Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
MSD Ignition systems VS Mopar Performance.... #949770
03/13/11 05:17 AM
03/13/11 05:17 AM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog Offline OP
Striving for excellence
Kern Dog  Offline OP
Striving for excellence

Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
I just got the Charger fired up and running after having the motor out for a light hone, new rings and bearings. While trying to fire it up, I had trouble getting spark. EVERYthing was fine before the teardown. This has happened before. I've had ECMs and distributors fail to work after swapping cams. I have no idea why either. I was lucky this time that I pre oiled the motor and was reusing the same cam and lifters or excessive start up wear would have certainly occurred.
This time I had to replace both the ECM AND the Mopar Performance distributor with units I tested on another car. The distributor is from a motorhome so the advance curve is surely ALL wrong for this motor. My choices now are to either fix the MP distributor (since it was recurved to my engine combo) or ditch everything and step up to an MSD system. My questions are: 1)How reliable are the MSD systems? 2)What are the prices of a complete system with the basics such as Rev limiters ? 3) Is there any power to be gained if both systems are functioning correctly?
I think I know the answer to #3, but I am interested in having total reliability rather than power. I could call Summit, but I really like to hear from people that do NOT have a financial motive.
Finally....If you are running the MSD system, where did you hide the massive box? Inside the wheelwell? Between the grille and radiator? I don't want the engine bay MORE cluttered than it already is.

Re: MSD Ignition systems VS Mopar Performance.... [Re: Kern Dog] #949771
03/13/11 07:39 AM
03/13/11 07:39 AM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 357
Lake Elmo, MN
Evil Monkey Offline
enthusiast
Evil Monkey  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 357
Lake Elmo, MN
I ran the MSD 6A unit in my Cuda for a long time - I bought it in the mid '90s. I kept my Mopar distributor, and kept the ECM and all wiring in place, but disconnected, so that if the MSD box ever went out, I could quickly switch back over to the Mopar ignition and be back on the road. The MSD box never failed, so I have never needed the backup system. I finally replaced the MSD with a Crane Hi-6 multiple spark ignition that has an adjustable rev limiter built in, and put the MSD box in a 5th Ave. I took the MSD box out when I junked the 5th Ave, and if I put it in a car today, it would still work. I haven't had any problems with the Crane box that replaced the MSD box either, so they both have been very reliable for me.

The Multi spark boxes really won't give you more power - they only send multiple sparks at lower RPMs. I believe that by the time you hit 3000 RPM they are only sending a single spark. The thing they do is to give you a better idle, and you might get a little better low end torque due to getting a more complete burn at lower RPMs because of the multiple sparks. However, I've never seen any real world data on that, so you may not get much more, if any, low end torque.

I had the MSD box mounted on the firewall of my Cuda, next to the ECU. When I swapped over to the Crane box, I built a small shelf under my dash, next to the radio, and mounted it there. When I installed the MSD box in my 5th Ave, I mounted it behind the drivers side kick panel. I've also heard of people mounting the boxes under the battery tray. My thoughts on mounting position are that heat causes problems with electronics, so mount it in a place that stays relatively cool, which is why I went under the dash with the Crane box - it may not be the coolest place in the car, but it's cooler than under the hood.

Summit has the MSD 6AL for $205, and then you would need to buy one of their RPM chip kits to set the rev limiter for another $28. The reason I changed boxes in the Cuda was to get a rev limiter (the 6 A that I had has no limiter), and I went with the Crane box because they have a dial adjuster for the rev limiter so you don't need to change chips if you want to adjust the rev limit. It's also digital, rather than the analog MSD 6AL box. Summit sells the Crane Hi-6 for $250.


1974 'Cuda 360/TKO 1990 Ram Van 1998 Neon
Re: MSD Ignition systems VS Mopar Performance.... [Re: Kern Dog] #949772
03/13/11 08:12 AM
03/13/11 08:12 AM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
R
RapidRobert Offline
Circle Track
RapidRobert  Offline
Circle Track
R

Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
I wouldn't think the ECU and dist pickup went out at the same time (what ECU). I'd start by taking off the coil neg pri wire and grounding the coil terminal (not the wire you removed)w a jumper wire w alligator clips on each end repeatedly like Morse Code, tap tap tap w ign key on & see if the coil secondary wire held 1/4" from a ground makes sparks & if so this tells you the coil/ballast & the their supporting wiring in the ign1 (run) circuit are good. Repeat the test as a helper turns the key to start but 1st take off the yellow "ign" wire from the starter relay to disable the starter just to avoid running the batt down and to elim the noise distraction. If it sparks the ign2 (crank) circuit is good. That only leaves the dist and the ECU and their supporting wiring. Seperate the dist 2 wire connector & ohm it (specs in archives) & check the reluctor gap & might pull it & spin it & reportedly (haven't checked one) it will generate 1 volt AC on your VOM if the pickup is good. For the ECU plug in a known good dist from your stash & w key on spin the shaft w your free hand & see if the coil to dist wire (dist end) held again 1/4" from ground kicks out good blue sparks. This tells you ALL is good in the hood ex the dist that's still in the eng. Can hide an ECU (or MSD) under the battery box & it'd be a bit away from the heat but still in the eng compartment. I'd suggest find/isolate the prob then make an informed decision & with your dist already curved I'd want to keep it. I have yet to run MSD stuff but they have a few reported reliability probs (but of course you only hear the bad news) and I like some of their gadget stuff (adj advance is one) & as said the multiple sparks may aid starting & a slight gain elsewhere but imnho you wont get your moneys worth EDIT meant to say starter relay not starter solenoid (for the ign2 crank test)

Last edited by RapidRobert; 03/13/11 01:37 PM.

live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
Re: MSD Ignition systems VS Mopar Performance.... [Re: RapidRobert] #949773
03/13/11 08:18 AM
03/13/11 08:18 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 21,050
Niles , Ohio
T
therocks Offline
oh wait.but hey.lets see.oh yeah.
therocks  Offline
oh wait.but hey.lets see.oh yeah.
T

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 21,050
Niles , Ohio
I have the6AL in my 440.My kid has the 6 that has the built in rev limiter.Both are flawless and he picked up at lest 3/10s when he changed from the MP in his 413.Price for dist and box is around 450 to 500.Id buy the 6 with the built in rev limiter if I had to buy another new box.Mine is 12 years old.Dist is super easy to set up also.Rocky


Chrysler Firepower
Re: MSD Ignition systems VS Mopar Performance.... [Re: Kern Dog] #949774
03/13/11 08:41 AM
03/13/11 08:41 AM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 8,020
Pangaea
B5 Bee Offline
master
B5 Bee  Offline
master

Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 8,020
Pangaea
I'd try to fix the MP stuff first. If it's right, the most aftermarket ignitions provides little gain on a street car.
If you do go with MSD, look at the Mallory stuff first, the Mallory units offer more features for less money. You can buy a digital Mallory with a rev limiter that dosen't need the RPM chips for less than the analog MSD6AL.

Re: MSD Ignition systems VS Mopar Performance.... [Re: Kern Dog] #949775
03/13/11 10:18 AM
03/13/11 10:18 AM
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 4,154
bethlehem pa
M
mikemee1331 Offline
master
mikemee1331  Offline
master
M

Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 4,154
bethlehem pa
i've run a MSD-6a on the street for about 15 years now with no problems. the only real advantage i've ever noticed over a good mopar unit is way easier starting. there is also a gas mileage increase but who pays attention to that

Re: MSD Ignition systems VS Mopar Performance.... [Re: Kern Dog] #949776
03/13/11 01:24 PM
03/13/11 01:24 PM
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 10,549
Rittman Ohio
fourgearsavoy Online tonguue
I Live Here
fourgearsavoy  Online Tonguue
I Live Here

Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 10,549
Rittman Ohio
I have the new Firecore distributor and an MSD 6AL with a Blaster SS coil sending the spark through Firecore 50 wires and couldn't be happier
This is hands down the BEST ignition system I have ever used
Gus


64 Plymouth Savoy
493 Indy EZ's by Nick at Compu-Flow
5-Speed Richmond faceplate Liberty box
Dana 60
Re: MSD Ignition systems VS Mopar Performance.... [Re: fourgearsavoy] #949777
03/13/11 01:40 PM
03/13/11 01:40 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
R
RapidRobert Offline
Circle Track
RapidRobert  Offline
Circle Track
R

Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
Quote:

with a Blaster SS coil sending the spark through Firecore 50 wires and couldn't be happier


Savoy is this a diff coil than the red blaster 2


live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
Re: MSD Ignition systems VS Mopar Performance.... [Re: RapidRobert] #949778
03/13/11 01:44 PM
03/13/11 01:44 PM
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 10,549
Rittman Ohio
fourgearsavoy Online tonguue
I Live Here
fourgearsavoy  Online Tonguue
I Live Here

Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 10,549
Rittman Ohio
Yes it's a small composite body kinda shaped like a barn and it fits in the palm of your hand.Supposed to be specially designed for the 6AL
Gus


64 Plymouth Savoy
493 Indy EZ's by Nick at Compu-Flow
5-Speed Richmond faceplate Liberty box
Dana 60
Re: MSD Ignition systems VS Mopar Performance.... [Re: fourgearsavoy] #949779
03/13/11 01:56 PM
03/13/11 01:56 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
R
RapidRobert Offline
Circle Track
RapidRobert  Offline
Circle Track
R

Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
Thanks Gus & now that you mention 6al a buddy has one laying around & wants a hundred for it so I might try it. Never paid attention to the Firecore wire hype in the beginning but they have gotten continual high praise (on here) for years now from many members so there's gotta b something to em. I'd always thought a solid core wire w name brand insulation would b as good (& simple) as it can get but maybe not & maybe more to it than that


live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
Re: MSD Ignition systems VS Mopar Performance.... [Re: RapidRobert] #949780
03/13/11 02:12 PM
03/13/11 02:12 PM
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 10,549
Rittman Ohio
fourgearsavoy Online tonguue
I Live Here
fourgearsavoy  Online Tonguue
I Live Here

Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 10,549
Rittman Ohio
Well if they are good enough for Hendrick Racing and Cory Mac's Top Fuel dragster they will be more than ample for my little ten second car
Gus


64 Plymouth Savoy
493 Indy EZ's by Nick at Compu-Flow
5-Speed Richmond faceplate Liberty box
Dana 60
Re: MSD Ignition systems VS Mopar Performance.... [Re: fourgearsavoy] #949781
03/13/11 02:23 PM
03/13/11 02:23 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
R
RapidRobert Offline
Circle Track
RapidRobert  Offline
Circle Track
R

Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
Quote:

Well if they are good enough for Hendrick Racing and Cory Mac's Top Fuel dragster they will be more than ample for my little ten second car
Gus


Sounds good enough for me


live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
Re: MSD Ignition systems VS Mopar Performance.... [Re: Kern Dog] #949782
03/13/11 02:25 PM
03/13/11 02:25 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 2,138
tucson az
F
frank Offline
top fuel
frank  Offline
top fuel
F

Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 2,138
tucson az
My 496 was dynod with MSD and MP. MSD made 3 more hp over the MP. I'm using MSD pro billet; with this unit there is no box to clutter up your eng compartment. What was most interesting was the MSD unit was much more stabe throughout the test. In other words the output was more consistant. This was evident on the dyno. I don't know if you will see it on the street. I beleive the MSD to be more reliable than the MP. FYI the MP distrubuter was a new unit; pulled it out of the box and installed in the engine. The curve on the MP unit was way wrong; full in was not until 3600 RPM. I understand dist need to be dialed in but for a "performance distributer" this one was pretty far off.

Re: MSD Ignition systems VS Mopar Performance.... [Re: Kern Dog] #949783
03/13/11 02:37 PM
03/13/11 02:37 PM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 27,347
Today? Who Knows?
1_WILD_RT Offline
Management Trainee
1_WILD_RT  Offline
Management Trainee

Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 27,347
Today? Who Knows?
In response to the earlier post about the MSD probably makes more torque down low but I've seen no evidence to back it up... Back in the early 80's I had buddy with a T/A that was kinda doggy down low, you had to slip the clutch quite a bit leaving a stop... I put my MSD on his car just to show him what effect it would have, I ran a 440-6 at the time & I felt the multi spark really made a huge difference with cleaning up the multi carb issues, practically any mixture would fire & burn completely... Anyway I added my MSD & we found you could literally dump the clutch at idle & the car would chug a couple times then drive away... It wouldn't die, the increase in bottom end torque was incredible... BTW That MSD it still on that T/A & it still works fine..


"The Armies of our ancestors were lucky, in that they were not trailed by a second army of pencil pushers."
Re: MSD Ignition systems VS Mopar Performance.... [Re: RapidRobert] #949784
03/13/11 02:43 PM
03/13/11 02:43 PM
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 4,154
bethlehem pa
M
mikemee1331 Offline
master
mikemee1331  Offline
master
M

Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 4,154
bethlehem pa
Quote:

Thanks Gus & now that you mention 6al a buddy has one laying around & wants a hundred for it so I might try it. Never paid attention to the Firecore wire hype in the beginning but they have gotten continual high praise (on here) for years now from many members so there's gotta b something to em. I'd always thought a solid core wire w name brand insulation would b as good (& simple) as it can get but maybe not & maybe more to it than that



if you do try the MSD, don't use the solid cores. you won't be able to time it.

Re: MSD Ignition systems VS Mopar Performance.... [Re: mikemee1331] #949785
03/13/11 03:00 PM
03/13/11 03:00 PM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 3,799
Arlington, Texas
B
bobby66 Offline
master
bobby66  Offline
master
B

Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 3,799
Arlington, Texas
My old MSD-C helped my Hemi idle better, and the plugs lasted much longer.

Re: MSD Ignition systems VS Mopar Performance.... [Re: mikemee1331] #949786
03/13/11 04:28 PM
03/13/11 04:28 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
R
RapidRobert Offline
Circle Track
RapidRobert  Offline
Circle Track
R

Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
Quote:

if you do try the MSD, don't use the solid cores. you won't be able to time it.


Thank you Michael, Good point & yeah you cant use em w Pertronix either


live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
Re: MSD Ignition systems VS Mopar Performance.... [Re: Evil Monkey] #949787
03/13/11 08:38 PM
03/13/11 08:38 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog Offline OP
Striving for excellence
Kern Dog  Offline OP
Striving for excellence

Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
Quote:



Summit has the MSD 6AL for $205, and then you would need to buy one of their RPM chip kits to set the rev limiter for another $28. I went with the Crane box because they have a dial adjuster for the rev limiter so you don't need to change chips if you want to adjust the rev limit. It's also digital, rather than the analog MSD 6AL box. Summit sells the Crane Hi-6 for $250.




So I gather that both of these systems require or allow the use of the stock distributor? I dont mind buying a new distributor. I'm not against spending a few bucks if I need to. I love this car and I really want to drive it more. Reliablity problems are making the car less enjoyable.

Re: MSD Ignition systems VS Mopar Performance.... [Re: Kern Dog] #949788
03/14/11 04:40 AM
03/14/11 04:40 AM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 357
Lake Elmo, MN
Evil Monkey Offline
enthusiast
Evil Monkey  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 357
Lake Elmo, MN
Quote:


So I gather that both of these systems require or allow the use of the stock distributor? I dont mind buying a new distributor. I'm not against spending a few bucks if I need to. I love this car and I really want to drive it more. Reliablity problems are making the car less enjoyable.




I'm not sure about an old points style distributor, but I know you can use a stock electronic ignition distributor with either one - I've had the same basic MP replacement distributor on my Cuda while using both boxes. If I remember correctly, they can be used with points distributors too, but I'm not positive about that.

I think the biggest reliability issue that can come up with these is killing them with heat, so as long as you're not installing the box close to your exhaust, or on top of your engine, you should be fine.


1974 'Cuda 360/TKO 1990 Ram Van 1998 Neon
Re: MSD Ignition systems VS Mopar Performance.... [Re: Kern Dog] #949789
03/14/11 09:37 AM
03/14/11 09:37 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
Mr.Yuck Offline
Not enough dumb comments...yet
Mr.Yuck  Offline
Not enough dumb comments...yet

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
I've run both and both work fine. If you are starting from scratch the MSD provides you with more options down the road. I swapped a working Orange box MP unit over to MSD in my old Coronet and didn't notice any gain in performace or drivability. Knock on wood I have not had the failures some have seen w/ the MP orange boxes.


[IMG]http://i66.tinypic.com/pui5j.jpg[/IMG]
Coming soon!!!!
Page 1 of 2 1 2






Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1