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problems with 604" predator motor
#794789
09/06/10 09:19 PM
09/06/10 09:19 PM
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 73
Hartford,MI
goody340g
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Posts: 73
Hartford,MI
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Hey guys i've been out of racing for about 6 yrs but starting to get back into it, and after i stopped racing my dad built a 604" predator motor. He had a local guy build it (kalamazoo,mi), we never had any problems with him in the past, but we put this motor in the car and when u first started it it had oil pressure(20-30 lbs i think, it was about 4yrs ago so can't exactly remember) then when it warmed up no oil pressure. took back to the builder, tore it apart, put it back in, and same thing. so we take it out and take it to muscle motors, they find a couple small things they didn't like but nothing to do with oil pressure, we put it back in car and same thing no oil pressure.  so my dad gets mad and buys a 622" indy and there the predator has set on the shop floor for about 4 yrs. has anybody ever had a problem like this. i think we need a new block, but all the parts were brand new (raised cam mega block). kinda sucks to buy another new block when nobody is sure of the problem. any ideas?
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Re: problems with 604" predator motor
[Re: Dragula]
#794791
09/06/10 09:30 PM
09/06/10 09:30 PM
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Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 528
Oak Grove, MN
lowflyingdart
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 528
Oak Grove, MN
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Check the lifters,they can uncover the oil galley if the lifter bores are not bushed. This usally happens at max lift, the window for the roller can uncover the oil galley and you will losse oil pressure.
"I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work."
Thomas A. Edison
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Re: problems with 604" predator motor
[Re: StrokedW7]
#794793
09/06/10 09:57 PM
09/06/10 09:57 PM
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 73
Hartford,MI
goody340g
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Hartford,MI
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Quote:
Just out of curiosity... Who in Kalamazoo would you trust with a Predator motor?
Randy Rutgers. He built our 511 B1 and 498 Indy motors and we never had any problems with him. and at first we were pissed, thats why we took it to muscle motors. we thought they would fix it no problem. not the case. I don't want people to think i'm trying to bashing either of them. i just want to get it fixed, it makes me sick to see it just setting there. 
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Re: problems with 604" predator motor
[Re: Dragula]
#794794
09/06/10 10:05 PM
09/06/10 10:05 PM
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 73
Hartford,MI
goody340g
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Hartford,MI
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Quote:
There are a lot of places the oil can go....
Are you in possesion of it right now? If not, then you need to resolve that first.
With that said, put it up on a stand and get a drill motor out and spin the oil pump. With the valve covers off, see what's going where..If nothing unusual, the remove the valley tray and take a look there.
it is sitting on our shop floor. i'm pretty sure we did all that before but ur right it would be a good starting point now.
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Re: problems with 604" predator motor
[Re: tjmarcus1]
#794796
09/06/10 10:13 PM
09/06/10 10:13 PM
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 6,446
NJ-USA
HPMike
master
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master
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NJ-USA
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Quote:
i am really surprised that MM didn't find the problem!!!! was he aware of the oil pressure prob.?
I would have thought that an engine of this type would HAVE to have been sorted out on the dyno before leaving the shop. 
MB
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Re: problems with 604" predator motor
[Re: tjmarcus1]
#794798
09/06/10 10:16 PM
09/06/10 10:16 PM
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 73
Hartford,MI
goody340g
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Hartford,MI
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Quote:
i am really surprised that MM didn't find the problem!!!! was he aware of the oil pressure prob.?
yes, that was the reason we took it to them.
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Re: problems with 604" predator motor
[Re: goody340g]
#794799
09/06/10 10:20 PM
09/06/10 10:20 PM
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Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 2,840
Flint, Michigan
B1Fish540
master
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master
Joined: Sep 2008
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Flint, Michigan
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Quote:
Quote:
i am really surprised that MM didn't find the problem!!!! was he aware of the oil pressure prob.?
yes, that was the reason we took it to them.
Thats unacceptable..whats wrong with Mike, anyway..shheesh... 
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Re: problems with 604" predator motor
[Re: HPMike]
#794800
09/06/10 10:30 PM
09/06/10 10:30 PM
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 73
Hartford,MI
goody340g
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Hartford,MI
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Quote:
Quote:
i am really surprised that MM didn't find the problem!!!! was he aware of the oil pressure prob.?
I would have thought that an engine of this type would HAVE to have been sorted out on the dyno before leaving the shop.
yes i would agree with you we should have put it on the dyno. i think my bro. and i wanted to but pops didn't want to. maybe i can talk him into it this go around.
MB
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Re: problems with 604" predator motor
[Re: keelsracing]
#794802
09/06/10 10:41 PM
09/06/10 10:41 PM
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Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 644
Minnesota
Barnstorm
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 644
Minnesota
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I'll send the truck tomorrow. I've gotta run 8.50's for our Rotten Bros. annual....seriously it's probably something simple..2 engine builders see nothing wrong?
The little old lady from Pasadena is back!
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Re: problems with 604" predator motor
[Re: goody340g]
#794803
09/06/10 10:42 PM
09/06/10 10:42 PM
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,443
Maryland
Dads426
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,443
Maryland
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A friend had a similar problem (low pressure) with a World block, although it can happen with any block; the oil passage from the galley to the main journal was drilled incorrectly, or the casting had an inclusion where the oil under pressure was escaping in the crankcase. The only way to find it was to put it on a stand and lube it with a drill, pan removed and a remote oil resevoir to see where the oil was going.
If the valvetrain checks out and there are no blocked oil passages, that would be my next step. BTW, they heard of two occasions where an internal leak from a bad block caused low pressure.
2012 422 Allstars NSS Champion
2013 422 Allstars NSS Champion
2014 422 Allstars NSS Champion
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Re: problems with 604" predator motor
[Re: Dads426]
#794804
09/06/10 10:44 PM
09/06/10 10:44 PM
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 242
Upland, California
Spode
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 242
Upland, California
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heck if its just sitting there holding a door open ill pay for shipping if you dont want it LOL
Last edited by Spode; 09/06/10 10:44 PM.
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Re: problems with 604" predator motor
[Re: Spode]
#794805
09/06/10 11:01 PM
09/06/10 11:01 PM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 10,542
BROOK PARK, OH
WILD BILL
Senior Member of the Junior Dragster Club
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Senior Member of the Junior Dragster Club
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 10,542
BROOK PARK, OH
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Quote:
heck if its just sitting there holding a door open ill pay for shipping if you dont want it LOL
To heck with shipping, I'll come pick it up 
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Re: problems with 604" predator motor
[Re: keelsracing]
#794807
09/07/10 09:33 AM
09/07/10 09:33 AM
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 73
Hartford,MI
goody340g
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Hartford,MI
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Quote:
sorry this may be a dumb question but have to ask this is a raised cam block so how is the oil pump driven and what/whos pump is it?
we tried stock and indy pumps, and they are driven by the dist. gear
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Re: problems with 604" predator motor
[Re: MuscleMike]
#794810
09/07/10 01:39 PM
09/07/10 01:39 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,119
sc
tjmarcus1
top fuel
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top fuel
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Posts: 2,119
sc
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Quote:
As I recall your original engine builder overfilled the block with hard block. The engine has oil pressure on start up but since it does not circulate water with a traditional water pump (block overfilled) the oil gets hot after idleing for 10-15 minutes and looses it viscosity. I believe I suguested you could circulate water thru the heads and run the engine for short periods of time. Or get a new block (that is not overfilled)
Mike @ MM
see! i knew muscle motors was too good not to find a problem 
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Re: problems with 604" predator motor
[Re: RT540]
#794812
09/07/10 04:23 PM
09/07/10 04:23 PM
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 6,295
U.S.
moparniac
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 6,295
U.S.
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I thought there was muratic acid or whatever could eat that stuff out ...
Mopar Performance
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Re: problems with 604" predator motor
[Re: MuscleMike]
#794814
09/07/10 04:36 PM
09/07/10 04:36 PM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 778
Sherwood park, Alberta.
go green
super stock
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Posts: 778
Sherwood park, Alberta.
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Quote:
As I recall your original engine builder overfilled the block with hard block. The engine has oil pressure on start up but since it does not circulate water with a traditional water pump (block overfilled) the oil gets hot after idleing for 10-15 minutes and looses it viscosity. I believe I suguested you could circulate water thru the heads and run the engine for short periods of time. Or get a new block (that is not overfilled)
Mike @ MM
I cant see this being the problem but putting a temp gauge would settle the argument.
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Re: problems with 604" predator motor
[Re: MuscleMike]
#794815
09/07/10 05:07 PM
09/07/10 05:07 PM
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 73
Hartford,MI
goody340g
OP
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Hartford,MI
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Quote:
As I recall your original engine builder overfilled the block with hard block. The engine has oil pressure on start up but since it does not circulate water with a traditional water pump (block overfilled) the oil gets hot after idleing for 10-15 minutes and looses it viscosity. I believe I suguested you could circulate water thru the heads and run the engine for short periods of time. Or get a new block (that is not overfilled)
Mike @ MM
mike talked to dad today and he did say that is what u guys came up with. i don't remember hearing anything about that at the time but i was just half a** helping them anyways. i apoligize if it sounded like i was knocking mm, that was not my intention, i know it is a pain to try a figure out somebody elses mess. i was just trying to pick some brains
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Re: problems with 604" predator motor
[Re: go green]
#794817
09/07/10 06:20 PM
09/07/10 06:20 PM
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 73
Hartford,MI
goody340g
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Hartford,MI
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Quote:
You cant diagnose the problem over the Internet with out a detailed parts list.
What lifter and how much lump on the camshaft.To much lift you might be windowing the lifter skirt to the oil (you should be safe to .470 with most lifters)
When you dropped the engine off did you give them permission to completely disassemble and rebuild the engine ?
Try a different pump ?
Cranking the pump by hand you should see 40 to 50 psi if not the oil should be hosing out from somewhere.
you should only see about a 10 psi drop from cold to hot.
i'll have to look up the specs on the cam, we tried many diff. pumps and gauges. so hopefully next week i'll have time to get it on a stand and prime it to see what the press. is cold
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Re: problems with 604" predator motor
[Re: goody340g]
#794818
09/07/10 06:21 PM
09/07/10 06:21 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 32,394
Quicktree
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 32,394
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Quote:
Quote:
You cant diagnose the problem over the Internet with out a detailed parts list.
What lifter and how much lump on the camshaft.To much lift you might be windowing the lifter skirt to the oil (you should be safe to .470 with most lifters)
When you dropped the engine off did you give them permission to completely disassemble and rebuild the engine ?
Try a different pump ?
Cranking the pump by hand you should see 40 to 50 psi if not the oil should be hosing out from somewhere.
you should only see about a 10 psi drop from cold to hot.
i'll have to look up the specs on the cam, we tried many diff. pumps and gauges. so hopefully next week i'll have time to get it on a stand and prime it to see what the press. is cold
really what does it matter? you already know what the problem is 
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Re: problems with 604" predator motor
[Re: Quicktree]
#794820
09/07/10 08:20 PM
09/07/10 08:20 PM
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 73
Hartford,MI
goody340g
OP
member
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OP
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 73
Hartford,MI
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
You cant diagnose the problem over the Internet with out a detailed parts list.
What lifter and how much lump on the camshaft.To much lift you might be windowing the lifter skirt to the oil (you should be safe to .470 with most lifters)
When you dropped the engine off did you give them permission to completely disassemble and rebuild the engine ?
Try a different pump ?
Cranking the pump by hand you should see 40 to 50 psi if not the oil should be hosing out from somewhere.
you should only see about a 10 psi drop from cold to hot.
i'll have to look up the specs on the cam, we tried many diff. pumps and gauges. so hopefully next week i'll have time to get it on a stand and prime it to see what the press. is cold
really what does it matter? you already know what the problem is
if you r giving new blocks away it doesn't matter, until then we'll exhaust all options 
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Re: problems with 604" predator motor
[Re: goody340g]
#794821
09/07/10 08:41 PM
09/07/10 08:41 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 32,394
Quicktree
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 32,394
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
You cant diagnose the problem over the Internet with out a detailed parts list.
What lifter and how much lump on the camshaft.To much lift you might be windowing the lifter skirt to the oil (you should be safe to .470 with most lifters)
When you dropped the engine off did you give them permission to completely disassemble and rebuild the engine ?
Try a different pump ?
Cranking the pump by hand you should see 40 to 50 psi if not the oil should be hosing out from somewhere.
you should only see about a 10 psi drop from cold to hot.
i'll have to look up the specs on the cam, we tried many diff. pumps and gauges. so hopefully next week i'll have time to get it on a stand and prime it to see what the press. is cold
really what does it matter? you already know what the problem is
if you r giving new blocks away it doesn't matter, until then we'll exhaust all options
I r not giving any blocks away but somebody paid good money to figure out the problem, guess you are smarter than the guys at MM
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Re: problems with 604" predator motor
[Re: go green]
#794825
09/07/10 09:52 PM
09/07/10 09:52 PM
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,910
Eighty Four, PA
B G Racing
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,910
Eighty Four, PA
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A lot more info needs to be provide to conclude or asertain the possible causes.How is the oil pressure on cold startup,how long before the oil pressure drops,what is engine temperture,oil temperture,and what is the cause of the heat? As mentioned is the filled block the issue?What do the bearings look like?A lot of guess work can be avoided by check the above mentioned issues.Oil passage cracks,plugged or restrictions as well as cooling issues can cause similar issues.We have seen one bad main cap,a crack in the block main bore at the oil passage as well the issues at the lifter bores cause the loss of oil pressure.An easy analysis of the fluid tempertures(which get hot first)would be a good start.Check and recheck all oil pickups,pumps,filters.lines and passages.Check and recheck all cooling systems and passages also.We find many issues are caused by simple over looked things. 
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Re: problems with 604" predator motor
[Re: go green]
#794826
09/07/10 09:57 PM
09/07/10 09:57 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,293
Rock Springs
Bob_Coomer
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,293
Rock Springs
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If it was my engine, I would add a few things and run it...What are you going to do junk the block? I would add a oil cooler, probably get the whole thing cheap if you look around. Next I would add alky injection, via Rons Terminator. Its the ultimate in hp over any carb setup. First hand experience says you will pickup substantial e/t with this I assume you already have a sheet metal intake so this would be easy. Make the best with what ya got. The alky will take care of any cooling issues you have. Then the oil cooler will take care of oil temp issue's.
[color:"red"]65 Hemi Belvedere coming soon [/color]
[color:"#00FF00"]557" Indy engine 1.07 60ft 144mph in the 8th 2100 lbs package [/color]
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Re: problems with 604" predator motor
[Re: B1Fish540]
#794830
09/08/10 12:29 AM
09/08/10 12:29 AM
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Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 2,840
Flint, Michigan
B1Fish540
master
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master
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 2,840
Flint, Michigan
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
i am really surprised that MM didn't find the problem!!!! was he aware of the oil pressure prob.?
yes, that was the reason we took it to them.
Thats unacceptable..whats wrong with Mike, anyway..shheesh...
When i ask that i should have also asked: "Is there anything your not telling us?" Sorry Mike, but thanks for your side of the story.
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Re: problems with 604" predator motor
[Re: go green]
#794831
09/08/10 12:37 AM
09/08/10 12:37 AM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,667
Arizona
Chris'sBarracuda
master
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master
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,667
Arizona
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Quote:
Its not the oil viscosity .
Oil weight, or viscosity, refers to how thick or thin the oil is. The temperature requirements set for oil by the Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) is 0 degrees F (low) and 210 degrees F (high). The oil will be stable to the high limit operating zone .Are you suggesting the oil is far exceeding 300 to 400 F ?
That's basically what I was thinking. I can't see the water passages having anything to do with low oil pressure. Especially at start up... It should be up at 80-90+ lbs. There would be no heat in the engine to worry about..
The whole thing makes no sense.. 
Chris.. 
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Re: problems with 604" predator motor
[Re: Eric]
#794833
09/08/10 01:07 AM
09/08/10 01:07 AM
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,049
San Jose Ca.
boatracer572
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,049
San Jose Ca.
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are you pushrod oiling? what lifters? is the block bushed? if so how big are the holes in the bushings? had a similiar prob. that I corrected,my mill was oiling way to much up top.I corrected It with a set of bushings with a.020 hole in the lifter.
Last edited by boatracer572; 09/08/10 01:14 AM.
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Re: problems with 604" predator motor
[Re: boatracer572]
#794834
09/08/10 07:46 PM
09/08/10 07:46 PM
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 73
Hartford,MI
goody340g
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Hartford,MI
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Quote:
are you pushrod oiling? what lifters? is the block bushed? if so how big are the holes in the bushings? had a similiar prob. that I corrected,my mill was oiling way to much up top.I corrected It with a set of bushings with a.020 hole in the lifter.
we are using spray bars, i'm not sure what lifters, blocked is bushed and there are no holes in the bushings.
nice looking motor by the way
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Re: problems with 604" predator motor
[Re: goody340g]
#794835
09/08/10 09:22 PM
09/08/10 09:22 PM
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,049
San Jose Ca.
boatracer572
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,049
San Jose Ca.
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are you useing restrictors in the spray bars?
Last edited by boatracer572; 09/08/10 09:23 PM.
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Re: problems with 604" predator motor
[Re: boatracer572]
#794836
09/08/10 09:34 PM
09/08/10 09:34 PM
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 73
Hartford,MI
goody340g
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Hartford,MI
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Quote:
are you useing restrictors in the spray bars?
don't think so but i'll check tomorrow.
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Re: problems with 604" predator motor
[Re: moparniac]
#794838
09/08/10 10:20 PM
09/08/10 10:20 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,976
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
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Posts: 74,976
U.S.S.A.
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Quote:
I thought there was muratic acid or whatever could eat that stuff out ...
It will also eat the other things in there like the block.
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Re: problems with 604" predator motor
[Re: boatracer572]
#794839
09/09/10 04:03 PM
09/09/10 04:03 PM
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 73
Hartford,MI
goody340g
OP
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Posts: 73
Hartford,MI
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Quote:
are you useing restrictors in the spray bars?
there are 2 bars in each valve cover and only 1 bar(in each valve cover) has a restrictor.
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Re: problems with 604" predator motor
[Re: joshking440]
#794844
09/24/11 10:20 AM
09/24/11 10:20 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 11,709
Portage,michigan
B3422W5
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 11,709
Portage,michigan
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Quote:
Goodson....what the hell are you doin taken that motor to Rutgers..... Hows Ernie and your Dad doing...been a while since I have seen you guys, are you going to Norwalk for the Classic? I see Jacobs is running the points...hit me up
Exactly...as far as i know rutgers does mainly chevy stuff, doesnt have any sort of machine shop of their own, they just send stuff out to be machined and screw stuff together.
I would never take an engine of that magnitude to somebody like that
69 Dart GTS A4 Silver All steel, flat factory hood, 3360race weight
418 BPE factory replacement headed stroker, 565 lift solid cam
Best so far, 10.40 @127 1/4
1.41 best 60 foot
6.60 at 103.90 1/8
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