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#906634 - 01/16/11 03:23 PM Bad driveline vibration after manual trans UPDATED
440challenger Offline
master

Registered: 02/21/03
Posts: 4503
Loc: NJ
I swaped out the auto trans in my roadrunner for a a833 4 speed setup. I used the same driveshaft from the auto and the correct year manual trans cross member. I now have a very bad vibration at anything 60mph or over. If i press the clutch in when it vibrates no change.

I did notice that my drive shaft is pushed into the tail housing almost all the way to the yoke. Could this be the problem?


Edited by 440challenger (03/14/11 07:28 AM)

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#906635 - 01/16/11 03:53 PM Re: Bad driveline vibration after manual trans install [Re: 440challenger]
peabodyracing Offline
top fuel

Registered: 01/01/07
Posts: 1907
Loc: Minnesota
Vibration problems like that can drive you crazy. I'm not aware that the driveshaft length is different between manual and automatic transmission. Since it doesn't change when you depress the clutch it's probably a safe bet the problem is alignment or support.

Two thoughts: 1) double check that you got the u joint caps seated properly on the 3rd member yoke. 2) You didn't mention the condition of the 4 speed. I'd be concerned about the brass bushing inside the tail stock of the 4 speed which the slip yoke goes into. I've had high speed vibration issues because of those being worn, but often the vibration will over power the rear seal and you'll have fluid leaking out the back of the tranny.

Hope this helps.
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#906636 - 01/16/11 03:56 PM Re: Bad driveline vibration after manual trans install [Re: 440challenger]
Pacnorthcuda Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 11/19/07
Posts: 18907
Loc: Kirkland, Washington
You did check the bellhousing alignment to the block right?

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#906637 - 01/16/11 04:30 PM Re: Bad driveline vibration after manual trans install [Re: 440challenger]
DAYCLONA Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 12/10/07
Posts: 15497
Loc: Mass


I did notice that my drive shaft is pushed into the tail housing almost all the way to the yoke. Could this be the problem?








Sounds like your problem area, whether the shaft worked with the automatic, is a mute point now, you need some (3/4"-1") Slip play to allow the shaft/spline movement as the rear suspension compresses over it's travel,....I'd suspect you have a Dodge drive shaft in your Plymouth, as they are different,....measure the shaft center to center, here's the specs

68-9 Dodge B body BBlk 4spd w/ 8 3/4......52 1/16"
68-9 Dodge B body BBLK 4spd w/ 9 3/4......50.960"

68-9 Plymouth B body BBlk 4spd w/ 8 3/4...51.500"
69-9 Plymouth B Body BBlk 4spd w/ 9 3/4...50.390"

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#906638 - 01/16/11 05:24 PM Re: Bad driveline vibration after manual trans install [Re: DAYCLONA]
scratchnfotraction Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 05/29/03
Posts: 15098
Loc: Florida


remove the yoke from drive shaft slid it in the tranz till it bottom out

measure from cent of cup to center of cups on the rear diff

subtrac 1" to get correct length

check pinion angles also

make sure u-joints move freely in the yokes

make sure they are greesed up good


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#906639 - 01/16/11 05:51 PM Re: Bad driveline vibration after manual trans install [Re: DAYCLONA]
440challenger Offline
master

Registered: 02/21/03
Posts: 4503
Loc: NJ
Good info guys. I will ck the u joints but they are new (within a year). Tail shaft bushing looked good when i visualy checked it out when replacing the seal. The driveshaft is a 68 b/c it has the big ring up front.. It could very well be a dodge shaft!

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#906640 - 01/16/11 05:53 PM Re: Bad driveline vibration after manual trans install [Re: Pacnorthcuda]
440challenger Offline
master

Registered: 02/21/03
Posts: 4503
Loc: NJ
Quote:

You did check the bellhousing alignment to the block right?



No i did not. This is like a serious vibration. It feels and sounds exactly like when a joint fails while driving and it bangs around

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#906641 - 01/16/11 06:12 PM Re: Bad driveline vibration after manual trans install [Re: 440challenger]
RapidRobert Offline
Circle Track

Registered: 11/20/03
Posts: 33349
Loc: Lincoln Nebraska
Same yoke/shaft/ujoints right? That only leaves angle/butted/bushing/mount EDIT I'd get the rear up w a stout hyd floor jack (stands would be safer) and have a helper run it in gear & you (carefully) see what you see


Edited by RapidRobert (01/16/11 06:17 PM)
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#906642 - 01/16/11 06:18 PM Re: Bad driveline vibration after manual trans install [Re: RapidRobert]
440challenger Offline
master

Registered: 02/21/03
Posts: 4503
Loc: NJ
Yes all the same

Would the pinion angle change from installing a manual trans though? the car was smooth as silk with the auto. Would a pilot bushing cause this? the car doesnt grind any gears and isnt hard to get the car into gear?

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#906643 - 01/16/11 06:43 PM Re: Bad driveline vibration after manual trans install [Re: 440challenger]
Chi_Town_Runner Offline
super stock

Registered: 07/03/04
Posts: 1076
Loc: Retired in New Mexico
Just a WAG

Did you change/replace the bushing in the crank?

Frank
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#906644 - 01/16/11 06:52 PM Re: Bad driveline vibration after manual trans install [Re: Chi_Town_Runner]
440challenger Offline
master

Registered: 02/21/03
Posts: 4503
Loc: NJ
Quote:

Just a WAG

Did you change/replace the bushing in the crank?

Frank




Yes i replaced the bushing.

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#906645 - 01/16/11 07:05 PM Re: Bad driveline vibration after manual trans install [Re: 440challenger]
446acuda Offline
master

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 2730
Loc: Charlotte, NC
if the trans wasn't rebuilt it might be a bad rear bearing (aka center bearing to some people0

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#906646 - 01/16/11 07:06 PM Re: Bad driveline vibration after manual trans install [Re: 440challenger]
RapidRobert Offline
Circle Track

Registered: 11/20/03
Posts: 33349
Loc: Lincoln Nebraska
I think the prob is right there at the tail end of the trans at the yoke
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#906647 - 01/16/11 09:00 PM Re: Bad driveline vibration after manual trans install [Re: 440challenger]
scratchnfotraction Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 05/29/03
Posts: 15098
Loc: Florida
I would ditch the balance ring on the shaft

get you a long shaft and have it cut down and balanced for a perfect fit..its allways cheaper to shortin it

cheap u-joints can wear fast with bad drive line angles/balance


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#906648 - 01/17/11 09:07 AM Re: Bad driveline vibration after manual trans install [Re: scratchnfotraction]
Harley Offline
super stock

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 974
Loc: Queens, New York
Check your pinion angle.

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#906649 - 01/18/11 03:24 PM Re: Bad driveline vibration after manual trans install [Re: 440challenger]
dvw Offline
master

Registered: 03/16/06
Posts: 6830
Loc: MI, usa
For what it's worth my Challenger has the same type of vibration. Bell housing is with-in .005" in both planes. U-Joint angle is 1.5 degrees at both ends of the drive shaft (one angle positive,one angle negative),new Dyno-tech shaft with less than .030" runout, 2 different sets of axle shafts. I've had 3 center sections in it,2.76,3.55,4.30. No vibration with the 2.76. Both the 3.55 and the 4.30 have been in my other car with no problems. I rebuilt the trans, no noise, shifts great. However back in the day I broke 3 drive shafts. One broke a bell housing, one broke the front driveshaft yoke. I'm wondering now if the input or output shaft/shafts are bent. I wouldn't have thought it posible,but. This summer my friends 66 Coronet lost a u-joint cap on the X-way at 55 MPH with 4.10 gears. It bent the output shaft at about a 20 degree angle. Though it was an automatic the shafts are similar in diameter.
I haven't got around to checking it yet.
Doug

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#906650 - 01/18/11 03:33 PM Re: Bad driveline vibration after manual trans install [Re: 440challenger]
64dodge572 Offline
master

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 4265
Loc: Ohio
Quote:

I swaped out the auto trans in my roadrunner for a a833 4 speed setup. I used the same driveshaft from the auto and the correct year manual trans cross member. I now have a very bad vibration at anything 60mph or over. If i press the clutch in when it vibrates no change.

I did notice that my drive shaft is pushed into the tail housing almost all the way to the yoke. Could this be the problem?



Is the vibration MPH related or RPM? I didn't see you mention what engine you have, Is the flywheel the correct balance for the engine?
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#906651 - 01/18/11 05:40 PM Re: Bad driveline vibration after manual trans install [Re: 64dodge572]
440challenger Offline
master

Registered: 02/21/03
Posts: 4503
Loc: NJ
Its MPH related. I have a steel crank 383 with the correct flywheel from brewers.

I havent gotten around to checking further into it with the nasty weather over here as it sits outside.

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#906652 - 02/06/11 05:44 PM Re: Bad driveline vibration after manual trans install [Re: 440challenger]
440challenger Offline
master

Registered: 02/21/03
Posts: 4503
Loc: NJ
So i checked it out today. Took it for a ride and and here is what it does. It is deffiently MPH related.In fouth gear at anything over 3k rpm is vibrates like MAD. Its smooth as silk UNTIL that speed(probably around 60mph). The vibration resonates thought the driveline and will not go away until the car starts to slow down. If I pop it in neutral it has 0 effect.

I tried checking my pinion angle,not really sure where to exactly measure but i ended up putting my angle finder on the drive shaft and got -3 and then i put it on the pad where the pinion snubber is and got +3. Not sure if thats good? I ended up flipping the drive shaft 180 degrees in the yoke that did nouthing. SO then i figured let me try and put some shims under the trans mount to move the tailshaft up, Put about 3 fender shims under the mount and took the car out, made NO difference.

Im really not sure where to go from here. This car was so smooth with the automatic right before i converted to the manual. When i converted to the manual i used the correct 68 crossmember and mount, the SAME driveshaft that I had with the auto. I used all correct Mopar fastners for the flywheel and pressure plate. A reconditioned flywheel from Brewers and a new DF Centerforce clutch , all new linkage etc.

Pilot bushing is new also. I did not do any alignment with the bellhousing, i just bolted it on using the factory dowels.

This is a CRAZY vibration,like when it starts to vibrate, you have to back RIGHT off the throttle. makes about the same racket as if you were in a car and it spit a ujoint.

Any suggestions Please help. Im not sure what to do next?

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#906653 - 02/06/11 06:20 PM Re: Bad driveline vibration after manual trans install [Re: 440challenger]
DoctorDiff Offline
master

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 7815
Loc: Polson, MT
I would check the bushing in the crank and the bushing in the tail housing.

The crank bushing often gets beat out of round and/or seized/spun especially when installing a busing in an automatic crank.

What style of pilot bushing did you use? I like the new style that fits in the torque converter hub.

The transmission centerline should be parallel to the pinion centerline.
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#906654 - 02/06/11 06:22 PM Re: Bad driveline vibration after manual trans install [Re: 440challenger]
RapidRobert Offline
Circle Track

Registered: 11/20/03
Posts: 33349
Loc: Lincoln Nebraska
I feel your pain. You know I'm not a stick guy (904 afficionado) but if it's not an angle prob I'd bet my next to last buck on the trans but I'd put it up on stands & have some run it up & you see if you can spot anything not kosher
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#906655 - 02/06/11 06:25 PM Re: Bad driveline vibration after manual trans install [Re: DoctorDiff]
440challenger Offline
master

Registered: 02/21/03
Posts: 4503
Loc: NJ
I used a bronze? bushing from the help section for my application. I messed the first one up pretty bad putting it in,because i was not aware that even though the cranks are drilled,they are not finished ready to accept a bushing. So i used a sand roll on a dremel and grinded the inside of the hole to fit the new bushing. I then hammered the new bushing in (was still a bit tight and i did mess it up a little bit) But i then took the sand roll again and cleaned up the inside of the bushing so that my clutch alignment tool fit in easily but not sloppy.

The trans went in very easily also.


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#906656 - 02/06/11 06:38 PM Re: Bad driveline vibration after manual trans install [Re: 440challenger]
RapidRobert Offline
Circle Track

Registered: 11/20/03
Posts: 33349
Loc: Lincoln Nebraska
I think I'd put it up on 4 stands w a large shop hyd floor jack under the 3rd member just touching it for safety & have someone work the throttle & you underneath on the side. I'd think w that amt of vibration that something might be (hopefully) apparent
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#906657 - 02/06/11 06:43 PM Re: Bad driveline vibration after manual trans install [Re: 440challenger]
DoctorDiff Offline
master

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 7815
Loc: Polson, MT
The "drilled hole" is undersized and it is not in the center of the crank. Hand clearancing the bushing exaggerates the problem. Don't ask me how I know this.

I would install a late model pilot bearing that fits in the torque converter hub. You should also correct the bellhousing runout. At least make sure all alignment dowels are engaged.
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#906658 - 02/06/11 07:08 PM Re: Bad driveline vibration after manual trans install [Re: DoctorDiff]
440challenger Offline
master

Registered: 02/21/03
Posts: 4503
Loc: NJ
Ok i will try the different sytle bearing. Now as far as aligning the bell. I dont understand this. I see they sell offset bushings,but how would you move the bell,beings the mounting holes are not slotted ? Say you put an offset dowel in,wouldnt the bell botls not line up to the block ?

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#906659 - 02/06/11 07:16 PM Re: Bad driveline vibration after manual trans install [Re: 440challenger]
DoctorDiff Offline
master

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 7815
Loc: Polson, MT
The bolt holes in the bellhousing are oversized. If you need to go farther, you can always drill them out.

The procedure is outlined in Moparts tech archive:

http://www.moparts.org/Tech/Archive/clutch/16.html

I think RobbMC makes an easy to install offset dowel kit.
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#906660 - 02/06/11 07:19 PM Re: Bad driveline vibration after manual trans install [Re: 440challenger]
Yancy Derringer Offline
mopar

Registered: 10/20/10
Posts: 606
Loc: Montana
OK, look. FORGET bell/ clutch/ pilot alignment FOR NOW. If any of that was screwed up, it would be hard to shift, or hard to get into gear, etc

I think you either have a yoke/ ujoint or a balance problem.

Check carefully the play between the yoke/ bushing.

Check that the yoke is not bottommed

Pull the shaft and TAKE THE U JOINTS apart and inspect, re-grease, and re-install HAVE THE SHAFT BALANCED

Check your pinion for play in the bearings, or loose on the shaft.

Just for drill, try a different set of (borrowed) tires, or at least the rear pair.

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#906661 - 02/07/11 09:30 AM Re: Bad driveline vibration after manual trans install [Re: 440challenger]
dan9 Offline
super stock

Registered: 12/30/09
Posts: 999
Loc: pa.
Did you install the inner c clips on the rear u-joint? I had overlooked that on my rr and found the driveshaft wasn't centered.

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#906662 - 03/14/11 07:33 AM Re: Bad driveline vibration after manual trans install [Re: dan9]
440challenger Offline
master

Registered: 02/21/03
Posts: 4503
Loc: NJ
So i took the trans out to fix 2ndgear. 2nd gear sync was cracked in half. I put all new syncros in, and both main shaft bearings. I also replaced the rear tailshaft bushing which was thought to maybe be the problem causing the vibration. It was still good. I put it all together and actually found a driveshaft about
1 1/4 shorter. Took it for a ride and no vibration! Must of been that driveshaft bottomed on the yoke!!

Everything is good now,except ! I have a slight woodpecker sounding noise coming from the trans It shifts great and does everything perfect besides the noise. I ran straight atf,im thinking of putting gear oil in it to see if it quiets down

It goes away if the push the clutch in.


Edited by 440challenger (03/14/11 07:34 AM)

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#906663 - 03/14/11 11:57 AM Re: Bad driveline vibration after manual trans install [Re: 440challenger]
DAYCLONA Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 12/10/07
Posts: 15497
Loc: Mass
Quote:

I put it all together and actually found a driveshaft about
1 1/4 shorter. Took it for a ride and no vibration! Must of been that driveshaft bottomed on the yoke!!








I think I said that back in January ....Glad you squared away your issues with that 4 spd,....now if you want to keep it together, GET THAT ATF OUT OF THAT CASE!,...use a GL5 90 weight oil only, that ATF will only shorten the life of that 4spd,...real quick

Mike

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