Re: Which would be more fun, and faster? Auto vs. stic
[Re: Dart 340]
#85295
07/07/08 02:22 PM
07/07/08 02:22 PM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 4,233 petaluma,ca. u.s.a.
west
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master
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 4,233
petaluma,ca. u.s.a.
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autos are quicker and more cosistant in the 1/4 mile only. manuals require less stuff and maintnence and are much more efficent on hills and turns. autos are easier to install if the car was originally an auto. I built an auto car,if i did it again it would be a manual.
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Re: Which would be more fun, and faster? Auto vs. stic
[Re: Dart 340]
#85299
07/07/08 06:09 PM
07/07/08 06:09 PM
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 15,134 Kelowna, B.C. Canada
DPelletier
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I Live Here
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Quote:
It's all a matter or preference.
...yep.
Dave
1970 Super Bee 440 Six Pack
1974 'Cuda
2008 Ram 3500 Diesel
2006 Ram 3500 Diesel
2004.5 Ram 2500 Diesel
2003 Ram 3500 Diesel
2006 Durango Limited
[url] http://1970superbee.piczo.com [/url]
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Re: Which would be more fun, and faster? Auto vs. stic
[Re: ScottSmith_Harms]
#85301
07/07/08 09:04 PM
07/07/08 09:04 PM
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
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MAN... obviously some of you dudes never drove a manual valvebody trans car before.
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Re: Which would be more fun, and faster? Auto vs. stick
[Re: Pacnorthcuda]
#85302
07/07/08 09:15 PM
07/07/08 09:15 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 21,318 Manitoba, Canada
DaytonaTurbo
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
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Posts: 21,318
Manitoba, Canada
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Quote:
Trick question. Stick is more fun, Auto is faster.
The thing about this age-old debate is that in almost all cases, low-powered cars are faster in stick form due to parasitic losses of the automatic. High powered cars can afford these losses (the rear tires/suspension usually become the limiting factor)
Manual if more fun but in general auto is faster. If you've got a 500hp car, auto will definitely be faster, but like he said, if you've got a low-powered car, IE more like 300hp, the stick may in fact be faster because of the extra gearing is now worth the time spent shifting. All-in-all no matter what, manual trans is always more fun, but if you're chasing ET's, auto is the way to go.
As for manual valve body autos, I dunno, just something about that conceptually turns me off. I mean what's the point of shifting manually if you don't have a clutch pedal to play with? I thought that was the whole point...
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Re: Which would be more fun, and faster? Auto vs. stic
[Re: DaytonaTurbo]
#85303
07/07/08 09:24 PM
07/07/08 09:24 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 25,200 Upper Midwest
MoparforLife
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Too Many Posts
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Posts: 25,200
Upper Midwest
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Back in the day the 4 speed was deemed faster and rated according to NHRA as such. At that time there were numerous drivers out there both pro and non pro that new how to bang gears keeping the right to the floor and bearly touching the clutch pedal. don't see all that many now. They are there but in the numbers there were back then. Also the autos of the day were not quite as quick shifting as there were not the kits and valve bodies available then as now.
Clean it, if it's Dirty. Oil it, if it Squeaks.
But: Don't fix it, if it Works!
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Re: Which would be more fun, and faster? Auto vs. stic
[Re: MoparforLife]
#85304
07/07/08 10:20 PM
07/07/08 10:20 PM
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 177
440Demon
member
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member
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Posts: 177
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I agree with Scott - I run a "standard" Jamie Passon stick in a BB A body and love it. I had the same choice in front of me when I re-did the car between 02 and 05. Put the stick in and never looked back. Much like six flags, more gears = more fun! John 72440Demon
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Re: Which would be more fun, and faster? Auto vs. stic
[Re: 440Demon]
#85305
07/07/08 10:52 PM
07/07/08 10:52 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 25,200 Upper Midwest
MoparforLife
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 25,200
Upper Midwest
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Quote:
I agree with Scott - I run a "standard" Jamie Passon stick in a BB A body and love it. I had the same choice in front of me when I re-did the car between 02 and 05. Put the stick in and never looked back. Much like six flags, more gears = more fun! John 72440Demon
As you get older the more shiftless you get. I used to like it and knew how and could bang gears too but not no more.
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Re: Which would be more fun, and faster? Auto vs. stick
[Re: Max Rockatansky]
#85307
07/07/08 11:21 PM
07/07/08 11:21 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 42,714 Spokane Washington
ScottSmith_Harms
Mr Wizzard
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Mr Wizzard
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 42,714
Spokane Washington
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Quote:
As you get older the more shiftless you get. I used to like it and knew how and could bang gears too but not no more.
I'm 45, how old do I have to be to get tired of shifting? I'll answer for you, It would be after I'm dead!
I've driven just about every kind of automatic combo out there (manual valve body, reverse manual valve body, SS/DA car with 5,500 stall converters, heck even drove a clutch-flite a few times, remember those?), some are more fun than others and all are easier to drive than a stick, but none have come close to the fun factor a manual offers, not for me anyway.
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Re: Which would be more fun, and faster? Auto vs. stic
[Re: MoparforLife]
#85308
07/07/08 11:24 PM
07/07/08 11:24 PM
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Stick is always going to be more fun. Especially an 833
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Re: Which would be more fun, and faster? Auto vs. stic
#85309
07/07/08 11:32 PM
07/07/08 11:32 PM
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Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,169 clarks summit pa
73cuda340
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,169
clarks summit pa
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4 speed will always be more fun
1973 Cuda 528 all aluminum Hemi, 4 speed, 3.23 Sure-Grip,
(JA5) Silver Frost Metallic
1973 Challenger Rallye 340
1985 W150 Power Ram prospector
1986 Camaro IROC-Z 305 tpi
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Re: Which would be more fun, and faster? Auto vs. stick
[Re: 68Bullit]
#85310
07/08/08 12:52 AM
07/08/08 12:52 AM
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 259 Khemi, Stygia
Mebsuta
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 259
Khemi, Stygia
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Manual all the way. Would not even consider owning an automatic unless I was hurt or had bad knees and couldn't work the clutch and shifter. To date I have never owned any type of vehicle with an automatic, hot-rod or otherwise.
68 Roadrunner. 383 4-spd. Beat up.
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Re: Which would be more fun, and faster? Auto vs. stic
[Re: 73cuda340]
#85311
07/08/08 12:57 AM
07/08/08 12:57 AM
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,159 CT
GTX MATT
master
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master
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Posts: 5,159
CT
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If you go with something with a quick first gear I think you'll like it better. Alot of the advantage of newer cars is the gearing that they get away with because of 5th and 6th speed overdrive. First gear is in the mid 3s:1 and differential is often in the mid to high 4s in these little engined sports cars. You dont need that much torque when youve got all that mechanical advantage on your side.
You think a 225 hp 300 ft lb of torque 302 would have propelled a late 60s Mustang to mid 14s like the 5.0s of the 80s?
3.35 first gear helps those cars alot.
Now I need to pin those needles, got to feel that heat Hear my motor screamin while I'm tearin up the street
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Re: Which would be more fun, and faster? Auto vs. stic
[Re: 68Bullit]
#85312
07/08/08 06:05 PM
07/08/08 06:05 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,788 Hamilton, Ontario Canada
Magnum
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master
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Hamilton, Ontario Canada
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Quote:
Which would be a better investment, the automatic, or 5-spd?
You've already had many responses concerning which is better but I will add another point.
I've watched the prices of Tremecs on the Mustang forums. It's a nice upgrade over the factory Mustang transmission too. As for investment.
Even used, like raced for 6 years used. These are still selling for $1600-$2000 and being sold FAST.
Also the internal rail shift mechanism feels like day one after thousands of miles.
69 Super Bee, 93 Mustang LX, 04 Allure Super
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Re: Which would be more fun, and faster? Auto vs. stic
[Re: Magnum]
#85313
07/08/08 08:27 PM
07/08/08 08:27 PM
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Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 12,481 Chino Valley
RodStRace
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I Live Here
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Chino Valley
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Fun? Open road or playing around hands down the stick. In heavy traffic or trying to remain civil in all conditions, auto. Faster? Well, do you mean quick or fast? Unless you are Ronnie Sox's ghost, the auto is going to be quicker in most cases. Fast is top speed, and I'd have to give the nod to the one that has less powertrain loss (stick). Then you mention that cost or OE is not an issue, but compare the gearing. For the cost of a switch, you could optimize the gearing, so that's moot.
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Re: Which would be more fun, and faster? Auto vs. stic
[Re: RodStRace]
#85314
07/09/08 12:20 PM
07/09/08 12:20 PM
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 15,134 Kelowna, B.C. Canada
DPelletier
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I Live Here
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Quote:
Unless you are Ronnie Sox's ghost, the auto is going to be quicker in most cases.
Yep.
Admittedly, my goals were different than most as I wanted to build a Pure Stock drag car and after very little soul searching, I decided an automatic was a far better choice for me. Aside from the fact that the autos are generally quicker and that the vast majority of PS frontrunners are autos, I also realized the automatic would be easier on the driveline and unibody as well as far more consistent. I also figured it would be deal with traction issues related to the bias ply tires.
Here's an interesting article that talks about the Hurst pistol grip shifted 833 in a '70 V-code SB;
....as far as the OP is concerned, it sounds to me like you'd be happier with the 5 spd.
Dave
1970 Super Bee 440 Six Pack
1974 'Cuda
2008 Ram 3500 Diesel
2006 Ram 3500 Diesel
2004.5 Ram 2500 Diesel
2003 Ram 3500 Diesel
2006 Durango Limited
[url] http://1970superbee.piczo.com [/url]
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Re: Which would be more fun, and faster? Auto vs. stic
[Re: DPelletier]
#85315
07/09/08 01:06 PM
07/09/08 01:06 PM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 457 Hightstown, NJ
njdevil2
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 457
Hightstown, NJ
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I wasn't gonn a weigh in here, but what the heck... Raced '70 Hemi Challenger 4 speed (A/S)& '70 440+6 4 speed Road Runner (C/S), both bracket & class racing. Both were a blast, wheels up (just a little) and after a while, I was REAL consistant with 'em within .05 on most passes. One of the FEW manuals in the bracket class. My streeters, a '70 road runner convert 383 4 speed and my '76 Aspen wagon 360 727 manual automatic, The bird is still a gas to drive, especially since I still drop the hammer on it and abuse it. Love banging the gears and doing that clutchless shift (you manual guys know what I'm talking about). The 727 is a whole different universe. The 1-2 shift always chirps the tires, I can light 'em up most times dry and hit 2nd without a beat, that 2-3 shift hits RIGHT NOW!!! For sheer kicks, go manual. Everyday driving, manual auto. The GV thing is nice, but at what cost? It's gotta be a heavy add-on. Someone has a GM modified OD automatic that fits Mopars and Tremic has the manual just like Passon. I'd opt for the Passon unit, personally.
1970 road runner Convertible 1 of 179
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Re: Which would be more fun, and faster? Auto vs. stic
[Re: mopars4ever]
#85317
07/09/08 01:23 PM
07/09/08 01:23 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 42,714 Spokane Washington
ScottSmith_Harms
Mr Wizzard
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Mr Wizzard
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 42,714
Spokane Washington
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Quote:
nless you are Ronnie Sox's ghost, the auto is going to be quicker in most cases.
Agreed, Ronnie was the best known Mopar 4 speed racer ever as far as I'm concerned, fast and consistant (and it his consistancy is what made him a legend, not just a few quick passes).
So, don't go thinking that he's the only one able to speed shift an 833 (no clutch etc.) it's a learned technique, some can master it, some can't. Few can do it consistantly. Bottom line, stock for stock a 4 speed trans vs an automatic the 4 speed is going to offer the quickest/fastest 1/4 mile speed POTENTIAL, the rest is up to the driver.
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Re: Which would be more fun, and faster? Auto vs. stic
[Re: ScottSmith_Harms]
#85318
07/09/08 01:42 PM
07/09/08 01:42 PM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,327 Glendale, AZ
69L78Nova
Banned. Forever.
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Banned. Forever.
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,327
Glendale, AZ
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Ive converted 3 automatic cars to 4-speeds. After taking them back out to the track, it was discovered that I was as consisatant as the automatic and a couple tenths faster in one car. Never lost the consistency though. And were talking 11-12 second cars. Once you learn the car and run it enough, thees nothing to it. Powershifting is no big deal either. People make it out to be more than it is in the difficulty department
1969 Nova 454/M21/3.31 Mild mid-11 second weekend cruiser
1994 F150 XLT Super Cab 2WD 5.0/4R70W/3.55 (Daily driver)
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Re: Which would be more fun, and faster? Auto vs. stic
[Re: ScottSmith_Harms]
#85319
07/09/08 03:34 PM
07/09/08 03:34 PM
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 15,134 Kelowna, B.C. Canada
DPelletier
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I Live Here
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Kelowna, B.C. Canada
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Quote:
Quote:
nless you are Ronnie Sox's ghost, the auto is going to be quicker in most cases.
Agreed, Ronnie was the best known Mopar 4 speed racer ever as far as I'm concerned, fast and consistant (and it his consistancy is what made him a legend, not just a few quick passes).
So, don't go thinking that he's the only one able to speed shift an 833 (no clutch etc.) it's a learned technique, some can master it, some can't. Few can do it consistantly. Bottom line, stock for stock a 4 speed trans vs an automatic the 4 speed is going to offer the quickest/fastest 1/4 mile speed POTENTIAL, the rest is up to the driver.
Not trying to beat this one to death and I don't dissagree for the most part, but there is only one 4 spd in the top 10 PS cars for a legitimate reason......and it ain't 'cause those guys want to go slower. I will concede that there is undoubtably some improvement in the automatics internals....even on these "stock" cars!
Sure some guys can shift a 833 like it was an extension of themselves and I'm sure the consistency can be learned. I still think my car will be no slower as an automatic and that it will be easier to launch and easier on parts and the unibody.
Dave
1970 Super Bee 440 Six Pack
1974 'Cuda
2008 Ram 3500 Diesel
2006 Ram 3500 Diesel
2004.5 Ram 2500 Diesel
2003 Ram 3500 Diesel
2006 Durango Limited
[url] http://1970superbee.piczo.com [/url]
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Re: Which would be more fun, and faster? Auto vs. stic
[Re: DPelletier]
#85320
07/09/08 03:49 PM
07/09/08 03:49 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 42,714 Spokane Washington
ScottSmith_Harms
Mr Wizzard
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Mr Wizzard
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 42,714
Spokane Washington
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Quote:
Not trying to beat this one to death and I don't dissagree for the most part, but there is only one 4 spd in the top 10 PS cars for a legitimate reason......and it ain't 'cause those guys want to go slower. I will concede that there is undoubtably some improvement in the automatics internals....even on these "stock" cars!
Sure some guys can shift a 833 like it was an extension of themselves and I'm sure the consistency can be learned. I still think my car will be no slower as an automatic and that it will be easier to launch and easier on parts and the unibody.
Dave
Yea, I'm not trying to turn the dead horse into pulp either
But a parting shot....I can only surmise that the REASON most PS (and FAST) cars are automatics is because they want to win races. Any small difference in ET potential gained by running a 4speed would more than likely be covered by consistancy going rounds during a competition.
Not many guys serious about winning will build a purpose built car for PS or FAST by knowingly going in with a consistancy disadvantage challenged by thier lack of the ability to shift and feather the throttle all at the same time.
Those factory tires (not the transmissions) are the real achilles heal for those two classes, a manual trans only complicates the issue of traction, on slicks it would be a different story.
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Re: Which would be more fun, and faster? Auto vs. stic
[Re: DPelletier]
#85321
07/09/08 03:55 PM
07/09/08 03:55 PM
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
Not trying to beat this one to death and I don't dissagree for the most part, but there is only one 4 spd in the top 10 PS cars for a legitimate reason......and it ain't 'cause those guys want to go slower. I will concede that there is undoubtably some improvement in the automatics internals....even on these "stock" cars!
Sure some guys can shift a 833 like it was an extension of themselves and I'm sure the consistency can be learned. I still think my car will be no slower as an automatic and that it will be easier to launch and easier on parts and the unibody.
Dave
I think in the case you are sighting here it is more a matter of fear of not being able to drive the manual vs the easy of the auto.
As said above there is no magic in power shifting. Some of the older guys don't have the reaction time they used to. Some just don't have the coordination, and still others have a shakey left foot at the light under the nervousness or exceitment.
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Re: Which would be more fun, and faster? Auto vs. stic
[Re: 383man]
#85325
07/10/08 03:04 PM
07/10/08 03:04 PM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,261 ILL
mark7171
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,261
ILL
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thats the problem with auto trans you built it up and they loose their functionality. all go or no.
if you are building engines that kick butt than a 4 speed is what you need. then you are the stall. no converter tricks , just gears.
remember the ford 5.0l and camaros SS off the lot. the autos were pooches. the 5-6 speed hauled , and layed tons of rubber.
pulling your way to 3600 rpms, is better than stalling through it.
Last edited by mark7171; 07/10/08 03:13 PM.
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Re: Which would be more fun, and faster? Auto vs. stic
[Re: mark7171]
#85327
07/10/08 08:26 PM
07/10/08 08:26 PM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,327 Glendale, AZ
69L78Nova
Banned. Forever.
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Banned. Forever.
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,327
Glendale, AZ
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Quote:
remember the ford 5.0l and camaros SS off the lot. the autos were pooches. the 5-6 speed hauled , and layed tons of rubber.
Well, you also need to take into consideration the gear ratios of the Ford AOD trans. 2.40, 1.47, 1.00, 0.67 was nothing to write home about in the performance department. The Borg/Warner T5 had much better ratios....1st 2.95 2nd 1.94 3rd 1.34 4th 1.00 5th .625
1969 Nova 454/M21/3.31 Mild mid-11 second weekend cruiser
1994 F150 XLT Super Cab 2WD 5.0/4R70W/3.55 (Daily driver)
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