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Re: Is a quality 10w30 adequate for a mild 440? [Re: mnguy55] #98185
08/03/08 02:45 AM
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Is Valvoline VR1 synthetic? I’ve been running 10-30 regular valvoline in my stock 440 hp since I rebuilt it. It has the original springs and a magnum replacement cam.

I've been following all this zinc stuff and have thought of switching to VR1 but I am concerned about switching to a synthetic after running regular oil for about 4000 miles/8 years.



If you have kept up on the oil changes for the engine, the engine is pretty clean and the gaskets are in good condition, there should be no problems switching from dino oil to full synthetic oil. I had been running dino oil for several thousand miles over about 7 years in my 383 and switched to full synthetic with absolutely no problems, no leaks of any kind. I really like the synthetic motor oil. I run 5W40 Shell Rotella T full synthetic motor oil now. It has plenty of zinc by the way.


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Re: Is a quality 10w30 adequate for a mild 440? [Re: Pacnorthcuda] #98186
08/03/08 01:43 PM
08/03/08 01:43 PM
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Quote:

No VR1 is not a synthetic, and I would not trust its zinc content without an additive--at least a bottle of stp red. I have seen staveley and blackstone reports that say VR1 has low zinc content--I have also seen high.




Yeah, what he said.


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Re: Is a quality 10w30 adequate for a mild 440? [Re: Pentastar440] #98187
08/03/08 02:46 PM
08/03/08 02:46 PM

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Quote:

The answer is no. Don't use the 10w30 with a flat tappet cam . If the oil container says for Gasoline engines only and has the round sunburst symbol, then it has no zinc additives and is unexceptable to use in engines that do not have roller cams. I know of no 10w30 that still has zinc . Valvoline racing oil has zinc and there may be others too but do some research or you may wear the lobes off of the camshaft, scattering that debris all through your engine .




Also the Shell Rotella that was designed for deisels has the zinc in it and a lot of guys are now running it.

You won't find a reputable engine builder that will install a new cam in an engine that doesn't have an oil with a zinc additive in it. The no zinc problem is what many people attribute all of the new cam failures to in the last few years.

Re: Is a quality 10w30 adequate for a mild 440? #98188
08/03/08 03:11 PM
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Quote:

Quote:

The answer is no. Don't use the 10w30 with a flat tappet cam . If the oil container says for Gasoline engines only and has the round sunburst symbol, then it has no zinc additives and is unexceptable to use in engines that do not have roller cams. I know of no 10w30 that still has zinc . Valvoline racing oil has zinc and there may be others too but do some research or you may wear the lobes off of the camshaft, scattering that debris all through your engine .




Also the Shell Rotella that was designed for deisels has the zinc in it and a lot of guys are now running it.

You won't find a reputable engine builder that will install a new cam in an engine that doesn't have an oil with a zinc additive in it. The no zinc problem is what many people attribute all of the new cam failures to in the last few years.





I'm learning this oil/zinc stuff as I go but regular Valvoline 10-30 SM oil does have zinc. According to http://www.valvoline.com/products/All-Climate.pdf
it has 0.083/0.076 zinc/phosphorus.

The VR1 10-30 SM oil says at http://www.valvoline.com/products/VR-1%20Racing%20Motor%20Oil.pdf
that it has extra ZDDP and it states that it has 0.13/0.12 zinc phosphorus

Valvoline has this bulletin http://www.valvoline.com/downloads/2008-003a.pdf
dated June 2008 which says basically that they think the zinc in all their regular oils is sufficient but if you want extra the VR1 has about 75% more than their regular oil.

Again, I'm not an expert on any of this but I am trying to make some sense of it. I do have a concern with putting extra additives into an oil not knowing how it will react with the other additives that are already in that oil from the start.

Re: Is a quality 10w30 adequate for a mild 440? [Re: mnguy55] #98189
08/03/08 05:30 PM
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Our older flat tappet cam engines need zinc. The SM oils have far less than the magic number of 1200 ppm zinc, which is OK for modern engines with roller cams and rockers. Also, the higher valve spring pressure rates need zinc, at least 1200 ppm. The heavy duty and diesel oils have at least 1,100 ppm of zinc, I think Shell Rotella T 15W40 dino oil is the lowest in zinc, but still above 1100 ppm. But Shell's Rotella T 5W40 synthetic oil has near 1400 zinc ppm. There are other motor oils that have plenty of zinc, but none of the SM oils do.


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Re: Is a quality 10w30 adequate for a mild 440? [Re: Junky] #98190
08/03/08 06:44 PM
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Quote:

There are other motor oils that have plenty of zinc, but none of the SM oils do.




I'm not trying to promote vr1 but is the http://www.valvoline.com/products/VR-1%20Racing%20Motor%20Oil.pdf where they say it meets SM but also has 0.13 zinc wrong?

Re: Is a quality 10w30 adequate for a mild 440? [Re: mnguy55] #98191
08/03/08 07:16 PM
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Quote:

Quote:

There are other motor oils that have plenty of zinc, but none of the SM oils do.




I'm not trying to promote vr1 but is the http://www.valvoline.com/products/VR-1%20Racing%20Motor%20Oil.pdf where they say it meets SM but also has 0.13 zinc wrong?



According to Valvoline's web site VR1 Racing Motor Oil has 1300 zinc ppm. A decent amount, enough for flat tappet cams. Some racers like more zinc than that though.


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Re: Is a quality 10w30 adequate for a mild 440? [Re: Pentastar440] #98192
08/03/08 07:18 PM
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Quote:

The answer is no. Don't use the 10w30 with a flat tappet cam . If the oil container says for Gasoline engines only and has the round sunburst symbol, then it has no zinc additives and is unexceptable to use in engines that do not have roller cams. I know of no 10w30 that still has zinc . Valvoline racing oil has zinc and there may be others too but do some research or you may wear the lobes off of the camshaft, scattering that debris all through your engine .




So, again, is it okay to add a pint of additive to REGULAR oil? Or do you need the oil to have zinc already, AS WELL AS adding a pint of additive?

Re: Is a quality 10w30 adequate for a mild 440? [Re: 68Bullit] #98193
08/03/08 07:39 PM
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I'm running 10w 40 Royal Purple in a hi-po 413 RB and love it.


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Re: Is a quality 10w30 adequate for a mild 440? [Re: 68Bullit] #98194
08/03/08 10:44 PM
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Quote:

Quote:

The answer is no. Don't use the 10w30 with a flat tappet cam . If the oil container says for Gasoline engines only and has the round sunburst symbol, then it has no zinc additives and is unexceptable to use in engines that do not have roller cams. I know of no 10w30 that still has zinc . Valvoline racing oil has zinc and there may be others too but do some research or you may wear the lobes off of the camshaft, scattering that debris all through your engine .




So, again, is it okay to add a pint of additive to REGULAR oil? Or do you need the oil to have zinc already, AS WELL AS adding a pint of additive?



The best thing to do is run an oil with a proper amount of zinc to begin with. But...if you have some SM (regular) oil, and a stock to mild engine, add some zinc additive to it and be done with it. Don't stress over it.


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Re: Is a quality 10w30 adequate for a mild 440? [Re: Mobarge] #98195
08/04/08 01:02 AM
08/04/08 01:02 AM

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I think RP has one of (if not the highest) amounts of zinc in it. should be a great choice.

Re: Is a quality 10w30 adequate for a mild 440? [Re: Junky] #98196
08/04/08 07:08 AM
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But...if you have some SM (regular) oil, and a stock to mild engine, add some zinc additive to it and be done with it. Don't stress over it.




This is where I am confused. VR1 says it is SM but also says it has 0.13 zinc?

Re: Is a quality 10w30 adequate for a mild 440? #98197
08/04/08 10:03 AM
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mnguy55,

Let me clarify the best I can. SM oils with the "star burst" label such as 0W20, 0W30, 10W30 will have far less zinc than 1,000 ppm, somewhere around 800. The heavier oils such as 10W40, 15W40, 5W50, 20W50, and others, are exempt from low levels of zinc and can exceed 800. I stay away from oils with the API Star Burst labels which is a sign that zinc is usually very limited. I also read which oils have a good amount of (at least 1200) zinc/phosphorus ppm so I know what to use and what to stay away from. Read here.
I wish I could explain why VR1 10W30 SM oil can have 1,300 zinc, but I can't. I've never concerned myself with it, so I haven't gone to the trouble to find out, nor have I heard anything about it. I have only focused on Heavy Duty engine oils.

If you want to run VR1, then run it and don't worry about the SM part.

Last edited by Junky; 08/04/08 10:14 AM.

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Re: Is a quality 10w30 adequate for a mild 440? [Re: BradH] #98198
08/04/08 10:21 AM
08/04/08 10:21 AM
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Since I'm the person who started this thread, let me add a couple of comments...

First, I'm well aware of the implications of the reduced zinc & phos. content in the latest API ratings, which is why I specified Brad Penn Racing oil in my question. My only question was as to the applicability of the 10w30 viscosity.

That said, after reviewing other stuff outside of this arena (including my repro factory service manual), I'd say that an engine like in my RR should probably use a 10w40 or 15w40 for the conditions under which my car is usually operated. IMO, a 10w30 would be OK for a standard rebuild, or if the car was normally being operated in 50-60 degree weather. However, for example, my drive to a somewhat local car show yesterday was in mid-80 degree temps, which are common for the summer where I live, a little heavier "hot" viscosity is probably better.

FWIW, the car does currently have 15w40 in it, but I was considering running something lighter. Now I've decided it's an acceptable viscosity, even if I should choose to try a different brand.


Re: Is a quality 10w30 adequate for a mild 440? [Re: BradH] #98199
08/04/08 05:11 PM
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In regards to VR1 zinc content I asked Valvoline about it today. I asked:

"Does VR1 that is currently being shipped still have the same zinc content (0.130) as this link indicates: http://www.valvoline.com/products/VR-1 Racing Motor Oil.pdf"

to which they replied:

"The Valvoline VR1 Racing Oil has never changed in the Zinc content. VR1 has always contained 1300 ppm or .130% of Zinc."

So, unless they aren’t telling the truth there is a conventional SM rated oil (VR1) that has 1300 PPM zinc.

I am going to use VR1 in my stock 1970 440HP. Hopefully it continues to run good.

Re: Is a quality 10w30 adequate for a mild 440? [Re: mnguy55] #98200
08/04/08 05:58 PM
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I guess I need to get off the $$$ and have some VOAs done on current oil samples, such as the SM-rated VR1. I've heard enough questionable results on that stuff that there's only one way for me to have any confidence it's what Valvoline claims. Otherwise, I'd run it... but I'd make sure I put something "extra" in with it for peace of mind.

NEW! AMSOIL Dominator Synthetic 10W-30 Racing Oil. [Re: BradH] #98201
08/04/08 06:39 PM
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Check this out! This is Amsoil’s brand new oil, Dominator Synthetic 10W-30 Racing Oil. One of the features are “high levels of zinc and phosphorus additives make it ideal for street rods, muscle cars and other vehicles with flat-tappet cams.” It’s so new that I haven’t seen any published data or VOAs on actual zinc and phosphorus levels. Just know that if Amsoil recommends it for flat-tappet engines, there’s going to be plenty of protection for your car.

Read more…

PRODUCT DESCRIPTION
AMSOIL Dominator® Synthetic 10W-30 Racing Oil (RD30) provides superior performance and maximum protection in high-performance and racing applications. Formulated to withstand the elevated RPM, high temperatures and shock-loading common to racing applications, Dominator Synthetic 10W-30 Racing Oil delivers superior performance and maximum protection in extreme conditions. Its shear-stable formulation was engineered to provide maximum horsepower without sacrificing engine protection. Dominator Synthetic 10W-30 Racing Oil provides straight-grade protection in a multi-grade formulation.

AMSOIL, the leader in automotive synthetic lubrication, produced the world’s first API-qualified synthetic motor oil in 1972. Trust the extensive experience of AMSOIL The First in Synthetics® to do the best job protecting your engine.

MAXIMUM DURABILITY, MAXIMUM WEAR PROTECTION
AMSOIL Dominator Synthetic Racing Oil features an additive package heavily fortified with zinc and phosphorus for superior long-term wear protection. Designed for maximum durability, it ensures critical engine components are protected for the duration of the race. Dominator Synthetic Racing Oil’s superior additive technology provides unmatched durability in extreme conditions. In addition, its high levels of zinc and phosphorus additives make it ideal for street rods, muscle cars and other vehicles with flat-tappet cams.

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Dominator Synthetic 10W-30 Racing Oil’s multi-viscosity design provides maximum protection in temperature extremes. Dominator Racing Oil offers excellent coldstart protection and provides less drag when engine oil has not reached stable operating temperatures. It maintains superior film strength during high-temperature operation on the track.

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Applications include, but are not limited to, the following:
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Re: NEW! AMSOIL Dominator Synthetic 10W-30 Racing Oil. [Re: CompSyn] #98202
08/04/08 07:23 PM
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Why do these, oil threads, always turn into an Amsoil ads?


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Re: NEW! AMSOIL Dominator Synthetic 10W-30 Racing Oil. [Re: R70RUNNER] #98203
08/05/08 11:29 AM
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Quote:

Why do these, oil threads, always turn into an Amsoil ads?





FWIW, I run Amsoil in my Subaru WRX and think they make high-quality products. My RR has only been driven about 600 miles in the last two years since I changed the oil last. I'm having a hard time spending $10/qt for oil that gets drained on a time vs. usage basis thousands of miles before it's earned it's keep. I figure for such low usage I'm better off draining a less expensive oil more frequently to deal w/ the condensation issues, etc., that result from sitting for extended periods of time between drives.

Re: NEW! AMSOIL Dominator Synthetic 10W-30 Racing Oil. [Re: BradH] #98204
08/05/08 11:44 AM
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Brad, there are two types of VR1... One is the API SM rated, which as I understand it cannot have the 1300ppm as you already know. Published tests shown it to have somewhere around that 800ppm level. The other is VR1 that is labeled as "not legal for public highway use". That rule applies to vehicles that were required to have catalytic convertors. So you'd be fine. That's the VR1 I use for "special" cams and that stuff actually smells a little like gear lube, and looks and feels different than modern oils. It's the cam, not the whole engine. If you have a lot of spring, it will not last with any SM oil currently for sale even if the tappets rotate and the thing fires instantaneously and is broken in on the outers alone. Fast rate lobes need spring. I use 320lbs open. If you exceed that, use the VR1 offroad. If not, break it in with VR1 offroad, maybe give it a few hundred miles of seating time, then you can run a std 10-30 or thicker. IMO, one cannot use a factory rating to figure out oiling when the book was written 40 years ago and the engine is no longer using springs with 180lbs open and no lobe lift. The class of SM oils has the same protection as the earlier ratings, minus anything the EPA mandated out for additives. I wont run anything rated newer than SJ on the bottle. It's at least old stock and has the higher zink. But getting harder to find.

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