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#894175 - 01/02/11 10:27 AM Re: how hot is too hot of an operating temp? [Re: dkn1997]
OzHemi Offline
Penguin-hating Ginger

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 104346
Loc: Garden Grove, CA
Quote:

yes, dual spal fans (1300cfm each) but due to total lack of room between WP pulley and the rad core(two row aluminum Fluidyne) the fans are mounted up high on the rad. bottom third of rad isn't getting air pulled through it. I think that's my problem. I don't know if I should create some sort of shroud to cover that part of the rad and leave fans where they are or maybe go with the feets mercedes fan that would cover more of the core (I am a bit short on clearance even for that though so i'd have to get creative)

I was running a flowkooler wp with the plate tacked on and I switched it out for a parts store stock replacement. There was no change in performance.. but enough of a hijack here. As much as I'd love to get my issue resolved, it's this guys thread...If you have any suggestions though, please please PM me. Thanks so much. Kevin.




Can you run an aluminum shroud and mount the fans in it, so it pulls from the entire radiator ?
I used this setup in my Torana (Not a Mopar, but you get the idea ) and works very well.
Spal fans as well by the way...


Attachments
6392518-056(3).JPG (114 downloads)

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#894176 - 01/02/11 10:43 AM Re: how hot is too hot of an operating temp? [Re: dkn1997]
chache876 Offline
pro stock

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 1371
Loc: Costa Mesa, CA
Quote:

I know I don't know as much as many members here, but I just don't like 200 for our cars. I know that new cars run that hot but they are designed to run safely on the edge. EFI, knock sensors, computer spark control to retard timing, etc..

Personally, I don't want mine going over 180 if I can help it. I took my big block charger on a road trip this summer, sat in 3 hours of stop and go traffic to get a total of about 20 miles. It got to 210 in stop and go. No, it didn't puke and overheat, but I still didn't like it. I'm trying to come with some solution to get it to run cooler at idle. as soon as the car moves, even 20-30 mph, the temp drops right to 170 where my temp sensor is set (electric fans running off sensor)




True, a lot of reasons why today's engines are able to run a lot hotter comfortably has to do with new technology, materials, etc...Even if youre still running an original untouched engine from 40 years ago I think anything under 180 is not nearly warm enough. For example I know on my 72 demon's stock temp gauge, when the temp is at about 180 the needle has barely moved, at about 200 its right in the middle. I just did a quick lookup on thermostats from a few different engines back then and they all said 195 was the OE thermostat temp. Whether thats right or not I couldn't tell however.

An engine thats not fully warmed up is going to cause some problems. As inefficient as internal combustion engines are, they are even less efficient at cold operating temperatures. Youre going to see worse gas mileage since the colder than engine is, the richer the mixture has to be and youre going to see less power because of that.

Worst of all, cylinder wall wear increases the colder you go, especially under 150 degrees and under 130 is when rust occurs rapidly. For every gallon of gas burned, about a gallon of moisture is created in the cylinders. That combined with unburned gas that gets by the piston rings into the crankcase and forms acids that wear parts and form rust, making it important that the engine reaches a hot enough temperature to combat that.

In my opinion I wouldn't run anything lower than a 180 tstat. If you have electric fans make sure the turn off temp is higher than what your tstat's rating is.

Sorry for the long post and not trying to attack you or anything, just figured I'd share some info with you that would maybe make you not worry about those temps youre seeing. 210 degrees is perfectly fine IMO

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#894177 - 01/02/11 10:57 AM Re: how hot is too hot of an operating temp? [Re: chache876]
RapidRobert Offline
Circle Track

Registered: 11/20/03
Posts: 34509
Loc: Lincoln Nebraska
Quote:

I think anything under 180 is not nearly warm enough. An engine thats not fully warmed up is going to cause some problems. As inefficient as internal combustion engines are, they are even less efficient at cold operating temperatures. Youre going to see worse gas mileage since the colder than engine is, the richer the mixture has to be.
Worst of all, cylinder wall wear increases the colder you go, making it important that the engine reaches a hot enough temperature to combat that.In my opinion I wouldn't run anything lower than a 180 tstat.


I couldn't agree more. I'm getting horrible mileage in my 65 dart ('83 318 w eddy 1406/streetmaster/15 initial) & the vacuum break choke pulloff is not operating plus inop heat riser. I have work to do.
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#894178 - 01/02/11 11:21 AM Re: how hot is too hot of an operating temp? [Re: Doc Fiberglass]
bboogieart Offline
master

Registered: 01/12/08
Posts: 3644
Loc: Lost and Spaced
Quote
[Or are you thinking of a sensor that shows how open the thermostat is.]
doc, maybe something like this would help. I know you mentioned the heads had several locations, but was thinking you couldn't get much closer to the stat than this.


Attachments
6392665-thermostat.jpg (110 downloads)


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#894179 - 01/02/11 11:39 AM Re: how hot is too hot of an operating temp? [Re: bboogieart]
RapidRobert Offline
Circle Track

Registered: 11/20/03
Posts: 34509
Loc: Lincoln Nebraska
Quote:

you couldn't get much closer to the stat than this.


what a trick piece! Hell I'd cut a piece of glass from a dishwasher safe glass cup or bowl and epoxy it in for a sight glass & eyeball it directly
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live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth

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#894180 - 01/02/11 11:48 AM Re: how hot is too hot of an operating temp? [Re: RapidRobert]
bboogieart Offline
master

Registered: 01/12/08
Posts: 3644
Loc: Lost and Spaced
could probably pick up a sight glass from a hydraulic supply house that will screw right in.
Great idea robert I was gonna see about fitting a regular gauge but now if you don't mind I'm gonna steal yer idea.

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#894181 - 01/02/11 11:54 AM Re: how hot is too hot of an operating temp? [Re: bboogieart]
RapidRobert Offline
Circle Track

Registered: 11/20/03
Posts: 34509
Loc: Lincoln Nebraska
Actually I'm flattered
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live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth

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#894182 - 01/02/11 12:54 PM Re: how hot is too hot of an operating temp? [Re: cjs69mope]
terzmo Offline
top fuel

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 1913
Loc: Pendleton NY
Quote:

I run a seven blade flex fan 17 in dia with stock shroud on a 26 inch
3 core stock brass type radiator .
with a 160 t-stat the eng would run to cool for school , never even got to 180 unless very warm out side . the eng has aprox 600 hp.
had to switch to 195 t stat to correct some air fuel distributon issiues and car still runs 195 on hyway will creep to 210 if sitting in trafic to long but still ok .
I have a friend with a all alumnum 850hp hemi that runs stock seven blade fan with the viscus thermo clutch and keeps cool and says that he has tried every fan out there and none can beat the factory seven blade pulls about 4000 cfm so he says . try to find electric fans that will fit on a 26 in radiator and pull like that ! very dificult !





I tried the electric fan route on My 440 (bored and stroked to 500) and couldn't keep it cool in traffic. Went back to a mechanical 7 blade clutch fan and shroud...motor runs cool in traffic...very happy...also has a cheap aluminum 26 inch rad. 160 stat....cars runs between 180 to 190


Attachments
6392895-IM000613.JPG (64 downloads)



Edited by terzmo (01/02/11 12:55 PM)

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#894183 - 01/03/11 11:32 PM Re: how hot is too hot of an operating temp? [Re: roe]
Magnum Offline
master

Registered: 01/24/03
Posts: 5673
Loc: Hamilton, Ontario Canada
Quote:

also need to either get a new cap for my overflow tank, or pick up a universal one. One of the nipples broke off my original so coolant can go in but can't come back out to the radiator.




If you chose a universal overflow. That's all it may be. To catch overflow and never put it back where it came from.

A factory tank is actually a resorvoir and will expell any air from your cooling system. Catch any overflow and put it back when the engine cools. Less air is better.
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#894184 - 01/04/11 07:09 AM Re: how hot is too hot of an operating temp? [Re: terzmo]
DennisH Offline
Vacation

Registered: 12/14/04
Posts: 5278
Loc: San Jose, California
180 Superstat. Clutch fan. Copper. 26"

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#894185 - 01/04/11 08:20 AM Re: how hot is too hot of an operating temp? [Re: terzmo]
MY340 Offline
master

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 5270
Loc: Missouri
Quote:

Quote:

FWIW Ford doesn't even turn on the electric fan on cars so equipped till 221 degrees..




FWIT...that ford must be a newer car...old iron was in the danger zone at 210 plus...I don't understand why anyone would run old iron motors at 230 and wait for 250......195 to 200 nis ok...I prefer to see it around 190 for My Bee and GTX...both 440 motors




Ya ever wonder why some Ford vehicles had head gasket problems?
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#894186 - 01/04/11 10:58 AM Re: how hot is too hot of an operating temp? [Re: MY340]
Big Bad Bee Offline


Registered: 12/22/03
Posts: 10848
Loc: Spokane, WA
Rick Ehrenberg did an excellent article a couple issues back on cooling systems, fans, shrouds. He talks specifically to the high temperature issue. 200 degree running temps don't freak him out, and he's flogged more than a couple of cars.

I hate to sound like I worship the guy but he is THE MAN.
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#894187 - 01/04/11 12:04 PM Re: how hot is too hot of an operating temp? [Re: Big Bad Bee]
DaytonaTurbo Offline


Registered: 02/26/03
Posts: 21077
Loc: Manitoba, Canada
Quote:

200 degree running temps don't freak him out




Well considering 195 is a factory t-stat I don't see why anyone would be freaked out with a 200* temp.

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#894188 - 01/04/11 01:00 PM Re: how hot is too hot of an operating temp? [Re: DaytonaTurbo]
buildanother Online   content
I Live Here

Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 11325
Loc: chicagoland,usa
200 is not hot, and GM has had some switches on front drive elec fan cars, not coming on until almost 240. So sit in traffic with your non a/c car on a hot day and enjoy.

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#894189 - 01/05/11 05:40 PM Re: how hot is too hot of an operating temp? [Re: buildanother]
roe Offline
master

Registered: 01/20/05
Posts: 3336
Loc: Central TX
well guys I replaced my factory sensor so now i have both gauges. When my aftermarket gauge reads 200 degrees my factory gauge is right in the middle of the operating temp. Actually its just a little less than halfway. it hasn't.spiked up to 220-230 again yet, must have worked the air pockets out. If it does I will report back what my factory gauge reads when it does.

roe
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1971 Plymouth Satellite
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#894190 - 01/05/11 05:44 PM Re: how hot is too hot of an operating temp? [Re: roe]
bboogieart Offline
master

Registered: 01/12/08
Posts: 3644
Loc: Lost and Spaced
Right On
So you are good to go.

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#894191 - 01/05/11 08:06 PM Re: how hot is too hot of an operating temp? [Re: buildanother]
terzmo Offline
top fuel

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 1913
Loc: Pendleton NY
Quote:

200 is not hot, and GM has had some switches on front drive elec fan cars, not coming on until almost 240. So sit in traffic with your non a/c car on a hot day and enjoy.




another apple and orange comparison

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#894192 - 01/06/11 07:14 AM Re: how hot is too hot of an operating temp? [Re: chache876]
360view Offline
master

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 4662
Loc: USA

195 degree ..... 18.00 MPG
175 degree ..... 17.91 MPG
155 degree ..... 17.82 MPG
135 degree ..... 17.74 MPG

For whatever it is worth
the above is what Kevin Gertgen's
'Fuel Economy Calculator' program

http://performancetrends.com/fuel_economy_calculator.htm

predicts for a
stock 1995 2wd 5.9 V8 46RH auto Ram pickup with 3.55 diff,
travelling down a level concrete highway at a steady 70 mph on a windless 42 degree F day

The program does not allow thermostat temps above 195,
but one might speculate that each
20 degrees of coolant temperature increase
might be worth
0.1 MPG

I know that if you idle a 1995 Ram for ten or so minutes
with the factory radiator fan removed,
but with Evans NPG coolant to prevent boil over,
the coolant temperature goes up from
193 to 240,
the idle smoothness noticeably improves,
and the fuel consumption drops from
0.66 gallons per hour to
0.60

When at speed on a highway,
if you raise the coolant temperature by blocking airflow through the radiator,
rather than by thermostat action,
you might get an even better MPG gain,
because air flowing through the front grille and then out the bottom of the vehicle is a major source of aerodynamic drag.

NASCAR teams of course routinely block off as much of the grille as cooling will allow,
and the new GM Cruze has shutters on its radiator opening.

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#894193 - 01/06/11 07:55 AM Re: how hot is too hot of an operating temp? [Re: 360view]
Pale_Roader Offline
Swears too much

Registered: 01/21/05
Posts: 4572
Loc: the frozen wastes...

One thing i can safely, authoritatively tell you from experience is that a 67 440 does not like to run well at 400 degrees. Trust me on this...

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#894194 - 01/06/11 08:51 AM Re: how hot is too hot of an operating temp? [Re: cjs69mope]
Von Offline
master

Registered: 10/15/03
Posts: 3698
Loc: NE Oklahoma
Quote:

try to find electric fans that will fit on a 26 in radiator and pull like that ! very dificult !






Mercedes fan!!
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