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Re: Push Rod Length
[Re: Wolfe440]
#947114
03/09/11 03:11 PM
03/09/11 03:11 PM
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 4,799
ILL
MLR426
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master
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 4,799
ILL
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Quote:
I have a 440 stroked to a 528, I am using Edelbrock Performer heads, the block deck was skimmed for squareness and the heads have not been been cut, their right out of the box. The cam is a hydraulic Comp Cams .564 lift. In this case should I get a push rod gauge and use it to determine my push rod length? Go to zero lash and .030 more for a final length?
Thanks,
RJ
You need to find the correct length by using a threaded adjustable push rod, Set it up with the cam on the base circle, rotate the cam and look at the rocker arm contact point to the valve stem tip. Adjust the push rod length to change or correct the contact point and geometry or even rocker bar shims may have to be used for push rod clearance or valve tip contact point. I think Hughes engines has a tech article on it through their web-site. Push rod length should never be assumed and they should never be ordered before it is time to put them in. Changes in length always need to be maded due to alot of varibles in cam base, installed tip height, rockers being used, etc.
logan426
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Re: Push Rod Length
[Re: MLR426]
#947116
03/09/11 03:41 PM
03/09/11 03:41 PM
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 8,861
Ontario, Canada
Stanton
Don't question me!
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Don't question me!
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 8,861
Ontario, Canada
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Quote:
Set it up with the cam on the base circle, rotate the cam and look at the rocker arm contact point to the valve stem tip. Adjust the push rod length to change or correct the contact point and geometry
This is a Mopar site, not chebby site.
On a Mopar the contact point is "fixed" by the height of the valve, the height of the shaft on the pedestal and the length of the rocker, NOTHING ELSE. If you need to change the contact point its gonna cost ya son! The pushrod length will merely provide the proper preload on a hydraulic cam or the proper lash and adjuster setting on a solid cam.
If it were a chebby with ball/studs then yes, the contact point can be adjusted by adjusting the rocker height and the appropriate length pushrod.
And while its nice to have the perfect length pushrod, if I had a set thet were 1/8" shorter than "perfect" with adjustable rockers I wouldn't be worrying about it in anything but a high dollar "every bit counts" motor.
As long as the cup doesn't contact the rocker at full lift, the pushrods don't rub the heads anywhere and there aren't a whole whack of adjuster threads exposed you should be fine.
Having said all that ... full power to the sheilds Scotty!
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Re: Push Rod Length
[Re: Wolfe440]
#947119
03/09/11 04:55 PM
03/09/11 04:55 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,974
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
I Win
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Quote:
The geometry for roller to valve stem looks real good.
I have a set of 440 source roller rockers, the push rods I am using with a 1/2 or up to 3/4 turn preload (starting zero lash with two or three threads on the adjuster showing under the rocker) are giving me a tapping rocker noise across both banks of rockers. No where near as loud as if I had lifters that were not pumped up, it just sounds like I don't have enough preload but I don't dare go any further than 3/4 turn. So now I'm wondering is it worth me visiting the concern with the push rod length and is gauging to see if I come up with a different length worth the effort?
I have large aluminum valve covers with plenty of clearance and I do not see any where the valve train is hitting on anything. Never had this problem before on other engines, this engine is a new build.
Its got me stumped.
What cam do you have ?
Also take a real close look at those source rockers , then throw them in the trash anyway. I have seen enough people post about failures with them, and then there is one member of this board that had one take a dump after 500 or so miles and trash his engine , but I have never seen him post about it.
The failure point is going to be the axle the roller tip rides on, it's going to break and then the rocker it self can contact the retainer and potentially unseat the valve locks, then you know what is going to happen next.
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Re: Push Rod Length
[Re: JohnRR]
#947124
03/09/11 06:16 PM
03/09/11 06:16 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,575
The Netherlands
BigBlockMopar
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,575
The Netherlands
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Quote:
Also take a real close look at those source rockers , then throw them in the trash anyway. I have seen enough people post about failures with them, and then there is one member of this board that had one take a dump after 500 or so miles and trash his engine , but I have never seen him post about it.
Not saying these things are the best since sliced bacon, but where are all these failure pics of broken roller rockers and such they talk about?
I've searched this forum for about 10-15 minutes but couldn't find any pics or failure reports, other yours. I'm sure most Source-haters here would have a field day when stuff like this would happen everytime.
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Re: Push Rod Length
[Re: Stanton]
#947125
03/09/11 06:45 PM
03/09/11 06:45 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,974
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
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U.S.S.A.
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Quote:
Here goes John-boy with his 440Source bashing AGAIN. He has no first-hand experience but will knock it anyway. He has no problem spending other people's money!
I'm not bashing the source, I'm pointing out what has been said by those who have lost engines because they tried to save a buck , trying to save the OP from losing money because of cheap offshore rockers, pull your head out of your ... when you get it out of there READ this , then tell me I'm wrong ... I feel bad for the guy but he brought this on himself.
Rocker carnage
Last edited by JohnRR; 03/09/11 07:04 PM.
running up my post count some more .
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Re: Push Rod Length
[Re: Stanton]
#947127
03/10/11 10:37 AM
03/10/11 10:37 AM
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 4,799
ILL
MLR426
master
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master
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 4,799
ILL
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Quote:
Quote:
Set it up with the cam on the base circle, rotate the cam and look at the rocker arm contact point to the valve stem tip. Adjust the push rod length to change or correct the contact point and geometry
This is a Mopar site, not chebby site.
On a Mopar the contact point is "fixed" by the height of the valve, the height of the shaft on the pedestal and the length of the rocker, NOTHING ELSE. If you need to change the contact point its gonna cost ya son! The pushrod length will merely provide the proper preload on a hydraulic cam or the proper lash and adjuster setting on a solid cam.
If it were a chebby with ball/studs then yes, the contact point can be adjusted by adjusting the rocker height and the appropriate length pushrod.
And while its nice to have the perfect length pushrod, if I had a set thet were 1/8" shorter than "perfect" with adjustable rockers I wouldn't be worrying about it in anything but a high dollar "every bit counts" motor.
As long as the cup doesn't contact the rocker at full lift, the pushrods don't rub the heads anywhere and there aren't a whole whack of adjuster threads exposed you should be fine.
Having said all that ... full power to the sheilds Scotty!
I should have worded it a little different, I was basically saying you need to get it to that point before you change the length of the push rod after adding rocker bars shims to correct tip contact point.
You should have read the rest of my post and also hi-lighted where I said to use rocker bar shims to change the contact point on the valve stem tip.
Always use the correct length push rod never a shorter one, your goal here is to correct the geometry on the rocker motion all the way through the cam cycle. Short push rods on adjustable valve trains cause many issues and one is it puts a trememdous side load on ball adjusters especially on small blocks.
Logan426
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Re: Push Rod Length
[Re: BigBlockMopar]
#947128
03/10/11 10:39 AM
03/10/11 10:39 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,974
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,974
U.S.S.A.
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Quote:
That's just 1 topic... so, where's the rest of the 'pile'... 
Reminds me of an Indy rocker I have. Brandnew, never used, but already cracked.
Look for them yourself
Plus it's hard to find them when people that have failures will not post about them, but freely admit it in person like one very hi profile member of this board.
I'm just warning the OP of the potential , I HOPE that issue has been fixed for the sake of those that buy these in the future.
Nice QC from Indy , Companies love shipping their junk out of the country ... did you contact them for a replacement ?
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Re: Push Rod Length
[Re: JohnRR]
#947129
03/10/11 12:19 PM
03/10/11 12:19 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,575
The Netherlands
BigBlockMopar
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,575
The Netherlands
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Quote:
Look for them yourself
I tried. 10-15 minutes yesterday on Moparts. Just now 5 more minutes on Google. Only stuff that comes up is a roller LIFTER recall. Nothing about the rockers 'cept for that single topic you mentioned op DC.com. 
Warnings are good, but I like to see them backed by a good reason or enough 'bad' experiences from others.
Quote:
Nice QC from Indy , Companies love shipping their junk out of the country ... did you contact them for a replacement ?
I bought these rockers second hand from someone, without me knowing how long ago he bought them himself. That doesn't mean much ofcourse, new is new.
At the time I contacted Dwayne if he was fimilar with these kinda failure and just bought a new rocker through him.
I just hope the rest of them stay together better this one did.
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Re: Push Rod Length
[Re: BigBlockMopar]
#947130
03/10/11 01:42 PM
03/10/11 01:42 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,974
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
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Quote:
Quote:
Look for them yourself
I tried. 10-15 minutes yesterday on Moparts.
You think you are going to find something like that HERE ???
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Re: Push Rod Length
[Re: JohnRR]
#947131
03/10/11 01:46 PM
03/10/11 01:46 PM
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 4,799
ILL
MLR426
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master
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 4,799
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Quote:
Comp Xtreme cams are NOISY, they have fast ramps that's what makes them noisy. I just finished up my first build with a Comp XE cam, there are a number of factors that are coming into play on this but the owner of the engine says he is not worried about it, but he hasn't heard it yet, a solid would be quieter. 
John,
Just curious what was open load pressure on the springs used ?
logan426
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