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Re: What MSD doesn't tell you. [Re: jamesc] #747086 07/13/10 11:11 AM 07/13/10 11:11 AM
Joined: Oct 2007 Posts: 3,877 Oregon hooziewhatsit master
hooziewhatsit master Joined: Oct 2007 Posts: 3,877 Oregon	Quote: i'm not an engineer so i can't speak at that level. most digital stuff wants to see a square wave but afaik they can condition the sine signal and basically make it a square wave. when holley was doing their ignitions i was in close contact with the factory for a number of reasons. there was a change in the management so i ended up dealing with a different person that commented the previous individuals were OK with using a sine wave to trigger the digital but he was against it and felt it MUST be a square wave so you would need a hall effect or similar. i did get a couple hall effect sensors but never installed them as i have never had any problems with the standard sine wave magnetic pickup triggering the ignition. personally i find it hard to believe msd would design their digital ignitions so they only accept a square wave input given that most "triggers" used would probably be sine wave. i would "think" with all the R&D and engineering they have at their disposal they would have designed their digital ignition to accept a sine input but what do i know. on another note imho i wouldn't be using a stock mopar distributor to trigger an ignition of that caliber anyhow as it kinda defeats the purpose. one thing to be cautious of is trigger polarity, get it backwards and they can do all kind of strange things. At higher frequencies, square waves start to look more like sine waves. The important thing is that the sine wave goes above whatever voltage threshold to signal a 'high', and then that it goes below another lower voltage to signal a 'low'. It also has to stay above the 'high' voltage long enough for the electronics to detect it. (Same with the 'low' voltage). As long as these requirements are met, you can feed the electronics with pretty much any shape of wave. If you ever find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck.

Re: What MSD doesn't tell you. [Re: hooziewhatsit] #747087 07/13/10 11:58 AM 07/13/10 11:58 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,436 Oklahoma City OK Cudajon pro stock
Cudajon pro stock Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,436 Oklahoma City OK	Most electronics work fine with a sine wave, square waves are only required where there is a time involved that is read by the length of the wave at the top such as an electronic fuel injector that uses that time to control the length of the pulse for fuel delivery. You have another problem, not the shape of the wave. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4J3K94cRC1c

Re: What MSD doesn't tell you. [Re: CHAPPER] #747088 07/13/10 12:13 PM 07/13/10 12:13 PM
Joined: Mar 2003 Posts: 4,848 Memphis HemiRick master
HemiRick master Joined: Mar 2003 Posts: 4,848 Memphis	Quote: ."trigger polarity...". VERY important! I've been told by many that it makes no difference...BUT, I KNOW from past experiences that MSD must have a color blind person putting the leads in the connectors. I 2nd this, I've had the same issue with my MSD 6. The polarity of the wires from the dist must be right for some units to work... Take care, Rick 68 Coronet R/T 440 & 68 Charger 528 Hemi,and 5 Challengers! 6 cyl, 318, 360, 383, 451

Re: What MSD doesn't tell you. [Re: Cudajon] #747089 07/13/10 12:14 PM 07/13/10 12:14 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 5,875 communist bloc of new jersey J jamesc master
jamesc master J Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 5,875 communist bloc of new jersey	Quote: The important thing is that the sine wave goes above whatever voltage threshold to signal a 'high', and then that it goes below another lower voltage to signal a 'low'. It also has to stay above the 'high' voltage long enough for the electronics to detect it. (Same with the 'low' voltage). exactly, i do believe they can select on which side of the slope it triggers as well. there may be more "noise" considerations with sine but you could get noise on a square system as well.

Re: What MSD doesn't tell you. [Re: Cudajon] #747090 07/13/10 12:29 PM 07/13/10 12:29 PM
Joined: Mar 2006 Posts: 9,910 Eighty Four, PA B G Racing master
B G Racing master Joined: Mar 2006 Posts: 9,910 Eighty Four, PA	Generally we find most ignition problems are caused by interference,incorrect installation,backfeeds from other electronics,poor grounds,resistence, and plain stupidity.Without mentioning any names,we know a guy that destroyed a $30,000 engine cause he was so bright that he programed his racepac system and it would advance the timing 10 degrees for every 1000 rpms,so the initial timing was at 35 degrees at 1000 rpm, you do the math at 8000 rpm.He blame everyone from the engine builder to every parts manufacture involved including MSD.Look at the basics here,distributer was locked and timing was set at 35*(can't change),timing gears and chain is fixed(can't change),ignition box can only be controlled by imput,imput was controlled by racepac.Guess who was the Einstein who had their laptop hook to the racepac.Sometimes basic logic escapes common sence and the "Einstein" wants to bash and blame everyone else.I was at a football game and was watching the band at halftime,when I heard a mother standing near me comment that her son was the tuba player and as I watched him trip and stumble down the field,she commented:"look how bad the band is out of step with my son" [IMG]http://i430.photobucket.com/albums/qq21/ajcasini/max_zpsdppwd9km.jpg[/IMG]

Re: What MSD doesn't tell you. [Re: B G Racing] #747091 07/13/10 12:29 PM 07/13/10 12:29 PM
Joined: Oct 2003 Posts: 7,506 Az Crizila master
Crizila master Joined: Oct 2003 Posts: 7,506 Az	Quote: Quote: I say MSD is so-so because their products suffer from poor QC, as others note, and their support is not so great either. I've had an MSD 6 AL that would 'stop' all of a sudden, then 'start' again, all while I was sitting on the side of the road. I sent the box back and they charged me $50 to 'fix' it. I asked if they found something wrong and they said 'yes'. I asked what and they said (get this...) 'whatever it was that was causing it to stop working'. Sure enough, I continued to have the same problem, only my wallet was $50 lighter. "So-so" is what they get. When they move from Northern Mexico to somewhere where electricity is understood they might get better. Good product,bad quality control like most all big companys today.It's "people problems" there are no conciencious craftsmen in the work place anymore.Look at most every successful manufacture and listen to all the complaints about quality control and service from the end users.. Most the people putting the stuff together today can't even spell craftsman. In todays environment, you don't want to buy anything that comes out of Mexico if you can help it. Fastest 300

Re: What MSD doesn't tell you. [Re: Crizila] #747092 07/13/10 01:17 PM 07/13/10 01:17 PM
Joined: Jun 2010 Posts: 798 Houston TX G GregCon super stock
GregCon super stock G Joined: Jun 2010 Posts: 798 Houston TX	As for "MSD is the most successful so that makes them the best" let me list a few others that would fit into that category: Chevrolet (in the 1960's) Microsoft GE Michael Jackson Jesse Jackson Oprah Winfrey AT&T So we see that the skill of learning how to be sucky and make people still buy your product is not to be confused with 'best'.

Re: What MSD doesn't tell you. [Re: GregCon] #747093 07/13/10 01:39 PM 07/13/10 01:39 PM
Joined: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,890 North Alabama M Monte_Smith master
Monte_Smith master M Joined: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,890 North Alabama	OK, name an ignition system you think is BETTER than MSD and tell us why....not just because you say so. Monte

Re: What MSD doesn't tell you. [Re: Monte_Smith] #747094 07/13/10 01:49 PM 07/13/10 01:49 PM
Joined: Mar 2006 Posts: 9,910 Eighty Four, PA B G Racing master
B G Racing master Joined: Mar 2006 Posts: 9,910 Eighty Four, PA	Quote: OK, name an ignition system you think is BETTER than MSD and tell us why....not just because you say so. Monte W&H Daul Coil and Fairbanks Morse if we were back in the 1950s Just kidding Monte,I want to see if I could sound as stupid as some of the brilliant comments.Barry Grant,Indy,MSD and many others get bashed cause of someones fkups.Usually if someone has a ligitimate claim the manufactures bend over backwards to help.Most issues is caused by frustration and attitudes. [IMG]http://i430.photobucket.com/albums/qq21/ajcasini/max_zpsdppwd9km.jpg[/IMG]

Re: What MSD doesn't tell you. [Re: B G Racing] #747095 07/13/10 01:59 PM 07/13/10 01:59 PM
Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 3,060 Western New York sixpackbee master
sixpackbee master Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 3,060 Western New York	I have been running MSD products for decades. Never had an issue. Even sent an old 7AL in for upgrades and rev limit install and check a 2 Step. They did the upgrades installed a rev limiter and sent a NEW 2 step for the huge sum of 85.00 with shipping. I have also used MSD's with the MP type distributors with zero problems. 1959 Bugeye Sprite 1967 Charger Black L code 1967 Coronet R/T Convert Green 440 auto bought from original owner 1968 Charger R/T Bronze 440 4 spd console AM/FM 1969 Super Bee WM21H B5 A40 D21 N96 1969 Barracuda Formula S 340 Convert pilot car 1969 Hemi Road Runner RM23J D32 Omaha orange 4.10 Dana N96 N85 1970 Super Bee WM23N FE5 V1X 3.91 axle package, N96 1970 Road Runner RM21N B3 V1X D13 1971 MG Midget 1971 Road Runner RM23H GW3, A57 1972 Road Runner RM23P FY1, D21

Re: What MSD doesn't tell you. [Re: sixpackbee] #747096 07/13/10 02:07 PM 07/13/10 02:07 PM
Joined: Mar 2006 Posts: 9,910 Eighty Four, PA B G Racing master
B G Racing master Joined: Mar 2006 Posts: 9,910 Eighty Four, PA	Quote: I have been running MSD products for decades. Never had an issue. Even sent an old 7AL in for upgrades and rev limit install and check a 2 Step. They did the upgrades installed a rev limiter and sent a NEW 2 step for the huge sum of 85.00 with shipping. I have also used MSD's with the MP type distributors with zero problems. I think you are part of a conspiracy put in place by MSD.A sleeper cell do you know any Robert Frost poems hidden in your subliminal mind? [IMG]http://i430.photobucket.com/albums/qq21/ajcasini/max_zpsdppwd9km.jpg[/IMG]

Re: What MSD doesn't tell you. [Re: B G Racing] #747097 07/13/10 02:22 PM 07/13/10 02:22 PM
Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 3,060 Western New York sixpackbee master
sixpackbee master Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 3,060 Western New York	Quote: do you know any Robert Frost poems hidden in your subliminal mind? There was an old man from Kent,..... 1959 Bugeye Sprite 1967 Charger Black L code 1967 Coronet R/T Convert Green 440 auto bought from original owner 1968 Charger R/T Bronze 440 4 spd console AM/FM 1969 Super Bee WM21H B5 A40 D21 N96 1969 Barracuda Formula S 340 Convert pilot car 1969 Hemi Road Runner RM23J D32 Omaha orange 4.10 Dana N96 N85 1970 Super Bee WM23N FE5 V1X 3.91 axle package, N96 1970 Road Runner RM21N B3 V1X D13 1971 MG Midget 1971 Road Runner RM23H GW3, A57 1972 Road Runner RM23P FY1, D21

Re: What MSD doesn't tell you. [Re: B G Racing] #747098 07/13/10 02:27 PM 07/13/10 02:27 PM
Joined: May 2003 Posts: 6,560 Downtown Roebuck Ont Twostick Still wishing...
Twostick Still wishing... Joined: May 2003 Posts: 6,560 Downtown Roebuck Ont	I would be willing to bet the OP's problem is RFI related. RFI from in the distributor cap is being transmitted thru the pick-up wiring to his digital MSD and raising he!! with it. He is sort of correct with the digital signal stuff but if he shields the wires from the pick-up to the box it should work OK. Had the same problem with my Holley EFI ecm. A Hall Effect pick-up would also solve the problem. The reason MSD says he needs a crank trigger is because it isolates the pick-up from the RFI and the box then gets a clean signal. If he was half as smart as he thinks he is he should have figured that out before he bought the other box. Kevin

Re: What MSD doesn't tell you. [Re: B G Racing] #747099 07/13/10 02:29 PM 07/13/10 02:29 PM
Joined: Jun 2010 Posts: 798 Houston TX G GregCon super stock
GregCon super stock G Joined: Jun 2010 Posts: 798 Houston TX	I love the posters who think they can win an argument by calling someone crazy. You guys have it figured out - I have been lying all along about my MSD failures in order to cover up my involvement in the Kennedy/Oswald matter. Now for the adults on this BB.... In a sense, MSD might well be the best aftermarket ignition by default - but that doesn't hold them above criticism. If we use reliability as a main criteria, then just about any OEM offers a better product. I have never seen a contemporary GM, Ford or Mopar ignition fail to produce spark. True, they won't spin to 10,000RPM but that ability doesn't mean much of you can't get to the first 1,000RPM. I'll also bet the ignition provided by a Motronics or FAST box is far better. The truth is the automotive world begs cheapness. When you are selling a box for $500 you won't be able use the best of anything in it. If heavy industry used ignition boxes you'd see $15,000 boxes that never, ever failed.

Re: What MSD doesn't tell you. [Re: GregCon] #747100 07/13/10 02:33 PM 07/13/10 02:33 PM
Joined: Jun 2009 Posts: 705 Michigan H Hemiroid super stock
Hemiroid super stock H Joined: Jun 2009 Posts: 705 Michigan	Quote: I love the posters who think they can win an argument by calling someone crazy. You guys have it figured out - I have been lying all along about my MSD failures in order to cover up my involvement in the Kennedy/Oswald matter. Now for the adults on this BB.... In a sense, MSD might well be the best aftermarket ignition by default - but that doesn't hold them above criticism. If we use reliability as a main criteria, then just about any OEM offers a better product. I have never seen a contemporary GM, Ford or Mopar ignition fail to produce spark. True, they won't spin to 10,000RPM but that ability doesn't mean much of you can't get to the first 1,000RPM. I'll also bet the ignition provided by a Motronics or FAST box is far better. The truth is the automotive world begs cheapness. When you are selling a box for $500 you won't be able use the best of anything in it. If heavy industry used ignition boxes you'd see $15,000 boxes that never, ever failed. If you haven't seem OE ignitions fail and not provide spark then you might want to back out of this discussion due to a lack of information and real world experience.

Re: What MSD doesn't tell you. [Re: GregCon] #747101 07/13/10 02:45 PM 07/13/10 02:45 PM
Joined: Mar 2006 Posts: 9,910 Eighty Four, PA B G Racing master
B G Racing master Joined: Mar 2006 Posts: 9,910 Eighty Four, PA	Quote: I love the posters who think they can win an argument by calling someone crazy. You guys have it figured out - I have been lying all along about my MSD failures in order to cover up my involvement in the Kennedy/Oswald matter. Now for the adults on this BB.... In a sense, MSD might well be the best aftermarket ignition by default - but that doesn't hold them above criticism. If we use reliability as a main criteria, then just about any OEM offers a better product. I have never seen a contemporary GM, Ford or Mopar ignition fail to produce spark. True, they won't spin to 10,000RPM but that ability doesn't mean much of you can't get to the first 1,000RPM. I'll also bet the ignition provided by a Motronics or FAST box is far better. The truth is the automotive world begs cheapness. When you are selling a box for $500 you won't be able use the best of anything in it. If heavy industry used ignition boxes you'd see $15,000 boxes that never, ever failed. At the risk of being imature,we have over 500 units of specialized equipment for construction,mining and tunneling with ECUs that have vary sophisticated functions and have to work in unbelivable conditions.On some $15,000 wouldn't cover the cost of a technician to come from Germany or Sweden to trouble shoot them let alone replace them.I would file it under shtz happens,as nothing is guaranteed to be perfect and last a lifetime.I'am in the "heavy industry" and know the cost of flying in emergency parts and it pales in compariason to "down time" cost. Sorry you don't like our light hearted humor. Last edited by B G Racing; 07/13/10 02:47 PM. [IMG]http://i430.photobucket.com/albums/qq21/ajcasini/max_zpsdppwd9km.jpg[/IMG]

Re: What MSD doesn't tell you. [Re: Hemiroid] #747102 07/13/10 02:52 PM 07/13/10 02:52 PM
Joined: Oct 2004 Posts: 8,165 Left Coast B BobR master
BobR master B Joined: Oct 2004 Posts: 8,165 Left Coast	Quote: Quote: I love the posters who think they can win an argument by calling someone crazy. You guys have it figured out - I have been lying all along about my MSD failures in order to cover up my involvement in the Kennedy/Oswald matter. Now for the adults on this BB.... In a sense, MSD might well be the best aftermarket ignition by default - but that doesn't hold them above criticism. If we use reliability as a main criteria, then just about any OEM offers a better product. I have never seen a contemporary GM, Ford or Mopar ignition fail to produce spark. True, they won't spin to 10,000RPM but that ability doesn't mean much of you can't get to the first 1,000RPM. I'll also bet the ignition provided by a Motronics or FAST box is far better. The truth is the automotive world begs cheapness. When you are selling a box for $500 you won't be able use the best of anything in it. If heavy industry used ignition boxes you'd see $15,000 boxes that never, ever failed. If you haven't seem OE ignitions fail and not provide spark then you might want to back out of this discussion due to a lack of information and real world experience. Beat me to it. Hemi heads are junk for top fuel too. The only reason EVERYONE uses them is because there's nothing better.

Re: What MSD doesn't tell you. [Re: B G Racing] #747103 07/13/10 03:03 PM 07/13/10 03:03 PM
Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 3,060 Western New York sixpackbee master
sixpackbee master Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 3,060 Western New York	At the end of the day it all comes down to "we", corporations as well as indviduals, can not and will not ever bat 100%. There will be some unfortunate folks that get that bad widget that came down the line. If it is one in a thousand that day I would rate that as pretty good. 1959 Bugeye Sprite 1967 Charger Black L code 1967 Coronet R/T Convert Green 440 auto bought from original owner 1968 Charger R/T Bronze 440 4 spd console AM/FM 1969 Super Bee WM21H B5 A40 D21 N96 1969 Barracuda Formula S 340 Convert pilot car 1969 Hemi Road Runner RM23J D32 Omaha orange 4.10 Dana N96 N85 1970 Super Bee WM23N FE5 V1X 3.91 axle package, N96 1970 Road Runner RM21N B3 V1X D13 1971 MG Midget 1971 Road Runner RM23H GW3, A57 1972 Road Runner RM23P FY1, D21

Re: What MSD doesn't tell you. [Re: sixpackbee] #747104 07/13/10 03:10 PM 07/13/10 03:10 PM
Joined: Dec 2008 Posts: 1,200 UK 6 602heavy pro stock
602heavy pro stock 6 Joined: Dec 2008 Posts: 1,200 UK	.....& out of 1 in a 1000 boxes how many are mis diagnosed? , many a time i've swapped out componants to find it was something else , half the complaints on the MSD site should of never been written. BTW , i was a student from hell. Last edited by 602heavy; 07/13/10 03:11 PM.

Re: What MSD doesn't tell you. [Re: sixpackbee] #747105 07/13/10 03:13 PM 07/13/10 03:13 PM
Joined: Oct 2003 Posts: 7,506 Az Crizila master
Crizila master Joined: Oct 2003 Posts: 7,506 Az	Quote: Quote: do you know any Robert Frost poems hidden in your subliminal mind? There was an old man from Kent,..... U mean Nantucket! Fastest 300

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