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So, how much braking do you really need? #870556
12/03/10 11:45 PM
12/03/10 11:45 PM
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Orange County, CA
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Mike H Offline OP
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Orange County, CA
I can't recall having any difficulty bringing my 69 340 Dart (manual drum brakes) down from 110+mph, many times. So what's the deal with the massive disk brake setups so popular today? Ten inch, 12", 14" rotors, 4 pad, 6 pad, what, 12 pad? I've never even ridden in a mopar that can handle as well as my wife's 90 Camry, or even our Suburban with my wife, kids and the dog in it. So I assume nobody's driving LeMans or Nurburgring. Where the heck are you guys driving that you need so much braking? Down a mineshaft?

Re: So, how much braking do you really need? [Re: Mike H] #870557
12/03/10 11:52 PM
12/03/10 11:52 PM
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Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog Offline
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Heh heh heh... I can sense some confusion?
Yeah, I see your thinking... But for me, I like the extra "braking horsepower" that 4 wheel discs offer. THAT, plus they look nice through the spokes of the 18 inch rims!

Re: So, how much braking do you really need? [Re: Mike H] #870558
12/03/10 11:52 PM
12/03/10 11:52 PM
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Gainesville,FL
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I though my Duster drum brakes were ok until I took a ride in another with real brakes and tires. It's all about perspective. If your still running factory size tires it doesn't make a difference.

Re: So, how much braking do you really need? [Re: Mike H] #870559
12/03/10 11:55 PM
12/03/10 11:55 PM
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Posts: 104,346
Garden Grove, CA
OzHemi Offline
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There used to be a saying about never having enough horsepower...

I just figure you can never have too much braking potential.

And if I do ever get the car out to a road course/open track day sort of thing or run it really hard up in the hills/canyons I know I will never overheat or run out of braking.

(I really wish I could have used the matching 8 piston AMG Brembo calipers for the AMG 360mm rotors...but feets couldn't do me a good enough deal on them )


Re: So, how much braking do you really need? [Re: goldmember] #870560
12/03/10 11:58 PM
12/03/10 11:58 PM
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Grand Haven, MI
patrick Offline
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braking is typically limited by tire grip and thermal dissipation. 3 cars with identical weight, weight distribution, and tires, one with 10.87" discs, one with 11" drums, the other with 13" discs will probably stop in the same distance from say, 60 mph. but do multiple hard stops from speed, you'll get brake fade quickly with the small disc and the drum car....

my duster stops very good with 10" drums all the way around....from say, 50mph. once on the freeway, I had to make a hard stop from 75mph when an accident happened a few cars ahead of me....by 25MPH my brakes were gone from heat soak....had to swerve and go in the grass to avoid the car in front of me....


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Re: So, how much braking do you really need? [Re: Kern Dog] #870561
12/03/10 11:59 PM
12/03/10 11:59 PM
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Posts: 1,212
QLD Australia
Keith Black® Offline
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Quote:

...for me, I like the extra "braking horsepower" that 4 wheel discs offer. THAT, plus they look nice through the spokes of the 18 inch rims!





Wilwood's largest 6 piston SUV caliper & 14.5" discs:

6336240-DSC00560.jpg (203 downloads)

--------------------------------
Darren Beale
Keith Black Racing Engines®
Re: So, how much braking do you really need? [Re: Keith Black®] #870562
12/04/10 12:02 AM
12/04/10 12:02 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 104,346
Garden Grove, CA
OzHemi Offline
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Quote:

Quote:

...for me, I like the extra "braking horsepower" that 4 wheel discs offer. THAT, plus they look nice through the spokes of the 18 inch rims!





Wilwood's largest 6 piston SUV caliper & 14.5" discs:




If you had a small car like a Torana, only 14.17" rotors like mine would do..

(They are 1.41" thick too )

Re: So, how much braking do you really need? [Re: OzHemi] #870563
12/04/10 12:08 AM
12/04/10 12:08 AM
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Houston,Tx.
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Lee446 Offline
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My opinion, if that bottom of the line Ford Fiesta in front of you can outstop you, you just bought a new front end! It is not so much that your drums do well under normal driving conditions, it is what they will do when some ricer cuts you off in traffic and hits the brakes! Any modern car can far outstop our heavy drum braked cars, it makes no sense to me to not go modern.

Re: So, how much braking do you really need? [Re: Mike H] #870564
12/04/10 12:09 AM
12/04/10 12:09 AM
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Montana
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Yancy Derringer Offline
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Montana
Quote:

I can't recall having any difficulty bringing my 69 340 Dart (manual drum brakes)




I'd suggest your memory is remembering the "good times"

My 64 426 Dodge had 11" brakes and a front sway bar stock. I did not have what I'd call "a lot of reserve"

My 69 383 Roadrunner with 11" manual brakes didn't either

My '70 440sixpack had single piston power front disk, and I guess 10 1/2" in the rear. It was more than adequate, but I did some trailer towing---a pretty loaded move from San Diego to N Idaho once, towing a '70 Cuda on a trailer and lots of personal junk. The trailer had electric brakes, but I would not consider that car had "tremendous" over braking capacity.

Re: So, how much braking do you really need? [Re: Mike H] #870565
12/04/10 12:11 AM
12/04/10 12:11 AM
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Lincoln Nebraska
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RapidRobert Offline
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I'm gonna fab some rear discs on a SBP 8&3/4 as I ran across some late MP SBP disc rotors from God knows what that are sitting idle/use fabbed brackets/probably 73 A 2.60" calipers. The proportioning may (& prob will be) off but I'm bored and want to know (if 4 wheel discs are good). Just dont know how the endplay is going to affect things but I'll get it close to zero. I have a DD 65 dart w 74 A (2.75") discs/10" bbp drums/stock 4 wheel drum splitter/large bore (1&1/8" iirc) M/C and it stops real good (though the rears lockup 1st on a panic stop) but I drive like an old man around town so no probs and the semi met pads (or rotors) are not wearing significantly that I can tell. All is good .


live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
Re: So, how much braking do you really need? [Re: patrick] #870566
12/04/10 12:13 AM
12/04/10 12:13 AM
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Gainesville,FL
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Quote:

braking is typically limited by tire grip and thermal dissipation. 3 cars with identical weight, weight distribution, and tires, one with 10.87" discs, one with 11" drums, the other with 13" discs will probably stop in the same distance from say, 60 mph. but do multiple hard stops from speed, you'll get brake fade quickly with the small disc and the drum car....

my duster stops very good with 10" drums all the way around....from say, 50mph. once on the freeway, I had to make a hard stop from 75mph when an accident happened a few cars ahead of me....by 25MPH my brakes were gone from heat soak....had to swerve and go in the grass to avoid the car in front of me....


There are a lot more factors but I'm not going into it. I'm used to stopping from well above 120mph and the factory drum brakes in great shape with the proper shoes(not replacement crap) are capable,but fade will become a problem on repeated stops. With the factory tires and such I wouldn't worry so much about real braking.

Re: So, how much braking do you really need? [Re: goldmember] #870567
12/04/10 12:25 AM
12/04/10 12:25 AM
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IN
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ahy Offline
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Several times I've experienced significant fade with OE front disc/rear drum setups on moderate power cars. Its no fun to be at speed needing brakes and not having them. Granted I was pushing it in the twisties but that's what a car is for. With drum/drum it would have been much worse.

When I got my drum/drum Challenger I drove it around the block a few times then tore it down. I put 13" disks on the front... along with lots more HP. I haven't overdriven the brakes yet... but haven't had many opportunities to drive it in anger. We'll see.

Re: So, how much braking do you really need? [Re: Mike H] #870568
12/04/10 12:36 AM
12/04/10 12:36 AM
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Cincinnati, Ohio
Challenger 1 Offline
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Front disc brakes are a godsend as far as braking goes. Mopar disc brakes are are pretty dang good especially with a proportioning valve in the rear brake line, it helps to balance front to rear braking.

Last summer I drove my 74 340 challenger to the top of Pikes Peak, which meant I had to drive back down that huge mountain.

I not so sure drum brakes wouldn't over heat coming down that thing.

Halfway down, they stop you and shoot your brakes with a heat gun. I thought I was hardly even using the brakes running in low gear and second but the guy said they were hot and I should let em cool.

Sign say "hot brakes fail" This is at the top, on the way down.


Re: So, how much braking do you really need? [Re: Mike H] #870569
12/04/10 12:47 AM
12/04/10 12:47 AM
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Maryland
GO_Fish Offline
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Maryland
If you are running drum/drum setup, the quickest and easiest bang for the buck is to upgrade to the widest tires that will fit your rims and wheel openings. The bigger contact patch is huge. OEM drums with skinny tires would lock up and skid big time when you stood on them. With a good brake rebuild w/ 4 wheel drums and fat tires, you can stand on the brakes and the tires will not slide. For drag strip use, the setup is plenty safe. If you are doing rallye racing (or an aggressive driver on the street), that is quite another story Need disc's up front then.


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Re: So, how much braking do you really need? [Re: GO_Fish] #870570
12/04/10 02:21 AM
12/04/10 02:21 AM
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Montana
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Yancy Derringer Offline
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Montana
Quote:

...drum/drum setup, the quickest and easiest bang for the buck is to upgrade to the widest tires that will fit your rims and wheel openings.




While you might have a valid point so far as a panic stop, this will do NOTHING for brake fade on a curvy, hilly, hard driven road.

Also, it's important to realize that larger DIAMETER tires effectively cause a "geared up" effect on the brakes (of all kinds) and lessen the braking effect

Re: So, how much braking do you really need? [Re: OzHemi] #870571
12/04/10 02:40 AM
12/04/10 02:40 AM
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Posts: 1,212
QLD Australia
Keith Black® Offline
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Quote:

...
If you had a small car like a Torana, only 14.17" rotors like mine would do..

(They are 1.41" thick too )




heheh.. far too many of those little cars around here as it is


--------------------------------
Darren Beale
Keith Black Racing Engines®
Re: So, how much braking do you really need? [Re: Keith Black®] #870572
12/04/10 02:45 AM
12/04/10 02:45 AM
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Posts: 104,346
Garden Grove, CA
OzHemi Offline
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I would say the same about B bodies...

Re: So, how much braking do you really need? [Re: Challenger 1] #870573
12/04/10 03:11 AM
12/04/10 03:11 AM
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Aurora, Colorado
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Quote:

Front disc brakes are a godsend as far as braking goes. Mopar disc brakes are are pretty dang good especially with a proportioning valve in the rear brake line, it helps to balance front to rear braking.

Last summer I drove my 74 340 challenger to the top of Pikes Peak, which meant I had to drive back down that huge mountain.

I not so sure drum brakes wouldn't over heat coming down that thing.

Halfway down, they stop you and shoot your brakes with a heat gun. I thought I was hardly even using the brakes running in low gear and second but the guy said they were hot and I should let em cool.

Sign say "hot brakes fail" This is at the top, on the way down 




Pikes peak is really tough on brakes, expecially with a auto trans or where you can not use engine braking. usually having to be on the brakes because of slower traffic in front of you, and moving too slow for force air through the rotors for the brakes too cool. That said, I'm still running the stock 11" manual drums on the Coronet, but it is a manual trans with 4.10:1 gears

Re: So, how much braking do you really need? [Re: 451Mopar] #870574
12/04/10 03:25 AM
12/04/10 03:25 AM
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Chilliwack B.C. Canada
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My last two Hemi cars have had 11 inch drum brakes in good shape with good quality lining. I feel totally comfortable driving in freeway traffic with them as I know they will panic stop well from 70 MPH or so on the modern radials I run. I do know (from experience) that drums suck when you try to use them from 100MPH and up or in a series of stops. So it depends how you use the car. Even the Mopar discs of the muscle period are a good upgrade.

Sheldon

Re: So, how much braking do you really need? [Re: Mike H] #870575
12/04/10 03:43 AM
12/04/10 03:43 AM
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Bitopia
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Bitopia
To answer your question, keeping up with the jones's, mines bigger then yours, fad, etc. I might even be guilty. Technically it all comes down to how many times you want to stop from speed. And most of the time on a road course with a non race car, the biggest first brake improvement is simply fresh High temp brake fluid, next is decent air ducts to front brakes, and decent pads for the application. And massive oversized brakes will lower a cars driving performance unless we are talking CF rotors, because of rotational mass of huge rotors. If what you got works, just maintain it, and smile at the newest/greatest/biggest crowd.


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