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Re: Is a quality 10w30 adequate for a mild 440?
[Re: BradH]
#98166
08/01/08 01:18 PM
08/01/08 01:18 PM
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Re: Is a quality 10w30 adequate for a mild 440?
#98167
08/01/08 04:35 PM
08/01/08 04:35 PM
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Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 6,167
Maryland
GO_Fish
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It should be fine, that's what the owners manual probably spec'd when it was new anyways.
Thicker oil than you need will cause higher oil pressure (which can make leaks), higher heat, and reduced horsepower because of the extra work involved pushing the thick oil through.
I'm running 10w30 Pennzoil and a bottle of ZDDPlus additive on my flat tappet 360.
Scott B.
"I'm a self-made man... I started with nothing, and I still have most of it!"
68 360 rusty B'cuda 'vert (GO Fish)13.59@ 98.72 mph
69 340 GTS stock 14.18@ 95.60 mph
01 5.9L Ram 1500 Quad Cab 4x4
01 3.5L 300M 16.23@ 86.97 mph
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Re: Is a quality 10w30 adequate for a mild 440?
[Re: GO_Fish]
#98168
08/01/08 04:48 PM
08/01/08 04:48 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 8,670
Andrewh
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I read an article about oil weights. It is interesting in that those numbers mean jack at operating temp. Strictly speaking those are for when the engine cool starts. Here is the article http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=136052
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Re: Is a quality 10w30 adequate for a mild 440?
[Re: Andrewh]
#98169
08/01/08 06:07 PM
08/01/08 06:07 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,329
NC
DCM71cuda
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NC
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Quote:
I read an article about oil weights.
It is interesting in that those numbers mean jack at operating temp.
Strictly speaking those are for when the engine cool starts.
Here is the article
http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=136052
That is a very long article, most of which can be ignored if you understand the SAE designations for oil weight and viscosity designations.
There are also some people that have replaced camshafts that would very much disagree with:
Quote:
Please note that it makes no difference what oil you are using. The 0W-20 Mobil 1 that is SL rated meets the same criteria as that SL rated 10W-30 synthetic or mineral based Pennzoil. That SJ or in particular that SH oil some people are looking for (from their older automotive owners manual) is no where near as good as any SL oil of today. Always use the most currently available, highest rated motor oil, even in the oldest, most worn engine. You may require a thicker grade but just make sure it is SL rated.
I use 10w 40 in my street driven 440. Something to think about is that oils require more non-lubricating additives to achieve wide cold/hot spreads.
In other words, there are lots more additives to produce a 5w-40 oil vs a 5w-20.
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Re: Is a quality 10w30 adequate for a mild 440?
[Re: ahy]
#98171
08/01/08 09:28 PM
08/01/08 09:28 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,270
Missouri
MY340
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May also depend on how tight your motor is to what viscosity oil would be best. Personally I don't like most 10W-30's in a high performance motor during extreme summer temps and long trips.  I'd use 10w-40 in the summer and 10w-30 in the winter or possibly 5W-30 if you drove your car alot below 32 degrees. 5W-30 is easier on cold startups in winter.
1970 FE5 Duster 360/904/3.91's SOLD
1973 TB3 SpaceDuster 340/4spd/4.10's SOLD
Moparless for now but when the opportunity is right I'll have another one.
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Re: Is a quality 10w30 adequate for a mild 440?
[Re: Pentastar440]
#98174
08/02/08 12:20 AM
08/02/08 12:20 AM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 21,318
Manitoba, Canada
DaytonaTurbo
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Manitoba, Canada
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I've always just ran 10w-30 and my 440's been fine. Then again I'm running a stock engine. Add in a more aggressive camshaft lobe design and higher spring pressures and all the sudden lubrication is more critical.
As far as thickness goes, 10w-30 is fine so long as you are able to maintain good oil pressure with it. If oil pressure is too low with the 10-30, step up a grade.
Now for lubricant contents, zinc is more crucial to have in a more aggressive than stock setup as well. I hear people adding in a bottle of the red STP, GM's EOS or whatever they call their newest forumula of it, and other products that are heavy in ZDDP to provide proper camshaft protection with newer oils.
The diesel oils are supposed to have more zinc in them, but I have a hard time finding them in anything thinner than 15w-40, and that's too thick for me.
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Re: Is a quality 10w30 adequate for a mild 440?
[Re: R70RUNNER]
#98176
08/02/08 01:25 AM
08/02/08 01:25 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 150
Dorchester Ontario Canada
383SE
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member
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Dorchester Ontario Canada
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I run Brad Penn 10w30 Racing Oil in my 383,it has ZDDP in it.So far so good,lots of oil pressure when hot.
68 Dart GT convert
2013 Ram 4x4
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Re: Is a quality 10w30 adequate for a mild 440?
[Re: BradH]
#98177
08/02/08 09:35 AM
08/02/08 09:35 AM
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,285
Pacific NW USA
CompSyn
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Quote:
I'm now using 20w50 Brad Penn Racing in my Challenger, but haven't decided what to switch to in my Road Runner. It's a mild solid-lifter cam combination that never sees over about 5500 RPM and leads a pretty easy life when driven. Is a quality 10w30 (such as Brad Penn Racing) a good viscosity for this application?
Have you considered AMSOIL AMO 10W-40? It’s a great choice for your flat-tappet camshaft application. It’s formulated with ample amounts of Zinc and Phosphorous and it’s made with 100% synthetic group IV base stocks; Polyalphaolefins(PAO). The PAO base stocks are manmade and are free from the naturally occurring paraffin waxes found in Group II oils which utilize paraffinic crude oil base stocks. Many circles consider this a plus. If you’re going to be driving in colder weather, AMSOIL has a 5W-30 Heavy duty Diesel oil with the same Zinc and Phosphorous levels.
A few things to consider when choosing your next motor oil…
AMO 10W-40 link
Zinc and Phosphorous numbers:
Zinc = 1378ppm
Phosphorous = 1265ppm
Typical Physical Properties data:
Viscosity Index = 178
TBN = 12.1
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Re: Is a quality 10w30 adequate for a mild 440?
[Re: Andrewh]
#98180
08/02/08 03:33 PM
08/02/08 03:33 PM
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,615
Table Rock Lake Missouri
furious
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Table Rock Lake Missouri
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Quote:
I read an article about oil weights.
It is interesting in that those numbers mean jack at operating temp.
Strictly speaking those are for when the engine cool starts.
Here is the article
http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=136052
Wow, that is a fantastic piece of information, thanks! I really appreciate it.
See you guys later, I am headed out to change the 15w50 Mobil 1, I put in the Barracuda LAST weekend!
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Re: Is a quality 10w30 adequate for a mild 440?
[Re: HOOVER24K]
#98181
08/02/08 06:51 PM
08/02/08 06:51 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 21,318
Manitoba, Canada
DaytonaTurbo
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Quote:
Is there any advantage using a high zinc content oil in a roller cammed engine or is this only adventageous in a flat tappet configuration?
Only relates to flat tappet cam setups. Rollers don't need to worry. Yet another reason to go roller I guess.
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Re: Is a quality 10w30 adequate for a mild 440?
[Re: mnguy55]
#98185
08/03/08 02:45 AM
08/03/08 02:45 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
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Wherever I am.
Junky
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Quote:
Is Valvoline VR1 synthetic? I’ve been running 10-30 regular valvoline in my stock 440 hp since I rebuilt it. It has the original springs and a magnum replacement cam.
I've been following all this zinc stuff and have thought of switching to VR1 but I am concerned about switching to a synthetic after running regular oil for about 4000 miles/8 years.
If you have kept up on the oil changes for the engine, the engine is pretty clean and the gaskets are in good condition, there should be no problems switching from dino oil to full synthetic oil. I had been running dino oil for several thousand miles over about 7 years in my 383 and switched to full synthetic with absolutely no problems, no leaks of any kind. I really like the synthetic motor oil. I run 5W40 Shell Rotella T full synthetic motor oil now. It has plenty of zinc by the way.
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Re: Is a quality 10w30 adequate for a mild 440?
[Re: Pacnorthcuda]
#98186
08/03/08 01:43 PM
08/03/08 01:43 PM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,698
NE Oklahoma
Von
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Quote:
No VR1 is not a synthetic, and I would not trust its zinc content without an additive--at least a bottle of stp red. I have seen staveley and blackstone reports that say VR1 has low zinc content--I have also seen high.
Yeah, what he said. 
72 RR, Pump gas 440, 452s, 3800 lbs, Corked, ET Radials,. 11.33@117.72.
Same car, bone stock 346s, 9.5 comp, baby solid. 12.24@110.
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Re: Is a quality 10w30 adequate for a mild 440?
[Re: Pentastar440]
#98187
08/03/08 02:46 PM
08/03/08 02:46 PM
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Anonymous
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Quote:
The answer is no. Don't use the 10w30 with a flat tappet cam . If the oil container says for Gasoline engines only and has the round sunburst symbol, then it has no zinc additives and is unexceptable to use in engines that do not have roller cams. I know of no 10w30 that still has zinc . Valvoline racing oil has zinc and there may be others too but do some research or you may wear the lobes off of the camshaft, scattering that debris all through your engine . 
 Also the Shell Rotella that was designed for deisels has the zinc in it and a lot of guys are now running it.
You won't find a reputable engine builder that will install a new cam in an engine that doesn't have an oil with a zinc additive in it. The no zinc problem is what many people attribute all of the new cam failures to in the last few years.
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Re: Is a quality 10w30 adequate for a mild 440?
#98188
08/03/08 03:11 PM
08/03/08 03:11 PM
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Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 141
MN
mnguy55
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MN
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Quote:
Quote:
The answer is no. Don't use the 10w30 with a flat tappet cam . If the oil container says for Gasoline engines only and has the round sunburst symbol, then it has no zinc additives and is unexceptable to use in engines that do not have roller cams. I know of no 10w30 that still has zinc . Valvoline racing oil has zinc and there may be others too but do some research or you may wear the lobes off of the camshaft, scattering that debris all through your engine .
Also the Shell Rotella that was designed for deisels has the zinc in it and a lot of guys are now running it.
You won't find a reputable engine builder that will install a new cam in an engine that doesn't have an oil with a zinc additive in it. The no zinc problem is what many people attribute all of the new cam failures to in the last few years.
I'm learning this oil/zinc stuff as I go but regular Valvoline 10-30 SM oil does have zinc. According to http://www.valvoline.com/products/All-Climate.pdf
it has 0.083/0.076 zinc/phosphorus.
The VR1 10-30 SM oil says at http://www.valvoline.com/products/VR-1%20Racing%20Motor%20Oil.pdf
that it has extra ZDDP and it states that it has 0.13/0.12 zinc phosphorus
Valvoline has this bulletin http://www.valvoline.com/downloads/2008-003a.pdf
dated June 2008 which says basically that they think the zinc in all their regular oils is sufficient but if you want extra the VR1 has about 75% more than their regular oil.
Again, I'm not an expert on any of this but I am trying to make some sense of it. I do have a concern with putting extra additives into an oil not knowing how it will react with the other additives that are already in that oil from the start.
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Re: Is a quality 10w30 adequate for a mild 440?
[Re: mnguy55]
#98191
08/03/08 07:16 PM
08/03/08 07:16 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,186
Wherever I am.
Junky
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Quote:
Quote:
There are other motor oils that have plenty of zinc, but none of the SM oils do.
I'm not trying to promote vr1 but is the http://www.valvoline.com/products/VR-1%20Racing%20Motor%20Oil.pdf where they say it meets SM but also has 0.13 zinc wrong?
According to Valvoline's web site VR1 Racing Motor Oil has 1300 zinc ppm. A decent amount, enough for flat tappet cams. Some racers like more zinc than that though.
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Re: Is a quality 10w30 adequate for a mild 440?
[Re: Pentastar440]
#98192
08/03/08 07:18 PM
08/03/08 07:18 PM
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 571
Western NC
68Bullit
mopar
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Western NC
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Quote:
The answer is no. Don't use the 10w30 with a flat tappet cam . If the oil container says for Gasoline engines only and has the round sunburst symbol, then it has no zinc additives and is unexceptable to use in engines that do not have roller cams. I know of no 10w30 that still has zinc . Valvoline racing oil has zinc and there may be others too but do some research or you may wear the lobes off of the camshaft, scattering that debris all through your engine .
So, again, is it okay to add a pint of additive to REGULAR oil? Or do you need the oil to have zinc already, AS WELL AS adding a pint of additive?
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Re: Is a quality 10w30 adequate for a mild 440?
[Re: 68Bullit]
#98193
08/03/08 07:39 PM
08/03/08 07:39 PM
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,213
Los Angeles, CA
Mobarge
pro stock
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pro stock
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Los Angeles, CA
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I'm running 10w 40 Royal Purple in a hi-po 413 RB and love it.
'71 SSP - SOLD!
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Re: Is a quality 10w30 adequate for a mild 440?
[Re: 68Bullit]
#98194
08/03/08 10:44 PM
08/03/08 10:44 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,186
Wherever I am.
Junky
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Quote:
Quote:
The answer is no. Don't use the 10w30 with a flat tappet cam . If the oil container says for Gasoline engines only and has the round sunburst symbol, then it has no zinc additives and is unexceptable to use in engines that do not have roller cams. I know of no 10w30 that still has zinc . Valvoline racing oil has zinc and there may be others too but do some research or you may wear the lobes off of the camshaft, scattering that debris all through your engine .
So, again, is it okay to add a pint of additive to REGULAR oil? Or do you need the oil to have zinc already, AS WELL AS adding a pint of additive?
The best thing to do is run an oil with a proper amount of zinc to begin with. But...if you have some SM (regular) oil, and a stock to mild engine, add some zinc additive to it and be done with it. Don't stress over it.
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Re: Is a quality 10w30 adequate for a mild 440?
[Re: Mobarge]
#98195
08/04/08 01:02 AM
08/04/08 01:02 AM
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
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I think RP has one of (if not the highest) amounts of zinc in it. should be a great choice. 
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Re: Is a quality 10w30 adequate for a mild 440?
#98197
08/04/08 10:03 AM
08/04/08 10:03 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,186
Wherever I am.
Junky
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mnguy55, Let me clarify the best I can. SM oils with the "star burst" label such as 0W20, 0W30, 10W30 will have far less zinc than 1,000 ppm, somewhere around 800. The heavier oils such as 10W40, 15W40, 5W50, 20W50, and others, are exempt from low levels of zinc and can exceed 800. I stay away from oils with the API Star Burst labels which is a sign that zinc is usually very limited. I also read which oils have a good amount of (at least 1200) zinc/phosphorus ppm so I know what to use and what to stay away from. Read here.I wish I could explain why VR1 10W30 SM oil can have 1,300 zinc, but I can't. I've never concerned myself with it, so I haven't gone to the trouble to find out, nor have I heard anything about it. I have only focused on Heavy Duty engine oils. If you want to run VR1, then run it and don't worry about the SM part. 
Last edited by Junky; 08/04/08 10:14 AM.
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Re: Is a quality 10w30 adequate for a mild 440?
[Re: BradH]
#98198
08/04/08 10:21 AM
08/04/08 10:21 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439
Val-haul-ass... eventually
BradH
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Taking time off to work on my car
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Since I'm the person who started this thread, let me add a couple of comments... First, I'm well aware of the implications of the reduced zinc & phos. content in the latest API ratings, which is why I specified Brad Penn Racing oil in my question. My only question was as to the applicability of the 10w30 viscosity. That said, after reviewing other stuff outside of this arena (including my repro factory service manual), I'd say that an engine like in my RR should probably use a 10w40 or 15w40 for the conditions under which my car is usually operated. IMO, a 10w30 would be OK for a standard rebuild, or if the car was normally being operated in 50-60 degree weather. However, for example, my drive to a somewhat local car show yesterday was in mid-80 degree temps, which are common for the summer where I live, a little heavier "hot" viscosity is probably better. FWIW, the car does currently have 15w40 in it, but I was considering running something lighter. Now I've decided it's an acceptable viscosity, even if I should choose to try a different brand. 
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Re: Is a quality 10w30 adequate for a mild 440?
[Re: BradH]
#98199
08/04/08 05:11 PM
08/04/08 05:11 PM
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Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 141
MN
mnguy55
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In regards to VR1 zinc content I asked Valvoline about it today. I asked: "Does VR1 that is currently being shipped still have the same zinc content (0.130) as this link indicates: http://www.valvoline.com/products/VR-1 Racing Motor Oil.pdf" to which they replied: "The Valvoline VR1 Racing Oil has never changed in the Zinc content. VR1 has always contained 1300 ppm or .130% of Zinc." So, unless they aren’t telling the truth there is a conventional SM rated oil (VR1) that has 1300 PPM zinc. I am going to use VR1 in my stock 1970 440HP. Hopefully it continues to run good.
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NEW! AMSOIL Dominator Synthetic 10W-30 Racing Oil.
[Re: BradH]
#98201
08/04/08 06:39 PM
08/04/08 06:39 PM
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,285
Pacific NW USA
CompSyn
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,285
Pacific NW USA
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Check this out! This is Amsoil’s brand new oil, Dominator Synthetic 10W-30 Racing Oil. One of the features are “high levels of zinc and phosphorus additives make it ideal for street rods, muscle cars and other vehicles with flat-tappet cams.” It’s so new that I haven’t seen any published data or VOAs on actual zinc and phosphorus levels. Just know that if Amsoil recommends it for flat-tappet engines, there’s going to be plenty of protection for your car. Read more… PRODUCT DESCRIPTION AMSOIL Dominator® Synthetic 10W-30 Racing Oil (RD30) provides superior performance and maximum protection in high-performance and racing applications. Formulated to withstand the elevated RPM, high temperatures and shock-loading common to racing applications, Dominator Synthetic 10W-30 Racing Oil delivers superior performance and maximum protection in extreme conditions. Its shear-stable formulation was engineered to provide maximum horsepower without sacrificing engine protection. Dominator Synthetic 10W-30 Racing Oil provides straight-grade protection in a multi-grade formulation. AMSOIL, the leader in automotive synthetic lubrication, produced the world’s first API-qualified synthetic motor oil in 1972. Trust the extensive experience of AMSOIL The First in Synthetics® to do the best job protecting your engine. MAXIMUM DURABILITY, MAXIMUM WEAR PROTECTION AMSOIL Dominator Synthetic Racing Oil features an additive package heavily fortified with zinc and phosphorus for superior long-term wear protection. Designed for maximum durability, it ensures critical engine components are protected for the duration of the race. Dominator Synthetic Racing Oil’s superior additive technology provides unmatched durability in extreme conditions. In addition, its high levels of zinc and phosphorus additives make it ideal for street rods, muscle cars and other vehicles with flat-tappet cams. SUPERIOR PERFORMANCE Dominator Synthetic Racing Oil’s proprietary friction modifier provides reduced friction for maximum power and cooler engine temperatures, resulting in improved lap times and longer-lasting equipment. PROTECTION FROM STARTUP TO THE CHECKERED FLAG Dominator Synthetic 10W-30 Racing Oil’s multi-viscosity design provides maximum protection in temperature extremes. Dominator Racing Oil offers excellent coldstart protection and provides less drag when engine oil has not reached stable operating temperatures. It maintains superior film strength during high-temperature operation on the track. SUPERIOR-QUALITY OILS, NO DISCRIMINATION Many oil companies produce specialty racing oils for elite groups and do not offer them to the general public. For instance, several popular oil manufacturers produce racing oils offered only to NASCAR racers. All AMSOIL synthetic motor oils are already formulated to a higher level of performance than competitors’ oils, and AMSOIL Dominator Synthetic Racing Oil is no exception. It provides maximum performance and superior protection to all racers, regardless of their level of competition. The same AMSOIL Dominator Synthetic Racing Oil that is used in the engines of AMSOIL corporately-sponsored racers, including Scott Douglas and Brady Smith, are available to everyone. APPLICATIONS AMSOIL Dominator Synthetic 10W-30 Racing Oil is recommended for high-rpm, high-horsepower, turbo/supercharged, gasoline- or alcohol-burning and nitrous oxide gas-injected applications operated under severe conditions. Applications include, but are not limited to, the following: • Asphalt Late Model • Dirt Late Model • Modified Big Block • Modified Small Block • GM Crate Late Model • Marine • Sprint • Midget • Legend • Kart • Other domestic and import high-performance racing and street applications requiring 30-weight oil. Purchase AMSOIL Dominator® Synthetic 10W-30 Racing Oil (RD30)  Click here to find out how you can get an immediate discount of 23% off AMSOIL Dominator Synthetic 10W-30 Racing Oil.
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Re: NEW! AMSOIL Dominator Synthetic 10W-30 Racing Oil.
[Re: CompSyn]
#98202
08/04/08 07:23 PM
08/04/08 07:23 PM
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 4,861
Riverside, Ca
R70RUNNER
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master
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Posts: 4,861
Riverside, Ca
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Why do these, oil threads, always turn into an Amsoil ads? 
Current cars: 2000 Dak Quad Cab, 2012 Challenger,1970 Road Runner, 1994 Firehawk
1966 Coronet post sedan, 1988 Corvette, 2005 Magnum RT all SOLD
R70RUNNER<---VP Inland Empire Chapter of the MPM
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Re: NEW! AMSOIL Dominator Synthetic 10W-30 Racing Oil.
[Re: R70RUNNER]
#98203
08/05/08 11:29 AM
08/05/08 11:29 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439
Val-haul-ass... eventually
BradH
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Taking time off to work on my car
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Val-haul-ass... eventually
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Quote:
Why do these, oil threads, always turn into an Amsoil ads?
FWIW, I run Amsoil in my Subaru WRX and think they make high-quality products. My RR has only been driven about 600 miles in the last two years since I changed the oil last. I'm having a hard time spending $10/qt for oil that gets drained on a time vs. usage basis thousands of miles before it's earned it's keep. I figure for such low usage I'm better off draining a less expensive oil more frequently to deal w/ the condensation issues, etc., that result from sitting for extended periods of time between drives.
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Re: NEW! AMSOIL Dominator Synthetic 10W-30 Racing Oil.
[Re: BradH]
#98204
08/05/08 11:44 AM
08/05/08 11:44 AM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 12,675
Columbia, CT
moper
I Live Here
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I Live Here
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Posts: 12,675
Columbia, CT
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Brad, there are two types of VR1... One is the API SM rated, which as I understand it cannot have the 1300ppm as you already know. Published tests shown it to have somewhere around that 800ppm level. The other is VR1 that is labeled as "not legal for public highway use". That rule applies to vehicles that were required to have catalytic convertors. So you'd be fine. That's the VR1 I use for "special" cams and that stuff actually smells a little like gear lube, and looks and feels different than modern oils. It's the cam, not the whole engine. If you have a lot of spring, it will not last with any SM oil currently for sale even if the tappets rotate and the thing fires instantaneously and is broken in on the outers alone. Fast rate lobes need spring. I use 320lbs open. If you exceed that, use the VR1 offroad. If not, break it in with VR1 offroad, maybe give it a few hundred miles of seating time, then you can run a std 10-30 or thicker. IMO, one cannot use a factory rating to figure out oiling when the book was written 40 years ago and the engine is no longer using springs with 180lbs open and no lobe lift. The class of SM oils has the same protection as the earlier ratings, minus anything the EPA mandated out for additives. I wont run anything rated newer than SJ on the bottle. It's at least old stock and has the higher zink. But getting harder to find. You post these on purpose, don't you 
Well, art is art, isn't it? Still, on the other hand, water is water! And east is east and west is west and if you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce they taste much more like prunes than rhubarb does. Now, uh... Now you tell me what you know.
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Re: NEW! AMSOIL Dominator Synthetic 10W-30 Racing Oil.
[Re: moper]
#98205
08/05/08 11:53 AM
08/05/08 11:53 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439
Val-haul-ass... eventually
BradH
OP
Taking time off to work on my car
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OP
Taking time off to work on my car
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439
Val-haul-ass... eventually
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Quote:
You post these on purpose, don't you
Who, ME???
One other comment re: Valvoline "NSL" "Not Street Legal" has no (or very little) detergents blended into it, so it's not the best stuff for a street car driven infrequently, unfortunately. Perhaps a mix of VR1 and NSL...  / 
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Re: NEW! AMSOIL Dominator Synthetic 10W-30 Racing Oil.
[Re: BradH]
#98206
08/05/08 12:09 PM
08/05/08 12:09 PM
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,285
Pacific NW USA
CompSyn
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,285
Pacific NW USA
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Why do these, oil threads, always turn into an Amsoil ads?
FWIW, I run Amsoil in my Subaru WRX and think they make high-quality products. My RR has only been driven about 600 miles in the last two years since I changed the oil last. I'm having a hard time spending $10/qt for oil that gets drained on a time vs. usage basis thousands of miles before it's earned it's keep. I figure for such low usage I'm better off draining a less expensive oil more frequently to deal w/ the condensation issues, etc., that result from sitting for extended periods of time between drives.
Brad,
Your concern in regards condensation issues is warranted. Have you considered Used Oil Analysis (UOA) to find out the actual condition of the oil when drained? Perhaps you could extend the oil change interval (OCI) past the 600-mile/24-month interval based off of UOAs?
I’d also consider the level of protection you’re getting with a top tier lubricant. I reason a extra coins per quart of oil could easily “earn its keep” when the alternative could be a premature engine rebuild.
CompSyn
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Re: NEW! AMSOIL Dominator Synthetic 10W-30 Racing Oil.
[Re: moper]
#98207
08/05/08 03:09 PM
08/05/08 03:09 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,186
Wherever I am.
Junky
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,186
Wherever I am.
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Quote:
Brad, there are two types of VR1... One is the API SM rated, which as I understand it cannot have the 1300ppm as you already know. Published tests shown it to have somewhere around that 800ppm level. The other is VR1 that is labeled as "not legal for public highway use". That rule applies to vehicles that were required to have catalytic convertors. So you'd be fine. That's the VR1 I use for "special" cams and that stuff actually smells a little like gear lube, and looks and feels different than modern oils. It's the cam, not the whole engine. If you have a lot of spring, it will not last with any SM oil currently for sale even if the tappets rotate and the thing fires instantaneously and is broken in on the outers alone. Fast rate lobes need spring. I use 320lbs open. If you exceed that, use the VR1 offroad. If not, break it in with VR1 offroad, maybe give it a few hundred miles of seating time, then you can run a std 10-30 or thicker. IMO, one cannot use a factory rating to figure out oiling when the book was written 40 years ago and the engine is no longer using springs with 180lbs open and no lobe lift. The class of SM oils has the same protection as the earlier ratings, minus anything the EPA mandated out for additives. I wont run anything rated newer than SJ on the bottle. It's at least old stock and has the higher zink. But getting harder to find.
You post these on purpose, don't you
I don't know what the VR1 is as far as SM goes, but it IS for racing AND street use. CLICK HERE
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Re: NEW! AMSOIL Dominator Synthetic 10W-30 Racing Oil.
[Re: Junky]
#98208
08/05/08 05:00 PM
08/05/08 05:00 PM
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Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 141
MN
mnguy55
member
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member
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 141
MN
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Quote:
Quote:
Brad, there are two types of VR1... One is the API SM rated, which as I understand it cannot have the 1300ppm as you already know. Published tests shown it to have somewhere around that 800ppm level. The other is VR1 that is labeled as "not legal for public highway use". That rule applies to vehicles that were required to have catalytic convertors. So you'd be fine. That's the VR1 I use for "special" cams and that stuff actually smells a little like gear lube, and looks and feels different than modern oils. It's the cam, not the whole engine. If you have a lot of spring, it will not last with any SM oil currently for sale even if the tappets rotate and the thing fires instantaneously and is broken in on the outers alone. Fast rate lobes need spring. I use 320lbs open. If you exceed that, use the VR1 offroad. If not, break it in with VR1 offroad, maybe give it a few hundred miles of seating time, then you can run a std 10-30 or thicker. IMO, one cannot use a factory rating to figure out oiling when the book was written 40 years ago and the engine is no longer using springs with 180lbs open and no lobe lift. The class of SM oils has the same protection as the earlier ratings, minus anything the EPA mandated out for additives. I wont run anything rated newer than SJ on the bottle. It's at least old stock and has the higher zink. But getting harder to find.
You post these on purpose, don't you
I don't know what the VR1 is as far as SM goes, but it IS for racing AND street use. CLICK HERE
Valvoline has 3 racing oils.
Racing VR1 Racing Motor Oil
Racing Synthetic Racing Oil
Racing Conventional Racing Oil
VR1 is labled as a API rated SM oil that has 1300 PPM zinc. http://www.valvoline.com/products/VR-1%20Racing%20Motor%20Oil.pdf
VR1 is labled for street or race use.
The other two oils are labled not street legal and dont have API ratings.
SM was introduced in November 2004.
I used the Valvoline tech email and asked them:
"Does VR1 that is currently being shipped still have the same zinc content (0.130) as this link indicates: http://www.valvoline.com/products/VR-1 Racing Motor Oil.pdf The sheet at this link is dated 2006. Many in the collector car community believe that VR1 has been reduced below the zinc level show in that 2006 vintage link in order to meet the SM rating."
to which the Valvoline rep replied:
"The Valvoline VR1 Racing Oil has never changed in the Zinc content. VR1 has always contained 1300 ppm or .130% of Zinc. Here is the real story behind the myth. With ever increasing limits on emissions, automobile manufacturers have tightened emission control systems on newer vehicles. This is one of several factors considered when the American Petroleum Institute (API) sets standards for engine oil. The current API standard is “SM,” which replaced the previous “SL” classification. Because phosphorus can poison a vehicle’s emission system, the level of zinc is lower for current engine oil. Because of this, many hands-on car enthusiasts and engine experts believe the lower levels of zinc in “SM” engine oil is causing excessive wear in older style push-rod and flat tappet engines. This is despite the fact that all new engine oil classifications are intended to be backward compatible, which in turn has resulted in the widely accepted belief that modern engine oil is not adequate to protect older engines.
Valvoline uses an advanced zinc/phosphorus additive that keeps higher levels of phosphorus in the engine oil where it protects the engine, instead of poisoning the catalytic converter. Valvoline is the only brand offering this unique additive across its entire line of passenger car engine oils, including SynPower which is the only synthetic offering this additive.
The only exclusion to the would be if you are operating a high performance or aggressive cam application, where high Zinc levels may be required. Because of these requirements, there are high-zinc engine oils available to meet this need, such as our Valvoline VR1 Racing Oil. The VR1 Racing Oil establishes a 75% higher zinc content than SM engine oil with a balanced additive package designed to work in both racing and street-legal applications. This product will protect older style push-rod and flat tappet engines and carries an oil change interval recommendation of 3 month/3,000 miles.
It is important to note, however, that the entire additive package still needs to be balanced for best performance. For example, engine oil with a high zinc level but low detergent may not perform over a drain interval of 3,000 miles or longer."
So, Valvoline flat out claims that the current VR1 contains 1300 PPM zinc.
Have there been tests on VR1 indicating something less than that? Where? I'm not saying Valvoline is right, I just want proof they arent.
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