresh Magnum 318 is a DOG!---UPDATE
Posted By: 69L78Nova
Fresh Magnum 318 is a DOG!---UPDATE - 12/27/11 05:09 PM
Got the new 318 fired up and running and something seems wrong. It has absolutely no power, sucks gas like a pig, idles kinda rough, and is hard as hell to start when cold. It's a stock piston Magnum 318 with a Summit K6900 cam. It also drags the starter at anything more than 2-3 degrees initial timing. It just feels lazy, and pretty much need to crack the secondaries to take off with traffic. It's as gutless as a 318-2 barrel. It's pulling 16-17 in/hg at 900 rpm. I'm wondering if the chain being off a tooth could be the culprit. I've tried 3 known good carbs and no matter what, it runs like crap. It currently has a box stock 625 Carter on it. I'm going to do a compression test tonight. I'm just hoping the cam isn't too big with the 1.6 rockers. I've run an XE256 in a stock LA318 with great results. The duration @.050" with the Summit cam is small enough, I thought it would be ok. Any thoughts?
Posted By: MR_P_BODY
Re: Fresh Magnum 318 is a DOG! - 12/27/11 05:15 PM
Did you degree the cam when you put it in... sounds
like the cam is retarded(put in wrong)
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: Fresh Magnum 318 is a DOG! - 12/27/11 05:38 PM
Quote:
Did you degree the cam when you put it in... sounds
like the cam is retarded(put in wrong)
what he said
Posted By: 69L78Nova
Re: Fresh Magnum 318 is a DOG! - 12/27/11 05:50 PM
I didn't degree it, just installed it dot to dot. It's the cam, lifters, pushrods, and timing set out of my old 360. I figured I should add the engine is in my 78 Fury, with headers, 2.5" duals, A500 trans, and 3.55s. So am I correct in assuming the cam isn't too big, and it should be pulling more vacuum than it is?
Posted By: MR_P_BODY
Re: Fresh Magnum 318 is a DOG! - 12/27/11 05:58 PM
Quote:
I didn't degree it, just installed it dot to dot. It's the cam, lifters, pushrods, and timing set out of my old 360. I figured I should add the engine is in my 78 Fury, with headers, 2.5" duals, A500 trans, and 3.55s. So am I correct in assuming the cam isn't too big, and it should be pulling more vacuum than it is?
If its retarded it will change the vac... is it too
big... I dont think so... but you HAVE TO DEGREE it
plus I'd advance it 4* so you get better low end torque
Posted By: Cab_Burge
Re: Fresh Magnum 318 is a DOG! - 12/27/11 06:21 PM
Quote:
Quote:
I didn't degree it, just installed it dot to dot. It's the cam, lifters, pushrods, and timing set out of my old 360. I figured I should add the engine is in my 78 Fury, with headers, 2.5" duals, A500 trans, and 3.55s. So am I correct in assuming the cam isn't too big, and it should be pulling more vacuum than it is?
If its retarded it will change the vac... is it too
big... I dont think so... but you HAVE TO DEGREE it
plus I'd advance it 4* so you get better low end torque
You may be able to align the dots in 12 motors and the 13th, or 25th one will bite you. Always take the time to degree them from now on 
Posted By: 69L78Nova
Re: Fresh Magnum 318 is a DOG! - 12/27/11 06:55 PM
I guess its time to dig the degree wheel out. I do have the offset keyway package as well and adjustable piston stop as well. I have everything to do it. I just never had much confidence when it came to doing that. What better way to learn than to try I guess! I figured it should at least have a decent amount of power for a 318.
Posted By: 70Cuda383
Re: Fresh Magnum 318 is a DOG! - 12/27/11 08:21 PM
You put a flat tapper cam and lifters into a roller cam block? Do you have lifters that allow for oil through pushrods? Otherwise those rockers on the magnum heads won't get oil. How's the pushrod length? I didn't think that was all interchangeable because of the differences in valvetrain.
Posted By: 69L78Nova
Re: Fresh Magnum 318 is a DOG! - 12/27/11 08:58 PM
Yes, the Summit lifters do have the oil hole in the plunger. The pushrods are the same 7.650" rods I had in my LA360 with Magnum heads. The rockers are getting oil
Posted By: 6PakBee
Re: Fresh Magnum 318 is a DOG! - 12/27/11 09:40 PM
Quote:
I didn't degree it, just installed it dot to dot. It's the cam, lifters, pushrods, and timing set out of my old 360. I figured I should add the engine is in my 78 Fury, with headers, 2.5" duals, A500 trans, and 3.55s. So am I correct in assuming the cam isn't too big, and it should be pulling more vacuum than it is?
So how did the 360 run? If you re-used the timing set, cam, etc., etc, out of the old motor AND it ran well, unless you screwed something up installing them, I can't believe the timing set would now be a problem.
Posted By: 69L78Nova
Re: Fresh Magnum 318 is a DOG! - 12/27/11 10:13 PM
The 360 ran great with that setup, considering it had stock dished pistons over .100" in the hole. Pulled this boat into the 14s, but developed a bottom end knock. I had the 318 laying around so I went through it and put it in. The 318 pistons are the stock flat tops, about .050" down. I'm thinking I put the timing set on a tooth off or something. It's gotta be. Everything else is the same, heads, intake, cam/lifters, pushrods, timing set, and carb. I can't think of what else it could be....
Posted By: mikemee1331
Re: Fresh Magnum 318 is a DOG! - 12/27/11 10:35 PM
i would replace that chain, i'm assuming it to is used.
Posted By: 69L78Nova
Re: Fresh Magnum 318 is a DOG! - 12/27/11 11:00 PM
Yes, it is used, but hardly has any miles on it. I'll pick up a new one when I pull the timing cover
Posted By: RapidRobert
Re: Fresh Magnum 318 is a DOG! - 12/27/11 11:42 PM
Out on a limb but I'm thinking with 16-17 in hg the cam timing is OK and the prob is in the timing: find/confirm exact TDC/set initial at 15 for a start/proper firing order/pickup gap/rotor phasing/good curve, I'm assuming there's no vac leak. yes a compression test will confirm that the long block itself is OK
Posted By: mikemee1331
Re: Fresh Magnum 318 is a DOG! - 12/27/11 11:55 PM
Quote:
Out on a limb but I'm thinking with 16-17 in hg the cam timing is OK and the prob is in the timing: find/confirm exact TDC/set initial at 15 for a start/proper firing order/pickup gap/rotor phasing/good curve, I'm assuming there's no vac leak. yes a compression test will confirm that the long block itself is OK
good point 'other RR', i didn't even notice the vac number! perhaps too the dizzy is off a tooth which he can check when he does a TDC check. 
Posted By: RapidRobert
Re: Fresh Magnum 318 is a DOG! - 12/27/11 11:58 PM
Quote:
good point 'other RR',
Didn't know if it was noticeable but I still have a hangover from that day 
Posted By: mikemee1331
Re: Fresh Magnum 318 is a DOG! - 12/28/11 12:16 AM
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good point 'other RR',
Didn't know if it was noticeable but I still have a hangover from that day
i was clueless. just thought your response funny. i know you've had a 
in the past. i have too and worse of all, he was right! i have alot of respect for his opinions (and humor) 
Posted By: dustdevil
Re: Fresh Magnum 318 is a DOG! - 12/28/11 12:49 AM
start with your basics. dist,firing order, dist advance stuck? build backwards. if your guts are talking to you about that timing chain placement go back to that point. make sure you take the time to degree it to confirm Good Luck BT
Posted By: RapidRobert
Re: Fresh Magnum 318 is a DOG! - 12/28/11 12:54 AM
The tipoff that hit me was that it has labored cranking at 2-3 initial
Posted By: terzmo
Re: Fresh Magnum 318 is a DOG! - 12/28/11 12:58 AM
1.6 rockers may be giving more lift/duration than needed for that cam.318's historically were dependable.."dog" engines. The best one I had was a 60 phoenix with a 4 bbl from the factory. It would chirp the tires in second but was no speed demon
Quote:
I didn't degree it, just installed it dot to dot. It's the cam, lifters, pushrods, and timing set out of my old 360. I figured I should add the engine is in my 78 Fury, with headers, 2.5" duals, A500 trans, and 3.55s. So am I correct in assuming the cam isn't too big, and it should be pulling more vacuum than it is?
confirm it did not wipe a cam lobe and a comp check
I am sure you kept the used lifters on the correct lobe when swaping in a used cam and valve trane.
but going from camed 360 to 318 with or with out mag heads will make it seem like a dog. 
do you run a stock high stall TC in it?
Posted By: 69L78Nova
Re: Fresh Magnum 318 is a DOG! - 12/28/11 01:09 AM
My gut tells me to pull the timing cover. Granted I don't expect the torque of the 360, and don't expect it to run door to door, its still only 22 cubes smaller than a 340, and a lot of people think they're the greatest thing in the world. It's a 318, but with decent heads (Magnum) and a cam....it should do decent
Posted By: RapidRobert
Re: Fresh Magnum 318 is a DOG! - 12/28/11 01:23 AM
might pull the plugs & do a quick compression test on 1 cyl & post what you get. That'll be less invasive & (may) tell you something in minutes
I agree,but if it were mine I would rule the wiped cam lobe out first before tearing the front off of it.
i have missed them by a tooth also,it happens.
but swaping a used cam over is a 50/50 shot if you ask me,the lifters are in new bores and may not spin on the lobe to make another break in run...you did break them in again right? did you lube the lobes up with break in lube?
i have done enuff of that on my junk and went roller for that reason in 07,300,000 miles on a set of rollers and the cam is in its 3rd engine.
I have had t-gears with dots off and have had cams ground off specs. it will act like you describe also,I just try the basics first.
run a comp check
use the piston stop and recheck damper/dist/itermed shaft/ plug wires ect... before tear it apart.
I know going from the 318 with 360 heads to the 318 with #302 heads i had to take alot of timeing out of it compaird to what it was at.
went form 10* BTDC to 2*-3* BTDC before I got it to level out and dial in.
result will vary from engine to engine.. maybe your just over advanced or to much timeing retard
have you set the timeing with a vac gauge hooked up to see what the engine likes? then check with a timeing light.
Posted By: patrick
Re: Fresh Magnum 318 is a DOG! - 12/28/11 01:21 PM
pull the dizzy out and move it over a tooth...might be you don't have the dizzy in the right spot and it looks like you're waaaay advanced. if that doesn't do it, then pull the timing cover and degree in the cam.
Posted By: MR_P_BODY
Re: Fresh Magnum 318 is a DOG! - 12/28/11 02:15 PM
Quote:
pull the dizzy out and move it over a tooth...might be you don't have the dizzy in the right spot and it looks like you're waaaay advanced. if that doesn't do it, then pull the timing cover and degree in the cam.
That wont matter where it pointed if its got the
proper amount of timing... I dont have my dist
pointed to where the factory shows them to be...
I have it pointed at the #1 plug
Posted By: 70AARcuda
Re: Fresh Magnum 318 is a DOG! - 12/28/11 08:12 PM
Quote:
pull the dizzy out and move it over a tooth...might be you don't have the dizzy in the right spot and it looks like you're waaaay advanced. if that doesn't do it, then pull the timing cover and degree in the cam.
does not matter on sb mopar...as long as the cap and rotor point to #1 at the same time and as long you have room to move the vacuum advance and it does not hit the intake manifold...
Posted By: patrick
Re: Fresh Magnum 318 is a DOG! - 12/28/11 11:34 PM
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pull the dizzy out and move it over a tooth...might be you don't have the dizzy in the right spot and it looks like you're waaaay advanced. if that doesn't do it, then pull the timing cover and degree in the cam.
does not matter on sb mopar...as long as the cap and rotor point to #1 at the same time and as long you have room to move the vacuum advance and it does not hit the intake manifold...
I know, but....if the dizzy is off a tooth or two, you might actually have the rotor under plug #1's terminal if you put them on the terminals they are supposed to be on what is shown on all the diagrams, and you're actually reading off what should be #2, so when you try advance it to where you want it to be it's way too advanced....been there, done that, I knew something was up when it ran best with 13 or so degrees of initial RETARD, not advance. unbolt the dizzy, jump it over one tooth (or move the plugs over 1 terminal) and all was hunky dorey....
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Fresh Magnum 318 is a DOG! - 12/29/11 01:28 AM
I always degree my cams even in stock rebuilds.
The 440 before the last one I built had a brand new Cloyes Tru-Roller timing chain and .528 MP mechanical.
When lined up "dot to dot" the cam was 8* retarded!
Mis-stamped gear? Cam off? Who knows but it would've run like crap if I'd installed it that way!
Posted By: stumpy
Re: Fresh Magnum 318 is a DOG! - 12/29/11 04:04 AM
You can't move a Mopar Distributor a tooth or two. It only goes in two ways. They have a slot not a gear.
Posted By: MR_P_BODY
Re: Fresh Magnum 318 is a DOG! - 12/29/11 04:47 AM
Quote:
You can't move a Mopar Distributor a tooth or two. It only goes in two ways. They have a slot not a gear.
Just lift the intermediate shaft and rotate it a tooth or two
Posted By: RapidRobert
Re: Fresh Magnum 318 is a DOG! - 12/29/11 04:48 AM
AZ69 post the outcome when you find it
Posted By: stumpy
Re: Fresh Magnum 318 is a DOG! - 12/29/11 04:48 AM
Yes but that isn't what was said or even implied.
Posted By: MR_P_BODY
Re: Fresh Magnum 318 is a DOG! - 12/29/11 04:51 AM
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Yes but that isn't what was said or even implied.
I dont know... I wasnt paying attention
Posted By: 70AARcuda
Re: Fresh Magnum 318 is a DOG! - 12/29/11 05:03 AM
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pull the dizzy out and move it over a tooth...might be you don't have the dizzy in the right spot and it looks like you're waaaay advanced. if that doesn't do it, then pull the timing cover and degree in the cam.
does not matter on sb mopar...as long as the cap and rotor point to #1 at the same time and as long you have room to move the vacuum advance and it does not hit the intake manifold...
I know, but....if the dizzy is off a tooth or two, you might actually have the rotor under plug #1's terminal if you put them on the terminals they are supposed to be on what is shown on all the diagrams, and you're actually reading off what should be #2, so when you try advance it to where you want it to be it's way too advanced....been there, done that, I knew something was up when it ran best with 13 or so degrees of initial RETARD, not advance. unbolt the dizzy, jump it over one tooth (or move the plugs over 1 terminal) and all was hunky dorey....
then you just move the whole distributor...LOL..it does not matter...but if you say so..go for it..LOL...
No 1 on the rotor could be pointing at the firewall..and if no 1 on the cap is pointing at the firewall and the wires are in the correct sequence it will run just fine..the immediate shaft has no clue what is going on with the distributor...
Posted By: Qbird
Re: Fresh Magnum 318 is a DOG! - 12/29/11 08:20 AM
My money is on multiple keyway on the crank sprocket. But, try this.
Pop the valvecovers...cycle the motor until #1 comes up on TDC compression stroke. Now keep cycling the crank another 360 degrees, and watch the rockers for that cylinder. "Dot to Dot" is TDC/Split overlap. In other words, when the piston is at TDC of the exhaust stroke, the exhaust valve is just touching down on its seat, and at the same time the intake is just rising off it's seat. If your cam timing is dead on, both the intake and exhaust valves will be open the exact same amount.
Posted By: 69L78Nova
Re: Fresh Magnum 318 is a DOG! - 12/29/11 12:37 PM
Quote:
AZ69 post the outcome when you find it
I will. Haven't got a chance to get out there yet. Been sick as hell. Going to try to force myself out there tonight. Wondering whats wrong is driving me nuts 
Posted By: patrick
Re: Fresh Magnum 318 is a DOG! - 12/29/11 01:39 PM
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You can't move a Mopar Distributor a tooth or two. It only goes in two ways. They have a slot not a gear.
Just lift the intermediate shaft and rotate it a tooth or two
yeah, that's what I meant...pop the oil pump drive over a tooth
Posted By: patrick
Re: Fresh Magnum 318 is a DOG! - 12/29/11 01:42 PM
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pull the dizzy out and move it over a tooth...might be you don't have the dizzy in the right spot and it looks like you're waaaay advanced. if that doesn't do it, then pull the timing cover and degree in the cam.
does not matter on sb mopar...as long as the cap and rotor point to #1 at the same time and as long you have room to move the vacuum advance and it does not hit the intake manifold...
I know, but....if the dizzy is off a tooth or two, you might actually have the rotor under plug #1's terminal if you put them on the terminals they are supposed to be on what is shown on all the diagrams, and you're actually reading off what should be #2, so when you try advance it to where you want it to be it's way too advanced....been there, done that, I knew something was up when it ran best with 13 or so degrees of initial RETARD, not advance. unbolt the dizzy, jump it over one tooth (or move the plugs over 1 terminal) and all was hunky dorey....
then you just move the whole distributor...LOL..it does not matter...but if you say so..go for it..LOL...
No 1 on the rotor could be pointing at the firewall..and if no 1 on the cap is pointing at the firewall and the wires are in the correct sequence it will run just fine..the immediate shaft has no clue what is going on with the distributor...
I know. I could have just popped my wires over one terminal on the cap to get everything lined up, but then I had issues with the vac. advance hitting the firewall when getting my timing dialed in, so I pulled the dizzy, and rotated the oil pump drive over 1 tooth.
I'd play with the timing, the OP says it drags the starter with more than 2 degrees of advance, I'd just try tune it by ear retarding the advance first and see where it works best. if pulling more timing out it runs better and better, it could just be the issue I suggested, and easier than pulling the t-chain cover and possibly the head to degree in the cam....
Posted By: RapidRobert
Re: Fresh Magnum 318 is a DOG! - 12/29/11 01:54 PM
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Going to try to force myself out there tonight. Wondering whats wrong is driving me nuts
us too
Posted By: fox
Re: Fresh Magnum 318 is a DOG! - 12/29/11 02:45 PM
Checking for a cam off a tooth is as easy as pulling a valve cover, rotating the crank until you getexhaust closing height equal to intake opening height and then looking at timing marks. If it isn't close-as in 4-5 degrees--take the timing cover off to degree it in.
I have a friend-chevy guy- who came to me about having trouble getting his 350 started.
I asked what was done to it.
He said big performance cam etc.
I went over there and he had it running but very rough and backfiring.
Cam off a tooth, timing too. how it even started was a laugh!
I fixed them and told him to reach in and crank it it will start. It did. the look on his face was a moment to remember!!!
He still askes how I did that.
Posted By: RapidRobert
Re: Fresh Magnum 318 is a DOG! - 12/29/11 02:48 PM
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I fixed them and told him to reach in and crank it it will start. It did. the look on his face was a moment to remember!!!
He still askes how I did that.
priceless , you might end up converting him
Posted By: 69L78Nova
Re: Fresh Magnum 318 is a DOG! - 12/30/11 03:40 AM
Well, I made it out there tonight. I degreed it with the used chain and with the new double roller. The used chain showed to be roughly .5* retarded. The new chain was 1* retarded, which I corrected with an offset keyway. I verified my numbers three times. I just don't get it. Unless its just because the engine only has about 1 hour of run time and 4 miles on it. Perhaps the rings need to seat. I didn't lean on it too hard, but part throttle was definitely off. I guess ill throw it back together and see how it does. This was mainly a mpg build, however I didn't want to use the stock roller cam, as I figured that would make it even worse in the get-up-and-go department
Posted By: MR_P_BODY
Re: Fresh Magnum 318 is a DOG! - 12/30/11 05:04 AM
Quote:
Well, I made it out there tonight. I degreed it with the used chain and with the new double roller. The used chain showed to be roughly .5* retarded. The new chain was 1* retarded, which I corrected with an offset keyway. I verified my numbers three times. I just don't get it. Unless its just because the engine only has about 1 hour of run time and 4 miles on it. Perhaps the rings need to seat. I didn't lean on it too hard, but part throttle was definitely off. I guess ill throw it back together and see how it does. This was mainly a mpg build, however I didn't want to use the stock roller cam, as I figured that would make it even worse in the get-up-and-go department
I'd advance it 4* to get better low end