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GM Beehive Springs #757473
07/25/10 04:51 PM
07/25/10 04:51 PM
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Been digging for info on using the GM 3100 V6 beehive springs on magnum heads, so i need some help from the gurus... If i slap a set of stock magnum heads on a LA roller block with a roller hydraulic of these specs:

Camshaft Technical Details
Intake Valve Lift 1.5
Exhaust Valve Lift 1.5 .480"
.487"
Intake Valve Lift 1.6
Exhaust Valve Lift 1.6 .512"
.520"
Intake Duration at .050"
Exhaust Duration at .050" 208°
214°
Lobe Separation Angle 114
Intake Opening at .050"
Exhaust Opening at .050" -7° BTC
44° BBC
Intake Closing at .050"
Exhaust Closing at .050" 35° ABC
-10° ATC
Min. Suggested Cylinder PSI 165
Sweet Spot RPM 1800 - 5500

Will the gm springs and retainers and magnum valve stem locks work?

Re: GM Beehive Springs [Re: '84 D150 Shorty] #757474
07/25/10 05:28 PM
07/25/10 05:28 PM
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real close to the lunati roller cam patrick suggested for my 88-4v 360 headed 318

lunati 60710 Voodoo roller cam with comp 901-16 springs

258/264
207/213@.050
108/112
.485/.485

not sure about the mag heads and GM spring

like patrick said..may be better to run the hughes springs and 2.2 retainers with mag locks

F.Y.I. on the pre mag heads the comp 901 spring is close on the lunati double spring specs that need machine work to run

comp are a single with damper,drop on with stock seals,covers any lunati SB cam flat or roller

comp specs are within 10 lbs of the lunati doubles and I have been 6200 with the roller cam with no valve float

comp 901-16
seat load 101 lbs @ 1.650"
open 242 lbs @ 1.250"
spring rate 353 lbs/in
coil bind 1.100

not sure of specs on the GM or hughes springs

Re: GM Beehive Springs [Re: scratchnfotraction] #757475
07/25/10 05:32 PM
07/25/10 05:32 PM
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what brand cam are those specs?

did it have any spring specs recomended for the cam?


Re: GM Beehive Springs [Re: scratchnfotraction] #757476
07/25/10 06:57 PM
07/25/10 06:57 PM
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Grand Haven, MI
patrick Offline
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no

my archived post

stock GM springs/retainers with mag locks, you're looking at about .490" max lift capacity.

so you'd need to sink the valves ~.060 or so, or drop the spring pockets that much (not recommended), and you wouldn't have enough seat pressure.

that looks like a hughes grind. you're best off using their recommended spring (the 1110's)

I used hughes #1110 spring (cost the same new as the GM springs) with junkyard 2.2L retainers and magnum locks. on my uncut heads, that got me about 1.60" IH, on a 1.040 coil bind height. I had my valves sunk about .030" or so when I had the heads done to get a little more lift capacity, so I had 1.63" IH, which allows ~.560" lift before coil bind issues, but I'd run into seal to lock clearance at anything above .540"....

Last edited by patrick; 07/25/10 07:01 PM.

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Re: GM Beehive Springs [Re: patrick] #757477
07/25/10 08:31 PM
07/25/10 08:31 PM
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yea..see..what he said

Re: GM Beehive Springs [Re: scratchnfotraction] #757478
07/26/10 10:24 AM
07/26/10 10:24 AM
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Hmmm....so, what kinda specs would a stock LA roller cam have? That was a hughes grind and was the one with the lowest lift... just outta curiosity Patrick, do you know the specs on a STOCK magnum spring?

Re: GM Beehive Springs [Re: '84 D150 Shorty] #757479
07/26/10 12:38 PM
07/26/10 12:38 PM
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from rockauto, here's the specs for the sealed power replacement:

http://info.rockauto.com/SealedPower/VS1456.html

granted, typical installed height is ~1.62". I measured coil bind with a vice and a calipers at 1.1", so that is .52" of travel, or .480-.490" of safe lift capacity.

based on the info given, it calculates to a rate of around 240lb/in, and a seat pressure of ~94 [Email]lbs@1.615"[/Email] IH.

for an aggresive roller like the hughes, you need lots of seat pressure, something in the 120-150lb range, to keep the valve from bouncing when closing.

I'm running a reground LA roller cam in my hybrid roller LA/mag headed 318. Bullet Cams reground it for me, and I spec'd out their HR259/316 lobe for both the intake and exhaust. it's 259 adv, 208@.050, 127@.2 and .316" lobe lift, which calculates to .506 with 1.6 mag rockers. it's been an awesome combo for my heavy (3900lbs w/o driver) 5th ave. pulls as hard as my XE262 equipped 360 that was in there before, but averaging a respectable 17mpg in mixed driving.

with the mags, especially if you do a little clean up work to the bowls and ports, you don't need a split pattern cam. using the same lobe for both will reduce overlap and give you a smoother idle.

Last edited by patrick; 07/26/10 12:45 PM.

1976 Spinnaker White Plymouth Duster, /6 A833OD
1986 Silver/Twilight Blue Chrysler 5th Ave HotRod **SOLD!***
2011 Toxic Orange Dodge Charger R/T
2017 Grand Cherokee Overland
2014 Jeep Cherokee Latitude (holy crap, my daughter is driving)
Re: GM Beehive Springs [Re: patrick] #757480
07/26/10 10:04 PM
07/26/10 10:04 PM
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I have a comp XE268 cam in my 360 with those springs, hit 6000 frequently 6500 even several times and no problems. It is VERY close but I can see daylight between the coils so I just let it go. No valve float and no flat lobes. The heads have stock valve job with nothing but a lap in to check if it was seating all around. I think the theory is great but in reality a lot of lift is lost from the terible pushrod angle in a small block. The comp cam I am running has the same exact lobe lift as yours. My only advise is if you do it check every single spring for coil bind with a solid lifter and adjustable pushrod.


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Re: GM Beehive Springs [Re: HotRodDave] #757481
07/26/10 10:05 PM
07/26/10 10:05 PM
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I actually checked mine with a 1.7 mopar roller rocker and a solid lifter and still could see light from a flash light between every coil.


I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!



Re: GM Beehive Springs [Re: HotRodDave] #757482
07/27/10 08:35 AM
07/27/10 08:35 AM
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yeah, YMMV and all that...my particular heads seemed to be ~.030" short on IH with the stock springs compared to what others have reported....

I guess if you plan on buying new springs, I still vote for the hughes #1110 springs, because they're about the same price ($5.90 for the hughes, $4.73 for the GM thru rockauto, or $6.33 from napa), but gain .045" additional travel before coil bind, and gain like 40-50 lbs of seat pressure...the light seat pressure of the GM springs is fine with a lighter flat tappet lifter, but you might run into issued at high RPM with a heavy roller lifter.

now, I haven't found a source for new 2.2L retainers, so you're stuck with either junkyard parts, way overpriced MP retainers, or the hughes retainers which are about $62/set...the issue is you need retainers for 8mm valve stems....

the hughes retainers claim they add .125" IH...I'd be very suprised at that, as then I'd think you'd have issues with the rocker hitting the retainer before the valve tip. that was the issue I found with using the GM locks on the mag valve to get more IH with the 3.1L GM springs.

Last edited by patrick; 07/27/10 08:38 AM.

1976 Spinnaker White Plymouth Duster, /6 A833OD
1986 Silver/Twilight Blue Chrysler 5th Ave HotRod **SOLD!***
2011 Toxic Orange Dodge Charger R/T
2017 Grand Cherokee Overland
2014 Jeep Cherokee Latitude (holy crap, my daughter is driving)
Re: GM Beehive Springs [Re: patrick] #757483
07/27/10 10:29 AM
07/27/10 10:29 AM
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First off, I'd like thank you to thank you guys for your help and sharing your knowledge! When it comes to the super technical stuff, I am "dumb" but learning so I appreciate the patience!

Ok, so, if I am looking at things right, the gm springs though not adequate for high lift cams do have more seat pressure than stock mag springs? If so, would that add to rpm limit, durability, and HP?

Basically, I am building a junkyard dog. Unfortunately a crazy ex wife, a daughter I love to spoil, and a new wife and stepdaughter I love to spoil (oops I did again, lol) has left me....well...dang near broke! So my goal is more power and realability for cheap cheap cheap! If the gm springs are a little better I will get them from my pullapart here for next to nothing. The magnum heads themselves are only going to cost me 75 bucks from the JY! I am hoping that if I use the mag heads, upgrade the springs a tad, and use my factory roller, I will still see a noticable improvement in performance.

I did find some specs on the factory roller cam in my engine:
Part # 4323239 used in 2bbl 318's from 1985-1986
Lift (I/E) .391/.391. Duration (I/E) .240/.240

So if I understand correctly, the 1.6 rockers on the mag heads will actually give me MORE actual lift right? How do I calculate to see what my lift would be? How does spring rates and seat pressures affect performance? Why don't manufactures use better springs in the first place?

Sorry for all the questions, but when educated peeps like you guys are willin' to teach a dummy like me, well...

Re: GM Beehive Springs [Re: HotRodDave] #757484
07/27/10 10:33 AM
07/27/10 10:33 AM
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Quote:

I have a comp XE268 cam in my 360 with those springs, hit 6000 frequently 6500 even several times and no problems. It is VERY close but I can see daylight between the coils so I just let it go. No valve float and no flat lobes. The heads have stock valve job with nothing but a lap in to check if it was seating all around. I think the theory is great but in reality a lot of lift is lost from the terible pushrod angle in a small block. The comp cam I am running has the same exact lobe lift as yours. My only advise is if you do it check every single spring for coil bind with a solid lifter and adjustable pushrod.




Sorry I was a little unclear, which springs are you using, the gm beehives or the hughes springs?

Re: GM Beehive Springs [Re: '84 D150 Shorty] #757485
07/27/10 10:50 AM
07/27/10 10:50 AM
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increased seat pressure helps with keeping the engine together at high RPM. there's a lot of inertia in those heavy hydraulic roller lifters, and too light of a seat pressure could cause the lifters to bounce when the valve closes at high RPM, causing loss of cyl pressure, and risking damage to the lifter and cam.,

Dave was using the GM springs.

to figure out new lift, take the old lift #, and multiply by 1.0667 (1.6/1.5)

If you want to run the GM springs with mag heads, get your cam reground by bulletcams.com. talk to Tim. I'd use their HR262/300 lobe for both the intake and exhaust. it's 262 adv, 210@.050 lobe lift, 124@.2" lobe lift and .3" lobe lift, which calculates to .480" valve lift. just have them use the stock LSA and ICL that's ground on the cam (the LA's is 112 LSA, 108ICL)

it's slightly less aggressive than the lobe I'm using, their HR259/316 lobe (259 adv, 208@.050, 127@.2, .316" lobe lift), but should give similar performance, which in my mag headed 318 is very healthy.

if you wanted a lumpier idle, and something that is more in the 2200-6500 RPM poweband vs. the idle-5500 RPM powerband that the above cam would give, I'd look at their HR279/288 or HR276/300 lobe.

http://bulletcams.com/Masters/HRlobes.htm

regrind price is $150, and it's about $12-15 each way to ship the cam. one tip, what works good for shipping the cam is a chunk of 3" OD PVC pipe, a glue on PVC cap on 1 end, and a PVC cleanout on the other. wrap the cam in bubblewrap and slide it in.


1976 Spinnaker White Plymouth Duster, /6 A833OD
1986 Silver/Twilight Blue Chrysler 5th Ave HotRod **SOLD!***
2011 Toxic Orange Dodge Charger R/T
2017 Grand Cherokee Overland
2014 Jeep Cherokee Latitude (holy crap, my daughter is driving)
Re: GM Beehive Springs [Re: patrick] #757486
07/28/10 12:40 PM
07/28/10 12:40 PM
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How do they regrind a cam? Do weld new metal on and then recut it?

Re: GM Beehive Springs [Re: '84 D150 Shorty] #757487
07/28/10 12:54 PM
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Quote:

How do they regrind a cam? Do weld new metal on and then recut it?


The grind it "cut". Also is you are going with and cam with a lift close to .490 you will need to cut the guides down.

Re: GM Beehive Springs [Re: '84 D150 Shorty] #757488
07/28/10 01:29 PM
07/28/10 01:29 PM
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Quote:

How do they regrind a cam? Do weld new metal on and then recut it?




the reduce the base circle to gain lift.

and in my experience with mag heads, you don't need to cut guides until you get into the .530" lift range.


1976 Spinnaker White Plymouth Duster, /6 A833OD
1986 Silver/Twilight Blue Chrysler 5th Ave HotRod **SOLD!***
2011 Toxic Orange Dodge Charger R/T
2017 Grand Cherokee Overland
2014 Jeep Cherokee Latitude (holy crap, my daughter is driving)






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