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Re: So, how much braking do you really need? [Re: RokketRide] #870656
12/10/10 04:28 PM
12/10/10 04:28 PM
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Irving, TX
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Quote:

In all fairness, the 69 GTX in that magazine test was rolling on ritz crackers. New challenger has some serious rubber under her.

However, a huge difference is the new Chally's braking performance is repeatable all day.




The GTX was the hot rod of it's day and the Challenger is the same. Tire technology does play a significant role.

Here's more pedestrian examples from Motor Trend:
2006 Buick Lucerne: 3795 lbs, 235/55-17 tires, 60-0 in 136 ft.
2006 Mercury Montego AWD: 3954 lbs, 225/55-18 tires, 60-0 in 127 ft.

These cars are similar in size and weight to the GTX. The tires are skinnier than what the GTX had but are obviously made from new compounds. Both of the cars had disc brakes between 11.0 and 12.0 inches in diameter front and rear.

An interesting comparison are these two cars:
2006 Chrysler 300 Touring: 3776 lbs, 215/65-17 tires, 12.6" discs front and rear, 60-0 in 134 ft
2005 Chrysler 300 SRT8: 4190 lbs, 245/45-20 and 255/45-20 tires, 14.2" front discs, 13.8" rear discs, 60-0 in 113 ft


*edit* I did a little fiddling with the numbers. The difference between the 300 Touring and 300 SRT8 is 11369 lb/ft and the brakes are able to stop the greater mass in 21 fewer feet.


We are brothers and sisters doing time on the planet for better or worse. I'll take the better, if you don't mind.
- Stu Harmon
Re: So, how much braking do you really need? [Re: feets] #870657
12/10/10 06:54 PM
12/10/10 06:54 PM
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Kelowna, B.C. Canada
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A couple additional clarifications;

- 1) I wasn't comparing the GTX to a modern performance car, but to the average modern vehicle as I was commenting on the issue of safety of these cars on the road rather than a comparison of braking systems in high performance applications.

- 2) The 179' for the GTX is at 65mph while the other vehicles are at 60mph. Using a mathematical formula and changing the GTX's speed from 65 to 60 mph gives us a figure of 153' which just isn't all that bad (especially with bias ply skinnies) and compares well to the average car/truck/SUV on the road today.

Dave


1970 Super Bee 440 Six Pack 1974 'Cuda 2008 Ram 3500 Diesel 2006 Ram 3500 Diesel 2004.5 Ram 2500 Diesel 2003 Ram 3500 Diesel 2006 Durango Limited [url] http://1970superbee.piczo.com [/url]
Re: So, how much braking do you really need? [Re: DPelletier] #870658
12/10/10 07:14 PM
12/10/10 07:14 PM
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Irving, TX
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The numbers from 60 mph would be about the same as the diesel full sized trucks mentioned earlier.
The "average" car would be the 300 Touring and Buick Lucerne I mentioned earlier. They stopped more than a car length. That's the difference between scaring the poo out of the kid darting into the street and smearing him into the ground for twenty feet.


We are brothers and sisters doing time on the planet for better or worse. I'll take the better, if you don't mind.
- Stu Harmon
Re: So, how much braking do you really need? [Re: feets] #870659
12/10/10 08:20 PM
12/10/10 08:20 PM
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Kelowna, B.C. Canada
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Quote:

The numbers from 60 mph would be about the same as the diesel full sized trucks mentioned earlier.
The "average" car would be the 300 Touring and Buick Lucerne I mentioned earlier. They stopped more than a car length. That's the difference between scaring the poo out of the kid darting into the street and smearing him into the ground for twenty feet.




We're arguing in circles now. The fact you mention: that the GTX's 60' is the same as my diesel pickup is the point I was making.

I have yet to hear anyone say that a new pickup is unsafe on the road and the GTX has basically the same stopping distance......that is all.

....you could now try to convince me it isn't safe to drive my truck anymore, I suppose.


Dave


1970 Super Bee 440 Six Pack 1974 'Cuda 2008 Ram 3500 Diesel 2006 Ram 3500 Diesel 2004.5 Ram 2500 Diesel 2003 Ram 3500 Diesel 2006 Durango Limited [url] http://1970superbee.piczo.com [/url]
Re: So, how much braking do you really need? [Re: DPelletier] #870660
12/10/10 11:22 PM
12/10/10 11:22 PM
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In the twisties
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I could be wrong here, but it sounds like you just demonstrated that a GTX with all drums brakes as poorly as a big honkin diesel truck.

Nobody is going to say that big honkin diesel trucks are unsafe to drive, because they are driven like big honkin diesel trucks... or at least I hope they are.

Re: So, how much braking do you really need? [Re: DPelletier] #870661
12/10/10 11:58 PM
12/10/10 11:58 PM
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Irving, TX
feets Offline
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Quote:


We're arguing in circles now. The fact you mention: that the GTX's 60' is the same as my diesel pickup is the point I was making.

I have yet to hear anyone say that a new pickup is unsafe on the road and the GTX has basically the same stopping distance......that is all.

....you could now try to convince me it isn't safe to drive my truck anymore, I suppose.





I wasn't arguing. I was drawing a comparison. Go read it again without your angst colored glasses and you'll see that nothing bad was said about your poor widdle truck.
I happen to know that my "big honkin diesel" takes a lot longer to stop than my LHS or the hot rod. Unfortunately, it was unable to stop in time on four separate occasions with me behind the wheel. None of them were my fault and I hope people quit being stupid in front of my truck. Honestly, I know for certain that no car on the road would have stopped quickly enough to avoid one of them. 4 wheel ABS would have been required for the most damaging collision (92 D250 has rear ABS only). The other two minor issues could have easily been avoided if the truck had stopped a few feet sooner.
There have been several instances where I was glad I was not in my truck because I would have run over another idiot.

One of those collisions listed above left me with a bruised kidney from the impact. That's where the softer collision areas in the newer cars and trucks come into play. A 92 D250 does not have a crumple zone or energy absorbing features built into the frame. The hard frame rails on the truck hit right on the impact bars in the doors of the Camry. There was no structure to absorb the collision energy. Hard on hard hurts. However, that's another discussion.


We are brothers and sisters doing time on the planet for better or worse. I'll take the better, if you don't mind.
- Stu Harmon
Re: So, how much braking do you really need? [Re: feets] #870662
12/11/10 12:05 AM
12/11/10 12:05 AM
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Orange County, CA
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feets, is the truck you are talking about hitting four other drivers an 18-wheeler? Bit confused.

Re: So, how much braking do you really need? [Re: Mike H] #870663
12/11/10 09:05 AM
12/11/10 09:05 AM
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San Jose, California
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Can't read this anymore. I'm scared to drive the R/T now. With those killer drums and all.

Re: So, how much braking do you really need? [Re: DennisH ] #870664
12/11/10 09:25 AM
12/11/10 09:25 AM
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Cincinnati, Ohio
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Quote:

Can't read this anymore. I'm scared to drive the R/T now. With those killer drums and all.






Re: So, how much braking do you really need? [Re: Challenger 1] #870665
12/11/10 02:16 PM
12/11/10 02:16 PM
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Wherever I am.
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Well...my old '65 Coronet with stock breaks has done me good over the past 11 years or so. I've driven mountains, city, and back roads - fast and slow - wet and dry and have never had a problem slowing down, stopping or panic stopping - from 5 to 100 miles per hour. I've seen it all in my old Coronet. This winter I'll be doing a new break job, it's time. It'll stay stock with good quality parts, new everything. Just saying.


2010 Black Challenger SE <> 3.5 V6
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Re: So, how much braking do you really need? [Re: Paladin] #870666
12/11/10 02:24 PM
12/11/10 02:24 PM
Joined: Mar 2005
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Sterling Heights, Michigan 483...
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Quote:

I have driven a lot of old Mopars in my time, and several of them are far above the handling capabilites of a Suburban or a Camry . The torsion bar front suspension was hailed as the basis of some of the best handling American cars of their day, a fact which is still repeated by people who are surprised when they drive a properly aligned and cared for old Mopar with modern rubber on the ground.



I'll take all the pointers I can get then, because my independant front suspension 2wd Dodge Ram (2001) handles about the same as my 1974 Plymouth Duster. Both vehicles have basically the same equipment: factory 'upgraded' suspensions (Duster = A/C car / truck = tow pkg. vehicle), new MOOG bushings & ball joints, new radial tires, new Monroe gas shocks, fresh alignments, and both vehicles went +1" on wheel diameter while keeping the overall tire diameter the same as stock...
As far as being as good as a modern car... Maybe once the suspension is upgraded a bit?!?
Granted my old cars don't handle as bad as most people just assume they do, however they certainly don't handle nearly as good as any of my newer cars do either.

On the other hand I have 4-wheel disk brakes on my Duster.
Nothing fancy here, just the original factory units up front and I converted the rears using everything from a 1995 Jeep Grand Cherokee. Basically a bolt on deal and only cost $200.00 for mint parts off a salvage yard Jeep and brand new upgraded premium brake pads & new brake hoses. This is about what I was looking at to replace everything to rebuild my well worn out drum brakes back there> It was also cheaper then upgrading to larger rear drums. The car has the 8.25" rear axle in it. I did not bother to hook up the P-brake.


1969 Dodge Super Bee A12 (440 Six Pack, 4-speed, Dana 60 4.10)

1972 Plymouth Road Runner (400, 4-speed, 8.75" 3.23)

1974 Plymouth Duster 360 (360, 4-speed, 8.75" 3.23)
Re: So, how much braking do you really need? [Re: RokketRide] #870667
12/11/10 03:01 PM
12/11/10 03:01 PM
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East Brunswick, NJ
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You can never have too much fuel or too much brakes. Unless of course you are on fire then you always have too much fuel and not enough brakes.

Scott


Scott 1956 Dodge Custom Royal Lancer (408 Stroker, 4 Wheel Disc Brakes, Rack & Pinion, 6 speed) 2002 Dodge Ram 1500 Quad Cab 1976 Corvette
Re: So, how much braking do you really need? [Re: RokketRide] #870668
12/11/10 03:10 PM
12/11/10 03:10 PM
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Kelowna, B.C. Canada
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Quote:

I could be wrong here, but it sounds like you just demonstrated that a GTX with all drums brakes as poorly as a big honkin diesel truck.

Nobody is going to say that big honkin diesel trucks are unsafe to drive, because they are driven like big honkin diesel trucks... or at least I hope they are.




No I just demonstrated that a GTX with all drums brakes as WELL as my brand new, 4 wheel disk equipped Ram pickup.

....and hopefully the GTX is driven like a drum brake GTX too.


Feets;

- Don't worry about me; I'm quite happy driving my "poor widdle truck" as you call it.

Obviously some of you guys just can't get your head around the point I was making: There is nothing inherently unsafe about driving around a '60's car with properly set up drum brakes as long as you don't think you're in a Viper.

Oh, and your '92 Ram has horrible brakes compared to a 3rd gen truck.....maybe you need a new truck and you wouldn't have crashed?

Anyhow, I'm done with this one: anyone who can't understand what I've been saying isn't going to at this point.

Dave


1970 Super Bee 440 Six Pack 1974 'Cuda 2008 Ram 3500 Diesel 2006 Ram 3500 Diesel 2004.5 Ram 2500 Diesel 2003 Ram 3500 Diesel 2006 Durango Limited [url] http://1970superbee.piczo.com [/url]
Re: So, how much braking do you really need? [Re: DPelletier] #870669
12/11/10 10:47 PM
12/11/10 10:47 PM
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In the twisties
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RokketRide Offline
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Quote:

There is nothing inherently unsafe about driving around a '60's car with properly set up drum brakes as long as you don't think you're in a Viper.



Exactly. In fact you can even take out the word inherently.

I dont think anyone had any trouble at all with this point. Its always been about how its being driven.

Re: So, how much braking do you really need? [Re: RokketRide] #870670
12/12/10 01:29 AM
12/12/10 01:29 AM
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Downtown Roebuck Ont
Twostick Online content
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Downtown Roebuck Ont
Considering the diesel pick-up weighs a ton and a half more than a 69 GTX I would say it out brakes the GTX by a bunch.

Kevin

Re: So, how much braking do you really need? [Re: Twostick] #870671
12/12/10 03:30 AM
12/12/10 03:30 AM
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Sterling Heights, Michigan 483...
daniel_depetro Offline
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Yay, it'll never die!


1969 Dodge Super Bee A12 (440 Six Pack, 4-speed, Dana 60 4.10)

1972 Plymouth Road Runner (400, 4-speed, 8.75" 3.23)

1974 Plymouth Duster 360 (360, 4-speed, 8.75" 3.23)
Re: So, how much braking do you really need? [Re: TC@HP2] #870672
12/12/10 04:02 AM
12/12/10 04:02 AM
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Manitoba, Canada
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Quote:

I'll third that and add that I've read tests where in side by side comaprisons, profesional drivers can outdrive the ABS computer.




I don't doubt that. However the average person out there has very little experience practicing threshold braking especially on different types of surfaces. Expecting them to put that into practice in an emergency situation is beyond what you can expect out of the average driver.

Re: So, how much braking do you really need? [Re: DaytonaTurbo] #870673
12/13/10 04:30 AM
12/13/10 04:30 AM
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Bitopia
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jcc Offline
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Quote:

is beyond what you can expect out of the average driver.




, ever met a driver that thought he was "average"?

Last edited by jcc; 12/14/10 02:38 PM.

Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
Re: So, how much braking do you really need? [Re: DaytonaTurbo] #870674
12/14/10 09:29 AM
12/14/10 09:29 AM
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Posts: 1,756
London, England
Gavin Offline
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Quote:

Quote:

I'll third that and add that I've read tests where in side by side comaprisons, profesional drivers can outdrive the ABS computer.




I don't doubt that. However the average person out there has very little experience practicing threshold braking especially on different types of surfaces. Expecting them to put that into practice in an emergency situation is beyond what you can expect out of the average driver.



I agree that is true. But we are specifically talking here about people who know enough and care enough to want to spend money upgrading brake systems on old muscle cars. That means the demographic is someone who understands what a braking system is, how it works, what is good and bad, and presumably wants to drive it and use the improved braking capability. So all that said, I'd expect everyone who fits that category should be interested in setting up and testing their new system, and practicing max braking (otherwise why bother upgrading?).
Short version - driving enthusiasts should not be average drivers......(in theory )

Re: So, how much braking do you really need? [Re: Gavin] #870675
12/25/11 02:13 AM
12/25/11 02:13 AM
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Utah and Alaska
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Well, 1 year later, I am definately going to upgrade my brakes on my 68 charger. Planning on using Ford Exploder dual piston calipers, Crown Vic rotors in the front and the Exploder discs on the rear. These brakes are matched combination by furd, the only reason for the crown vic rotors is fitment on the stock spindles and hubs. The exploder is a 7500 GVW and the charger is around 4200 fully loaded. Keeping this topic alive for another year!

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