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How much horsepower do you really need????
#94440
07/25/08 03:31 PM
07/25/08 03:31 PM
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 697
Central IL
70Sbird
OP
mopar
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OP
mopar
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 697
Central IL
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Ok just a hypothetical question here, how much horsepower do you really need for a relatively quick street car without sacrificing drivability/reliability or breaking the bank? I just trying to plan and budget for a project car I’m contemplating. It’s a 71 Demon. My thoughts are a new generation Hemi (5.7 or 6.1, kind of why I asking this question) and an overdrive automatic trans, with probably a 3.73 to a 3.91 rear gear. This car will be a cruiser with much more street than strip time. Drivability means more to me than outright performance. I’m thinking that about 400 hp would really be all that I would need without getting too exotic or expensive. Also for any A body guys out there that are running similar specs, any idea how fast would this combo be in the quarter? Any thoughts??????? By the way I already know that A: Too much HP is never enough B: Speed costs money son, how fast do you want to go? 
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Re: How much horsepower do you really need????
[Re: JF_Moparts]
#94444
07/25/08 04:39 PM
07/25/08 04:39 PM
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 697
Central IL
70Sbird
OP
mopar
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OP
mopar
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 697
Central IL
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I guess that I should add I'm almost completely settled on a new Hemi, with fuel injection, a/c, power steering and all of the "modern" convieniences. I've just seen a growing amount of variability with offerings for this engine, from a junkyard 5.7L truck engine to an $18,000 6.1L beast from a nationally recognized engine builder. Thanks for your input!  Scott
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Re: How much horsepower do you really need????
[Re: 70Sbird]
#94445
07/25/08 05:44 PM
07/25/08 05:44 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
Circle Track
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Circle Track
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
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as much as you can afford or until it scares you whichever comes 1st.
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: How much horsepower do you really need????
[Re: 70Sbird]
#94448
07/25/08 08:02 PM
07/25/08 08:02 PM
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,456
oklahoma
forphorty
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,456
oklahoma
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Re: How much horsepower do you really need????
[Re: forphorty]
#94449
07/25/08 08:38 PM
07/25/08 08:38 PM
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 10,645
Houston, Tx
AlexP
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 10,645
Houston, Tx
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A cam/headers 5.7 Hemi will do over 400 hp easily. Pull a low mileage 5.7, sell the tranny, get a truck front dressing (accessories), get the TTI headers and the XV intake, put a cam and run that thing...really basic with LOADS of room to grow. Go drive an LX car, and then imagine one with less drivetrain loss and 1000 lbs less weight. There are longblock cam and exhaust 5.7 cars knocking on high 12's @ 4000-4500 lbs... We are putting a stock shortblock 6.1 into my friends 67 Charger with a carb based cam with worked 5.7 heads....it will fly, and we will detail the process to show how much power these motors will make on a budget. https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/show...rue#Post4534456
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Re: How much horsepower do you really need????
[Re: 70Sbird]
#94450
07/25/08 09:51 PM
07/25/08 09:51 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 4,204
Fort Worth, TX
Clair_Davis
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 4,204
Fort Worth, TX
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I think any A-body + New Hemi is going to be a dynamite combo. I'm driving a 3600# Valiant with a low-squeeze 340 that makes an honest, untuned 300hp and 340lb-ft at the crank. With a 4-speed and 3.23 gears, it's a treat to drive - can spin the tires with ease, and has plenty of grunt. It's not the fastest car on the street at all, but it should crack in to the 13's. Add 100hp/lbft from the new Hemi and you're looking at 12's with virtually no down sides - except for initial cost, and complexity of fabbing up an injection system if you go that route.
IMHO, grunt makes the world go round. The HP will follow the torque if the breathing is there.
Clair
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Re: How much horsepower do you really need????
[Re: 70Sbird]
#94451
07/25/08 09:53 PM
07/25/08 09:53 PM
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,277
West Coast, USA
jbc426
master
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master
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,277
West Coast, USA
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Always build more than you need. Remember, that's why we have throttles on these motors.
1970 Plymouth 'Cuda #'s 440-6(block in storage)currently 493" 6 pack, Shaker, 5 speed Passon, 4.10's
1968 Plymouth Barracuda Convertible 408 Magnum EFI with 4 speed automatic overdrive, 3800 stall lock-up converter and 4.30's (closest thing to an automatic 5 speed going)
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Re: How much horsepower do you really need????
[Re: 70Sbird]
#94452
07/25/08 10:18 PM
07/25/08 10:18 PM
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Depens on what you can live with regarding street manners in terms of idle and bucking at cruise speed. If you drive it regularly in heavy traffic you will want to take this into consideration.
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Re: How much horsepower do you really need????
[Re: 451Mopar]
#94454
07/25/08 11:42 PM
07/25/08 11:42 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,421
Balt. Md
383man
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,421
Balt. Md
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It really depends on how fast of a street car you want ?? If you want to beat alot of these newer cars then you might want to shoot for 11's. I mean I saw a Mercedes at the track running 12.40's that I believe was the supercharged V8 deal. I figure my 63 makes about 500 hp at the flywheel to push it at 3700 lb's to mid 11's and it really is a very mild 440 by todays standards. But with an A-body the smallblock stroker is the ticket. Very easy to get 450 to 500 hp and that would put your A-body well into the 11's and still be very streetable as you can do it with 3.91's as that's what my son uses with the 400 in his Dart. Good luck , Ron
Last edited by 383man; 07/25/08 11:43 PM.
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Re: How much horsepower do you really need????
[Re: DemonKyle]
#94456
07/26/08 06:04 PM
07/26/08 06:04 PM
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 697
Central IL
70Sbird
OP
mopar
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OP
mopar
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 697
Central IL
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WOW! This is why I love MOPARTS. Lots of options here and lots of good feedback Thanks to all  I've been doing some additional reading on the 6.1 crate motor on a few other threads here and that sounds like a really good deal If the electronics all work out. While I'm at it what is all of you opinion on an OD automatic trans? plenty of options here as well from a beefed 727 and a Gear Vendors Overdrive, to a TCI 4 speed automatic to the Chrysler 5 speed auto that will require floor surgery in an A Body. any suggestions? 
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Re: How much horsepower do you really need????
[Re: DemonKyle]
#94458
07/26/08 06:28 PM
07/26/08 06:28 PM
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 697
Central IL
70Sbird
OP
mopar
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OP
mopar
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 697
Central IL
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Thats exactly my thoughts as well. steep gears to get it out of the hole and still cruise at 70 mph at around 2500 rpm! I'm just not sure which is the best option. I have not been in the market for a trans in about 15 years and things have changed!
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Re: How much horsepower do you really need????
[Re: nutso suave]
#94460
07/26/08 08:27 PM
07/26/08 08:27 PM
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 386
Maryland
reno340
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 386
Maryland
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Quote:
more power! grunt! grunt!
R-R-r
"There are only three real sports, Mountain climbing, Bull Fighting and Auto Racing. The rest are just games" - Earnest Hemmingway If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xQJtN1_6DU
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Re: How much horsepower do you really need????
[Re: DaytonaTurbo]
#94462
07/27/08 10:56 AM
07/27/08 10:56 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17,838
S.E. Michigan
ZIPPY
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17,838
S.E. Michigan
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499.74 at the rear wheels is a bit much for me, but I'm getting used to it....still haven't run at the strip in that configuration, hopefully soon....
Rich H.
Esse Quam Videri
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Re: How much horsepower do you really need????
[Re: hemibeep]
#94466
07/27/08 07:36 PM
07/27/08 07:36 PM
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 571
Beaverton, OR, USA
Alikazam
super gas
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super gas
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 571
Beaverton, OR, USA
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If it is really an option, I'd say to go with the 5 speed auto and do the necessary floor surgery. Can't beat taking ALL the modern conveniences and upgrades and stuffing them into a good old muscle car. Just my opinion  . And always remember, if its not fast enough, you can add nitrous and if it blows up you have an excuse to build it stronger to handle a supercharger or turbo hehe. Good luck.
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Re: How much horsepower do you really need????
[Re: moparmojo]
#94470
07/27/08 10:18 PM
07/27/08 10:18 PM
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Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 141
MN
mnguy55
member
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member
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 141
MN
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Quote:
It's a 500" 440source'd 440 with 513/533 voodoo cam and edelbrock heads. Somewhere around 9.2-9.3 comp ratio. Still need to pick a carb(if I don't go EFI) and probably new 3.55 gears. Hoping for 12s and probably have less in it than say a new 6.1 kit. Those new hemi's are nice but pricey. Plus a bit of a job to install, plus sourcing the right new parts.
I have thought about building another motor for my charger on and off for years because I cant bring myself to beat on my original one and I'd just like to try something different.
I am thinking something like what you described, a 500 stroker with eddelbrock heads. Here is a question. I know nothing about modified motors. I'd just like something that really goes but runs and sounds very stock. I'd definitely want to keep the original HP manifolds on it and the original intake manifold. I could live with a different carb as long as the original dual snorkel air cleaner fit. So, is it pointless to build a motor like this if you want to keep the manifolds on it, will they pretty much choke off any major power gains? The original motor in the car is a 70 440 4bbl. If you assume that the original motor had say 300 HP net how much could a mild cammed eddelbrock head 500 stroker make, assuming it had to run well on 91 octane?
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Re: How much horsepower do you really need????
[Re: mnguy55]
#94471
07/27/08 10:28 PM
07/27/08 10:28 PM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,312
Marine Corps Base Hawaii
DemonKyle
USMC LCPL
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USMC LCPL
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,312
Marine Corps Base Hawaii
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Quote:
Quote:
It's a 500" 440source'd 440 with 513/533 voodoo cam and edelbrock heads. Somewhere around 9.2-9.3 comp ratio. Still need to pick a carb(if I don't go EFI) and probably new 3.55 gears. Hoping for 12s and probably have less in it than say a new 6.1 kit. Those new hemi's are nice but pricey. Plus a bit of a job to install, plus sourcing the right new parts.
I have thought about building another motor for my charger on and off for years because I cant bring myself to beat on my original one and I'd just like to try something different.
I am thinking something like what you described, a 500 stroker with eddelbrock heads. Here is a question. I know nothing about modified motors. I'd just like something that really goes but runs and sounds very stock. I'd definitely want to keep the original HP manifolds on it and the original intake manifold. I could live with a different carb as long as the original dual snorkel air cleaner fit. So, is it pointless to build a motor like this if you want to keep the manifolds on it, will they pretty much choke off any major power gains? The original motor in the car is a 70 440 4bbl. If you assume that the original motor had say 300 HP net how much could a mild cammed eddelbrock head 500 stroker make, assuming it had to run well on 91 octane?
Well the stock intake and exhaust manifolds would definitely choke the thing for air, especially in a stroker.
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Re: How much horsepower do you really need????
[Re: mnguy55]
#94472
07/27/08 11:23 PM
07/27/08 11:23 PM
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
Quote:
It's a 500" 440source'd 440 with 513/533 voodoo cam and edelbrock heads. Somewhere around 9.2-9.3 comp ratio. Still need to pick a carb(if I don't go EFI) and probably new 3.55 gears. Hoping for 12s and probably have less in it than say a new 6.1 kit. Those new hemi's are nice but pricey. Plus a bit of a job to install, plus sourcing the right new parts.
I have thought about building another motor for my charger on and off for years because I cant bring myself to beat on my original one and I'd just like to try something different.
I am thinking something like what you described, a 500 stroker with eddelbrock heads. Here is a question. I know nothing about modified motors. I'd just like something that really goes but runs and sounds very stock. I'd definitely want to keep the original HP manifolds on it and the original intake manifold. I could live with a different carb as long as the original dual snorkel air cleaner fit. So, is it pointless to build a motor like this if you want to keep the manifolds on it, will they pretty much choke off any major power gains? The original motor in the car is a 70 440 4bbl. If you assume that the original motor had say 300 HP net how much could a mild cammed eddelbrock head 500 stroker make, assuming it had to run well on 91 octane?
I have a 1969 440 six pack Super Bee that has a new 523 stroker in it with factory exhaust manifolds. I built the car to somewhat F.A.S.T. standards as I like my cars to maintain a pretty much stock appearance. I have not yet had it to the track but it certainly "feels" like it will run high to mid 11s. The factory HP manifolds are not going to be a limiting factor for those kind of times.
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Re: How much horsepower do you really need????
#94473
07/28/08 12:56 AM
07/28/08 12:56 AM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 871
WA 98043
thecarfarmer
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 871
WA 98043
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Q: How much horsepower do I really need????
A: Just a bit more than I can afford.
Seriously, as soon as I think one thing will be good enough, I start thinking greedier.
This has led to several mid-project changes/backtracks/upgrades. Such as stroker kit, roller cam, tunnel ram, blah blah blah. So maybe I'm not the right guy to ask (not sensible). Or maybe I am the right guy to ask, since I've already been down that road...
IMHO, I'd be pretty bummed if my musclecar with a 5.7 or 6.1 swap got waxed by some late model thing with a couple bolt-ons. I'm speaking for myself and nobody else; I'm not saying "I'm right - you're wrong" Just telling how I'd feel and how I view stuff.
If it were me, I'd make sure that whatever motor I put in the ol' A-body had some performance upgrades, so that the only late model cars that'd take it would have to either have power adders or some serious wallet thrown at them.
-bill
Seduce the attractive, and charm the rest.
******
489 C.I.D., roller cam, aftermarket heads, tunnel ram, stock '54 Dodge rear axle assembly: which of these doesn't belong?
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Re: How much horsepower do you really need????
[Re: thecarfarmer]
#94474
07/28/08 06:34 AM
07/28/08 06:34 AM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 21,345
Marysville, O-H-I-O
70Cuda383
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 21,345
Marysville, O-H-I-O
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talking about power, gears, and streetability...my stroker made 505 on the dyno...add on all the accesories, full exhaust, drivetrain, engine compartment...I'm probably at around 380-390 to the wheels.
with a 28.5" tire, 3.21 gears and the TKO-600 w/.64OD 5th gear, I cannot use 5th gear until I'm going 70 or better, otherwise it surges and lugs as I'm cruising. 70mph in my set up is only around 2100-2200 rpm, and I definitly have too much gear. when I wound it out through the top of 4th gear, my speedo was maxed out at over 120. it got there pretty quick, but I definitly don't need to be going that fast especially in 4th gear with all of 5th left.
Something else to consider with a "long stroke, high torque motor" is that with a high gear set up, and a manual shift car, you're going to have to slip the heck out of the clutch to get going. City driving can sometimes be painful because of how much I have to slip the clutch when pulling away from a stop.
I just ordered up a set of 4.56s to help me with that problem though, hopefully now I can roll around at 1100 rpm or so in 1st gear, and actually be at a safe, slow, parking lot speed!
**Photobucket sucks**
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Re: How much horsepower do you really need????
[Re: DemonKyle]
#94476
07/28/08 07:39 AM
07/28/08 07:39 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,942
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,942
U.S.S.A.
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
It's a 500" 440source'd 440 with 513/533 voodoo cam and edelbrock heads. Somewhere around 9.2-9.3 comp ratio. Still need to pick a carb(if I don't go EFI) and probably new 3.55 gears. Hoping for 12s and probably have less in it than say a new 6.1 kit. Those new hemi's are nice but pricey. Plus a bit of a job to install, plus sourcing the right new parts.
I have thought about building another motor for my charger on and off for years because I cant bring myself to beat on my original one and I'd just like to try something different.
I am thinking something like what you described, a 500 stroker with eddelbrock heads. Here is a question. I know nothing about modified motors. I'd just like something that really goes but runs and sounds very stock. I'd definitely want to keep the original HP manifolds on it and the original intake manifold. I could live with a different carb as long as the original dual snorkel air cleaner fit. So, is it pointless to build a motor like this if you want to keep the manifolds on it, will they pretty much choke off any major power gains? The original motor in the car is a 70 440 4bbl. If you assume that the original motor had say 300 HP net how much could a mild cammed eddelbrock head 500 stroker make, assuming it had to run well on 91 octane?
Well the stock intake and exhaust manifolds would definitely choke the thing for air, especially in a stroker.
Don't tell that to a few guys racing FAST ...
 ....
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Re: How much horsepower do you really need????
[Re: mnguy55]
#94477
07/28/08 07:44 AM
07/28/08 07:44 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,942
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,942
U.S.S.A.
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Quote:
Quote:
I have a 1969 440 six pack Super Bee that has a new 523 stroker in it with factory exhaust manifolds. I built the car to somewhat F.A.S.T. standards as I like my cars to maintain a pretty much stock appearance. I have not yet had it to the track but it certainly "feels" like it will run high to mid 11s. The factory HP manifolds are not going to be a limiting factor for those kind of times.
That sounds like what I am interested in. Pretty much stock apearing but significant power upgrade. What heads, intake, compression and carb are you running?
To run on 91 octane you want to keep your compression in the 9.5 to 10.0 range with the alum heads .
Talk to fast68plymouth and/or DRAM about what you want and have them spec you a build and a CAM , you will not be disappointed .
fast68plymouth is the head porter/cam spec behind many of the fastest big block wedge headed mopars in FAST
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Re: How much horsepower do you really need????
#94478
07/28/08 09:23 AM
07/28/08 09:23 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,422
Warren, MI
71TA
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,422
Warren, MI
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Quote:
Depens on what you can live with regarding street manners in terms of idle and bucking at cruise speed. If you drive it regularly in heavy traffic you will want to take this into consideration.
I agree. I had a big mechanical and a single plane. NO FUN. MP528 and a dual plane on my 470" and it's a BUNCH more fun to drive (drove it to work today). Still probably near 600HP.
Could I use more? Yep. I've always wanted a blower car. The owner of an auto repair shop down the street from me drives a blown BB Chevlle with tubs and cage. NICE! I drove by one time while he was pulling in the driveway of his shop. When he lit em up it sceeeeered ME so bad I thought a jet was crashing near by - all the noise and vibration was INCREDIBLE.
Kinda like the how many licks to the center of a Toostie pop - the world may never know  But I'd say MORE than 600HP.
I lit em up for about 10 feet last night and my wife was so sacred by the NOISE she said if I ever do that again she'll never ride in my car again I'm gonna see if she's serious.
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Re: How much horsepower do you really need????
[Re: mnguy55]
#94479
07/28/08 01:36 PM
07/28/08 01:36 PM
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
I have a 1969 440 six pack Super Bee that has a new 523 stroker in it with factory exhaust manifolds. I built the car to somewhat F.A.S.T. standards as I like my cars to maintain a pretty much stock appearance. I have not yet had it to the track but it certainly "feels" like it will run high to mid 11s. The factory HP manifolds are not going to be a limiting factor for those kind of times.
That sounds like what I am interested in. Pretty much stock apearing but significant power upgrade. What heads, intake, compression and carb are you running?
The cam is a roller with 112 degree lobe seperation. Intake .022 valve lash hot .630 valve lift 284 duration Exhaust .024 .608 288, and after indexing the lift is 420/244 I and 405/252 E. The stock heads were ported and flowed. Of course it is balanced and blueprinted. For some reason the compression is not shown on the blueprint sheet, but it will run on punp premium. I have the stock original six pack intake and carbs with all of the Promax add ons. With all of the parts and labor I have around $11K in it including R&R.
Some of the winning F.A.S.T. guys are running up to 14:1 compression. We do not have F.A.S.T. racing here in the southwest and even if they did I would not go to those extremes. I want something that is still streetable for a 2 hour drive or more. My car is borderline as it has some around town surging due to the cam.
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Re: How much horsepower do you really need????
[Re: JohnRR]
#94480
07/28/08 02:04 PM
07/28/08 02:04 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 21,318
Manitoba, Canada
DaytonaTurbo
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 21,318
Manitoba, Canada
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Yeah but don't forget how much dough the FAST guys are dropping into having stock manifolds ported, or exrude honed or whatever they call it. The 6 pack intake is a good one for making HP, and you can put down some nice #'s with stock HP manifolds. With a stock 4bbl intake, not so much. Can still make some power, but it is way more restrictive than a 6-pack intake, which flow and performance wise keeps up with the modern street/strip intakes. With the right cam selection you can do a lot with the stock HP manifolds, but you would still gain more if changing to headers.
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Re: How much horsepower do you really need????
[Re: DaytonaTurbo]
#94481
07/28/08 04:35 PM
07/28/08 04:35 PM
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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My engine builder said that extrude honing the exhaust manifolds would probably not have any effect on my engines performance/speed/time. It may be something that the top F.A.S.T. guys are doing looking for any millisecond advantage, but certainly not worht the money that it cost for anyone else.
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Re: How much horsepower do you really need????
#94482
07/28/08 05:58 PM
07/28/08 05:58 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,422
Warren, MI
71TA
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,422
Warren, MI
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Quote:
My engine builder said that extrude honing the exhaust manifolds would probably not have any effect on my engines performance/speed/time. It may be something that the top F.A.S.T. guys are doing looking for any millisecond advantage, but certainly not worht the money that it cost for anyone else.
But it looks cool! I've seen those done.
When driving gto/from Carlisle I see the ExtrudeHuone company off the turnpike by Pittsburg I think.
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Re: How much horsepower do you really need????
[Re: 71TA]
#94483
07/28/08 06:49 PM
07/28/08 06:49 PM
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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What is it that you think looks cool, it is all inside of the manifolds?
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