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Re: Is there a good link on a 383 build on here????
[Re: JohnRR]
#848813
11/09/10 03:20 PM
11/09/10 03:20 PM
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 390
kentucky
superbyrd
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 390
kentucky
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just pointing out the obvious. no aluminum heads,no expensive stroker kit,no special quench compression build(for that matter not much compression at all). high 12's,with only good old fashioned,worthless,low-tech parts that,according to all the magazine gurus,and so-called "experts",swear,preach and contend,that do not work.
if you have the money to spend,the advancements in design,materials,and engineering,have far surpassed the old parts. building a 600HP pump gas motor,that will daily drive is cake,where it wasn't 20 years ago.
just most don't have that money to spend,so,those parts are still out of reach. when i read in a posters thread,"budget",basic rebuild,just a reliable engine without breaking the bank,i try and keep my advice within those confines. it's alot of you guys that start throwing out all the high dollar (and un-needed) expert advice.
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Re: Is there a good link on a 383 build on here????
[Re: BeeFreak]
#848815
11/09/10 04:36 PM
11/09/10 04:36 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
Mr.Yuck
Not enough dumb comments...yet
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Not enough dumb comments...yet
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
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Quote:
I don't know what to think anymore. I don't know what a budget minded engine really is. I figure I can throw maybe 3k at the engine (bottom end) or a little more. I have the complete iron head engine that needs rebuilt, aluminum intake and 750 DP Holley to start with. I really don't want headers on the car I don't think. I plan on boring the engine .30 over. I don't want a slug car that gets whipped by everyone of my buddies cars. They all run slightly warmed 440's that seem to go pretty good. None run 12's though. That's what worries me. How possibly would the same mods to a 383 that most do to a 440 let it run with it. Just doesn't seem right. That's where I started to think about the stroker if it could be done in the price range. I don't take the car to the track. I just run it around town and go on some couple hundred mile cruises every year so it needs to be reliable.
you are right you are not going to run with a 440 with the same mods. That said you can make a 383 run very well. And for 3k you should be able to build a nice running and relable engine. If you don't want to run headers that's fine but you are leaving some hp on the table. Like I said way back all you need is a standard rebuid kit and a mild cam. I suggest the Summit 488 it will work well with what you have. The most important thing is going to be your piston choice. Make sure you get it over 9:1 and you'll be fine. It should run 13's pretty easy.
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Re: Is there a good link on a 383 build on here????
[Re: BeeFreak]
#848816
11/09/10 05:03 PM
11/09/10 05:03 PM
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5,399
Aurora, Colorado
451Mopar
master
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master
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5,399
Aurora, Colorado
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If I get some time I will check out the costs/estimated power. I tend to over spec the requirements because it takes alot more to run 13's at a mile high altitude than at sea-level. Most 15-seconds cars here run 13's at sea-level.
The stroker kits are around $2K, but come with rings, bearings, forged pistons, 4340 crank and rods, ARP rod bolts, and are supposed to be balanced too.
Because rebuilding your stock stroke engine will require pistons, rings, bearings, rod bolts, and balancing, The actual difference in the cost of the stroker is maybe $1,200, (I'll try running the cost numbers later) so it really is the better bang for the buck (stronger components, and 100+ extra CID displacement) if you can afford it. Not to mention the extra displacement is going to make a whole bunch more power and torque.
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Re: Is there a good link on a 383 build on here????
[Re: BeeFreak]
#848818
11/09/10 07:28 PM
11/09/10 07:28 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,531
Jacksonville, FL
Chris2581
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,531
Jacksonville, FL
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FWIW...The 70 Road Runner we still have was run with the STOCK OEM factory short block,heads were cut-.030 and were fitted with street hemi springs.Cam was(and still is) the old street hemi grind,750 Holley DP,TM-6,1 7/8th's Hooker headers,4-speed and 4.10 gears.Timing chain was double roller Zoom and we used a Zoom clutch assy.Tires- M&H stocker tires(I think they are the musclecar line up now) 10.5x28 on 8" wheel,Car ran 12.70's all day long.The fuel pump was a Holley mechanical with a red Holley electric out back with the stock 5/16ths line.Later we went with a 727,and a 4.88 Dana,larger headers and some other stuff(engine stayed the same) and eventually ran 12.25 in Atlanta on a 30 degree night.
Nautilus Racing-
We use Superformance gaskets and Turbo Action converters/products.
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Re: Is there a good link on a 383 build on here????
[Re: Chris2581]
#848819
11/09/10 10:08 PM
11/09/10 10:08 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 9,225
Charleston
sixpackgut
Drag Week Mod Champion
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Drag Week Mod Champion
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 9,225
Charleston
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FWIW, i built my 493 for 5k with carefull shopping and quality machine work. figure it was around 600 hp.
1600 for rotating assembly
2000 for machine work and cam
1200 for edel heads
200 for oiling system
ran 10.50s at 126
this was back in 03 though, but i think i could do it again
Gen 3 power 6.22@110, 9.85@135
Follow @g3hemiswap on instagram
performance only racing, CRT, ultimate converter, superior design concepts, ThumperCarbs
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Re: Is there a good link on a 383 build on here????
[Re: sixpackgut]
#848821
11/09/10 11:34 PM
11/09/10 11:34 PM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 283
Motor City
BeeFreak
OP
enthusiast
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OP
enthusiast
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 283
Motor City
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Quote:
FWIW, i built my 493 for 5k with carefull shopping and quality machine work. figure it was around 600 hp.
1600 for rotating assembly
2000 for machine work and cam
1200 for edel heads
200 for oiling system
ran 10.50s at 126
this was back in 03 though, but i think i could do it again
So where did you get your rotating assembly and heads?
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Re: Is there a good link on a 383 build on here????
[Re: JoesMopar]
#848823
11/10/10 12:47 AM
11/10/10 12:47 AM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,664
IN
ahy
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,664
IN
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Quote:
I see alot of people throwing around head and piston combos. With an open chamber head, aren't you suppose to use a stepped or domed piston to get complete combustion whereas a closed chamber head uses a flat top?
I plan on re-using the 906's with minimal headwork, so is a flat top with a zero deck better or a KB 400 with the dome better?
Yes... to get "quench" with open chamber heads a stepped or dome piston is needed. Quench means the piston almost touches the head... .040" clearance is desired. The KB400 piston could probably support this and would need machined to fit the head for each cylinder. Its time consuming but supports higher CR and better combustion on pump fuel. Worth it? you decide. If you want the best running engine with stock displacement and heads yes.
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Re: Is there a good link on a 383 build on here????
[Re: JohnRR]
#848824
11/10/10 01:02 AM
11/10/10 01:02 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 931
dulcich
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 931
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Quote:
Quote:
On the other post, I take it personally when someone bags on me on my job that I put a lot of work into.
-dulcich
Steve , I'm not bagging on you or your job, I'm bagging on the WESTECH DYNO, I remember before the EMC challange that you would DEFEND the numbers coming from that dyno when they were questioned on this site saying they were accurate. After the 03 EMC challenge it came out that the dyno was giving inflated numbers, I remember reading it in one of the mags, not sure if it was Hot Rod or Popular Hot Rodding , but it seemed to be enough to cause the EMC to stop using it and switch to the COMP facility? Though I can see the switch to the COMP facility making more sense, from a money and logistics/time standpoint .
John, sorry to bag on your EMC engine. I apologize. To me, the same kind of negativity gets kind of old too. I can see from your response that you don't welcome it when it hits close to home. It seems pretty pervasive on this site from some members.
The Westech dyno at the time of the Challenge had a "bubble" in the barometer. The barometer there is a very high-end scientific instrument, so no one expected this kind of problem. Steve Brule at Westech is a textbook obsessive/compulsive, and when it dropped a few months later, he freaked. With his personality, he notices everything, and every detail gnaws on him. He actually had it sent in to a scientific lab after that event.
Consider the fact that Harold Bettes from Superflow was on site, and was all over the dynos, not just for EMC that year, but right from day one. Harold is as straight up as you can get, and I trust him to know the dynos of the company he worked for at the time. His reputation in the industry is impeccable. I really don't like it when someone casts aspersions like they have some insight, when really they have none at all, like you tend to do, on guys I respect.
I have my own dyno now anyway, and will complete the installation in a few weeks, so it doesn't really matter to me that much, but those guys don't deserve the attitude you show. I probably over-reacted, but I have done lots of work with those guys for many years, and it is work. BTW, the EMC has never been held at COMP, so you have your info wrong there too, but state it as fact. Also, FYI, the selection of the host facility of first World, then UNOH was the result much broader considerations than you seem to reason in your mind, again based on what I don't know.
-dulcich
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Re: Is there a good link on a 383 build on here????
[Re: ahy]
#848825
11/10/10 01:05 AM
11/10/10 01:05 AM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,782
USA
JoesMopar
master
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master
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,782
USA
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Quote:
Quote:
I see alot of people throwing around head and piston combos. With an open chamber head, aren't you suppose to use a stepped or domed piston to get complete combustion whereas a closed chamber head uses a flat top?
I plan on re-using the 906's with minimal headwork, so is a flat top with a zero deck better or a KB 400 with the dome better?
Yes... to get "quench" with open chamber heads a stepped or dome piston is needed. Quench means the piston almost touches the head... .040" clearance is desired. The KB400 piston could probably support this and would need machined to fit the head for each cylinder. Its time consuming but supports higher CR and better combustion on pump fuel. Worth it? you decide. If you want the best running engine with stock displacement and heads yes.
So what exactly is the difference between quench and CR? If you increase quench, do you always increase CR at the same time?
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Re: Is there a good link on a 383 build on here????
[Re: 451Mopar]
#848826
11/10/10 05:21 AM
11/10/10 05:21 AM
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5,399
Aurora, Colorado
451Mopar
master
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master
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5,399
Aurora, Colorado
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OK, here is the price comparison I was talking about: 440 Source Stroker Kit = $1997 Includes: Crank, Rods, Pistons, pins, locks rings, main and rod bearings, and balancing. Summits cost for the same Total Seal Moly rings ($113.95 Actually 440 source is cheaper, only $109.95), Clevite "H" series mains bearings ($91.60), and stock rod size Clevite "H" series bearings (103.60) Going with the inexpensive KB pistons ($332.99), and new rod bolts ($61.31) so far we have $674.80 just in parts and no labor. To press in the new rod bolts and recondition the stock rods, labor might be $100, and balancing the engine may be $200+, and I did not even mention the costs of the crank needs to be ground and/or polished and if it needs oversized bearings the cost of the bearing could be alot more. So you could have an easy $974.80+ into shortblock parts/labor, not including the bore/hone of the block. Anyhow you can see the additional cost of the stroker is really only about an extra $1,022.20 and that is not even a good apples to apples comparison, lets throw in the cost of the off-the-shelf ROSS Forged pistons at $664.99. That would add $332 to a comprable 383 built engine using the stock crank and rods, the the cost differential is more like $690.20  So on the bank per buck factor many consider 1HP/$10 a good deal. The $690.20 gets you an extra 101 CID (at 0.030" over stock stroke displacement is 388.46, 4.25" stroker is 489.17 CID), and that should help make alot more horse power, at least better than 1HP/$10 or 69+ HP? I have also done the stock vs. aftermarket cylinder head thing before, and you may be able to do the stock heads for $200-$500 less than Stealth or RPM heads, but unless you can port them yourself and your time and materials have no value, you really don't get much bang for the buck using the stock heads unless you need a pure stock appearance, but that gets killed pretty quick when going after performance. Anyhow, I think that in true costs you end up with something like a 400-425HP 388 cid engine using the stock crank, rods, heads, or a 525-550+ HP stroker with aftermarket heads that only cost about $1,000 to $1,500 extra (about $4,500-$5000 estimate?) Ok, lets hear your opinions.......
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Re: Is there a good link on a 383 build on here????
[Re: JoesMopar]
#848827
11/10/10 08:39 AM
11/10/10 08:39 AM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,664
IN
ahy
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,664
IN
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I see alot of people throwing around head and piston combos. With an open chamber head, aren't you suppose to use a stepped or domed piston to get complete combustion whereas a closed chamber head uses a flat top?
I plan on re-using the 906's with minimal headwork, so is a flat top with a zero deck better or a KB 400 with the dome better?
Yes... to get "quench" with open chamber heads a stepped or dome piston is needed. Quench means the piston almost touches the head... .040" clearance is desired. The KB400 piston could probably support this and would need machined to fit the head for each cylinder. Its time consuming but supports higher CR and better combustion on pump fuel. Worth it? you decide. If you want the best running engine with stock displacement and heads yes.
So what exactly is the difference between quench and CR? If you increase quench, do you always increase CR at the same time?
The benefit of quench is the aggressive stirring and cooling of the mixture where the piston and head come in close contact. The close contact is on part of the piston only. The rest of the piston can be a dish or below deck to lower compression ratio. Quench and CR are different.
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Re: Is there a good link on a 383 build on here????
[Re: dulcich]
#848828
11/10/10 09:35 AM
11/10/10 09:35 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,947
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,947
U.S.S.A.
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Quote:
BTW, the EMC has never been held at COMP, so you have your info wrong there too, but state it as fact. Also, FYI, the selection of the host facility of first World, then UNOH was the result much broader considerations than you seem to reason in your mind, again based on what I don't know.
-dulcich
My mistake, Comp was one of the prelim sites in 2003, I for some reason thought they moved everything there, it's been a number of years and I don't pay any attention to the challenge at all now.
I understand your view on my lack of hoopla for the West Tech numbers. I remember reading and/or hearing how Superflow cal'd all the dynos and I just found it odd that the #1 engine from Detroit picked up something like 50hp, I'm sure you'll correct me if I'm wrong, with nothing more than being bolted on to that dyno.
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Re: Is there a good link on a 383 build on here????
[Re: 451Mopar]
#848829
11/10/10 10:33 AM
11/10/10 10:33 AM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 283
Motor City
BeeFreak
OP
enthusiast
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OP
enthusiast
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 283
Motor City
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Quote:
OK, here is the price comparison I was talking about:
440 Source Stroker Kit = $1997
Includes: Crank, Rods, Pistons, pins, locks rings, main and rod bearings, and balancing.
Summits cost for the same Total Seal Moly rings ($113.95 Actually 440 source is cheaper, only $109.95), Clevite "H" series mains bearings ($91.60), and stock rod size Clevite "H" series bearings (103.60)
Going with the inexpensive KB pistons ($332.99), and new rod bolts ($61.31)
so far we have $674.80 just in parts and no labor.
To press in the new rod bolts and recondition the stock rods, labor might be $100, and balancing the engine may be $200+, and I did not even mention the costs of the crank needs to be ground and/or polished and if it needs oversized bearings the cost of the bearing could be alot more. So you could have an easy $974.80+ into shortblock parts/labor, not including the bore/hone of the block.
Anyhow you can see the additional cost of the stroker is really only about an extra $1,022.20
and that is not even a good apples to apples comparison, lets throw in the cost of the off-the-shelf ROSS Forged pistons at $664.99. That would add $332 to a comprable 383 built engine using the stock crank and rods, the the cost differential is more like $690.20
So on the bank per buck factor many consider 1HP/$10 a good deal. The $690.20 gets you an extra 101 CID (at 0.030" over stock stroke displacement is 388.46, 4.25" stroker is 489.17 CID), and that should help make alot more horse power, at least better than 1HP/$10 or 69+ HP?
I have also done the stock vs. aftermarket cylinder head thing before, and you may be able to do the stock heads for $200-$500 less than Stealth or RPM heads, but unless you can port them yourself and your time and materials have no value, you really don't get much bang for the buck using the stock heads unless you need a pure stock appearance, but that gets killed pretty quick when going after performance.
Anyhow, I think that in true costs you end up with something like a 400-425HP 388 cid engine using the stock crank, rods, heads, or a 525-550+ HP stroker with aftermarket heads that only cost about $1,000 to $1,500 extra (about $4,500-$5000 estimate?)
Ok, lets hear your opinions.......
Thanks for all the info! It hardly makes sense to do anything less than all of it on a 383. With the aftermarket head you lose the stock look that I am wanting to retain but gain a ton of power. That seems to be the biggest thing I need to figure out is the heads. 3k was dreaming unless I want a slug I guess. It's been 20 years since I did any type of rebuild. Back then it was cheaper but not very high tech. At least what we were doing.
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Re: Is there a good link on a 383 build on here????
[Re: BeeFreak]
#848832
11/10/10 03:08 PM
11/10/10 03:08 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,947
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,947
U.S.S.A.
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Quote:
I didn't realize 440 source made those heads and they do look a lot like the iron head. I am guessing the newer books at amazon get into some of the new technology hopefully? Like, How to Build Max-performance Mopar Big Blocks (S-A Design}
I wanted to thank all for their input on this. I guess another question would be. Anyone use the Stealth heads? Look like a pretty nice bolt on.
You have been a member here for 5 years and you have to ask that question ? Don't you know they are the best heads on the planet for a big block mopar .
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