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440 build-up - How does this combo sound? #993501
05/16/11 11:04 AM
05/16/11 11:04 AM
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Central NJ
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rjh233 Offline OP
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Hi everyone,

I'm looking to rebuild the 440 in my 65 Coronet for street/strip duty. I want to be able to run on pump gas to retain streetability. I live in NJ so I can get 92/93 octane. I am planning on a 4.15 stroker crank and rods from 440 source, with .030 over SRP forged pistons (p/n 231521 - 4032 alloy), Edelbrock Performer Alumimum heads (p/n 60929), Comp Cams Comp Kit CCA-K21-233-4 (290/298 .540/.558 - solid flat tappet) with Comp 1621 roller rockers (1.5 ratio), Edelbrock Performer 440 dual plane manifold (2191), Carter thermoquad, a 2800 stall converter, 3.91 gears (I also have a set of 3.55s and 3.23s to try out too if necessary) and 26 inch tall Mickey Thompson ET Drag radials. The cars has Mopar Performance Super Stock springs too.

With those edelbrock heads (84cc), a .039 gasket, knocking .010 off the deck of the block (guesstimate), on paper, the compression ratio works out to 10.75:1 and the pistons are .015 down in the hole.

Any ideas on what to expect horsepower-wise with this setup and what times I will run in the 1/4-mile? Are the Edelbrock Victor heads a good setup up, or are Victors too much for the street?

Suggestions welcome.

Thanks,

Rob

Re: 440 build-up - How does this combo sound? [Re: rjh233] #993502
05/16/11 11:20 AM
05/16/11 11:20 AM
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Brookeville, Md
Mr.Yuck Offline
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poo poo intake. Get the RPM. With the thermo-q you'll need an apdapter. If you have a good WORKING thermo use if if not I'd just drop a few $$ on a 850DP. Also you'll need more stall w/ that cam, probably 3200 or so. And it will be a dog w/ 3.23, very Avg w/ 3.55's 3.91's will work. Headers? (I hope) as far as tack times, after you tune it I'd guess low 12's high 11's. Those are short tires so that will help get that thing moving.


[IMG]http://i66.tinypic.com/pui5j.jpg[/IMG]
Coming soon!!!!
Re: 440 build-up - How does this combo sound? [Re: rjh233] #993503
05/16/11 09:18 PM
05/16/11 09:18 PM
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oklahoma
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forphorty Offline
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I agree with Mr Yuck here except for the "it will be a dog with 3.23s" part. With the parts listed and a better intake and converter your car should easily go high 11s no matter what gear is in it.My Satellite has gone lots of mid 12s (12.35 best) with an 8.5 440, barely pocket ported 906s with stock valves, Comp 292 hyd , old Torker, 750 DP. 10 inch converter, about 3800 flash. 3.23 gears and 28x9 et drags. Cheapo motor with not much power would only trap 106-107. Would pull a 1.69 60ft tho with those crappy gears and tall tires. Converter was doing all the work. I drive it on the highway quite a bit and 3.91s and a 26 inch tire would get old in a hurry for me.

Re: 440 build-up - How does this combo sound? [Re: forphorty] #993504
05/16/11 09:33 PM
05/16/11 09:33 PM
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Central NC
gch Offline
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Run the street dominator intake if you want to run the TQ.Maybe a better intake for your setup no matter the carb.
TQ will need major tuning for the stroker.Be prepared to dial it in.
Gears won't matter much.3.55's for mostly street and 3.91's for more track.
Converter won't matter much with the torque of the stroker.Do get a quality converter with minimal slippage.

Re: 440 build-up - How does this combo sound? [Re: gch] #993505
05/16/11 10:17 PM
05/16/11 10:17 PM
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okla.
sam64 Offline
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i vote for the performer rpm,unless you are planning spinning that thing 7,000.it picked my car up a bunch over a single plane,i shift at 6300.3400lbs 11.30s.leaving@2200rpm.

Re: 440 build-up - How does this combo sound? [Re: sam64] #993506
05/16/11 10:41 PM
05/16/11 10:41 PM
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NE Oklahoma
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Von Offline
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Quote:

i vote for the performer rpm,unless you are planning spinning that thing 7,000.it picked my car up a bunch over a single plane,i shift at 6300.3400lbs [Email]11.30s.leaving@2200rpm.[/Email]




I believe you went from a 4150 Team G to the RPM, correct? The 4150 Team Gs usually have major issues.....


72 RR, Pump gas 440, 452s, 3800 lbs, Corked, ET Radials,. 11.33@117.72. Same car, bone stock 346s, 9.5 comp, baby solid. 12.24@110.
Re: 440 build-up - How does this combo sound? [Re: Von] #993507
05/16/11 10:43 PM
05/16/11 10:43 PM
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Von Offline
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Id go with a single plane...with 500 cubes I see no reason for a dual plane. Unless it is the Indy intake with some port work.

SD or M1 should work well. More converter, maybe a Vic.

Id go more cam, converter and a Vic, but apparently (on this board anyway)Im pretty liberal....

Last edited by Von; 05/16/11 10:45 PM.

72 RR, Pump gas 440, 452s, 3800 lbs, Corked, ET Radials,. 11.33@117.72. Same car, bone stock 346s, 9.5 comp, baby solid. 12.24@110.
Re: 440 build-up - How does this combo sound? [Re: forphorty] #993508
05/16/11 10:50 PM
05/16/11 10:50 PM
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Von Offline
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Quote:

I agree with Mr Yuck here except for the "it will be a dog with 3.23s" part. With the parts listed and a better intake and converter your car should easily go high 11s no matter what gear is in it.




Well Tim, you beat me to the 3.23 comment.

I agree that the ops combo should go 11s...with ease.

I have 50 less cubes, more cam, more weight, less heads, bigger headers, etc and it ran fine on the street with 3.23s......No where near a "dog".

Ya, at the track the 3.23s would cost me..But the butt dyno doesnt say more than 2 tenths..FWIW.

Last edited by Von; 05/16/11 10:52 PM.

72 RR, Pump gas 440, 452s, 3800 lbs, Corked, ET Radials,. 11.33@117.72. Same car, bone stock 346s, 9.5 comp, baby solid. 12.24@110.
Re: 440 build-up - How does this combo sound? [Re: Von] #993509
05/16/11 10:52 PM
05/16/11 10:52 PM
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Lincoln Nebraska
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RapidRobert Offline
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Quote:

I have 50 less cubes, more cam, more weight, less heads, bigger headers, etc and it ran fine on the street with 3.23s......No where near a "dog".


Sounds like the converter is key. That's convincing me to spend the money for a good one for my specs


live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
Re: 440 build-up - How does this combo sound? [Re: RapidRobert] #993510
05/16/11 10:58 PM
05/16/11 10:58 PM
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Von Offline
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[quote Sounds like the converter is key. That's convincing me to spend the money for a good one for my specs




Right you are!!!

But, in Tims case (forphorty above) I believe his ETS were with.... a GER converter.

Im sure he will respond, but I believe he has a dyamic now and the car doesnt run any quicker. For sure not the general rule of thumb...But the GER worked.

Last edited by Von; 05/16/11 10:59 PM.

72 RR, Pump gas 440, 452s, 3800 lbs, Corked, ET Radials,. 11.33@117.72. Same car, bone stock 346s, 9.5 comp, baby solid. 12.24@110.
Re: 440 build-up - How does this combo sound? [Re: Von] #993511
05/16/11 11:03 PM
05/16/11 11:03 PM
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RapidRobert Offline
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Actually I was asking as I am converter ignorant but you (& others) are convincing me that it is a critical piece


live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
Re: 440 build-up - How does this combo sound? [Re: RapidRobert] #993512
05/16/11 11:08 PM
05/16/11 11:08 PM
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Von Offline
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Quote:

Actually I was asking as I am converter ignorant but you (& others) are convincing me that it is a critical piece




The best converter Ive had/have is a TA 8 inch. Flashes 5k and drives VERY nice on the street. The converter started life as a Munsinger and TA went through it last. So, not sure if all TA "tight" 8s are as good.

For the money, PTC gets my vote. 4 bills and change you get a really good converter.


72 RR, Pump gas 440, 452s, 3800 lbs, Corked, ET Radials,. 11.33@117.72. Same car, bone stock 346s, 9.5 comp, baby solid. 12.24@110.
Re: 440 build-up - How does this combo sound? [Re: RapidRobert] #993513
05/16/11 11:12 PM
05/16/11 11:12 PM
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okla.
sam64 Offline
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yes the converter is very important,but you have to make all the other choices of your engine before you call anyone to spec a converter to your combo.

Re: 440 build-up - How does this combo sound? [Re: Von] #993514
05/16/11 11:20 PM
05/16/11 11:20 PM
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sam64 Offline
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Quote:

Id go with a single plane...with 500 cubes I see no reason for a dual plane. Unless it is the Indy intake with some port work.

SD or M1 should work well. More converter, maybe a Vic.

Id go more cam, converter and a Vic, but apparently (on this board anyway)Im pretty liberal....


m1 is no better than a team g i can guarantee that,now back to rpms its going to be ran at most of the time,that will make the difference.if i'm gona spend someone elses money its gonna have somethin pushin air.

Re: 440 build-up - How does this combo sound? [Re: sam64] #993515
05/17/11 12:20 AM
05/17/11 12:20 AM
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Lincoln Nebraska
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RapidRobert Offline
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Quote:

yes the converter is very important,but you have to make all the other choices of your engine before you call anyone to spec a converter to your combo.


Will do


live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
Re: 440 build-up - How does this combo sound? [Re: Von] #993516
05/17/11 12:20 AM
05/17/11 12:20 AM
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oklahoma
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forphorty Offline
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Quote:

[quote Sounds like the converter is key. That's convincing me to spend the money for a good one for my specs




Right you are!!!

But, in Tims case (forphorty above) I believe his ETS were with.... a GER converter.

Im sure he will respond, but I believe he has a dyamic now and the car doesnt run any quicker. For sure not the general rule of thumb...But the GER worked.


Yep, GER. Haven't run it with the Dynamic. Doesn't feel any faster with it, but also doesn't crack flex plates like the GER did on a regular basis. Poor car is falling apart. I need to plug the leaks and rebuild the front suspension before it runs down the track again. And the front floor pans are beginning to look like Fred Flintstones.

Re: 440 build-up - How does this combo sound? [Re: rjh233] #993517
05/17/11 12:30 AM
05/17/11 12:30 AM
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Redding,CA USA
440charger500 Offline
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Everything sounds good to me but the converter and 26" M/T slicks. I've been there done that and I can tell you a 27" or 28" tire will hook better and go with the 3.91 gears. I bought a dynamics 10" 3500 converter and I picked up three tenths from another brand 2800 stall converter. If it was me I would run the 3.91 with 28" tire and a 3000+ converter. You will be mid 12'S or better and will drive on the street no prob.

Re: 440 build-up - How does this combo sound? [Re: sam64] #993518
05/17/11 12:44 AM
05/17/11 12:44 AM
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Von Offline
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[quote m1 is no better than a team g i can guarantee that, [/quote


4500 flange Team G probably is better.. 4150 flange most likely not...

I discussed this very subject with Dwayne a couple of weeks ago. I saw how how much improvment you got going to a RPM and it had me thinking. But, after talking with Dwayne I have a better understanding of why you might have picked up so much with the intake swap...


72 RR, Pump gas 440, 452s, 3800 lbs, Corked, ET Radials,. 11.33@117.72. Same car, bone stock 346s, 9.5 comp, baby solid. 12.24@110.
Re: 440 build-up - How does this combo sound? [Re: gch] #993519
05/17/11 12:56 AM
05/17/11 12:56 AM
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HYPER8oSoNic Offline
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Quote:

Run the street dominator intake if you want to run the TQ.Maybe a better intake for your setup no matter the carb.
TQ will need major tuning for the stroker.Be prepared to dial it in.
Gears won't matter much.3.55's for mostly street and 3.91's for more track.
Converter won't matter much with the torque of the stroker.Do get a quality converter with minimal slippage.




with both forforty and gch, carb/intake and converter. The SD would be the WISER choice with the TQ, 850 DP would like the Air Gap. with the "long" 3.23's, that 8" converter works the tranny. Personally, I'd cut back an inch (that's my own op).


Last edited by HYPER8oSoNic; 05/17/11 10:13 PM.

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Re: 440 build-up - How does this combo sound? [Re: forphorty] #993520
05/17/11 01:11 AM
05/17/11 01:11 AM
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Balt. Md
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383man Offline
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Not a bad combo at all but I would make a few changes. More converter , a better intake and I myself would use a Holley DP carb for your setup. Its very close to my 440 other then yours will be stroked. I have the MP .557 cam that looks close to your cam by the specs you have. I run the Holley SD intake which should work nice on your combo. I have seen some strokers running the Performer RPM intake and they seem to work good on mild strokers. The RPM surprised me as how good it still pulls up at 6500 as my son uses one on his 400 in his Dart. Its a nice street/strip intake also. I use a Dynamic 9.5 converter that flashes about 4200 but drives like a normal converter. I really like that converter in my street/strip cars. I would say with a good intake (SD or RPM) and a nice converter with about 3800 flash and an 850 DP at least will really bring it alive. 11's should be easy for you then.
I am pulling my 440 out this week to put my new 493 stroker in my 63 and my old 440 will be going in my buddies black 65 Coronet 500. He does not want to put a roll bar in it so he does not want to go faster then 11.50's. My car went 11.49 with it so his 65 should run mid 11's and your's should run easy 11's and even low 11's if you really get aggressive with your combo. Got any pics of your 65 ? Good luck , Ron

Last edited by 383man; 05/17/11 01:51 PM.
Re: 440 build-up - How does this combo sound? [Re: HYPER8oSoNic] #993521
05/17/11 01:28 AM
05/17/11 01:28 AM
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Von Offline
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[quote whith the "long" 3.23's, that 8" converter works the tranny.




I cant agree with you on that. A quality 8 inch "tight" converter will "work" the tranny less than a "loose" 10 inch.

I havent had any issues with the 8.....tranny fluid never looks or smells burnt... I do have a good cooler though.

BTW, I wasnt suggesting a 8 for the OP(not that it would be bad idea), only giving my experience to RR.

To the OP, sorry for the hijack!!!


72 RR, Pump gas 440, 452s, 3800 lbs, Corked, ET Radials,. 11.33@117.72. Same car, bone stock 346s, 9.5 comp, baby solid. 12.24@110.
Re: 440 build-up - How does this combo sound? [Re: rjh233] #993522
05/17/11 02:49 AM
05/17/11 02:49 AM
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451Mopar Offline
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Quote:

"I am planning on a 4.15 stroker crank and rods from 440 source, with .030 over SRP forged pistons (p/n 231521 - 4032 alloy)"




Question #1 - any reason for those pistons?
Q #2 - Why not get the full stroker kit with pistons from 440 source?
Q #3 - Why 4.15" stroke? You could go 4.25" stroke with 7.1" rods and still have internal oiling? or 4.375" stroke with external oiling, and the kits are all the same cost?

Quote:

Head and related questions:
"Edelbrock Performer Alumimum heads (p/n 60929)"
"Are the Edelbrock Victor heads a good setup up, or are Victors too much for the street?"




The Answer depends on how much power you want to make and how much $$$$ you want to spend.
The Performer head are more of a replacement performance head that will work with stock style rocker arms, and intake manifolds. They cam make 500+ HP out of the box, and can be ported for even more power.
The Victor heads are good if you want to make over 600 HP, but require special offset rocker arms adding to the cost, and would be a better choice if running a solid roller cam and 1,000+ cfm induction. The standard port size Victor uses a 0.600" offset intake rocker and I think the most afforadable set is from Hughes Engines @ $600/set and they are on backorder.
The Victor Max Wedge port heads use a 0.725" or more offset intake rocker arm set, and T&D makes them for about $1,000, and pushrod clearance is very tight. I think the Indy 0.800" offset rockers from Harlan Sharpe would also work, but they are also $1,000+.
With the MaxWedge size heads you need a matching size intake manifold too.

Quote:

"Comp Cams Comp Kit CCA-K21-233-4 (290/298 .540/.558 - solid flat tappet)"




The cam is 252/260 @ 0.050".
With a 500" stroker it will be decent street/strip profile. If car is mostly street a smaller cam may be easier to live with (but not as much fun.) With the Flat tappets you will have to run race motor oil with good high pressure additives to keep from wiping out the lobes.
I would use the three bolt timing setup, over the single bolt.

Quote:

" with Comp 1621 roller rockers (1.5 ratio)"




You could use 1.6:1 ratio for more valve lift?

Quote:

"Edelbrock Performer 440 dual plane manifold"




Forget that intake, With your cam/compression the RPM dual plane would be a minimum, and you could use a single plane with no problem.

Quote:

"Carter thermoquad"




Maybe if you can get it tuned to the combination and supplied with a good fuel system? Holley 950HP or larger.

Quote:

"a 2800 stall converter, 3.91 gears (I also have a set of 3.55s and 3.23s to try out too if necessary) and 26 inch tall Mickey Thompson ET Drag radials. The cars has Mopar Performance Super Stock springs too."




You may be OK here? I would use a 3,500 stall converter.

Quote:

"With those edelbrock heads (84cc), a .039 gasket, knocking .010 off the deck of the block (guesstimate), on paper, the compression ratio works out to 10.75:1 and the pistons are .015 down in the hole."




0.054" quench is not that good? Look at the 440 source kits, with D-Dished pistons. Most have near zero deck (good quench) and the dish lowers compression for easy running on pump gas.

Quote:

"Any ideas on what to expect horsepower-wise with this setup and what times I will run in the 1/4-mile?"




I'll guess 550 HP with the RPM heads. Ported heads could up that to about 580?
1/4 mile times depend on vehicle weight, gear, converter, traction, etc, but at least 11's or better?

Re: 440 build-up - How does this combo sound? [Re: 451Mopar] #993523
05/17/11 11:20 AM
05/17/11 11:20 AM
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Central NJ
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rjh233 Offline OP
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Quote:

"Question #1 - any reason for those pistons?
Q #2 - Why not get the full stroker kit with pistons from 440 source?
Q #3 - Why 4.15" stroke? You could go 4.25" stroke with 7.1" rods and still have internal oiling? or 4.375" stroke with external oiling, and the kits are all the same cost?"




1 - The 440 Source kit pistons are 2618 aluminum. The local engine builder guy said that 4032 would be better - less slap on start-up and would be better for longevity than the 2618's because 4032 expands less so the piston clearances can be a bit tighter - and my combo won't be taxing the 4032 pistons anyway. I won't be running nitrous or supercharging or anything.

2&3 - I may go the 4.25 way. You're right, the cost is the same - its free cubic inches.

However:

1 Are the pistons that work with the 4.25/7.1 combo going to present any issues with a car that won't be trailered? They've got a 1.485 compression distance and I'm not sure how long the skirts are. Does anyone else have a similar setup? Is this pushing it too much on the side loads on the cylinders? Is this even an issue?

2 The chart on 440Source's website says that the 4.25 crank, 7.1 rods, .30 over and -4cc flat top pistons works out to 11.2:1 compression. Is this to high for the aluminum heads on pump gas? I'd like to keep the compression as high as possible. Flat top pistons are supposed to have better combustion and flow charastics compared to dome/dished pistons - less obstacles for the flame front to overcome and the intake/exhaust gases to flow around - at least thats what all the books I've read say...


Quote:

Head and related questions:
"The Answer depends on how much power you want to make and how much $$$$ you want to spend.
The Performer head are more of a replacement performance head that will work with stock style rocker arms, and intake manifolds. They cam make 500+ HP out of the box, and can be ported for even more power.
The Victor heads are good if you want to make over 600 HP, but require special offset rocker arms adding to the cost, and would be a better choice if running a solid roller cam and 1,000+ cfm induction. The standard port size Victor uses a 0.600" offset intake rocker and I think the most afforadable set is from Hughes Engines @ $600/set and they are on backorder.
The Victor Max Wedge port heads use a 0.725" or more offset intake rocker arm set, and T&D makes them for about $1,000, and pushrod clearance is very tight. I think the Indy 0.800" offset rockers from Harlan Sharpe would also work, but they are also $1,000+.
With the MaxWedge size heads you need a matching size intake manifold too."




I think I am going to go with the Edelbrock Performer heads - just bolt them on and go, or maybe a little bowl clean-up and backcut the valves. I'm not building a pro stock engine, lol and don't want to have to screw around with the offset rockers and the greater overall height of the Victors (stock hood) and anything else that I may not think of - $$$ it gets expensive fast too. My budget for this engine build is around $6k.

Quote:

"The cam is 252/260 @ 0.050".
With a 500" stroker it will be decent street/strip profile. If car is mostly street a smaller cam may be easier to live with (but not as much fun.) With the Flat tappets you will have to run race motor oil with good high pressure additives to keep from wiping out the lobes.
I would use the three bolt timing setup, over the single bolt. "




What oil/additives do you suggest?

Thanks to everyone for the info on the manifold. I didn't know it was so crappy, lol. I'll have to look into a spread bore single plane or maybe a Holley carb and the RPM manifold.

Re: 440 build-up - How does this combo sound? [Re: Von] #993524
05/17/11 10:11 PM
05/17/11 10:11 PM
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HYPER8oSoNic Offline
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Quote:

[quote whith the "long" 3.23's, that 8" converter works the tranny.




I cant agree with you on that. A quality 8 inch "tight" converter will "work" the tranny less than a "loose" 10 inch.

I havent had any issues with the 8.....tranny fluid never looks or smells burnt... I do have a good cooler though.

BTW, I wasnt suggesting a 8 for the OP(not that it would be bad idea), only giving my experience to RR.

To the OP, sorry for the hijack!!!





Don't mean to "hijack" either, just doing a little clarity. The reason I said the 8" would "work" the tranny, was NOT of stress, but of performance. As in snappy, for THAT ratio. And I know that you were not recommending it for the op, and your experience and opinion, both, HAVE merit! That's all. No, harm done!!



"Stupidity is Ignorance on Steroids"
"Yeah, it's hopped to over 160" (quote by Kowalski in the movie Vanishing Point 1970 - Cupid Productions)
Re: 440 build-up - How does this combo sound? [Re: HYPER8oSoNic] #993525
05/17/11 10:38 PM
05/17/11 10:38 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,664
IN
A
ahy Offline
master
ahy  Offline
master
A

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,664
IN
Comment on compression ratio and piston to deck height. With aluminum heads, forged pistons and a not too wild performance cam I'd prefer to see compression in the 10.2 to 10.5 range for street duty. It would be even better with quench (zero deck piston, .038-.040" gasket). Getting CR in this range with zero deck will require a "D dish" piston. Sustained running on the street puts a lot more heat in the engine than a run down the strip and detonation is no fun.

I don't think the 512 piston/rod setup would be a durability problem, however, the cubes would out run the heads. I believe the engine work/feel better with the 4.15 stroke and Ed heads. Either one should work fine with 3.23 and a 26" tire.

Re: 440 build-up - How does this combo sound? [Re: ahy] #993526
05/18/11 02:38 PM
05/18/11 02:38 PM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 236
Southern CA
Colin Frolick Offline
enthusiast
Colin Frolick  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: May 2006
Posts: 236
Southern CA
i have a motor alot like that... 4.15 crank, about 10:1, 0.039 quench, performer heads, 231/237 duration ~0.560" lift cam w/1.6 rockers, the lowly "performer" intake with a TQ, 1 7/8" headers, stock converter and 3.23s. it idles like stock and revs to 6500, but runs out of power around 5000. it is fun as hell to drive! i buy 89 octane and it won't ping, i attribute that to the tight quench. it doesn't overheat in the desert and gets about 10mpg. i last installed a 2.76 rear for freeway running, which is nice but killed the low end. next is a 518 trans and 3.73s, and definitely a bigger intake mainifold, and maybe a 250 shot of n2o

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