Re: Gen 1 or 2 Viper Engine in a 1968 Dodge Dart
[Re: MuuMuu101]
#878769
12/13/10 03:20 AM
12/13/10 03:20 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 104,346 Garden Grove, CA
OzHemi
Penguin-hating Ginger
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Penguin-hating Ginger
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 104,346
Garden Grove, CA
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You'll want to be a decent fabricator....aside from the engine bay length...the K frame to oil pan clearance would be an issue I'd think, along with the torsion bar crossmember will probably need some notching to clear the T56. You'll need a fuel system to support it and do a wiring loom of course to run all the injection and ignition. If you are pretty good at fabricating, wiring, etc it should not be all that huge an undertaking, but won't be a bolt in sort of deal of course. Oh, and the VF/VG front structure is about 3.5" longer than a US car, but then you would be up for replacing everything from the firewall forward on the car, not a job for a novice of course. I actually thought about the swap idea since I knew where there was a V10 and auto around from an SRT-10 truck, but got involved with my Torana project instead for now
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Re: Gen 1 or 2 Viper Engine in a 1968 Dodge Dart
[Re: OzHemi]
#878777
12/13/10 01:55 PM
12/13/10 01:55 PM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 21,345 Marysville, O-H-I-O
70Cuda383
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 21,345
Marysville, O-H-I-O
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word of advice, take some time and start to study these cars and start researching your options.
the V10 is EFI only, no carb manifolds for it unless you make one, and then you have spark control to figure out too. gotta keep the EFI, which means computers, wire harnesses, etc.
this will be a heavy fabrication job, lots of home made parts. time consuming or expensive.
I say to research it...completely! price the parts you think you'll need, save up, then save double that for unforseen expenses.
I thought I would do a "simple" big block swap to a Dakota. I knew I'd be making mounts/headers, and figured the rest would be easy.
I ran into so many tiny headaches that I didn't think about or that didn't go as planned.
I told the wife I could do it for 6-8K, including a build of the motor and purchasing the trans.
I spent about $13K. granted, a lot of my expense was the snowball effect...if I'm rebuilding, why not spend a little more on a stroker crank. if I'm reconditioning rods, why not spend a little more on new ones that are stronger... the "stockish rebuild w/ cam" turned into a 500 hp stroker build.
**Photobucket sucks**
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Re: Gen 1 or 2 Viper Engine in a 1968 Dodge Dart
[Re: MuuMuu101]
#878779
12/13/10 04:02 PM
12/13/10 04:02 PM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 10,938 Spokane Valley, WA
Big Bad Bee
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 10,938
Spokane Valley, WA
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Blown340 has been working with a V10 Dakota project for a while. You might PM him and ask about his horror stories. He's an engineer btw...
I’m listening.
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Re: Gen 1 or 2 Viper Engine in a 1968 Dodge Dart
[Re: BUBBAZ572]
#878781
12/13/10 04:12 PM
12/13/10 04:12 PM
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Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 12,375 SoCal
MuuMuu101
OP
I got lucky at Woodward!
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OP
I got lucky at Woodward!
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 12,375
SoCal
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Quote:
IF YOU DO THIS GO WITH THE GEN 2 ENGINE.I WAS TOLD THERE ARE NO PLUG AND PLAY PARTS AVAILABLE FOR GEN 1 ENGINE
Gotchya. Anyway the GEN 2 Engine is lighter and produces more power.
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Re: Gen 1 or 2 Viper Engine in a 1968 Dodge Dart
[Re: MuuMuu101]
#878783
12/14/10 03:00 AM
12/14/10 03:00 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,037 Texas, Dallas
G_T
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,037
Texas, Dallas
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Gen 1-4 are pretty close dimension wise. I'd have to check my Gen 3. I think the Gen 1 is a little more compact due to the induction setup. Width is not an issue (similiar to a small block).
Be prepared to heavily modify your car. Firewall, trans tunnel & cross member, K-frame. Best bet is to go with an alterkation front end then make custom mounts and tranny cross member. You'll find the stock steering box wont wont work - but with the alterkation you'll have a more modern rack and pinion. you'll need an idit or flaming river steering column.
Also know that many your gauges will not work - you'll need to replace them with electrical ones. Simple stuff like the tach and speedo can be a pita.
The Gen 1 engines have forged internals and simpler ignition systems - easier to modify. However, you can have any of the ignition systems modified. And yeah, you'll need a complete efi setup - custom/modified tank, pumps, etc.
The radiator will need to be custom made - first its large, second it has bigger 2" inlets/outlets. I ended up not only modifying the firewall/trans tunnel but also moved the radiator in front of the radiator support. This means customizing the hood latch, A/C, etc. etc.
Its certainly far from a simple swap - no one makes swap components. Especially exhaust.
Good luck
1970 Charger - V10, 6spd, Alterkation, Street Lynx 4 Link, Moser Dana 60, Wilwood 14" disks, Forgeline 18" Wheels (Rear:335's), ISIS Multiplexing Wiring http://www.v10mopar.com
2012 Charger SRT8
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Re: Gen 1 or 2 Viper Engine in a 1968 Dodge Dart
[Re: G_T]
#878784
12/14/10 03:17 AM
12/14/10 03:17 AM
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Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 12,375 SoCal
MuuMuu101
OP
I got lucky at Woodward!
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OP
I got lucky at Woodward!
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 12,375
SoCal
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Quote:
Gen 1-4 are pretty close dimension wise. I'd have to check my Gen 3. I think the Gen 1 is a little more compact due to the induction setup. Width is not an issue (similiar to a small block).
Be prepared to heavily modify your car. Firewall, trans tunnel & cross member, K-frame. Best bet is to go with an alterkation front end then make custom mounts and tranny cross member. You'll find the stock steering box wont wont work - but with the alterkation you'll have a more modern rack and pinion. you'll need an idit or flaming river steering column.
Also know that many your gauges will not work - you'll need to replace them with electrical ones. Simple stuff like the tach and speedo can be a pita.
The Gen 1 engines have forged internals and simpler ignition systems - easier to modify. However, you can have any of the ignition systems modified. And yeah, you'll need a complete efi setup - custom/modified tank, pumps, etc.
The radiator will need to be custom made - first its large, second it has bigger 2" inlets/outlets. I ended up not only modifying the firewall/trans tunnel but also moved the radiator in front of the radiator support. This means customizing the hood latch, A/C, etc. etc.
Its certainly far from a simple swap - no one makes swap components. Especially exhaust.
Good luck
Now are you talking about Reilly Motorsports alterktion kit? That one is a bit pricey, $4k. But, hey, you got to go all out on something like this. Let me just verify by showing you the link:
http://www.reillymotorsports.com/store/product.php?productid=16182&cat=269&page=1
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Re: Gen 1 or 2 Viper Engine in a 1968 Dodge Dart
[Re: G_T]
#878786
12/14/10 12:04 PM
12/14/10 12:04 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 104,346 Garden Grove, CA
OzHemi
Penguin-hating Ginger
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Penguin-hating Ginger
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 104,346
Garden Grove, CA
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Quote:
Simple stuff like the tach and speedo can be a pita.
You can get adapters to run them....I just did for an LS1 swap into an early car. A tach adaptor from Dakota Digital (that will work on 10 cylinder engine signals as well IIRC) and a electronic to mechanical speedo convertor that does the trick as well
Getting the gauges to work was alot simplier in my swap than building headers from scratch was (and having to do 2 more of them for a 10 cylinder would be even more fun I can imagine )
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Re: Gen 1 or 2 Viper Engine in a 1968 Dodge Dart
[Re: MuuMuu101]
#878787
12/14/10 12:16 PM
12/14/10 12:16 PM
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,336 South-Central (Sebring), FL
Commando1
master
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master
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,336
South-Central (Sebring), FL
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Please don't take this the wrong way. I'm not casting aspersions on you but, judging from the way you asked your questions, my feeling is that you're way over your head in a project like that. I think the idea is cool and would love to see something done like that if done well. I just can't see it as a garage project. Regardless, WTH, if you got the ambition and skills, go for it. FWIW, I can't see anyone w/o connections scoring a Viper drivetrain for 1/2 the price of a new gen HEMI. A Hemi out of a low mileage truck are around 1500 bucks around here.
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Re: Gen 1 or 2 Viper Engine in a 1968 Dodge Dart
[Re: Commando1]
#878788
12/14/10 02:32 PM
12/14/10 02:32 PM
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Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 12,375 SoCal
MuuMuu101
OP
I got lucky at Woodward!
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OP
I got lucky at Woodward!
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 12,375
SoCal
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Quote:
Please don't take this the wrong way. I'm not casting aspersions on you but, judging from the way you asked your questions, my feeling is that you're way over your head in a project like that. I think the idea is cool and would love to see something done like that if done well. I just can't see it as a garage project. Regardless, WTH, if you got the ambition and skills, go for it. FWIW, I can't see anyone w/o connections scoring a Viper drivetrain for 1/2 the price of a new gen HEMI. A Hemi out of a low mileage truck are around 1500 bucks around here.
No hard feelings man. Once I get going with even the smallest idea in my mind, I elaborate on it for a month.
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Re: Gen 1 or 2 Viper Engine in a 1968 Dodge Dart
[Re: MuuMuu101]
#878789
12/14/10 07:24 PM
12/14/10 07:24 PM
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,310 Walnut Creek, CA
blown340
master
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master
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,310
Walnut Creek, CA
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Quote:
Quote:
Please don't take this the wrong way. I'm not casting aspersions on you but, judging from the way you asked your questions, my feeling is that you're way over your head in a project like that. I think the idea is cool and would love to see something done like that if done well. I just can't see it as a garage project. Regardless, WTH, if you got the ambition and skills, go for it. FWIW, I can't see anyone w/o connections scoring a Viper drivetrain for 1/2 the price of a new gen HEMI. A Hemi out of a low mileage truck are around 1500 bucks around here.
No hard feelings man. Once I get going with even the smallest idea in my mind, I elaborate on it for a month.
I know just a tad about these swaps... I don't mean this to be rude, but with the basic questions your asking about minor modifications to the car, your going to be way way way over your head when it comes to custom fabricating a front subframe, firewall, crossmembers, custom efi harness, and don't forget the computer programming. I'm a mechanical engineer who also spent 3 years working as a racecar fabricator previously and I'm 2 years into this project. Granted thats largely about time and money, but still its not easy. My best advice would be to get the car going with a traditional drivetrain like a 360 or modern hemi or whatever and build up your skillsets before you jump into something like this.
Actually the real question is where are you going to school? If you are studying mechanical engineering and want to be able to tackle major projects like this in the future I would strongly recommend finding out if your school has a Formula SAE program. It is by far the best training you can get for this sort of stuff and will pay dividends throughout your engineering career as well.
-Jon
70 challenger convertible. 340/5 speed. blown, intercooled, efi, blah blah blah
71 valiant scamp 318/A833OD/AC/PS
00 dakota RC 4.7L 5 spd autoX'r. SRT10/T56 swap in process
73 W200 Power wagon, PTO winch, 4 spd
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Re: Gen 1 or 2 Viper Engine in a 1968 Dodge Dart
[Re: blown340]
#878790
12/14/10 07:26 PM
12/14/10 07:26 PM
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,310 Walnut Creek, CA
blown340
master
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master
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,310
Walnut Creek, CA
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Formula SAE. yes this is a school project.
70 challenger convertible. 340/5 speed. blown, intercooled, efi, blah blah blah
71 valiant scamp 318/A833OD/AC/PS
00 dakota RC 4.7L 5 spd autoX'r. SRT10/T56 swap in process
73 W200 Power wagon, PTO winch, 4 spd
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Re: Gen 1 or 2 Viper Engine in a 1968 Dodge Dart
[Re: MuuMuu101]
#878791
12/15/10 12:21 AM
12/15/10 12:21 AM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,699 Newport, Mi
Evil Spirit
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,699
Newport, Mi
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Here's something a little off the wall - are you familiar with the sound of the V-10's? Shop I used to work at had a customer with quite a few of them, not to mention we built the Tomahawk bikes, and I never liked the sound of any of them. Some of the Vipers had side pipes, some full exhaust with a variety of mufflers, and we also had a few customers with V-10 converted cars in for exhaust work and I never heard one that I liked. Same with the V-10 trucks, both Dodge and Ford. We could make them loud, but with the extra cylinders and a relatively smooth cam they just sounded flat to me, and several of the other mechanics thought the same thing. It may not be an issue to you, but I would hate for you to do all the work to install a V-10 and not be happy with the results.
Free advice and worth every penny... Factory trained Slinky rewinder.........
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Re: Gen 1 or 2 Viper Engine in a 1968 Dodge Dart
[Re: blown340]
#878792
12/15/10 04:07 AM
12/15/10 04:07 AM
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Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 12,375 SoCal
MuuMuu101
OP
I got lucky at Woodward!
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OP
I got lucky at Woodward!
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 12,375
SoCal
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Quote:
Formula SAE. yes this is a school project.
Right I go to a Cal Poly Pomona in CA which is a Polytechnic School and they have the Formula SAE team and I have been wanting to join for the life of me, but I am going to try to join my sophomore year because I would have taken more mechanical engineer classes. It just seems to be an amazing experience.
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Re: Gen 1 or 2 Viper Engine in a 1968 Dodge Dart
[Re: MuuMuu101]
#878795
12/16/10 02:43 PM
12/16/10 02:43 PM
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,310 Walnut Creek, CA
blown340
master
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master
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,310
Walnut Creek, CA
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Quote:
Quote:
Formula SAE. yes this is a school project.
Right I go to a Cal Poly Pomona in CA which is a Polytechnic School and they have the Formula SAE team and I have been wanting to join for the life of me, but I am going to try to join my sophomore year because I would have taken more mechanical engineer classes. It just seems to be an amazing experience.
You don't need any experience to join! My Freshman year my contribution consisted of making some electrical connections, putting in rivets, and basically being a grunt moving stuff around the shop and holding things for people. Even just doing that little stuff I still learned a ton just by being around the process.
-Jon
70 challenger convertible. 340/5 speed. blown, intercooled, efi, blah blah blah
71 valiant scamp 318/A833OD/AC/PS
00 dakota RC 4.7L 5 spd autoX'r. SRT10/T56 swap in process
73 W200 Power wagon, PTO winch, 4 spd
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Re: Gen 1 or 2 Viper Engine in a 1968 Dodge Dart
[Re: blown340]
#878796
12/16/10 05:20 PM
12/16/10 05:20 PM
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Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 12,375 SoCal
MuuMuu101
OP
I got lucky at Woodward!
|
OP
I got lucky at Woodward!
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 12,375
SoCal
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Formula SAE. yes this is a school project.
Right I go to a Cal Poly Pomona in CA which is a Polytechnic School and they have the Formula SAE team and I have been wanting to join for the life of me, but I am going to try to join my sophomore year because I would have taken more mechanical engineer classes. It just seems to be an amazing experience.
You don't need any experience to join! My Freshman year my contribution consisted of making some electrical connections, putting in rivets, and basically being a grunt moving stuff around the shop and holding things for people. Even just doing that little stuff I still learned a ton just by being around the process.
-Jon
Cool, but I have a really hard year for my first year. Taking more than the recommended amount of courses. But after that it will be easy sailing . I really can't wait to join then. I would like to be one of the design captains by my junior or senior year.
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