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Alternator..how many amps can I run
#912072
01/23/11 10:29 PM
01/23/11 10:29 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,679
Mansfield,Ohio
moparrulzzz
OP
top fuel
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OP
top fuel
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,679
Mansfield,Ohio
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Can I run a 80 amp alternator without modifying the electrical system on my '68 Coronet? Only elec changes I have in system will be a elec fuel pump, and Maybe?? a secret audio stereo in the future. I was looking at this chrome unit from Mancini. Would I be better off going to a internal regulator or stay with the external? pro's /cons? I need to start getting some of this small stuff fgured out so I will be ready when the motor comes home!!  Mancini
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Re: Alternator..how many amps can I run
[Re: moparrulzzz]
#912075
01/24/11 12:32 AM
01/24/11 12:32 AM
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Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 606
Montana
Yancy Derringer
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 606
Montana
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Quote:
I do have the ammeter bypassed under the dash.
It's not just the ammeter, it's the current going through the bulkhead connector. Since you have already "dumped" the ammeter, you should add a jumper wire--nice big one line no8 or so--from the alternator output stud to the battery post on the starter relay.
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Re: Alternator..how many amps can I run
[Re: moparrulzzz]
#912077
01/24/11 01:37 AM
01/24/11 01:37 AM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,664
IN
ahy
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,664
IN
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Quote:
I have all new wiring in my car now. I do have the ammeter bypassed under the dash. The terminals are bolted together and wrapped tightly in electrical tape.
The reason I was thinking about the 80 was I don't know if electric fans would be in the future or not.
If I stayed with the 60 would I have the dimming of lights and so forth?
I don't have the original regulator but I am sure they are easy enough to get!
So I guess the 80 would be overkill??!!
If you already bypassed the ammeter, adding the 80 amp alternator with a jumper wire from the alternator to the battery stud on the relay would be a good upgrade. Output at idle should be better than what you have... although even uprated versions of the traditional MOPAR alternator aren't the best at idle.
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Re: Alternator..how many amps can I run
[Re: ahy]
#912078
01/24/11 05:04 PM
01/24/11 05:04 PM
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,095
Valencia, España
NachoRT74
master
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master
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,095
Valencia, España
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propperly done you don't need to bypass the ammeter and add allmost any alt you want...
you can run a 1000 amps alt if you want but the output will be just what car demands.
the closer to the demand you can feed at iddle, the safer you'll get all the charging system even with an ammeter.
once again, as far is propperly wired.
With a Charger born in Chrysler assembly plant in Valencia, Venezuela
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Re: Alternator..how many amps can I run
[Re: NachoRT74]
#912080
01/24/11 08:25 PM
01/24/11 08:25 PM
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Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 606
Montana
Yancy Derringer
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 606
Montana
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Quote:
propperly done you don't need to bypass the ammeter and add allmost any alt you want...
you can run a 1000 amps alt if you want but the output will be just what car demands.
the closer to the demand you can feed at iddle, the safer you'll get all the charging system even with an ammeter.
once again, as far is propperly wired.
SORRY BUT THIS JUST AIN'T TRUE
All that needs to happen with your so called "1000 amp alternator"--or even a 100 amp is for the owner to
FORGET AND LEAVE THE LIGHTS ON when parked for say, an hour. The owner comes back, starts the car, and wants to drive off.
NOW YOU HAVE A CONDITION where an extreme amount of current is going through the ammeter and bulkhead connections
I used to have one of the big frame 100+ mopar alternators on my 340 Landcruiser, and a 0-100A S&W meter. I had a Worn Wench and two batteries. After a little "wenchin" that alternator would BURY the 100A meter until it caught up.
THIS SAME SITUATION in a Dodge pickup flat melted the stock ammeter and the plastic dash around it
I guess some of you have some fantasy about "feathering the gas" until the battery charges up. I don't
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Re: Alternator..how many amps can I run
[Re: moparrulzzz]
#912083
01/24/11 11:57 PM
01/24/11 11:57 PM
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Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 3,374
Rancho Cordova, CA
Exit1965
master
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master
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 3,374
Rancho Cordova, CA
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On my Dart I used a Napa alternator, it's a mopar "78 amp" unit from a Volare I think, here is a pic showing the part # and the RPM/output relationship. The RPMs there are alternator rpms. I don't recall the ratios, but I think once the engine reaches about 1700-1800 RPM (if memory serves), the alternator is spinning enough to churn out all 79 amps. The mods I did to run this are: * bypass the amp gauge * 8 gauge wire from alternator to starter relay with a fusible link in it * ground one of the outputs on the alternator to the tab on the back (not sure if that's the proper terminology, but there is a tab just sitting there for this purpose). I point this out because it can be a cheaper alternative if you don't care about chrome, and don't mind an extra groove in the pulley. 
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Re: Alternator..how many amps can I run
[Re: Yancy Derringer]
#912084
01/25/11 03:16 AM
01/25/11 03:16 AM
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,095
Valencia, España
NachoRT74
master
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master
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,095
Valencia, España
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Quote:
SORRY BUT THIS JUST AIN'T TRUE
All that needs to happen with your so called "1000 amp alternator"--or even a 100 amp is for the owner to
FORGET AND LEAVE THE LIGHTS ON when parked for say, an hour. The owner comes back, starts the car, and wants to drive off.
DEPEDING ON BATT RESERVE TIME OR CRANKING AMP, WHATEVER YOU CALLS...
bigger the batt more danger to come true that condition. That has been a tipical mistake installing bigger batts being an ammeter system.
of course everything needs to be rightly handled... AAAND, every accesory needs to be right hooked on ALT SIDE, not like every body makes, taking the power from batt side.
however IS TRUE you can't charge the batt back on car giving gas. If you are at home or close to a shop, get a charge there. If you are on the road, you can make it at iddle OR a temporally wire up to batt... depending also on amp output from alt
some good readings:
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,62772.0.html
on one of them it is explained what RapidRobert said about parallel wires
With a Charger born in Chrysler assembly plant in Valencia, Venezuela
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Re: Alternator..how many amps can I run
[Re: NachoRT74]
#912085
01/25/11 03:59 AM
01/25/11 03:59 AM
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Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 606
Montana
Yancy Derringer
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 606
Montana
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Quote:
Quote:
SORRY BUT THIS JUST AIN'T TRUE
All that needs to happen with your so called "1000 amp alternator"--or even a 100 amp is for the owner to
FORGET AND LEAVE THE LIGHTS ON when parked for say, an hour. The owner comes back, starts the car, and wants to drive off.
DEPEDING ON BATT RESERVE TIME OR CRANKING AMP, WHATEVER YOU CALLS...
bigger the batt more danger to come true that condition. That has been a tipical mistake installing bigger batts being an ammeter system.
of course everything needs to be rightly handled... AAAND, every accesory needs to be right hooked on ALT SIDE, not like every body makes, taking the power from batt side.
however IS TRUE you can't charge the batt back on car giving gas. If you are at home or close to a shop, get a charge there. If you are on the road, you can make it at iddle OR a temporally wire up to batt... depending also on amp output from alt
some good readings:
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,62772.0.html
on one of them it is explained what RapidRobert said about parallel wires
NO NO NO NO NO NO NOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Installing a small battery to PREVENT wiring/ bulkhead ammeter failure is WRONG THINKING.
And ALSO wrong thinking is charging the car at the shop just because the wiring won't handle it!!!
This is SIMPLE
If you need more amperage for fans, stereo, etc, you need MORE ALTERNATOR
and if you need these accessories and "more alternator" then you need
BIGGER WIRING
BYPASS THE BULKHEAD
ELIMINATE -or modify- the ammeter circuit.
My old '70 gave me fits "back in the day" and it only had the so called 60? 65? amp optional alternator. Started to melt the bulkhead connection and the dash up at the ammeter.
YOU CAN NOT go around building charging systems in such a way that you build traps into them
The best thing most people could do is modify the bulkhead and run LARGER gauge wires "straight through", and just bite the bullet and either do without an ammeter, or else convert to a "shunt" unit---there are a couple of people converting them
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Re: Alternator..how many amps can I run
[Re: Yancy Derringer]
#912086
01/25/11 11:24 AM
01/25/11 11:24 AM
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,095
Valencia, España
NachoRT74
master
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master
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,095
Valencia, España
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LOL
ok, I will tell my car I have been wrong in last 6 years and my ammeter is wrong too, when I have kept it and barelly sense some power going throught because I balanced the charging system with a 78 amps alt, hooking every relay to the ammeter stud itself on alt side ( I have 6 relays attached to the ammeter, however max will be working will be 3 at the same time ), and will go with a 100 amps tuff stuff alt still keeping my ammeter to kill it faster
LOL
Come on! trust in somebody what already did it and is using it on a DAILY DRIVER... My ammeter NEVER gets heat. You can touch the studs on back and not even gets warm ( and I use A/C every day )
you can use a BIG BATT, as far you KNOW how to drive it
Not saying small batt is right or wrong, but saying you ned a bigger alternator than batt. You need to increase both sides proportionally, but if you upgrade just one side, better do it on a bigger alt first
A bigger alt doesn't mean 100 or more amps output. It means better quality at iddle as posible, but is logical a 100 amps alt will get you better juice at iddle. If you can get a 80 amps alt ( or even 60 amps but that's ask too much ) able to feed 45/55 amps at iddle if car demands for it you will be able to never use the batt to feed the car ( just cranking ), and ammeter WON'T MOVE EVER ( or barelly ) what will mean, power is not going through, so never will get heat.
The right selection of the alt is VERY IMPORTANT. has been prooved Delta kind windings are better charge quality that Y windings alt. I don't have the real numbers but is true that a 80 Delta kind alt will get you better power at iddle than a 100 amps Y winding kind. Just that I love stockish look and there is not exist a Delta kind alt on stock housing, If it was the chance to get an internal upgrade on stator coil to Delta windings, I would change just the stator on my alt.
BUT allways will need to work on the weakness of the bulkhead, and thats allways true. No need to get rid off the original terminals and wires, but just get parallel system to handle the extra load safer.
MaMopar did it on bigger than 60 amps cars. They never went through bulkhead, but through firewall.
However...
Still keeping bulkhead terminals FIX THE IDDLE CHARGE OUTPUT and you will be allmost done, EVEN BULKHEAD terminals on your stock system WILL LAST LONG! IT IS NOTICEABLE.
PEAKS FOR LONG TIME due the low alt capacity at iddle is what killed our systems.
KEEP SAFE THE AMMETER STUDS HEALTH... tight and clean.
try it! Trust me. Don't be irracional, Don't be a robot what makes whatever it reads because everybody says that without an analisys of whay it does happens, just an automatical procedure.
Of course bypass the ammeter and run a wire directly to Starter relay will get everything better too, BUT I got an ammeter on my car from factory and I love to kept working. Is part of a resto job doesn't ? keep everything working like factory did. I don't want an ornament on my cluster. If I can keep it like came from factory, and safe will keep it working!!!
Nothing like show to the ppl the stock system works like a champ.
Beside that I trust more on an ammeter than a voltimeter. On an alt fail I got around 7 years ago, got 18 volts but discharge... Rotor was shorting. If I was trust on voltimeter, I was though I was overcharging and kept driving... untill my battery death due no more juice to get from it
With a Charger born in Chrysler assembly plant in Valencia, Venezuela
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Re: Alternator..how many amps can I run
[Re: Exit1965]
#912087
01/25/11 01:14 PM
01/25/11 01:14 PM
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,277
West Coast, USA
jbc426
master
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master
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,277
West Coast, USA
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Quote:
On my Dart I used a Napa alternator, it's a mopar "78 amp" unit from a Volare I think, here is a pic showing the part # and the RPM/output relationship. The RPMs there are alternator rpms. I don't recall the ratios, but I think once the engine reaches about 1700-1800 RPM (if memory serves), the alternator is spinning enough to churn out all 79 amps.
Cool chart. Too bad we don't have alternator output charts with engine rpms versus output for all the original Mopar, rebuilt Powermaster, Denso and CS140 alternators. All but the CS140 are notoriously weak at and just above engine idle rpm.
The CS140 altenator I ended up bolting right into my 1970 puts out up to 115 amps at low idle and potentially up to 200 amps above a fast idle with a nominal voltage of 14.4 volts. None of the other popular conversions mentioned even close to half this amount of idle output. Period!
Why did I install so much power? I added several power hungry electrical add-ons and needed the increased idle output, A/C, electric fuel pump, twin fans, power windows, headlight upgrades, line lock and MSD ignition. It's all fed from the engine compartment power distribution lugs, amp gauge is bypassed and the bulkhead modified. With everything on, it still has 14.4 volts at idle. Sweet!
1970 Plymouth 'Cuda #'s 440-6(block in storage)currently 493" 6 pack, Shaker, 5 speed Passon, 4.10's
1968 Plymouth Barracuda Convertible 408 Magnum EFI with 4 speed automatic overdrive, 3800 stall lock-up converter and 4.30's (closest thing to an automatic 5 speed going)
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Re: Alternator..how many amps can I run
[Re: jbc426]
#912088
01/25/11 02:00 PM
01/25/11 02:00 PM
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,095
Valencia, España
NachoRT74
master
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master
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,095
Valencia, España
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Quote:
Quote:
On my Dart I used a Napa alternator, it's a mopar "78 amp" unit from a Volare I think, here is a pic showing the part # and the RPM/output relationship. The RPMs there are alternator rpms. I don't recall the ratios, but I think once the engine reaches about 1700-1800 RPM (if memory serves), the alternator is spinning enough to churn out all 79 amps.
Cool chart. Too bad we don't have alternator output charts with engine rpms versus output for all the original Mopar, rebuilt Powermaster, Denso and CS140 alternators. All but the CS140 are notoriously weak at and just above engine idle rpm.
Mopar pulley with that alt is around 1.9 faster so you have now the conversion for it... around double
The CS140 altenator I ended up bolting right into my 1970 puts out up to 115 amps at low idle and potentially up to 200 amps above a fast idle with a nominal voltage of 14.4 volts. None of the other popular conversions mentioned even close to half this amount of idle output. Period!
is true... CS alts are more powerfull, specially at low RPMs, thats is because they are Delta winding kind stator, beside also wider, as I stated
Why did I install so much power? I added several power hungry electrical add-ons and needed the increased idle output, A/C, electric fuel pump, twin fans, power windows, headlight upgrades, line lock and MSD ignition. It's all fed from the engine compartment power distribution lugs, amp gauge is bypassed and the bulkhead modified. With everything on, it still has 14.4 volts at idle. Sweet!
if you hook correctly everything on alt side, no need for bypass ammeter HOWEVER on a highly equiped car would it be dangerous if alt gets damaged, so then the batt will feed everything through ammeter... assuming, once again everything is correctly hoooked on alt side. BUT need to note on a broken alt incident, ANYWAY it is recomended, ammeter or not, cut all the non needed equippment until get it fixed, so we could be on a similar deal with or without ammeter. Of course an electric fan setup can't be cut.
not saying one thing is better than the other or more true than the other one, just saying if you understand the system and you know how to handle, You can keep the original system on a quite stockish car... at the end is your choice!!! just learn and decide, and match your setup accordingly whith your REAL needs.
Power windows, line locks are something you don't need to consider since they are not constant power succkers, just at one moment. MSD doesn't sucks power like a whale sucks plantok either. Just ELECTRIC FANS, A/C ( just because the blower, so heater too ) and halogen/HID headlamps are the "constant" power suckers. Big powerplant stereos too. Rest is something you can forgett.
You can choose also change to a SHUNTED system, if wish an ammeter.
Will be great to get at least 60-80 amps ammeters though, like police cars got before the shunted kind ammeters
Just check all the topics I linked on the link I posted. Some of them links out to this same board. Very nice discussions
With a Charger born in Chrysler assembly plant in Valencia, Venezuela
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Re: Alternator..how many amps can I run
[Re: NachoRT74]
#912089
01/25/11 05:20 PM
01/25/11 05:20 PM
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Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 606
Montana
Yancy Derringer
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 606
Montana
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Quote:
LOL..........ok, I will tell my car I have been wrong
I'm done arguing with a brick wall.
I've been in and out of electrics and electronics all my life. I've run considerably large radio systems in vehicles for many years, and I have a good understanding of what works and what does not.
This "battery--alternator balance" is nonsense.
FURTHERMORE if you are going to hook heavy loads up as you say, THEY STILL MUST RUN THROUGH THE AMMETER (and the bulkhead) if the vehicle is off, or running slow.
I'm done here. I've said it, and cannot convince this character that there is no other way.
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Re: Alternator..how many amps can I run
[Re: Yancy Derringer]
#912090
01/25/11 05:32 PM
01/25/11 05:32 PM
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,095
Valencia, España
NachoRT74
master
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master
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,095
Valencia, España
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LOL... not a brick wall buddy, just exposing my experience LOL... have you checked this ? http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,33574.0.htmlis one of the links exposed on the first link I posted check it and tell me what you think... Quote:
FURTHERMORE if you are going to hook heavy loads up as you say, THEY STILL MUST RUN THROUGH THE AMMETER (and the bulkhead) if the vehicle is off, or running slow.
true if is off and everything is hooked on alt side, so power coming from batt through ammeter. On this case, not the electric fans or whatever device, beside an stereo or power windows, and on any case, just temporally ( but the stereo if you are hearing music with engine off )
true if alt is not able too feed enough at low rpms, so the power alt is not able to give, will be provided by the batt, through ammeter.
so thats the reason a powerfull alt, specially at low RPMs is a demand for the vehicle requirements, to save everthing of the system
and of course the weak spots at bulhead SPECIALLY the black wire... both wires ( red and black ) but SPECIALLY that one
nobody said everything is false, just that if everything is rightly made, ammeter bypass is not a demanded requirement
( and of course on a fully discharged batt, NOT TO CHARGE IT on car giving gas )
With a Charger born in Chrysler assembly plant in Valencia, Venezuela
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Re: Alternator..how many amps can I run
[Re: moparrulzzz]
#912092
01/25/11 06:39 PM
01/25/11 06:39 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,438
So Cal
Sinitro
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,438
So Cal
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As you increase the alternators amperage, the wiring system and respective connections need upgrading. The primary weakness is the 12 guage wire, tab terminals (bulkhead) and the amp guage. If you are planning to raise the system's current pull by adding fans, fuel pump, amplifiers, lights.. I would suggest that the entire wire harness and charging system be upgraded as well.. Just my $0.02.. 
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Re: Alternator..how many amps can I run
[Re: Sinitro]
#912093
01/26/11 04:24 AM
01/26/11 04:24 AM
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,277
West Coast, USA
jbc426
master
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master
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,277
West Coast, USA
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Quote:
As you increase the alternators amperage, the wiring system and respective connections need upgrading. The primary weakness is the 12 guage wire, tab terminals (bulkhead) and the amp guage. If you are planning to raise the system's current pull by adding fans, fuel pump, amplifiers, lights..
I would suggest that the entire wire harness and charging system be upgraded as well..
Just my $0.02..
Good advice! The weakest link theory is so true when it comes to dealing with this stuff.
Also, I left the stock charging system in place on my '68, including the points type regulator, and just added a dual field alternator with a solid state regulator, the larger wire directly to the starter relay terminal. It only had the stock electrical loads to support in the car though.
1970 Plymouth 'Cuda #'s 440-6(block in storage)currently 493" 6 pack, Shaker, 5 speed Passon, 4.10's
1968 Plymouth Barracuda Convertible 408 Magnum EFI with 4 speed automatic overdrive, 3800 stall lock-up converter and 4.30's (closest thing to an automatic 5 speed going)
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