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Re: Push Rod Length
[Re: Wolfe440]
#947114
03/09/11 03:11 PM
03/09/11 03:11 PM
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ILL
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I have a 440 stroked to a 528, I am using Edelbrock Performer heads, the block deck was skimmed for squareness and the heads have not been been cut, their right out of the box. The cam is a hydraulic Comp Cams .564 lift. In this case should I get a push rod gauge and use it to determine my push rod length? Go to zero lash and .030 more for a final length?
Thanks,
RJ
You need to find the correct length by using a threaded adjustable push rod, Set it up with the cam on the base circle, rotate the cam and look at the rocker arm contact point to the valve stem tip. Adjust the push rod length to change or correct the contact point and geometry or even rocker bar shims may have to be used for push rod clearance or valve tip contact point. I think Hughes engines has a tech article on it through their web-site. Push rod length should never be assumed and they should never be ordered before it is time to put them in. Changes in length always need to be maded due to alot of varibles in cam base, installed tip height, rockers being used, etc.
logan426
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Re: Push Rod Length
[Re: MLR426]
#947116
03/09/11 03:41 PM
03/09/11 03:41 PM
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Ontario, Canada
Stanton
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Set it up with the cam on the base circle, rotate the cam and look at the rocker arm contact point to the valve stem tip. Adjust the push rod length to change or correct the contact point and geometry
This is a Mopar site, not chebby site.
On a Mopar the contact point is "fixed" by the height of the valve, the height of the shaft on the pedestal and the length of the rocker, NOTHING ELSE. If you need to change the contact point its gonna cost ya son! The pushrod length will merely provide the proper preload on a hydraulic cam or the proper lash and adjuster setting on a solid cam.
If it were a chebby with ball/studs then yes, the contact point can be adjusted by adjusting the rocker height and the appropriate length pushrod.
And while its nice to have the perfect length pushrod, if I had a set thet were 1/8" shorter than "perfect" with adjustable rockers I wouldn't be worrying about it in anything but a high dollar "every bit counts" motor.
As long as the cup doesn't contact the rocker at full lift, the pushrods don't rub the heads anywhere and there aren't a whole whack of adjuster threads exposed you should be fine.
Having said all that ... full power to the sheilds Scotty!
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Re: Push Rod Length
[Re: Wolfe440]
#947119
03/09/11 04:55 PM
03/09/11 04:55 PM
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JohnRR
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Quote:
The geometry for roller to valve stem looks real good.
I have a set of 440 source roller rockers, the push rods I am using with a 1/2 or up to 3/4 turn preload (starting zero lash with two or three threads on the adjuster showing under the rocker) are giving me a tapping rocker noise across both banks of rockers. No where near as loud as if I had lifters that were not pumped up, it just sounds like I don't have enough preload but I don't dare go any further than 3/4 turn. So now I'm wondering is it worth me visiting the concern with the push rod length and is gauging to see if I come up with a different length worth the effort?
I have large aluminum valve covers with plenty of clearance and I do not see any where the valve train is hitting on anything. Never had this problem before on other engines, this engine is a new build.
Its got me stumped.
What cam do you have ?
Also take a real close look at those source rockers , then throw them in the trash anyway. I have seen enough people post about failures with them, and then there is one member of this board that had one take a dump after 500 or so miles and trash his engine , but I have never seen him post about it.
The failure point is going to be the axle the roller tip rides on, it's going to break and then the rocker it self can contact the retainer and potentially unseat the valve locks, then you know what is going to happen next.
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Re: Push Rod Length
[Re: JohnRR]
#947124
03/09/11 06:16 PM
03/09/11 06:16 PM
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The Netherlands
BigBlockMopar
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Quote:
Also take a real close look at those source rockers , then throw them in the trash anyway. I have seen enough people post about failures with them, and then there is one member of this board that had one take a dump after 500 or so miles and trash his engine , but I have never seen him post about it.
Not saying these things are the best since sliced bacon, but where are all these failure pics of broken roller rockers and such they talk about?
I've searched this forum for about 10-15 minutes but couldn't find any pics or failure reports, other yours. I'm sure most Source-haters here would have a field day when stuff like this would happen everytime.
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Re: Push Rod Length
[Re: Stanton]
#947125
03/09/11 06:45 PM
03/09/11 06:45 PM
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JohnRR
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Here goes John-boy with his 440Source bashing AGAIN. He has no first-hand experience but will knock it anyway. He has no problem spending other people's money!
I'm not bashing the source, I'm pointing out what has been said by those who have lost engines because they tried to save a buck , trying to save the OP from losing money because of cheap offshore rockers, pull your head out of your ... when you get it out of there READ this , then tell me I'm wrong ... I feel bad for the guy but he brought this on himself.
Rocker carnage
Last edited by JohnRR; 03/09/11 07:04 PM.
running up my post count some more .
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Re: Push Rod Length
[Re: Stanton]
#947127
03/10/11 10:37 AM
03/10/11 10:37 AM
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Set it up with the cam on the base circle, rotate the cam and look at the rocker arm contact point to the valve stem tip. Adjust the push rod length to change or correct the contact point and geometry
This is a Mopar site, not chebby site.
On a Mopar the contact point is "fixed" by the height of the valve, the height of the shaft on the pedestal and the length of the rocker, NOTHING ELSE. If you need to change the contact point its gonna cost ya son! The pushrod length will merely provide the proper preload on a hydraulic cam or the proper lash and adjuster setting on a solid cam.
If it were a chebby with ball/studs then yes, the contact point can be adjusted by adjusting the rocker height and the appropriate length pushrod.
And while its nice to have the perfect length pushrod, if I had a set thet were 1/8" shorter than "perfect" with adjustable rockers I wouldn't be worrying about it in anything but a high dollar "every bit counts" motor.
As long as the cup doesn't contact the rocker at full lift, the pushrods don't rub the heads anywhere and there aren't a whole whack of adjuster threads exposed you should be fine.
Having said all that ... full power to the sheilds Scotty!
I should have worded it a little different, I was basically saying you need to get it to that point before you change the length of the push rod after adding rocker bars shims to correct tip contact point.
You should have read the rest of my post and also hi-lighted where I said to use rocker bar shims to change the contact point on the valve stem tip.
Always use the correct length push rod never a shorter one, your goal here is to correct the geometry on the rocker motion all the way through the cam cycle. Short push rods on adjustable valve trains cause many issues and one is it puts a trememdous side load on ball adjusters especially on small blocks.
Logan426
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Re: Push Rod Length
[Re: BigBlockMopar]
#947128
03/10/11 10:39 AM
03/10/11 10:39 AM
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JohnRR
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Quote:
That's just 1 topic... so, where's the rest of the 'pile'... 
Reminds me of an Indy rocker I have. Brandnew, never used, but already cracked.
Look for them yourself
Plus it's hard to find them when people that have failures will not post about them, but freely admit it in person like one very hi profile member of this board.
I'm just warning the OP of the potential , I HOPE that issue has been fixed for the sake of those that buy these in the future.
Nice QC from Indy , Companies love shipping their junk out of the country ... did you contact them for a replacement ?
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Re: Push Rod Length
[Re: JohnRR]
#947129
03/10/11 12:19 PM
03/10/11 12:19 PM
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BigBlockMopar
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Quote:
Look for them yourself
I tried. 10-15 minutes yesterday on Moparts. Just now 5 more minutes on Google. Only stuff that comes up is a roller LIFTER recall. Nothing about the rockers 'cept for that single topic you mentioned op DC.com. 
Warnings are good, but I like to see them backed by a good reason or enough 'bad' experiences from others.
Quote:
Nice QC from Indy , Companies love shipping their junk out of the country ... did you contact them for a replacement ?
I bought these rockers second hand from someone, without me knowing how long ago he bought them himself. That doesn't mean much ofcourse, new is new.
At the time I contacted Dwayne if he was fimilar with these kinda failure and just bought a new rocker through him.
I just hope the rest of them stay together better this one did.
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Re: Push Rod Length
[Re: BigBlockMopar]
#947130
03/10/11 01:42 PM
03/10/11 01:42 PM
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JohnRR
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Quote:
Look for them yourself
I tried. 10-15 minutes yesterday on Moparts.
You think you are going to find something like that HERE ???
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Re: Push Rod Length
[Re: JohnRR]
#947131
03/10/11 01:46 PM
03/10/11 01:46 PM
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Comp Xtreme cams are NOISY, they have fast ramps that's what makes them noisy. I just finished up my first build with a Comp XE cam, there are a number of factors that are coming into play on this but the owner of the engine says he is not worried about it, but he hasn't heard it yet, a solid would be quieter. 
John,
Just curious what was open load pressure on the springs used ?
logan426
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Re: Push Rod Length
[Re: Wolfe440]
#947133
03/10/11 02:36 PM
03/10/11 02:36 PM
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 8,853
Ontario, Canada
Stanton
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Quote:
I should have worded it a little different, I was basically saying you need to get it to that point before you change the length of the push rod after adding rocker bars shims to correct tip contact point.
You should have read the rest of my post and also hi-lighted where I said to use rocker bar shims to change the contact point on the valve stem tip.
Always use the correct length push rod never a shorter one, your goal here is to correct the geometry on the rocker motion all the way through the cam cycle. Short push rods on adjustable valve trains cause many issues and one is it puts a trememdous side load on ball adjusters especially on small blocks.
I read your whole post and I know what you're saying. However, trying to get perfect geometry on anything but an all out race motor is for the most part an effort in futility, particularly for anyone but a specialized Mopar engine builder with access to a wide variety of parts. To do it "right" you need the rocker to be perfect - anything else is just a band-aid. For example, let's say the contact point on the valve tip is to the outside and needs to be moved in. The only options here are a) swap rockers b) add lashcaps c) mill the pedestals. If the contact point is towards the inside, the options are a) swap rockers or b) add shims. The problem with shims is that they're consistent in thickness so the shafts don't seat properly in the pedestals once they're installed. You've solved one problem but now you have another. And since the perfect geometry is tagetted at the midpoint of lift, it all goes out the window if you switch to a bigger or smaller cam.
As for the pushrod length affecting side loads on the adjuster, again, in an all out race motor with a huge cam I'm in total agreement with you. But with a cam such as the OP is using and the subsequent rocker angle, the difference in the sideloads on the adjusters would be minimal and well within their operating parameters with a slightly shorter-than-perfect pushrod.
The bottom line is that if the OP has to order pushrods he may as well do it right and order the perfect length. All I'm saying is if he has a set or access to a set that's slightly shorter, they'll do just fine in his application.
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Re: Push Rod Length
[Re: Wolfe440]
#947138
03/10/11 05:37 PM
03/10/11 05:37 PM
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Did exactly that very procedure, a procedure I have done many times before with consistent success. I also have a second muscle head person assisting and we have done the procedure several times with the same results from 1/2 turn to 3/4 turn preload. No change, we're stumped.
I agree posted above my push rod length probably can have some fair tolerance for length as long as the geometry with the rocker is right and adjuster falls in its correct range.
Looking again at this sharp grade very short duration 564 high lift cam, could my lifters be skipping... catching air (per-say), I ponder would stronger springs keep them planted and reduce the rocker noise?
What is the open load of the springs that are in use ? Have they been rechecked with a gage against the spec they say they are ? On a xe274 I used 120 on the seat and close too 300 open load I believe and that is good for rpm up too 5,500.
logan426
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Re: Push Rod Length
[Re: MLR426]
#947139
03/10/11 06:08 PM
03/10/11 06:08 PM
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 217
New Port Richey, Florida
Wolfe440
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Did exactly that very procedure, a procedure I have done many times before with consistent success. I also have a second muscle head person assisting and we have done the procedure several times with the same results from 1/2 turn to 3/4 turn preload. No change, we're stumped.
I agree posted above my push rod length probably can have some fair tolerance for length as long as the geometry with the rocker is right and adjuster falls in its correct range.
Looking again at this sharp grade very short duration 564 high lift cam, could my lifters be skipping... catching air (per-say), I ponder would stronger springs keep them planted and reduce the rocker noise?
What is the open load of the springs that are in use ? Have they been rechecked with a gage against the spec they say they are ? On a xe274 I used 120 on the seat and close too 300 open load I believe and that is good for rpm up too 5,500.
logan426
The springs are what comes on the Edelbrock Performance heads, all I could find is the springs are 120-pounds seat load at the as-delivered installed height of 1.880 inches, and can handle up to .600-inch lift. I can't find an open load spec.
I also checked Comp Cams web site, I could not find a recommended spring for the cam. May have to call to get it. The heads are assembled new out of the box.
Last edited by wolfe440; 03/10/11 06:13 PM.
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Re: Push Rod Length
[Re: Stanton]
#947141
03/11/11 03:58 PM
03/11/11 03:58 PM
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 217
New Port Richey, Florida
Wolfe440
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Ok, I'm going to assume these are single springs. A Comp 911 has an installed height and seat pressure similar to yours ( 1.9 / 122 ). At lift close to what you're running they have 328 lbs of open pressure. They're only recommended for up to .500 lift.
The recommended spring for your cam is a 924 - dual spring. 1.9 inst height, 112 lbs on the seat, about 299 at your lift and recommended for only .525 lift (go figure!).
Since the recommended spring has even less open pressure than the other, I doubt that's the issue.
Although you should probably check what your springs are.
Yes they are single spring, and with a lot of searching the lift is advertised for these springs at 300lbs. Since the cam is 564 lift I am not in a range of spring that would give me confidence they can handle this cam.
I agree I first need to have my springs checked and not just assume because they came on Edelbrock Performance heads that their even the 120/300 springs they advertise.
I will run with this and see where it takes me. Will report back later.
Thanks for all the help! 
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Re: Push Rod Length
[Re: MLR426]
#947143
03/12/11 04:48 PM
03/12/11 04:48 PM
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New Port Richey, Florida
Wolfe440
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I'm using a 1.5 rocker. I was able to find the spec sheet on the cam, which is a miracle considering my filing is so disorganized  I could kick myself for not looking at it closer, yet I thought I had a conversation over this with someone?? Not even sure if we were discussing this motor, its been a year or so. Spec sheet says this cam calls for a dual spring set up with 112lb at seat and 355lb at open load. My existing springs are at least 50lbs less than the open load requirement @1.200 I can't seem to double verify if these cams are noisy even with the proper springs, yet I can very well see why it would be prone. Still not sure if I want to keep the cam itself, this is a street car and it needs to sound right. I wanted the high lift and short duration for idle quality, this car has A/C. I guess I will first go with the right springs, if the soft clacking gets at least 50% quieter I can probably live with it...I hope.
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Re: Push Rod Length
[Re: Stanton]
#947144
03/12/11 07:29 PM
03/12/11 07:29 PM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,698
NE Oklahoma
Von
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The recommended spring for your cam is a 924 - dual spring. 1.9 inst height, 112 lbs on the seat, about 299 at your lift and recommended for only .525 lift (go figure!).
How do you figure the 924 is only recommended for .525 lift?
By the Comp chart, set up at 1.900, the spring will handle .600 lift with ease. Probably a true .665 net lift???
Its not the right spring for his app...IMO...but would probably work....I guess if you kept the RPMs 6k or less it they would work.
72 RR, Pump gas 440, 452s, 3800 lbs, Corked, ET Radials,. 11.33@117.72.
Same car, bone stock 346s, 9.5 comp, baby solid. 12.24@110.
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Re: Push Rod Length
[Re: Von]
#947145
03/12/11 10:59 PM
03/12/11 10:59 PM
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Joined: Oct 2005
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Ontario, Canada
Stanton
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How do you figure the 924 is only recommended for .525 lift?
'cause in the Comp catalog on the line that says " Max. Rec. Lift" and in the column for the 924 spring it says .525 !!
Quote:
By the Comp chart, set up at 1.900, the spring will handle .600 lift with ease. Probably a true .665 net lift???
Sure, and when you buy a tablesaw there is a warning that says not to use it without the guard in place, but people do!
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Re: Push Rod Length
[Re: Stanton]
#947146
03/13/11 11:14 AM
03/13/11 11:14 AM
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NE Oklahoma
Von
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How do you figure the 924 is only recommended for .525 lift?
'cause in the Comp catalog on the line that says " Max. Rec. Lift" and in the column for the 924 spring it says .525 !!
Quote:
By the Comp chart, set up at 1.900, the spring will handle .600 lift with ease. Probably a true .665 net lift???
Sure, and when you buy a tablesaw there is a warning that says not to use it without the guard in place, but people do!
We set up a set of 924s last night......No reason they wont take .600 plus lift with ease. Seat and open psi were both a little heavier than what the spec chart shows also....not much but a few lbs.
72 RR, Pump gas 440, 452s, 3800 lbs, Corked, ET Radials,. 11.33@117.72.
Same car, bone stock 346s, 9.5 comp, baby solid. 12.24@110.
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Re: Push Rod Length
[Re: Von]
#947147
03/13/11 02:18 PM
03/13/11 02:18 PM
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Joined: Feb 2007
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New Port Richey, Florida
Wolfe440
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I'm doing more searching and finding agreement that these XE cams are noisy, correct springs or not. Quote: "FWIW, I called Comp Cam again and got a different tech. He told me pretty much the same thing that I would have some lifter noise with the XE cams." http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/archive/index.php/t-5955.htmlIf Comp Cams is saying "some lifter noise" we know their being conservative. Found a few Chebby guys complaining as well. One person posted Comp Cams told him on his XE hydraulic go preload from half to one full turn, should help reduce noise. Yea right, just keep cranking the preload down boys until its quiet... who cares if your valves don't even close...pfft*! 
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Re: Push Rod Length
[Re: RapidRobert]
#947149
03/13/11 03:39 PM
03/13/11 03:39 PM
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New Port Richey, Florida
Wolfe440
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In this case should I get a push rod gauge and use it to determine my push rod length? Go to zero lash and .030 more for a final length?
Not sure if .030" is right (I'm not a cam guy) but yeah that/1-1&1/2 threads/base circle. If you're handy w taps/dies I'd make or buy an adjustable pushrod & see what is the ideal length for your app & compare that figure to the ones you have & go from there that way you have as much info as possible to better make an informed decision. Also w the checker and a pair of light springs I would check the wipe pattern and Hughes' checks, again more info at your disposal
Well in fact for a test I have a set of Mancini hardened Docile factory style rockers and standard 3/8 9.315 pushrods, no adjustment offered of course. I took off the rollers and bolted them on and measured the preload of several plungers in the lifters with a dial indicator and they came in right at .035 which is right where they should be. So I ran it for a short time and nothing changes, still getting soft clacking.
Conclusion is that even when everything is right Comp Cams admits these cams are lifter noisy, I will second that. I'm clearly faced changing the cam if I want this to go away. Lot of other builds over the years so I got a few other cams on the shelf, probably don't have to buy a replacement, just sucks the motor is now in the car.
Then again I could get a louder exhaust system..
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