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Re: Fuel Injection vs. Carburetor BB
[Re: Mopar_Rich]
#752140
07/20/10 10:22 AM
07/20/10 10:22 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,947
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,947
U.S.S.A.
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Quote:
Quote:
I'm looking for mainly opinions on this thread, but also the pros and cons of these two setups.
Of course costs is the REALLY big one and which is more simplistic. Seems like you could always take the costs of an EFI system, get a decent carb and put the rest of the money towards other parts of the car.
Any opinions/info is appreciated.
CurYellowBird
I can answer any/all questions you may have about the FAST EFI systems, but here's a quick overview of the EZ-EFI system(s):
EZ-EFI TB Pros:
- Easy to install (bolts on instead of a carb)
- No tuning
- It works as advertised
- Great throttle response
- Good drivability, good mileage, good cold start, user can tune the target A/F ratio table as various points (cruise, WOT, etc)
EZ-EFI (TB type) Cons:
- Does not control timing (you use a standard distributor and ignition box)
- Operates in bank-to-bank mode. Not really a draw back because the injectors are in the throttle body.
- Injectors are in TB (wet manifold). Not as "ideal" as port injection.
- Injector sizes limit HP to 550-600 HP for a single TB- No problem if you run two TBs or use the EZ port injected system.
- Requires an EFI fuel system (but any EFI system would)
- Can only drive up to 8 high-Z injectors.
One newer option is the same EZ-EFI ECU but for port injection manifolds. This option gives you more HP capability (8 injectors instead of 4) and the manifold runs dry.
Pricing:
The 30226-kit Single EZ TB (no fuel system components) $1689.
The 30227-kit (30226 kit + fuel system; pump, filters, regulator, etc.) $1945
The 304155 second TB upgrade kit $850
The 302000 EZ-EFI kit for port injection $825
Hope this helps
www.fastmanefi.com
Rich are these prices directly thru you ? If so does summit get upset because they are selling them for more ?
Also is the EZ setup to run E85 ?
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Re: Fuel Injection vs. Carburetor BB
[Re: Cudajon]
#752142
07/20/10 12:29 PM
07/20/10 12:29 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,938
Sonora CA
Mopar_Rich
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,938
Sonora CA
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Quote:
In the Sept 2010 edition of "Car Craft" under "whats your problem" they document a problem I've noticed for several years. A cammed engine will throw a wideband oxygen sensor off since the overlap can pass unburned fuel into the exhaust. I started out with a LM1 the LM2 and now run a Autometer wideband O2 sensor in my car. At idle it shows 16:1 (top of the scale) but the instant I touch the accelerator it jumps to 14:1. What this means is that any EFI that goes closed loop at idle is going to be riching the mixture to overcome this seemingly lean condition. This is why all EFI systems come with a preloaded map to get you started. My question on the EZ EFI or any other "learning" system, whats it gonna do at idle.
Good question.
You can read lean at idle if you run open exhaust (common training issue for my race buddies) or if the cam has a lot of overlap.
In these situations with the XFI system I don't allow closed loop operation below an RPM where the O2 can be trusted.
The EZ-EFI system is not as user flexible, but it does limit what it does at idle - automatically (it knows the RPM and TPS). This handles the idle conditions of wild motors quiet well.
One last point on the 700 HP HEMI:
A dual throttle body EZ will handle up to 1000 HP and the port injection EZ can handle up to about 800 HP. The reason the port injected is less, is that the injectors must be high-Z and it's hard to find high-Z injectors that are over 65 lbs/hr. The injectors used on the TB EZ are special made high-Z units.
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Re: Fuel Injection vs. Carburetor BB
[Re: Fury Fan]
#752143
07/20/10 12:39 PM
07/20/10 12:39 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 20,462
Eagle, Idaho
Neil
The Doctor is in.
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The Doctor is in.
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 20,462
Eagle, Idaho
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Quote:
How many of you fans of the 'well-tuned' carb have ever put a wideband in your car to see your carb's tuning? I'm betting DaytonaTurbo and only a few others in this thread have done that. 
As long as the plugs read good and the engine runs nice and smooth all the way through the rpm range that's good enough for me.
I know a guy with a 5.0 who has replaced almost all the factory ford EFI parts and bought a very expensive tuning software setup for it. He spends a staggering amount of time fiddling with it (more time chasing imaginary problems, imo) and the car runs the same et's over and over even if the air/fuel ratio and other settings are off a little bit one way or the other. I can sleep well at night knowing my air/fuel ratio is too rich by .01%, but some other people can't I guess.
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Re: Fuel Injection vs. Carburetor BB
[Re: Fury Fan]
#752144
07/20/10 02:00 PM
07/20/10 02:00 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,938
Sonora CA
Mopar_Rich
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,938
Sonora CA
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Quote:
How many of you fans of the 'well-tuned' carb have ever put a wideband in your car to see your carb's tuning? I'm betting DaytonaTurbo and only a few others in this thread have done that.
Well I have done this on customers street cars running 3 circuit Dominators. The idle A/F was pretty good and WOT was dead on, but the cruise ranges were so far off it was scary to think you would even think of cruising like that.
From those experiences I would definitively suggest that a Dominator carb user, that wants to run on the street, invest in a good O2 tuning aid and take the time to figure out how to get the mid cruising range dialed in.
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Re: Fuel Injection vs. Carburetor BB
[Re: cudaboone]
#752145
07/20/10 02:05 PM
07/20/10 02:05 PM
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 571
Beaverton, OR, USA
Alikazam
super gas
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super gas
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 571
Beaverton, OR, USA
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Quote:
WHO is worried about MPG. I want HP. Does fast ez-efi have anything for a 528 aluminum hemi with 700+ HP.
You'd probably need 4 1200 cc/min or larger injectors for that, maybe 1600 cc/min. Not sure if the FAST system would support that but I'm sure there is a way to do it  Unless you went dual EFI TB setup. Just remember the fuel system has to support all that too!
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Re: Fuel Injection vs. Carburetor BB
[Re: POS Dakota]
#752146
07/20/10 02:47 PM
07/20/10 02:47 PM
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Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 2,025
Bucks County, PA
500Stroker
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Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 2,025
Bucks County, PA
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Quote:
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You should post a few vids to show how it starts, runs and drives dave. I would really like to see that. 
That is a sight to see. He reaches in the driver side window to turn the key with his right hand while patting himself on the back with his left. 
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Re: Fuel Injection vs. Carburetor BB
[Re: CurYellowBird]
#752147
07/20/10 04:24 PM
07/20/10 04:24 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
Mr.Yuck
Not enough dumb comments...yet
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Not enough dumb comments...yet
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
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Quote:
Well the pro touring crowd cares about MPG. Sure would suck trying to do long distance driving and having to stop every 150-180 miles (if your lucky) to top off the gas tank.
My goal out of this is power with reliability.
my supercharged 440 67 coronet all 3856 lbs of it managed 15mpg @ 70 mph over 110 miles round trip w/ 3.91's and a 727. w/ a 4 speed it woul have been much better. even at 15mpg that gets me about 300 per tank. My 340 swinger w/ a 750 DP and 3.55's and 727 netted about 17mpg at 70. Both were extremely reliable. It's all in the tune and getting the right carb for your application. Just as it will be if you go EFI. you will need the right set-up and the right tune. It just cost a few dollars more for EFI. BUT hey I spent $2100 on a six-pack so who am I to judge...hahaha. Really if I had the cash to donk of for a complete EFI set-up I'd buy a supercharger with it and push the air down a carb. That's REAL bang for you buck!
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Re: Fuel Injection vs. Carburetor BB
[Re: 500Stroker]
#752148
07/20/10 04:57 PM
07/20/10 04:57 PM
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Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 92
PA
68_CONV_300
member
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member
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 92
PA
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
You should post a few vids to show how it starts, runs and drives dave. I would really like to see that.
That is a sight to see. He reaches in the driver side window to turn the key with his right hand while patting himself on the back with his left.
and what's wrong with that ??? my guess is you will do the same once you install yours
I have about 2 weeks of drive time on my car with the EZ EFI kit. I have to say it was the best $$ I EVER spent on this car ... My coronet project will be getting a port injection kit from FAST
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Re: Fuel Injection vs. Carburetor BB
[Re: Mopar_Rich]
#752149
07/20/10 05:05 PM
07/20/10 05:05 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,947
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,947
U.S.S.A.
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Quote:
I am a WD and dealer for FAST. I also do tech support and training. My prices are better because I sell a lot of this stuff and (I hate to brag) I EARN the discount.
Didn't know that , I thought you were FAST .
You skipped my E85 question though , will the EZ run E85? I have an engine I built that will see very little time for it's intended purpose and it's 12.5 compression. I was going to setup a small fuel cell and run it on E85 the 99.5% of the time it's not doing what I originally built it for and considering the cost of an E85 carb, and the fact that it would be a seperate stand alone system, it won't cost much more to run EZ EFI.
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Re: Fuel Injection vs. Carburetor BB
[Re: DaytonaTurbo]
#752152
01/15/13 12:59 AM
01/15/13 12:59 AM
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Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 3
Western Washington State
aka.Gumby
member
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member
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 3
Western Washington State
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I see that it has been a while since anyone posted in this topic, so I thought I would add a little of my knowledge in here on this topic. I have built a very stout 440 for my 78 Power Wagon. Lots of very good parts and have over built everything so that this thing never breaks. 4340 chromoly H rods, stock stroke, steel crank internal balance, ARP stud kits throughout, Stealth Aluminum heads (fully inspected and cleaned up by my racing machine shop, and more.. Running the Air gap RPM dual plane intake, with the Powerjection III EFI system. While the engine is finished, I am still building the run/test stand for it all. This is where I will break in the engine. As we all know, our ring gears on are on the torque converters, So I will have the fully overhauled and upgraded 727, and the overhauled NP203 full time 4X4 transfer case all assembled together as one big ass unit on this stand. Allowing me to test the tranny, transfer case, and engine, and put them through all of the paces, except the ability to put it under a load. The reason for this post. The Powerjection III does have the ability to run run blended fuels. In the software application that it comes with to run on your computer, there is a section for blended fuels. When I spoke with the people at Profession-Products, I asked about the brown wire that is currently not used, and asked if this was for a blended fuel (alcohol) detector, which he said it was, but had not been developed yet. I then asked can it just be set up manually if I know I am running E85 for example. He said yes, that's what that whole section if for. This, and the Powerjection III's super simplicity were the selling points for me. Gasoline, WILL become scarce and more expensive at some point in time, and having my truck already set up for blended fuels will mean LESS expense in the future. if you plan on running the blended higher alcohol content fuels, you will want to overhaul your fuel delivery system. Since alcohol carried lots of water with it, it's best to replace your 20, 30, 40 year or older fuel lines with good quality stainless steel lines. The Alcohol content and the water will corrode the basic soft steel lines we all have from the factory. This system came with a high pressure pump and regulator that requires a return line back to the tank, which I will have to install as I replace the old lines. E85 is the fuel of the future, and with EFI, at least the Powerjection III system, I can switch back and forth with just the simple selection of a different map. That is NOT something you can do with a carb...ever. Alcohol requires a lot more fuel going into the engine, which on a carb means about 50 to 60% larger jets. So far the only downside to the Powerjection III system is that there is no hand held mapper or tuner. You have to use a laptop / netbook to plug into it to make any of these changes. I'm thinking of building one into my truck or at least have it with me somehow. Once I have the test stand done, tranny rebuilt, and T-case done (doing them all myself as I did the engine), I will post more here about it then. I know Edellbrock has recently come out with their own, which has a nice hand held tuner. All of these other EFI systems have a big brain box that has to be mounted somewhere. Mine has it built in to the throttle body itself, along with the MAP sensor, Idle air valve, throttle position sensor. With connections to water temp, tach signal, power, and to the wide band O2 sensor. but that's it.. I hope it all runs well when I fire it up for the first time. !!!! Rich 
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Re: Fuel Injection vs. Carburetor BB
[Re: Mopar_Rich]
#752153
01/15/13 05:55 PM
01/15/13 05:55 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,395
The Pale Blue Dot
Skeptic
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,395
The Pale Blue Dot
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Quote:
Quote:
I'm looking for mainly opinions on this thread, but also the pros and cons of these two setups.
Of course costs is the REALLY big one and which is more simplistic. Seems like you could always take the costs of an EFI system, get a decent carb and put the rest of the money towards other parts of the car.
Any opinions/info is appreciated.
CurYellowBird
I can answer any/all questions you may have about the FAST EFI systems, but here's a quick overview of the EZ-EFI system(s):
EZ-EFI TB Pros:
- Easy to install (bolts on instead of a carb)
- No tuning
- It works as advertised
- Great throttle response
- Good drivability, good mileage, good cold start, user can tune the target A/F ratio table as various points (cruise, WOT, etc)
EZ-EFI (TB type) Cons:
- Does not control timing (you use a standard distributor and ignition box)
- Operates in bank-to-bank mode. Not really a draw back because the injectors are in the throttle body.
- Injectors are in TB (wet manifold). Not as "ideal" as port injection.
- Injector sizes limit HP to 550-600 HP for a single TB- No problem if you run two TBs or use the EZ port injected system.
- Requires an EFI fuel system (but any EFI system would)
- Can only drive up to 8 high-Z injectors.
One newer option is the same EZ-EFI ECU but for port injection manifolds. This option gives you more HP capability (8 injectors instead of 4) and the manifold runs dry.
Pricing:
The 30226-kit Single EZ TB (no fuel system components) $1689.
The 30227-kit (30226 kit + fuel system; pump, filters, regulator, etc.) $1945
The 304155 second TB upgrade kit $850
The 302000 EZ-EFI kit for port injection $825
Hope this helps
www.fastmanefi.com
I'm an adovcate of EFI, I can't fathom where better fuel control isn't an advantage. That being said How do these systems deal with a tight LSA cam? Most of my exp is with OEM stuff and MAP/Maf systems don't deal well with the low vacuum/erratic pulses of cams with less that 112* CL.
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Re: Fuel Injection vs. Carburetor BB
[Re: Skeptic]
#752155
01/15/13 09:58 PM
01/15/13 09:58 PM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,664
IN
ahy
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,664
IN
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I'm looking for mainly opinions on this thread, but also the pros and cons of these two setups.
Of course costs is the REALLY big one and which is more simplistic. Seems like you could always take the costs of an EFI system, get a decent carb and put the rest of the money towards other parts of the car.
Any opinions/info is appreciated.
CurYellowBird
I can answer any/all questions you may have about the FAST EFI systems, but here's a quick overview of the EZ-EFI system(s):
EZ-EFI TB Pros:
- Easy to install (bolts on instead of a carb)
- No tuning
- It works as advertised
- Great throttle response
- Good drivability, good mileage, good cold start, user can tune the target A/F ratio table as various points (cruise, WOT, etc)
EZ-EFI (TB type) Cons:
- Does not control timing (you use a standard distributor and ignition box)
- Operates in bank-to-bank mode. Not really a draw back because the injectors are in the throttle body.
- Injectors are in TB (wet manifold). Not as "ideal" as port injection.
- Injector sizes limit HP to 550-600 HP for a single TB- No problem if you run two TBs or use the EZ port injected system.
- Requires an EFI fuel system (but any EFI system would)
- Can only drive up to 8 high-Z injectors.
One newer option is the same EZ-EFI ECU but for port injection manifolds. This option gives you more HP capability (8 injectors instead of 4) and the manifold runs dry.
Pricing:
The 30226-kit Single EZ TB (no fuel system components) $1689.
The 30227-kit (30226 kit + fuel system; pump, filters, regulator, etc.) $1945
The 304155 second TB upgrade kit $850
The 302000 EZ-EFI kit for port injection $825
Hope this helps
www.fastmanefi.com
I'm an adovcate of EFI, I can't fathom where better fuel control isn't an advantage. That being said How do these systems deal with a tight LSA cam? Most of my exp is with OEM stuff and MAP/Maf systems don't deal well with the low vacuum/erratic pulses of cams with less that 112* CL.
I'm running the past generation XFI on a 496 wedge with 242@.050 cam on a 108 CL. Its an MM lobe Muscle Motors cam. The XFI handles it fine. Basic tuning procedure is to set the timing roughly right, adjust the throttle close stop screw for low IAC opening and then tweak timing and mixture. Some adjustment of idle "gains" may be needed as well. I got decent idle with around 13" vacuum at 850 RPM.
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Re: Fuel Injection vs. Carburetor BB
[Re: ahy]
#752156
01/15/13 11:42 PM
01/15/13 11:42 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,890
Athens, Greece
Pyper70
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,890
Athens, Greece
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I am a proponent of carb's...I should however that although EFI is a novelty and possibly a wise upgrade for these cars...I can't seem to justify dropping 2000 bucks on a system like that. If its ready to go like a modern 6.1 Hemi and it comes with the engine harness in a kit, then yes...by all means. Most people like their Barry Grants, their Demon's, they Holleys. I have had the latter from that list and it was always a PITA. I want to get in, turn the key, and GO! A majority of have 4bbl motors, some others have the six-pack. A few, and the minority, have dual quads and thats where I stand. I collected parts for 10 years, all new mind you. CH-28, Dual 500 Edelbrocks, the linkages, the throttle cables, etc..I took my time with it while running my 4bbl RPM and 750 Eddy. That carb got me from L.A. to Savannah, Ga in 3 1/2 days, 155 gallons of fuel, 2610 miles of America (Thats 17mpg) What will you get with an EFI, probably not too much better than that on a 440. I don't particularly use elevation as a reason for my purchase. I am 360' above sea level. The most I have traveled here (altitude-wise) is 1200 feet. I typically get 78º-95º weather here when I do take my car out for a drive. Compound all those details now with my car having a Gear Vendors, the HP logs for exhaust, 28" tire, and that I replaced my single carb setup for a Dual Quad setup two years ago. My mpg dropped a little bit because I like to play...and why not? I can keep my foot off the gas and just cruise but almost always I tend to find something/someone to harass while driving her. 15mpg with Dual Quads on a 440....what's more is I invested in a wideband o2 sensor. Stays in the car, hooks up to the ashtray in a pelican case. I can see where I am from 750rpm up to 6000rpm. I have a stickypod so I can record both my RPM and my A/F meter and make adjustments when I get home. $300 on an a/f meter is an investment when you have a single carb but its a necessity when you have two or three carbs to adjust. We can all dial in a motor to a visual base and a timing light but when you drive you need a sniffer. All in all, I have $1000 between my carbs/manifold...tack in the 300 extra for the A/F meter. No extra wires, no added modules to take up space in your engine bay, you can't even see my MSD box and no it's not in the engine bay. Sometimes you need simplicity and ease of use and Carb's have given that to me, given I don't have the privilege to drive my car like many of you Stateside, if I breakdown I can zero in on whats going on quicker than you guys with your EFi, your sensors, and your computers. Thats all my 
Family owned 1969 Charger R/T DualQuad 440/727/GVO/3.55s
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The Offy dual quad tunnel ram means 2 throttle body assemblies and the related $$. I've thought about junkyarding an EFI system together, but I just don't have the time for that and want to get the car running. I've got a pair of AVS carbs, now, so I may just rebuild them and get the calibraion kits. I have a wideband gauge for the car. I was hopeing for more info on the options down the line. 