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Re: 440 build-up - How does this combo sound? [Re: HYPER8oSoNic] #993521
05/17/11 01:28 AM
05/17/11 01:28 AM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,698
NE Oklahoma
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Von Offline
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Von  Offline
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NE Oklahoma
[quote whith the "long" 3.23's, that 8" converter works the tranny.




I cant agree with you on that. A quality 8 inch "tight" converter will "work" the tranny less than a "loose" 10 inch.

I havent had any issues with the 8.....tranny fluid never looks or smells burnt... I do have a good cooler though.

BTW, I wasnt suggesting a 8 for the OP(not that it would be bad idea), only giving my experience to RR.

To the OP, sorry for the hijack!!!


72 RR, Pump gas 440, 452s, 3800 lbs, Corked, ET Radials,. 11.33@117.72. Same car, bone stock 346s, 9.5 comp, baby solid. 12.24@110.
Re: 440 build-up - How does this combo sound? [Re: rjh233] #993522
05/17/11 02:49 AM
05/17/11 02:49 AM
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5,399
Aurora, Colorado
451Mopar Offline
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451Mopar  Offline
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Posts: 5,399
Aurora, Colorado
Quote:

"I am planning on a 4.15 stroker crank and rods from 440 source, with .030 over SRP forged pistons (p/n 231521 - 4032 alloy)"




Question #1 - any reason for those pistons?
Q #2 - Why not get the full stroker kit with pistons from 440 source?
Q #3 - Why 4.15" stroke? You could go 4.25" stroke with 7.1" rods and still have internal oiling? or 4.375" stroke with external oiling, and the kits are all the same cost?

Quote:

Head and related questions:
"Edelbrock Performer Alumimum heads (p/n 60929)"
"Are the Edelbrock Victor heads a good setup up, or are Victors too much for the street?"




The Answer depends on how much power you want to make and how much $$$$ you want to spend.
The Performer head are more of a replacement performance head that will work with stock style rocker arms, and intake manifolds. They cam make 500+ HP out of the box, and can be ported for even more power.
The Victor heads are good if you want to make over 600 HP, but require special offset rocker arms adding to the cost, and would be a better choice if running a solid roller cam and 1,000+ cfm induction. The standard port size Victor uses a 0.600" offset intake rocker and I think the most afforadable set is from Hughes Engines @ $600/set and they are on backorder.
The Victor Max Wedge port heads use a 0.725" or more offset intake rocker arm set, and T&D makes them for about $1,000, and pushrod clearance is very tight. I think the Indy 0.800" offset rockers from Harlan Sharpe would also work, but they are also $1,000+.
With the MaxWedge size heads you need a matching size intake manifold too.

Quote:

"Comp Cams Comp Kit CCA-K21-233-4 (290/298 .540/.558 - solid flat tappet)"




The cam is 252/260 @ 0.050".
With a 500" stroker it will be decent street/strip profile. If car is mostly street a smaller cam may be easier to live with (but not as much fun.) With the Flat tappets you will have to run race motor oil with good high pressure additives to keep from wiping out the lobes.
I would use the three bolt timing setup, over the single bolt.

Quote:

" with Comp 1621 roller rockers (1.5 ratio)"




You could use 1.6:1 ratio for more valve lift?

Quote:

"Edelbrock Performer 440 dual plane manifold"




Forget that intake, With your cam/compression the RPM dual plane would be a minimum, and you could use a single plane with no problem.

Quote:

"Carter thermoquad"




Maybe if you can get it tuned to the combination and supplied with a good fuel system? Holley 950HP or larger.

Quote:

"a 2800 stall converter, 3.91 gears (I also have a set of 3.55s and 3.23s to try out too if necessary) and 26 inch tall Mickey Thompson ET Drag radials. The cars has Mopar Performance Super Stock springs too."




You may be OK here? I would use a 3,500 stall converter.

Quote:

"With those edelbrock heads (84cc), a .039 gasket, knocking .010 off the deck of the block (guesstimate), on paper, the compression ratio works out to 10.75:1 and the pistons are .015 down in the hole."




0.054" quench is not that good? Look at the 440 source kits, with D-Dished pistons. Most have near zero deck (good quench) and the dish lowers compression for easy running on pump gas.

Quote:

"Any ideas on what to expect horsepower-wise with this setup and what times I will run in the 1/4-mile?"




I'll guess 550 HP with the RPM heads. Ported heads could up that to about 580?
1/4 mile times depend on vehicle weight, gear, converter, traction, etc, but at least 11's or better?

Re: 440 build-up - How does this combo sound? [Re: 451Mopar] #993523
05/17/11 11:20 AM
05/17/11 11:20 AM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 3
Central NJ
R
rjh233 Offline OP
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rjh233  Offline OP
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 3
Central NJ
Quote:

"Question #1 - any reason for those pistons?
Q #2 - Why not get the full stroker kit with pistons from 440 source?
Q #3 - Why 4.15" stroke? You could go 4.25" stroke with 7.1" rods and still have internal oiling? or 4.375" stroke with external oiling, and the kits are all the same cost?"




1 - The 440 Source kit pistons are 2618 aluminum. The local engine builder guy said that 4032 would be better - less slap on start-up and would be better for longevity than the 2618's because 4032 expands less so the piston clearances can be a bit tighter - and my combo won't be taxing the 4032 pistons anyway. I won't be running nitrous or supercharging or anything.

2&3 - I may go the 4.25 way. You're right, the cost is the same - its free cubic inches.

However:

1 Are the pistons that work with the 4.25/7.1 combo going to present any issues with a car that won't be trailered? They've got a 1.485 compression distance and I'm not sure how long the skirts are. Does anyone else have a similar setup? Is this pushing it too much on the side loads on the cylinders? Is this even an issue?

2 The chart on 440Source's website says that the 4.25 crank, 7.1 rods, .30 over and -4cc flat top pistons works out to 11.2:1 compression. Is this to high for the aluminum heads on pump gas? I'd like to keep the compression as high as possible. Flat top pistons are supposed to have better combustion and flow charastics compared to dome/dished pistons - less obstacles for the flame front to overcome and the intake/exhaust gases to flow around - at least thats what all the books I've read say...


Quote:

Head and related questions:
"The Answer depends on how much power you want to make and how much $$$$ you want to spend.
The Performer head are more of a replacement performance head that will work with stock style rocker arms, and intake manifolds. They cam make 500+ HP out of the box, and can be ported for even more power.
The Victor heads are good if you want to make over 600 HP, but require special offset rocker arms adding to the cost, and would be a better choice if running a solid roller cam and 1,000+ cfm induction. The standard port size Victor uses a 0.600" offset intake rocker and I think the most afforadable set is from Hughes Engines @ $600/set and they are on backorder.
The Victor Max Wedge port heads use a 0.725" or more offset intake rocker arm set, and T&D makes them for about $1,000, and pushrod clearance is very tight. I think the Indy 0.800" offset rockers from Harlan Sharpe would also work, but they are also $1,000+.
With the MaxWedge size heads you need a matching size intake manifold too."




I think I am going to go with the Edelbrock Performer heads - just bolt them on and go, or maybe a little bowl clean-up and backcut the valves. I'm not building a pro stock engine, lol and don't want to have to screw around with the offset rockers and the greater overall height of the Victors (stock hood) and anything else that I may not think of - $$$ it gets expensive fast too. My budget for this engine build is around $6k.

Quote:

"The cam is 252/260 @ 0.050".
With a 500" stroker it will be decent street/strip profile. If car is mostly street a smaller cam may be easier to live with (but not as much fun.) With the Flat tappets you will have to run race motor oil with good high pressure additives to keep from wiping out the lobes.
I would use the three bolt timing setup, over the single bolt. "




What oil/additives do you suggest?

Thanks to everyone for the info on the manifold. I didn't know it was so crappy, lol. I'll have to look into a spread bore single plane or maybe a Holley carb and the RPM manifold.

Re: 440 build-up - How does this combo sound? [Re: Von] #993524
05/17/11 10:11 PM
05/17/11 10:11 PM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,275
Desert Tracker
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HYPER8oSoNic Offline
top fuel
HYPER8oSoNic  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,275
Desert Tracker
Quote:

[quote whith the "long" 3.23's, that 8" converter works the tranny.




I cant agree with you on that. A quality 8 inch "tight" converter will "work" the tranny less than a "loose" 10 inch.

I havent had any issues with the 8.....tranny fluid never looks or smells burnt... I do have a good cooler though.

BTW, I wasnt suggesting a 8 for the OP(not that it would be bad idea), only giving my experience to RR.

To the OP, sorry for the hijack!!!





Don't mean to "hijack" either, just doing a little clarity. The reason I said the 8" would "work" the tranny, was NOT of stress, but of performance. As in snappy, for THAT ratio. And I know that you were not recommending it for the op, and your experience and opinion, both, HAVE merit! That's all. No, harm done!!



"Stupidity is Ignorance on Steroids"
"Yeah, it's hopped to over 160" (quote by Kowalski in the movie Vanishing Point 1970 - Cupid Productions)
Re: 440 build-up - How does this combo sound? [Re: HYPER8oSoNic] #993525
05/17/11 10:38 PM
05/17/11 10:38 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,664
IN
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ahy Offline
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ahy  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,664
IN
Comment on compression ratio and piston to deck height. With aluminum heads, forged pistons and a not too wild performance cam I'd prefer to see compression in the 10.2 to 10.5 range for street duty. It would be even better with quench (zero deck piston, .038-.040" gasket). Getting CR in this range with zero deck will require a "D dish" piston. Sustained running on the street puts a lot more heat in the engine than a run down the strip and detonation is no fun.

I don't think the 512 piston/rod setup would be a durability problem, however, the cubes would out run the heads. I believe the engine work/feel better with the 4.15 stroke and Ed heads. Either one should work fine with 3.23 and a 26" tire.

Re: 440 build-up - How does this combo sound? [Re: ahy] #993526
05/18/11 02:38 PM
05/18/11 02:38 PM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 236
Southern CA
Colin Frolick Offline
enthusiast
Colin Frolick  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: May 2006
Posts: 236
Southern CA
i have a motor alot like that... 4.15 crank, about 10:1, 0.039 quench, performer heads, 231/237 duration ~0.560" lift cam w/1.6 rockers, the lowly "performer" intake with a TQ, 1 7/8" headers, stock converter and 3.23s. it idles like stock and revs to 6500, but runs out of power around 5000. it is fun as hell to drive! i buy 89 octane and it won't ping, i attribute that to the tight quench. it doesn't overheat in the desert and gets about 10mpg. i last installed a 2.76 rear for freeway running, which is nice but killed the low end. next is a 518 trans and 3.73s, and definitely a bigger intake mainifold, and maybe a 250 shot of n2o

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