Deciding on Which Carb to go with.
#944871
03/06/11 10:26 PM
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1fastcuda
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I'm running a 70 cuda with a 340 4 speed I have a holley Carb 750 on it now. I have a LD340 1inch spacer.
Running X Heads Have a purple cam 280/ 484 108 centerline 50%
Have TRW Pistons H-Beam Rods Stock Cam I built the engine for the
street. with low end torque DONT HAVE THAT NOW. My Int settings are
18 and final set 35 total When i purchased the carb from a freind rebuilt it for me. Just never has the low end i would like. In fact it was very hard to spin tires at stop. Also running a 3/8 fuel line
Any Idea's Thanks Kevin this has been a 2 year problem.
Last edited by 1fastcuda; 04/02/11 02:42 PM.
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Re: What Carburetor should i use
[Re: 1fastcuda]
#944872
03/06/11 10:40 PM
03/06/11 10:40 PM
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RapidRobert
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I'm trying to remem the other thread, 3:55's right? your timing is in the ballpark. What's the actual CR or cranking compression if actual CR was not measured? Might borrow an eddy or holly 600 from a buddy for a day & see what transpires. Might adv the cam 4 deg & recheck intake (I remembered ) PV clearance after you adv it. I somewhat suspect not enough cyl psi rather than overcarbing
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Re: What Carburetor should i use
[Re: 1fastcuda]
#944876
03/06/11 11:35 PM
03/06/11 11:35 PM
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7e5dartsport
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one thing that helped me a lot when using the 484 years ago was to use lighter springs in the distributor and disconnecting the vaccuum advance. they are mopar performance p2932675 and cost less than 20 bucks. use one of the springs in the kit and retain the smallest of the 2 already in the distributor. also, tailoring the shooter sizes in the carburator helped a LOT too. btw the 750 holley is very well suited for the 340, be it double pumper or not. you just need a little bit of fine-tuning, thats all .good luck.
fully legal sounds the same as full illegal...
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Re: What Carburetor should i use
[Re: 7e5dartsport]
#944878
03/07/11 12:58 AM
03/07/11 12:58 AM
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RapidRobert
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When you bumped the initial up to 20 how did it perform (other than hard cranking)? when is your total in (what RPM where it wont advance anymore)?
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Re: What Carburetor should i use
[Re: terzmo]
#944881
03/07/11 10:27 AM
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RapidRobert
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IGN. use the "vac gauge method" to set initial then w that figure in hand shorten the slots to get 35 total then play w the springs & w them picked out set the vac adv (if used). More on the above later, I need to get to work, boss likes it when I show up on time. W the initial set if it still cranks labored, wire in a toggle sw for the ECU & w it off start cranking it w the key then close the sw. EDIT I'd dial in each subsystem of the dist in order then the carb and later (or right now) adv the cam 4 deg (recheck intake VP clearance if you think it's anyway near ~.125) then you'll need to go thru the dist again as the increased cyl psi will change your timing requirements then the carb again so yes might be for the better to adv it now which'll make the long block as good as it can get (as is)
Last edited by RapidRobert; 03/07/11 10:27 PM.
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Re: What Carburetor should i use
[Re: Mr.Yuck]
#944883
03/07/11 11:22 AM
03/07/11 11:22 AM
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Dean_Kuzluzski
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Here's what he said on his other thread......... "Mixture screws seem sluggish can turn them all the way in runs but not very good. It should stall out but does run. I had the carb rebuilt a year ago Cant drive it now live in north East." The most significant thing with the MP 284/484 cam ,if you really have that one, is the narrow LSA and the tuning required to get it to behave well. As mentioned, it needs gear, converter, more init. mech. advance, 36 degree total, proper cam phasing, proper intake/carb match and on and on. You haven't even started with the carb tuning. Get the distributor recurved FIRST! Many people blame the carb for a lazy off-idle stumble when they have never touched the distributor. The tune the carb. You may have to open the secondaries to drop the primaries closed more and get those idle mixture screws to be more sensitive. A HUGELY overlooked necessity that's easy to do but most just suggest a cam swap. Then play with pump squirter size and pump cams. A 650 is all you really need for that combo too. It would need the above tuning too. Become a carb guy, there's no voodoo once you take the mystery out. YES, there's better cams. BUT, they need tuning to your unique application too. Why not learn for free on your old cam.
Last edited by Dean_Kuzluzski; 03/07/11 11:24 AM.
R.I.P.- Gary "Coop" Davis 02/09/68-05/13/04
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Re: What Carburetor should i use
[Re: 1fastcuda]
#944885
03/07/11 08:13 PM
03/07/11 08:13 PM
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It's all about tuning.
A combo like that should have plenty of low end torque.
I had a 318 with 360 heads, .480 cam, headers, M1 single plane and 750 3310 Holley. I would boil the tires from a stop and bark 2nd hard even with really low compression and 3.23 gears.
Did you degree in the cam or slap it in there? Could be part of the problem..
Sounds like you're about ready to tear into the distributor. Make sure the weights are clean and function properly. A cheaper set of springs is the Mr. Gasket #925B springs. Usually go for $11.00.
Carbs can be picky. We had a brand new 750 3310 that some of the plating came off of and got lodged. Truck ran fine until we put about 500 miles on it then started acting up. Dipped it, blew out all the passages and it worked perfect.
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Re: What Carburetor should i use
[Re: 1fastcuda]
#944887
03/07/11 10:34 PM
03/07/11 10:34 PM
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Quote:
I Did not degree the cam people I new said since i wasn't racing it wouldn't need to do it.
Find new "cam people" because they're obviously amateur hacks! (yeah, I'll catch heat for that comment!)
When I built the 440 for my 'Cuda I degreed in the cam and it came up 8* retarded installed "straight up"! It was a Mopar Performance solid with Cloyes tru-roller chain. Now whether the cam was ground wrong or the gear was mis-stamped it really doesn't matter. It was WAY off!
Part of building an engine that runs well is to make sure every single sub-assembly is done properly. Degreeing a cam is part of that process.
I had a friend with a "supposedly" stronger .509 cammed 440, ported heads, deeper gears, more compression, 4 speed that was gonna spank me. His parts were better but assembly and attention to detail was lacking. Car was a pig and he was embarrassed to even bring it out. Mine ran 13.5's @104 with very mild combo. His ran 15.0's.
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Re: What Carburetor should i use
[Re: RapidRobert]
#944892
03/09/11 11:39 AM
03/09/11 11:39 AM
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Mini-starter, intial timing at 18-20 degrees with quick advance springs total advance by 2500rpm and 3.91 gears should help alot. My old Duster 340-4spd-4.10 MP508 combo was never a torque monster either. But I didn't care about sitting at a stop spinning the tires endlesssly.
1970 FE5 Duster 360/904/3.91's SOLD
1973 TB3 SpaceDuster 340/4spd/4.10's SOLD
Moparless for now but when the opportunity is right I'll have another one.
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Re: What Carburetor should i use
[Re: 1fastcuda]
#944905
03/10/11 10:21 PM
03/10/11 10:21 PM
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RapidRobert
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You'd want 35 WO vac. I was wondering why it did not ping w both of the MP light springs out of the cellophane pkg in there and you'd want to do the subsystmes in order & it'll take a fair amt of work but there's alot of gain to b had w timing
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Re: What Carburetor should i use
[Re: 1fastcuda]
#944908
03/11/11 04:55 PM
03/11/11 04:55 PM
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RapidRobert
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Dial back light and you subbed in both light springs? Keep vac adv unhooked/plugged for initial and total. You set your initial at 18 (18 on the knob/damper appearing at TDC right?) then when you run it up to where it wont advance anymore what is showing on the knob w dampener appearing at TDC?.
Last edited by RapidRobert; 03/12/11 12:08 AM.
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Re: What Carburetor should i use
[Re: 1fastcuda]
#944910
03/11/11 09:35 PM
03/11/11 09:35 PM
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RapidRobert
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that's correct how you checked it & you'd want 35 total for a good baseline so take the cap off & twist the rotor CW & see roughly how much travel you have in other words if it's hanging up & related but not to confuse the issue you have the 2 light springs in there now? EDIT what RPM did you check the initial at? I'm wondering if you are into the springs at idle
Last edited by RapidRobert; 03/11/11 09:59 PM.
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Re: What Carburetor should i use
[Re: RapidRobert]
#944911
03/11/11 10:51 PM
03/11/11 10:51 PM
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1fastcuda
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Hi
Just checked the rotor moved cw about 1/4 of a turn thats all hard to move.
My RPM at Idle was 800 rpm vac plugged the dial on the timing light was at 23 when it hit zero on damper,
Last edited by 1fastcuda; 03/22/11 11:05 AM.
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Re: What Carburetor should i use
[Re: 1fastcuda]
#944912
03/11/11 11:10 PM
03/11/11 11:10 PM
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RapidRobert
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describe the 1/4 turn? If the rotor is at 12 o'clock how far will it turn? Even w the heavy sp w the long loop still in there at that rpm, 3500 right? I'm still not grasping why only 5 deg of mech adv. What springs are in it?
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Re: What Carburetor should i use
[Re: 1fastcuda]
#944914
03/11/11 11:40 PM
03/11/11 11:40 PM
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RapidRobert
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I never noticed the actual ballpark distance on that but I'm thinking it should move more than 1/4". All you posted is correct. I'd loosen the dist clamp & turn the housing so you can see down past the 2 plates to check both slots & see if the pins are not hung up or the slots have not been welded up as you twist the rotor again & you'll have to turn the housing to 2 different places to check both slots and as you know you'll need to retime when your done. If nothing is obvious you may have to take off/out the reluctor/plates again. EDIT I checked my '67 "Glenns" manual & no 340 that early but every dist I saw has way more than 5 deg mechanical (slots) so we're missing something right in front of us
Last edited by RapidRobert; 03/12/11 12:19 AM.
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Re: What Carburetor should i use
[Re: 1fastcuda]
#944916
03/12/11 12:24 AM
03/12/11 12:24 AM
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RapidRobert
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We may need to lengthen the slots as we need to get to 35. The 23 as is, is killing the cyl psi
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Re: What Carburetor should i use
[Re: 1fastcuda]
#944918
03/12/11 12:58 AM
03/12/11 12:58 AM
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RapidRobert
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lets work w what we have. Want vac adv. look at the chart in the archives for how long to file the slots to & use a rattail file to elongate yours. If you are comfortable w 18 initial then want ~8.5 dist degrees to give 17 more at the crank. reportedly the archive chart is close but not dead on so go a bit less to start w and I'm sure the springs will need to be changed so you will be back in there and you can grind the "tips" of the weights to slow the curve after you get the total set in lieu of sourceing a heavier spring as 2 light MP ones MAY be too fast as is but the subsystems must b done in order. initial/total/springs/vac adv
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Re: What Carburetor should i use
[Re: 1fastcuda]
#944919
03/12/11 01:15 AM
03/12/11 01:15 AM
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Mattax
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Do you still have the distributor apart? In a Chrysler built distributor there is s number stamped near the advance slots (underneath). Multiply by two will be crankshaft degrees. Look at the slots and seee if someone welded or brazed up the slots.
With the distributor apart, but springs and weights installed, push on the wieght with the light spring as if its was moving out with centrificgal force. It should rotate the slot armature unil the loop of the long spring has no slack. There should still be a 1/3 to just a little bit of the slot left at that point. On some mopar high porformance distributors the heavy spring lets the advance continue very slowly preventing bounce and offseting any retard caused by stretching and twisting components. This is how the mechanical tach drive distributors were made. On a more run of the mill distributor, the heavy spring just shaped the advance curve.
Based on the specs you've given, everything else seems pretty good. I ran 340 with comcams HE280, 9 something compression and singleplane street dominator, and yes a 3310 on top. Now I'm running a similar engine with the LD340. 18 degrees is a good ballpark initial and 34 or so is a good initial target for 2800+ rpm. One thing I didnt notice was if you had a 4 speed or 727. I used a torque converter with 3000 stall. I've had that reduced to 2700 or so and its not as good - much harder to dial in the timing and carb especially with the 10% ethenal mixed gasoline. I'd say a high stall TC is required for your combo just as it was for mine (or higher gears, or , or or )
Cheap way is find used (in good shape) or parts store rebuild. Or if yours is in good shape then just finda few others so you can take parts out (and get the slots you want). The MP distributors used to be a good bang for the buck but not sure how that will work out with the Pertronix.
Last edited by Mattax; 03/12/11 10:51 AM.
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Re: What Carburetor should i use
[Re: 1fastcuda]
#944922
03/12/11 10:31 AM
03/12/11 10:31 AM
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Mattax
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Slots: Slots are often at a slight angle. Thats OK. Length: 15x 2 = 30 degrees of advance (distrinbutor turns at half the crank speed, I wrote it down backwords above) Weights clearance to body: Yup - its small. Just make sure there is no wobble that would let them hit!
OK: It sounds like you found the problem. If I understand correctly.. Are both of the springs are loose when the weights are pushed in? That is, when the pins rest against the begining of the slots, is either spring helping hold it in?
Even if the the light spring is providing a little bit of pressure, what may be happening is that by idle rpm, lets say 500 for simplicity, the mechanism has already advanced 25 degrees. Now there's only 5 degrees left in the slots. Setting the initial timing of 18 at idle, the distributor advance then tops out at 23 degrees. It probably hits 23 by 1500 rpm.
Take the other distributor apart and see if you can figure out why the springs in #1 dizzy are not coming into action as they should. Wrong springs for this application, or someone bent the loops, or something.
When set up correctly, the light spring should be strong enough to keep the weights from moving out unitl 700 - 800 rpm or even a little higher.
Exception is the old Direct Connection setup where they purposely used a super light spring with that long looped super heavy spring. Made it near impossible to set timing at idle. Timing was set at 'full' and everything at lower speed was just accepted for whatever it was.
You could use a similar approach to get around shortening the slots. But whether you do that or braze up/weld the slots, you first need to get both springs to help restrain the weights. When you think you have it figureed out, install and measure the timing at 100 or 250 rpm intervals all the way until it stops advancing. If its going about 2500 or so, feel free to make it 500 or 1000 rpm intervals. be careful!
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Re: What Carburetor should i use
[Re: 1fastcuda]
#944923
03/12/11 10:45 AM
03/12/11 10:45 AM
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RapidRobert
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Put the R19 plate in & the diff angle of the slots is normal & when you do measure how long the slots are on the 1 you take out
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Re: What Carburetor should i use
[Re: 1fastcuda]
#944924
03/12/11 10:46 AM
03/12/11 10:46 AM
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Mattax
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I *think* the advance mechanism, weights, springs are interechangabel with the electronic distributors. Exception will be the later Mopar Performance version made by Mallory. (see some pictures on my website).
Well if you're OK with a ECU box, you could go back to the electronic distributor. You can use a parts store ECU for more reliability - or at least keep it as back up for one of the Street MP ECUs. You're engine is such that a multi-spark, capacitive discharge ignition may be worth the expense. If you go with an MSD 6A, 6T, or 6C any of the distribuors you already have will work. You'll need a matching coil. Of course you'll still need to get the advance curve, so it only solves your current problem if you buy one of the more easily adjustable distributors.
edit: Its a time-money equation only you can answer. My inclination is to figure this out and get running.
Last edited by Mattax; 03/12/11 12:34 PM.
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Re: What Carburetor should i use
[Re: RapidRobert]
#944925
03/12/11 10:50 AM
03/12/11 10:50 AM
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Quote:
Put the R19 plate in & the diff angle of the slots is normal & when you do measure how long the slots are on the 1 you take out
That will only help IF the problem is that the R15 is shorter on the outside. Even then at best its only a partial solution.
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Re: What Carburetor should i use
[Re: Mattax]
#944926
03/12/11 11:50 AM
03/12/11 11:50 AM
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RapidRobert
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I think I may have it, Your idle is 800 and the double MP light springs start advancing at ~600 so I think you're already into the slots at idle & if this is correct no wonder only 5 deg of mech was left. How about trying this, use the orig OE light spring plus the orig OE light spring from the dist you found (2 OE light springs) plus keep your current plate. this'll start at ~900 which is above your 800 idle. set the initial back to where it was, 18 right? then run it up & see what your total is (vac adv plugged as always) and at what RPM (for reference) it maxes out at
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Re: What Carburetor should i use
[Re: 1fastcuda]
#944928
03/12/11 12:38 PM
03/12/11 12:38 PM
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RapidRobert
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Quote:
So your saying use the light springs that were in Dist
yes please. EDIT & when you're done, slow the idle a bit & see if it stays at 18, we need to b sure we're not into the mech curve (slots) at 800 idle
Last edited by RapidRobert; 03/12/11 12:46 PM.
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Re: What Carburetor should i use
[Re: RapidRobert]
#944930
03/12/11 01:07 PM
03/12/11 01:07 PM
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Quote:
Quote:
So your saying use the light springs that were in Dist
yes please. EDIT & when you're done, slow the idle a bit & see if it stays at 18, we need to b sure we're not into the mech curve (slots) at 800 idle
Its practically guarenteed to be into the mechanical advance. Even if by chance it is 18 at 800, it will change then when going into gear from neutral. There's no way around that. The advance plate has 30 degrees in it. By setting full timng to be 35 at 2500 or 3000 rpm, base timing will be 5 degree. If the springs are just right, the timing will advance 13 degree to be 18 at 800rpm. Shift into gear, rpm drops, and timing drops. This makes tuning in gear idle fuel/air mix a PIA at best.
Direct Connection (a) liked the easy start which comes with using this tpe of approach - advance at starter speeds is 5-10 degrees. (b) didn't care too much about good idle (c) used that super heavy long loop that almost stopped advance by itself so the overall slot length wasn't that important.
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Re: What Carburetor should i use
[Re: Mattax]
#944932
03/12/11 03:00 PM
03/12/11 03:00 PM
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RapidRobert
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Yes 30 crank deg from the plate is going to b way too much. I'm thinking you do not want to mess w brazing the slots shorter so I'd get the plate from FBO (should b cheap) that lets you limit the adv & want 8.5 in the dist (17 at crank) along w your 18 initial. I think if your idle sp is below where the curve starts you will b good and I'd actually snip 1 coil off of 1 end of each of the OE springs (snip 1 end only of each spring) which'd slightly raise the kick in point then w your needlenose pliers bend a new loop out like it was. You've gotta alot of info coming at ya , holler how it turns out & what the solution ends up being
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Re: What Carburetor should i use
[Re: 1fastcuda]
#944936
03/12/11 11:42 PM
03/12/11 11:42 PM
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RapidRobert
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starts at 25 & runs ok at 25 but wont start at 18 but runs ok at 18. Not sure where to go from here
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Re: What Carburetor should i use
[Re: 1fastcuda]
#944938
03/13/11 10:38 AM
03/13/11 10:38 AM
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You're shooting in the dark 'cause you didn't figure out what was going on inside. The only thing you changed by changing springs was the shape of the curve. My suggestion is either a) take the dizzy to the distributor machine and pay the man to work on it. b) Call FBO and have him send you a distributor. c) get some paper and pencil, measure, and figure out what is going on so you can make the changes needed. - since its on the car, start by measuring the curve with the timing light. With the car running, set the timing whereever it runs OK. Measure the timing at as low of an rpm as possible, then measure every 100 or 200 or even 250 rpm until it stops advancing. Use the throttle screw if you dont ahve a helper. Reset your idle speed and PLOT the curve on graph paper or a spreadsheet program while the engine is cooling down. - Take the distributor apart and move the weights to see when the springs engage. Check the pins in the slots for side play. Measure the starting points of the slots - compare with the other plate you have. Examine the springs to see if the lengths are different from the other distributor. Measure and write it down. - With the above, you can then figure out what is going on and what needs to be done. - You may still want to take it to the distributor shop because using two short loop springs in that slot take some time and experimentation to get the 18 at idle. It will never be a stable timing at idle for reasons I explained earlier. Also idle timing will be different than your initial as explained before. This will make more sense after you plot out the curve. - If you happen to have a super heavy long loop spring of just the right loop length, you may be able to use the 30 degree slots as is. This is still a lot of testing easier done on the machine. - the simple way to set up the distributor is to shorten or buy the slots needed for this motor. Knowing which side of the slots to shorten depends on the relation of the springs, weights and slots.
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Re: What Carburetor should i use
[Re: 1fastcuda]
#944941
03/19/11 11:11 PM
03/19/11 11:11 PM
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 47 ny usa
1fastcuda
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Well been working alot lately Had a chance to work somemore on the engine. I haven't received the new dist yet so I figure i'd look at what i had. Checked around the intake and noticed DS by #6 was leaking did not notice before. Pulled the intake of the car cleaned everything up put a straight edge on the intake and the heads. Everything good The old gaskets were metal type. Put a better set of gaskets on. and checked the carb while off floats needed adjustment. Carb still not right. But runs better my vacuum is now at 10in my int timing is 18 and my total is 37 My idle is 800rpm Starts better there is i reduse my int timimg say 14 can get 35 but hard starting. I thing with a better carb would solve my problems. Kevin
PS When I hooked the vaccuum gauge to the carb got a vaccuum reading of 5in on the venturi port.
Last edited by 1fastcuda; 03/19/11 11:50 PM.
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Re: What Carburetor should i use
[Re: 1fastcuda]
#944942
03/19/11 11:44 PM
03/19/11 11:44 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040 Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
Circle Track
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Circle Track
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
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Progress! Gonna be interesting to see what specs Don plugs into your dist. Do get the timing taken care of b 4 the carb
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: What Carburetor should i use
[Re: 1fastcuda]
#944944
03/20/11 01:34 AM
03/20/11 01:34 AM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040 Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
Circle Track
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Circle Track
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
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set the floats (slight dribble w you rock the car when it's idling)/check for blown power valve/jetting in the ballpark. Yes dist/timing 1st but dont want the carb way out of whack EDIT I'm assuming they're fouled from working the throttle (accel pump) alot as you've been working on this quite abit
Last edited by RapidRobert; 03/20/11 01:40 AM.
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: What Carburetor should i use
[Re: RapidRobert]
#944945
03/20/11 08:54 PM
03/20/11 08:54 PM
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 47 ny usa
1fastcuda
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OP
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Joined: Feb 2010
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Ok
Worked on the Carb today I pulled the carb off. A freind let me borrow a good card today. When I pulled mine off the top of the gasket was gas soaked. So I had another gasket to put on. Put my freinds on really didn't perform any better than mine This was a holley 750 double pumper way to much carb for my car. So I pulled it off and there was no gas on the gasket put mine back using same gasket Adjusted the floats and the Idle air screws actually ran pretty good. No hesitation at all My int at 18 vac 14 mechanical advance or total was around 40 stil not to good Hope its better with new carb from FPO.
Last edited by 1fastcuda; 03/22/11 11:07 AM.
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Re: What Carburetor should i use
[Re: 1fastcuda]
#944947
03/27/11 09:44 PM
03/27/11 09:44 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040 Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
Circle Track
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Circle Track
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
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set the initial at 18 & adj/file the slots (not famil w Dons dizzys) to get 34 total (both set w vac adv disconnected/plugged)
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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