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Re: Are there any tricks to help seating rings... [Re: Challenger 1] #952787
03/20/11 01:27 PM
03/20/11 01:27 PM
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 30,252
Florida STAYcation
dIc dOc Deity ! Offline
The village idiot's idiot
dIc dOc Deity !  Offline
The village idiot's idiot

Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 30,252
Florida STAYcation
Quote:



Where you at? you making at money today?




Sorry ...I OVERlooked this part ......

At ? ... my tool box is beaucoup SHORT of what you have !! and the Craftsman rollaway I have I bought at the Mopar Nats ....on Sunday JUST before closing for 50 beans ..

Me making $$ ? ... LIVING off the sale of those new-and-improved ThermoQuad air-valve tools will be allowing me to purchase a private island in-da-Keys .... .....NOT ...

Just letting my Apple stock ...werk-ferr-me !

Re: Are there any tricks to help seating rings... [Re: dIc dOc Deity !] #952788
03/20/11 02:09 PM
03/20/11 02:09 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
R
RapidRobert Offline
Circle Track
RapidRobert  Offline
Circle Track
R

Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
Quote:

WHO HERE likes a dingle-berry hone ?


I do, for a final finish after regular honing w the Sunnen CK-10 "grasshopper"


live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
Re: Are there any tricks to help seating rings... [Re: Kern Dog] #952789
03/20/11 04:50 PM
03/20/11 04:50 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,907
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR Offline
I Win
JohnRR  Offline
I Win

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,907
U.S.S.A.
Quote:


In 2004 when I built the 440/493, I drove it REAL easy during the first 500 miles, then changed the oil. In the next 2500 miles, it used oil, got slower and eventually started smoking . I pulled the motor out to hone it and put in new rings.




You left out that you ran a X number of cam lobes worth of metal filings thru it in part of that 2500 miles from 2 cams that went flat .....

Look at a race motor , break in the cam if a flat tappet .... then start racing it ...

Re: Are there any tricks to help seating rings... [Re: JohnRR] #952790
03/20/11 05:23 PM
03/20/11 05:23 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog Offline
Striving for excellence
Kern Dog  Offline
Striving for excellence

Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
Quote:

Quote:


In 2004 when I built the 440/493, I drove it REAL easy during the first 500 miles, then changed the oil. In the next 2500 miles, it used oil, got slower and eventually started smoking . I pulled the motor out to hone it and put in new rings.




You left out that you ran a X number of cam lobes worth of metal filings thru it in part of that 2500 miles from 2 cams that went flat .....

Look at a race motor , break in the cam if a flat tappet .... then start racing it ...




GOOD Memory! I'm sure that the 2 dead cams added to my problems. Cant slip that by you, huh?

Re: Are there any tricks to help seating rings... [Re: Kern Dog] #952791
03/20/11 05:26 PM
03/20/11 05:26 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 84
Florida, USA
M
MoparMichael Offline
member
MoparMichael  Offline
member
M

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 84
Florida, USA
pour a.t.f down carb while running about 3000 r.p.m.

Re: Are there any tricks to help seating rings... [Re: MoparMichael] #952792
03/20/11 05:37 PM
03/20/11 05:37 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog Offline
Striving for excellence
Kern Dog  Offline
Striving for excellence

Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
Then rebuild motor again.

Re: Are there any tricks to help seating rings... [Re: Kern Dog] #952793
03/20/11 05:43 PM
03/20/11 05:43 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,907
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR Offline
I Win
JohnRR  Offline
I Win

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,907
U.S.S.A.
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:


In 2004 when I built the 440/493, I drove it REAL easy during the first 500 miles, then changed the oil. In the next 2500 miles, it used oil, got slower and eventually started smoking . I pulled the motor out to hone it and put in new rings.




You left out that you ran a X number of cam lobes worth of metal filings thru it in part of that 2500 miles from 2 cams that went flat .....

Look at a race motor , break in the cam if a flat tappet .... then start racing it ...




GOOD Memory! I'm sure that the 2 dead cams added to my problems. Cant slip that by you, huh?




Nope , I'm still shaking my head, and laughing my [Edited by Moparts - Family Friendly Site - Keep it clean] off, when people think they can just change the oil and swap a cam after devouring a cam lobe , or 5 , and everything will be FINE ... ...

Re: Are there any tricks to help seating rings... [Re: JohnRR] #952794
03/20/11 07:14 PM
03/20/11 07:14 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog Offline
Striving for excellence
Kern Dog  Offline
Striving for excellence

Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
I understand that you have your beliefs. I respect that. I have been a WOOD mechanic (Carpenter) for 25 years and that trade has taught me that MY way isnt the ONLY way to do things.
In the case of my Charger and its motor problems, When I tore down the motor last month, I saw very little debris. I noticed some near parting lines on the block and in crevices in the heads near drainback holes, but the bottom of the pan wasn't filled with metal shavings. The cylinder walls didn't have gouges in them. I DO agree that losing a cam lobe is bad but from your posts I gather that you are very conservative about engine building. I see your perspective as being cautiously pessimistic. I am the type that takes risks that often pay off. If I read your posts and then read another from someone like me, I might be inclined to side with you, IF I HAD THE TIME AND MONEY. I think that you are much more knowledgeable than I, but some kids have to learn things for themselves.
I will certainly give closer consideration to pulling and douching a motor that wipes a cam in the future, thanks to you. Please do not consider my words as any sort of insult. Quite the contrary. I think that a mans best lessons are sometimes the ones he learns the hard way.

Re: Are there any tricks to help seating rings... [Re: Kern Dog] #952795
03/20/11 08:01 PM
03/20/11 08:01 PM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,472
Overland Park, KS.
J
Joshs68 Offline
pro stock
Joshs68  Offline
pro stock
J

Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,472
Overland Park, KS.
I have had the break in argument with my father in law more than once.
My opinion is that metal does not get stronger with use/age, and any engine that takes 1000's of miles to "break in" had machine work so bad that it wouldn't have made it that long in the first place.

Re: Are there any tricks to help seating rings... [Re: Kern Dog] #952796
03/20/11 08:47 PM
03/20/11 08:47 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,907
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR Offline
I Win
JohnRR  Offline
I Win

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,907
U.S.S.A.
Quote:

I understand that you have your beliefs. I respect that. I have been a WOOD mechanic (Carpenter) for 25 years and that trade has taught me that MY way isnt the ONLY way to do things.
In the case of my Charger and its motor problems, When I tore down the motor last month, I saw very little debris. I noticed some near parting lines on the block and in crevices in the heads near drainback holes, but the bottom of the pan wasn't filled with metal shavings. The cylinder walls didn't have gouges in them. I DO agree that losing a cam lobe is bad but from your posts I gather that you are very conservative about engine building. I see your perspective as being cautiously pessimistic. I am the type that takes risks that often pay off. If I read your posts and then read another from someone like me, I might be inclined to side with you, IF I HAD THE TIME AND MONEY. I think that you are much more knowledgeable than I, but some kids have to learn things for themselves.
I will certainly give closer consideration to pulling and douching a motor that wipes a cam in the future, thanks to you. Please do not consider my words as any sort of insult. Quite the contrary. I think that a mans best lessons are sometimes the ones he learns the hard way.




What did the inside of the oil pump look like? The oil goes thru the pump before it goes thru the filter.

I spun a bearing , ran the motor for a short time not knowing it spun a bearing , oil pressure was good and no knocking , it was screaching and I thought it was the hencho en mexico throwout bearing I didn't change out on the clutch change , I had metal particles INSIDE the 800 mile old hyd. lifters.

I'll dig out the bearings and the pistons from the engine masters build we did, it started to eat multiple lobes on 2 cams , but only started to fleck off the surface, minimal pulls with Schebeck lifters and nothing went flat , you should see what the bearings look like .

Re: Are there any tricks to help seating rings... [Re: Kern Dog] #952797
03/20/11 08:55 PM
03/20/11 08:55 PM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 8,716
Baltimore/Denver
64Post Offline
master
64Post  Offline
master

Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 8,716
Baltimore/Denver
Quote:

I understand that you have your beliefs. I respect that. I have been a WOOD mechanic (Carpenter) for 25 years and that trade has taught me that MY way isnt the ONLY way to do things.
In the case of my Charger and its motor problems, When I tore down the motor last month, I saw very little debris. I noticed some near parting lines on the block and in crevices in the heads near drainback holes, but the bottom of the pan wasn't filled with metal shavings. The cylinder walls didn't have gouges in them. I DO agree that losing a cam lobe is bad but from your posts I gather that you are very conservative about engine building. I see your perspective as being cautiously pessimistic. I am the type that takes risks that often pay off. If I read your posts and then read another from someone like me, I might be inclined to side with you, IF I HAD THE TIME AND MONEY. I think that you are much more knowledgeable than I, but some kids have to learn things for themselves.
I will certainly give closer consideration to pulling and douching a motor that wipes a cam in the future, thanks to you. Please do not consider my words as any sort of insult. Quite the contrary. I think that a mans best lessons are sometimes the ones he learns the hard way.




To put it another way, there is no positive benefit (only negative) from metal shavings in an engine. Could you get by with it? Sure. Some people are just more comfortable with their decision.

I wiped a solid cam rolling the dice on spring pressure. I tore it down completely, power washed the block and all the passages, re-honed, new bearings and rings, oil pump, and picked as many of the shavings from the skirts as I could see using a magnify glass and razor blade. Overkill according to some, but that's just how I roll...

Re: Are there any tricks to help seating rings... [Re: 64Post] #952798
03/20/11 09:01 PM
03/20/11 09:01 PM

A
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
A



Quote:

Quote:

I understand that you have your beliefs. I respect that. I have been a WOOD mechanic (Carpenter) for 25 years and that trade has taught me that MY way isnt the ONLY way to do things.
In the case of my Charger and its motor problems, When I tore down the motor last month, I saw very little debris. I noticed some near parting lines on the block and in crevices in the heads near drainback holes, but the bottom of the pan wasn't filled with metal shavings. The cylinder walls didn't have gouges in them. I DO agree that losing a cam lobe is bad but from your posts I gather that you are very conservative about engine building. I see your perspective as being cautiously pessimistic. I am the type that takes risks that often pay off. If I read your posts and then read another from someone like me, I might be inclined to side with you, IF I HAD THE TIME AND MONEY. I think that you are much more knowledgeable than I, but some kids have to learn things for themselves.
I will certainly give closer consideration to pulling and douching a motor that wipes a cam in the future, thanks to you. Please do not consider my words as any sort of insult. Quite the contrary. I think that a mans best lessons are sometimes the ones he learns the hard way.




To put it another way, there is no positive benefit (only negative) from metal shavings in an engine. Could you get by with it? Sure. Some people are just more comfortable with their decision.

I wiped a solid cam rolling the dice on spring pressure. I tore it down completely, power washed the block and all the passages, re-honed, new bearings and rings, oil pump, and picked as many of the shavings from the skirts as I could see using a magnify glass and razor blade. Overkill according to some, but that's just how I roll...






You can either do it once and do it right taking your time in the process or you can keep making the same mistakes over and over and over....

Personally all of my engines (even stock-ish rebuild for my truck!) went back together as meticulously clean as I could get them! Never had a problem and beat on them the minute the cam was broken in!

Re: Are there any tricks to help seating rings... #952799
03/20/11 09:16 PM
03/20/11 09:16 PM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 11,179
Atco NJ
DJVCuda Offline
I Live Here
DJVCuda  Offline
I Live Here

Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 11,179
Atco NJ
broke the cam in - changed the oil and let it rip - the hood never even made it on the car...


Re: Are there any tricks to help seating rings... [Re: DJVCuda] #952800
03/20/11 11:35 PM
03/20/11 11:35 PM
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,324
Western Pa
joewhite440 Offline
pro stock
joewhite440  Offline
pro stock

Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,324
Western Pa
I have had quite a few new rebuilds. My method is like many others except one thing. When changing oil after Cam Break in etc. I drain the oil through rag, strainer what ever works. Cut the head off the original filter and spread out and check element for metal. Refill with oil and run it like you stole it when you feel like it.

Re: Are there any tricks to help seating rings... [Re: DJVCuda] #952801
03/20/11 11:48 PM
03/20/11 11:48 PM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 292
Keizer, Oregon
D
Dadrules Offline
enthusiast
Dadrules  Offline
enthusiast
D

Joined: May 2005
Posts: 292
Keizer, Oregon
Quote:

broke the cam in - changed the oil and let it rip - the hood never even made it on the car...







well that clip brought a smile to my face after an afternoon on a jackhammer....getting ready to pour a driveway to the just expanded shop with 10 ft ceiling. time for a lift.

Re: Are there any tricks to help seating rings... [Re: joewhite440] #952802
03/21/11 11:16 AM
03/21/11 11:16 AM
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 30,252
Florida STAYcation
dIc dOc Deity ! Offline
The village idiot's idiot
dIc dOc Deity !  Offline
The village idiot's idiot

Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 30,252
Florida STAYcation
Quote:

I have had quite a few new rebuilds. My method is like many others except one thing. When changing oil after Cam Break in etc. I drain the oil through rag, strainer what ever works. Cut the head off the original filter and spread out and check element for metal. Refill with oil and run it like you stole it when you feel like it.




I am surprised no one has mentioned so far ....

How about magnetic-probed drain-plug say with a 2" or so extension. It is has been awhile since I have R&Red a motor out to do a complete rebuild(and have the oil-pan off) ... but when I did ...I always put one of those thin donut magnets in the bottom of that pan.

MAYBE these days ... with the issues with oil(the lack of zinc) it might be the plan to put TWO of these donuts in.


Re: Are there any tricks to help seating rings... [Re: dIc dOc Deity !] #952803
03/21/11 05:43 PM
03/21/11 05:43 PM
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,212
QLD Australia
Keith Black® Offline
pro stock
Keith Black®  Offline
pro stock

Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,212
QLD Australia
Quote:

WHO HERE likes a dingle-berry hone ?




My understanding is that the hone process is critical. Especially the crosshatch angle and grade of the stone. The finish must match the type of ring used and prevent unnecessary loading of the rings. Plateau is the area between hone grooves which in surface area is just as important to the depth of the honing grooves for oil retention & seal.
IMO honing is a precision process, which means professional equipment. the bore cleaning process is also crucial as much material holds up in the grooves.


--------------------------------
Darren Beale
Keith Black Racing Engines®
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