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440 Six Pack - Fast Idle when hot #843025
10/31/10 04:17 PM
10/31/10 04:17 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 292
State of Flux
Dodge Don Offline OP
enthusiast
Dodge Don  Offline OP
enthusiast

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 292
State of Flux
440 Six Pack. 130 miles since full resto. I've noticed that after driving for about 15 minutes when it gets up to 170-180 degrees the idle stays higher at around 1300 RPM. At first I thought the throttle was getting stuck but I see no sticking at all. Any suggestions?

Re: 440 Six Pack - Fast Idle when hot [Re: Dodge Don] #843026
10/31/10 04:19 PM
10/31/10 04:19 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,371
Costa Mesa, CA
C
chache876 Offline
pro stock
chache876  Offline
pro stock
C

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,371
Costa Mesa, CA
vacuum leak? choke lever sticking?

Re: 440 Six Pack - Fast Idle when hot [Re: chache876] #843027
10/31/10 06:00 PM
10/31/10 06:00 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,163
NORTHERN VA
T
THESHAKERPROJECT Offline
super stock
THESHAKERPROJECT  Offline
super stock
T

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,163
NORTHERN VA
Did you check the carb to manifold gaskets ? The ones I have were way too small holding the front and rear carbs open just a bit. If you blocked the heat crossover your choke will take forever to heat up and pull off. Just unhook it to test for this.

Re: 440 Six Pack - Fast Idle when hot [Re: THESHAKERPROJECT] #843028
10/31/10 06:59 PM
10/31/10 06:59 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 8,341
Crook County, ILL
Mastershake340 Offline
master
Mastershake340  Offline
master

Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 8,341
Crook County, ILL
The V code Challenger I bought recently was missing its fast idle solenoid, I had a nearly new one sitting on my shelf, so I bolted it on and plugged it in. After the car warmed up, it would then idle at around 1600 rpm. I then unplugged the fast idle solenoid and haven't had that problem since. Guess I need to brush up on fast idle solenoid adjustments someday!!

Re: 440 Six Pack - Fast Idle when hot [Re: Dodge Don] #843029
10/31/10 09:34 PM
10/31/10 09:34 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 531
Charlotte, NC
Kowal Offline
mopar
Kowal  Offline
mopar

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 531
Charlotte, NC
My guesses...

Vacuum leak, secondary carbs possibly sticking open when hot, float level way off on one carb


'69 Hemi Charger 500, ‘70 U code Challenger R/T
(These and a bunch others at www.dkowal426.com)

P.J. O'Rouke: "The old car ran perfectly, right up until it didn't."
Re: 440 Six Pack - Fast Idle when hot [Re: Kowal] #843030
10/31/10 09:38 PM
10/31/10 09:38 PM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 2,464
Answering the call of the wild
T
ThermoQuad Offline
top fuel
ThermoQuad  Offline
top fuel
T

Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 2,464
Answering the call of the wild
Here is a guide to tune six packs for street engines. Stroker or non stroker, big block or small block

This is not the final word, but close enough

Remember six pak engines run on the center carb and idle on all 3
The car must idle and run like a normal car before attempting any secondary action or wide open throttle passes.

A Good ignition system is required., MSD, Mallory or FBO mopar box, NO orange boxes or chrome boxes unless you know for sure it is early 80’s vintage. Anything made after 1988 is questionable.

Quality distributor cap & rotor
High quality spark plug wires like Firecore 50s
Spark plugs of the proper heat range.

Vacuum adv distributor
The distributor phasing has been checked and corrected as necessary
THIS IS IMPORTANT
Distributor vacuum port on carb disconnected and plugged at carb

Make sure the timing is 15 - 18 deg btdc [advance] at idle. THIS IS IMPORTANT
Set the timing marks at 15 btdc and align the rotor with the cap-this is one reason the phasing was checked.

Car in neutral-auto or 4 sp, emergency brake set.
A good quality vacuum gage is required,
Connect vacuum gauge to manifold vacuum source.

ATTENTION -195 degree thermostat- ATTENTION
THIS IS IMPORTANT
If you run a lower temp thermostat, raw fuel will collect in the intake
That fuel then burns off in the cruise mode.
Unless you have a wideband air fuel meter you will not see this happening, but you will have problems getting it to idle and see the mixture go leaner in the cruise mode.

The heat crossover should be blocked on big & small blocks
Note: in temps below 40 degree it will take a good while to get the car warmed up. Block heaters will eliminate the long warm ups.

Set the outboards idle adj screws out 1/8 turn ccw THIS IS IMPORTANT
Be careful when seating the idle screws to set them, gently is the word
Install the BLACK springs – Just do it, ignore everything else you have read

Set the center carb idle adjustment screws at 1.5 turns out [ccw] THIS IS IMPORTANT

Check the center carb and be sure to adjust the idle screw until the throttle blades are closed and the transfer slot is exposed no larger than a square. [carb would have to be off the car to see this] You only want about .040" of the transfer slots exposed below the throttle plates. If the idle screw is adjusted too high, you will be into the transition circuit, exposing too much of the vertical rectangular slot. Many times the idle screw is adjusted incorrectly to compensate for other issues. This puts the carb into the transition circuit and at that point you have no mixture control on the center carb.
If you have new carbs(untouched) they will have 62 jets in the center carb & a 6.5hg power valve The outboards will have the lead plugs covering the idle adj screws.

Starting point for center carb jetting stock 340 use 62’s, highly modified or stroker use 64’s,
Leave the outboards alone for now unless you have the jetable metering plates, if so read their instructions and follow them
You must know what power valve is in the center carb. Typically a 6.5

Fuel level adjustment THIS IS IMPORTANT, this is best done idling at 1000-1200 rpm
The slotted screw on top of the needle n seat is just a lock screw,
To adj the float level loosen the lock screw to rotate the seat nut,
Turning the adjuster nut counter clockwise will raise fuel level in the bowl, clockwise will lower it
Make only small 1/2 turns.
You must let the car run a 3 or more minutes so the fuel levels off before rechecking level
Center carb the fuel level is at the bottom of the sight plug hole
Secondaries it is just starting to come over the bottom of the sight plug hole
This is critical so get it right.

Set idle to 950 rpm and allow engine to reach operating temp.

Reminder 195 degree thermostat required or fuel will puddle in the intake. .

If the car won’t idle: Is engine vacuum reading at least 2 hg higher than the power valve rating? If ok proceed, if not correct power valve issue and proceed.
Note some engines only pull 5 hg of vacuum so use a 2.5 power valve.

Now set the initial timing to where it wants to be. Somewhere between 10-20 degrees BTDC. The engine will tell you by increasing vacuum and rpm at this point. In some applications the engine does not care, so set it to 12-14 degrees BTDC.
Cams with 106-degree ctrlines seem to like initial timing set at 16-22 BTDC
Cams with 108-degree ctrlines seem to like initial timing set at 12-18 BTDC
Cams with 110-114 degree ctrlines seem to like initial timing set at 8-14 BTDC

Re-Set the idle rpm for 900-See if you have "control" over the idle mixture screws on the ctr carb. Using a good vacuum gage adj center carb mixture to highest reading of vacuum. If you do not have control over the idle mixture you have issues that need to be taken care of before proceeding.

Typically if you have the center carb idle mixture screws between 1 to 2 turns ccw
you do not have to adjust the outboard idle mixture any further. Starting with the front carb, adj the mixture screws one at a time 1/16th turn ccw, after turning each screw wait and see what the engine vacuum and rpm do. Obviously if you have a wideband a-f gauge you will see what is happening.

Beware of issues such as poor intake sealing, carb gaskets backwards, the wrong pcv valve, a vacuum leak from the brake booster or other places, wrong pwr valve etc.

Recheck idle rpm and set to 900

Drive car like a normal person, no wide open throttle. Is the car rich? Jet down 2 steps until you find the min jet size. You will know when you are lean as you will have no power.

Most times you are over jetted.... Do not over jet!
Over jetted carbs will have poor idle control.

Now reset the initial timing again. Somewhere between 10-20 degrees BTDC. The engine will tell you by increasing vacuum and rpm at this point. In some applications the engine does not care, so set it to 15 degrees BTDC.

Re-Set the rpm for 900-See if you have "control" over the idle mixture screws. Using a good vacuum gage adj each mixture screw to highest reading of vacuum. If you have a wideband afr meter set to 14.7

Recheck idle rpm and set to 850

How do you know when you are "there”?
The car will idle at 700-900 rpm in neutral and the response is crisp.
There is no smell of raw gas in the exhaust.
The bottom of the intake is not soaked with fuel. Open a carb and look in
The spark plugs are clean.
The engine when cold starts easily, runs and drives smoothly from the get go.
The engine when hot restarts immediately without touching the throttle.
When the engine is rev’d and the throttle released it immediately returns to idle.

OK if you made it this far it’s time for the Secondaries

The reason you put the black spring is to delay the opening of the secondaries until the engine is ready for it. The engine will run fine on just the center carb till at least 3000 rpm. The air fuel mixture spikes lean when the secondaries open, but at higher rpms this is transparent and has no affect on performance. The opening of the secondaries should be seamless, but very apparent and usually scary to the uninitiated.

The long vacuum hoses for the outboard carbs need to be exactly the same length.

Pulling a vacuum on the hose should make the vacuum pod open the throttle blade and hold a vacuum

The best way to dial in the secondary air fuel ratio is with a wide band air fuel meter.
A fine tuned seatofthepantsometer and spark plug reading will work for the more experienced

If you made it this far and the car is bogging when the six pak opens you need to go back and recheck starting at the top.

Notes:

If the initial timing exceeds 12 degrees BTDC with a MP distributor typically the advance curve will need to be modified so the total timing is not more than 34 degrees BTDC.

Automatic cars with too tight of a converter will cause significant idle rpm drops when in drive, the car will not run at it’s full potential so be sure to use the correct converter for the application.

Some cars like staggered jetting.

Re: 440 Six Pack - Fast Idle when hot [Re: ThermoQuad] #843031
11/01/10 10:59 AM
11/01/10 10:59 AM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 531
Charlotte, NC
Kowal Offline
mopar
Kowal  Offline
mopar

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 531
Charlotte, NC
Nice summary!

I would only add to make sure your secondary carbs operate freely when warm. Sometimes when torqued down too tight or depending on gasket, they will bind slightly, not closing all the way.


'69 Hemi Charger 500, ‘70 U code Challenger R/T
(These and a bunch others at www.dkowal426.com)

P.J. O'Rouke: "The old car ran perfectly, right up until it didn't."
Re: 440 Six Pack - Fast Idle when hot [Re: ThermoQuad] #843032
11/01/10 12:46 PM
11/01/10 12:46 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,436
Blair County,PA
62maxwgn Offline
master
62maxwgn  Offline
master

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,436
Blair County,PA
Quote:

Here is a guide to tune six packs for street engines. Stroker or non stroker, big block or small block

This is not the final word, but close enough

Remember six pak engines run on the center carb and idle on all 3
The car must idle and run like a normal car before attempting any secondary action or wide open throttle passes.

A Good ignition system is required., MSD, Mallory or FBO mopar box, NO orange boxes or chrome boxes unless you know for sure it is early 80’s vintage. Anything made after 1988 is questionable.

Quality distributor cap & rotor
High quality spark plug wires like Firecore 50s
Spark plugs of the proper heat range.

Vacuum adv distributor
The distributor phasing has been checked and corrected as necessary
THIS IS IMPORTANT
Distributor vacuum port on carb disconnected and plugged at carb

Make sure the timing is 15 - 18 deg btdc [advance] at idle. THIS IS IMPORTANT
Set the timing marks at 15 btdc and align the rotor with the cap-this is one reason the phasing was checked.

Car in neutral-auto or 4 sp, emergency brake set.
A good quality vacuum gage is required,
Connect vacuum gauge to manifold vacuum source.

ATTENTION -195 degree thermostat- ATTENTION
THIS IS IMPORTANT
If you run a lower temp thermostat, raw fuel will collect in the intake
That fuel then burns off in the cruise mode.
Unless you have a wideband air fuel meter you will not see this happening, but you will have problems getting it to idle and see the mixture go leaner in the cruise mode.

The heat crossover should be blocked on big & small blocks
Note: in temps below 40 degree it will take a good while to get the car warmed up. Block heaters will eliminate the long warm ups.

Set the outboards idle adj screws out 1/8 turn ccw THIS IS IMPORTANT
Be careful when seating the idle screws to set them, gently is the word
Install the BLACK springs – Just do it, ignore everything else you have read

Set the center carb idle adjustment screws at 1.5 turns out [ccw] THIS IS IMPORTANT

Check the center carb and be sure to adjust the idle screw until the throttle blades are closed and the transfer slot is exposed no larger than a square. [carb would have to be off the car to see this] You only want about .040" of the transfer slots exposed below the throttle plates. If the idle screw is adjusted too high, you will be into the transition circuit, exposing too much of the vertical rectangular slot. Many times the idle screw is adjusted incorrectly to compensate for other issues. This puts the carb into the transition circuit and at that point you have no mixture control on the center carb.
If you have new carbs(untouched) they will have 62 jets in the center carb & a 6.5hg power valve The outboards will have the lead plugs covering the idle adj screws.

Starting point for center carb jetting stock 340 use 62’s, highly modified or stroker use 64’s,
Leave the outboards alone for now unless you have the jetable metering plates, if so read their instructions and follow them
You must know what power valve is in the center carb. Typically a 6.5

Fuel level adjustment THIS IS IMPORTANT, this is best done idling at 1000-1200 rpm
The slotted screw on top of the needle n seat is just a lock screw,
To adj the float level loosen the lock screw to rotate the seat nut,
Turning the adjuster nut counter clockwise will raise fuel level in the bowl, clockwise will lower it
Make only small 1/2 turns.
You must let the car run a 3 or more minutes so the fuel levels off before rechecking level
Center carb the fuel level is at the bottom of the sight plug hole
Secondaries it is just starting to come over the bottom of the sight plug hole
This is critical so get it right.

Set idle to 950 rpm and allow engine to reach operating temp.

Reminder 195 degree thermostat required or fuel will puddle in the intake. .

If the car won’t idle: Is engine vacuum reading at least 2 hg higher than the power valve rating? If ok proceed, if not correct power valve issue and proceed.
Note some engines only pull 5 hg of vacuum so use a 2.5 power valve.

Now set the initial timing to where it wants to be. Somewhere between 10-20 degrees BTDC. The engine will tell you by increasing vacuum and rpm at this point. In some applications the engine does not care, so set it to 12-14 degrees BTDC.
Cams with 106-degree ctrlines seem to like initial timing set at 16-22 BTDC
Cams with 108-degree ctrlines seem to like initial timing set at 12-18 BTDC
Cams with 110-114 degree ctrlines seem to like initial timing set at 8-14 BTDC

Re-Set the idle rpm for 900-See if you have "control" over the idle mixture screws on the ctr carb. Using a good vacuum gage adj center carb mixture to highest reading of vacuum. If you do not have control over the idle mixture you have issues that need to be taken care of before proceeding.

Typically if you have the center carb idle mixture screws between 1 to 2 turns ccw
you do not have to adjust the outboard idle mixture any further. Starting with the front carb, adj the mixture screws one at a time 1/16th turn ccw, after turning each screw wait and see what the engine vacuum and rpm do. Obviously if you have a wideband a-f gauge you will see what is happening.

Beware of issues such as poor intake sealing, carb gaskets backwards, the wrong pcv valve, a vacuum leak from the brake booster or other places, wrong pwr valve etc.

Recheck idle rpm and set to 900

Drive car like a normal person, no wide open throttle. Is the car rich? Jet down 2 steps until you find the min jet size. You will know when you are lean as you will have no power.

Most times you are over jetted.... Do not over jet!
Over jetted carbs will have poor idle control.

Now reset the initial timing again. Somewhere between 10-20 degrees BTDC. The engine will tell you by increasing vacuum and rpm at this point. In some applications the engine does not care, so set it to 15 degrees BTDC.

Re-Set the rpm for 900-See if you have "control" over the idle mixture screws. Using a good vacuum gage adj each mixture screw to highest reading of vacuum. If you have a wideband afr meter set to 14.7

Recheck idle rpm and set to 850

How do you know when you are "there”?
The car will idle at 700-900 rpm in neutral and the response is crisp.
There is no smell of raw gas in the exhaust.
The bottom of the intake is not soaked with fuel. Open a carb and look in
The spark plugs are clean.
The engine when cold starts easily, runs and drives smoothly from the get go.
The engine when hot restarts immediately without touching the throttle.
When the engine is rev’d and the throttle released it immediately returns to idle.

OK if you made it this far it’s time for the Secondaries

The reason you put the black spring is to delay the opening of the secondaries until the engine is ready for it. The engine will run fine on just the center carb till at least 3000 rpm. The air fuel mixture spikes lean when the secondaries open, but at higher rpms this is transparent and has no affect on performance. The opening of the secondaries should be seamless, but very apparent and usually scary to the uninitiated.

The long vacuum hoses for the outboard carbs need to be exactly the same length.

Pulling a vacuum on the hose should make the vacuum pod open the throttle blade and hold a vacuum

The best way to dial in the secondary air fuel ratio is with a wide band air fuel meter.
A fine tuned seatofthepantsometer and spark plug reading will work for the more experienced

If you made it this far and the car is bogging when the six pak opens you need to go back and recheck starting at the top.

Notes:

If the initial timing exceeds 12 degrees BTDC with a MP distributor typically the advance curve will need to be modified so the total timing is not more than 34 degrees BTDC.

Automatic cars with too tight of a converter will cause significant idle rpm drops when in drive, the car will not run at it’s full potential so be sure to use the correct converter for the application.

Some cars like staggered jetting.






Tom,I have a good friend in Eldred who says you make stuff up!

Re: 440 Six Pack - Fast Idle when hot [Re: 62maxwgn] #843033
05/25/11 08:00 AM
05/25/11 08:00 AM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 292
State of Flux
Dodge Don Offline OP
enthusiast
Dodge Don  Offline OP
enthusiast

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 292
State of Flux
Well I thought I had this problem solved when I put her away for winter. The throttle return spring I was using was not correct so I put on a proper 6 pack throttle return spring.

Had it out last night and same thing happens after awhile. Throttle gets stuck with a high idle. Got it home and in the driveway in park I stabbed the gas pedal to get it to settle back to normal idle but then throttle got stuck open at around 2800 RPM....stabbed gas pedal again...4,000 RPM. Shut her down removed air cleaner and pulled the center carb throttle lever back by hand. Fire it up and idles fine. Take her out again and is fine if I take it easy however if I lay on the pedal even half way I'm back to same problem.

Seems like the throttle lever on the center carb is sticking when the engine is hot. I'll be working on it tonight to see if I can figure out what the issue is. Should I or can I lube the throttle lever? I might try backing off the center carb mounting bolts in case they are over torqued? Maybe unhook the rods to the outboard carbs and test to confirm the center carb is the culprit?

Any advice or tips?

Re: 440 Six Pack - Fast Idle when hot [Re: Dodge Don] #843034
05/25/11 09:46 AM
05/25/11 09:46 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
Mr.Yuck Offline
Not enough dumb comments...yet
Mr.Yuck  Offline
Not enough dumb comments...yet

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
I guess a little WD-40 on the shafts and contact points wouldn't hurt...at least you'll see if this is the cause. Sure the carb gasket isn't catching the butterflies?


[IMG]http://i66.tinypic.com/pui5j.jpg[/IMG]
Coming soon!!!!
Re: 440 Six Pack - when hot center carb throttle sticks [Re: Mr.Yuck] #843035
05/25/11 04:51 PM
05/25/11 04:51 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 292
State of Flux
Dodge Don Offline OP
enthusiast
Dodge Don  Offline OP
enthusiast

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 292
State of Flux
Quote:

I guess a little WD-40 on the shafts and contact points wouldn't hurt...at least you'll see if this is the cause. Sure the carb gasket isn't catching the butterflies?




That is one of the things I'll be checking tonight.

Last edited by Dodge Don; 05/25/11 08:29 PM.
Re: 440 Six Pack - when hot center carb throttle sticks [Re: Dodge Don] #843036
05/25/11 08:31 PM
05/25/11 08:31 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 292
State of Flux
Dodge Don Offline OP
enthusiast
Dodge Don  Offline OP
enthusiast

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 292
State of Flux
I checked the butterflies...all clear. Lubed throttle lever, loosened carb mounting bolts a bit and added a second throttle return spring. Warmed her up and too her out for a test drive. I seriously lit her up twice....all seems good now.

Re: 440 Six Pack - when hot center carb throttle sticks [Re: Dodge Don] #843037
03/05/12 12:36 PM
03/05/12 12:36 PM
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 12,008
Finally a HUSKER again
Moparnut426 Offline
I Live Here
Moparnut426  Offline
I Live Here

Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 12,008
Finally a HUSKER again
What is the spec to torque the carbs down to? I can see an issue if they arent evenly bolted down.

Im curious myself.

Kasey







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