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Car Quit In The Parking Lot: HELP
#729431
06/20/10 11:21 AM
06/20/10 11:21 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,443
Indiana
YO7_A66
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I was driving the Challenger this morning and I pulled into a parking lot to tune the in-gear idle vacuum. The car ran great and I just finished tweaking the carb and while I was walking around the car, it quit running. There was no hint, it just shut off like a light switch. I had voltage, I had fuel, but I could not do any ignition checks. The car sat for 15 minutes or so while I tried to figure it out and then I started up and it was fine for about 10 seconds then died again. Then about another 15 minutes went by and I tried to start it again and it was a bear to get running and then when it finaly did, it was sputtering and puking and I was fighting to keep it running at 1800rpms or so. Then it just slowly died again. I got my AAA card out and it is now sitting in the garage. My thinking is that the coil or the ECU puked out. Any suggestions? Note: It does not have a ballast and it has a 3 month old "non-ballast" Mallory coil, 4 year old FBO ECU and distributor. I have another old coil and Orange ECU box to test out but I wanted to get some advise before jumping in on it on FATHERS DAY. It was a crapty start for my Fathers day having one of my kids with me and having the whole family watch the car bing loaded onto flat bed, but hopefully my day will get better.  Happy Fathers Day to everyone. Thanks
1970 YO7 A66 [Canadian Export] F8 Challenger
340 (Currently in shop for stroker assy.)
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Re: Car Quit In The Parking Lot: HELP
[Re: Pacnorthcuda]
#729434
06/20/10 12:37 PM
06/20/10 12:37 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
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Indiana
YO7_A66
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No ballast, and the coil is only 3 months old and it is one of the Mallory epoxy coils. I would hope that these last longer than 3 months.
I am charging the battery now since I cranked with it for a long time. I might have some time to check the wires at the bulk head later on today.
thanks
1970 YO7 A66 [Canadian Export] F8 Challenger
340 (Currently in shop for stroker assy.)
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Re: Car Quit In The Parking Lot: HELP
[Re: stumpy]
#729436
06/20/10 01:49 PM
06/20/10 01:49 PM
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,216
Under My Car
Mopar_Country
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Quote:
Why no ballast?
What he said.
Any part can go bad prematurely, I would seriously look at the coil especially if you haven't been running the ballast. The ballast takes over after start to lower the voltage to the ignition system. With no ballast it has been running at full voltage constantly, unless there is a specific reason the ballast has been deleted. I'm certainly no "expert" but I can speak from experiences from owning a lot of Chrysler products in the past 35 years.
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Re: Car Quit In The Parking Lot: HELP
[Re: SomeCarGuy]
#729438
06/20/10 02:09 PM
06/20/10 02:09 PM
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,216
Under My Car
Mopar_Country
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When the engine is running, you can get by fine with a lot less current at the points. That's the purpose of the ballast resistor. If the points were to receive full battery current/voltage at all times, they would only last a few hundred miles before needing replacement. On the same token with the electronic system it protects your coil from premature failure, unless your running aftermarket stuff such as MSD.
At the time of cranking (when the starter is operating), a separate wire gives the points the full 12 volts, bypassing the ballast resistor. When you release the key from "start" to "on", all the power to the points now has to flow through the ballast resistor, preserving the points.
For the .002 second performance gain, it's not worth running your coil at 12+ volts when it's designed for 9v. You wont wreck it right away, but you will shorten it's life.
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Re: Car Quit In The Parking Lot: HELP
[Re: Mopar_Country]
#729439
06/20/10 02:16 PM
06/20/10 02:16 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,443
Indiana
YO7_A66
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OP
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The Mallory coil is designed to run without a ballast and I don't want one. I blew a ballast this spring so I changed to a different coil.
The battery is now charged so I am going to check some voltages.
Thanks for the replies.
1970 YO7 A66 [Canadian Export] F8 Challenger
340 (Currently in shop for stroker assy.)
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Re: Car Quit In The Parking Lot: HELP
[Re: Pacnorthcuda]
#729440
06/20/10 02:54 PM
06/20/10 02:54 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
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Indiana
YO7_A66
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"Blue and green wires very near the brake booster. These spade connections often fail after this much time."
Check out my picture. The blue wire is burned about half an inch back from the connector. Is this my issue? If so, what is the best way to fix it since the wire is potted into the connector?
Thanks
1970 YO7 A66 [Canadian Export] F8 Challenger
340 (Currently in shop for stroker assy.)
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Re: Car Quit In The Parking Lot: HELP
[Re: Mopar_Country]
#729441
06/20/10 02:58 PM
06/20/10 02:58 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,198
Someplace you aren't
SomeCarGuy
I Live Here
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Quote:
When the engine is running, you can get by fine with a lot less current at the points. That's the purpose of the ballast resistor. If the points were to receive full battery current/voltage at all times, they would only last a few hundred miles before needing replacement. On the same token with the electronic system it protects your coil from premature failure, unless your running aftermarket stuff such as MSD.
At the time of cranking (when the starter is operating), a separate wire gives the points the full 12 volts, bypassing the ballast resistor. When you release the key from "start" to "on", all the power to the points now has to flow through the ballast resistor, preserving the points.
For the .002 second performance gain, it's not worth running your coil at 12+ volts when it's designed for 9v. You wont wreck it right away, but you will shorten it's life.
One of the recent Mopar mags had a question about running a 12 volt coil w/o the resistor, the reply was that it would cook the ECU box. Why would that happen? I thought the resistor was to keep the coil from seeing the full voltage?
The car in question had an MSD coil designed to run on 12 volts.
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Re: Car Quit In The Parking Lot: HELP
[Re: YO7_A66]
#729443
06/20/10 03:13 PM
06/20/10 03:13 PM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,759
So Cal
HealthServices
Why would you even post that?
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Why would you even post that?
Joined: Dec 2007
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Easiest way to check is to use a jumper wire from the battery to bypass those wires. If it starts, most likely it is your problem.
Allen
Here's a novel idea, let's not throw a bunch of parts at the car hoping it will fix the problem and instead spend a little time diagnosing it first.
Life was a little easier when I was just a wrench.
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Re: Car Quit In The Parking Lot: HELP
[Re: Mopar_Country]
#729444
06/20/10 03:17 PM
06/20/10 03:17 PM
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Indiana
YO7_A66
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The coil in question does have an internal resistor.
This is a picture of the inside of the bulkhead. This side shows signs of being burnt too.
How can I fix this at the connector or do I need to pull the connector and reroute this wire around the bulkhead?
Thanks
1970 YO7 A66 [Canadian Export] F8 Challenger
340 (Currently in shop for stroker assy.)
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Re: Car Quit In The Parking Lot: HELP
[Re: Mopar_Country]
#729445
06/20/10 03:17 PM
06/20/10 03:17 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,198
Someplace you aren't
SomeCarGuy
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I Live Here
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Quote:
The MSD coil was probably set up with an internal resistor.
That would mean that if you ran the OEM balast that the coil was operating on less than 9 volts, correct?
I'm wondering if I'm cooking the ECU in my car since I jumped the ballast. Blaster 2 coil.
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Re: Car Quit In The Parking Lot: HELP
[Re: buildanother]
#729447
06/20/10 03:51 PM
06/20/10 03:51 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
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Indiana
YO7_A66
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This is my current Mallory non ballast coil.
What is the best/safest way to fix the above burnt ignition feed wire?
Thanks
1970 YO7 A66 [Canadian Export] F8 Challenger
340 (Currently in shop for stroker assy.)
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Re: Car Quit In The Parking Lot: HELP
[Re: stumpy]
#729450
06/20/10 04:08 PM
06/20/10 04:08 PM
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Do the new terminals just press into place on oth connectors?
Bama: I do have another ECU to test but since I found this burnt connector issue, it needs to be fixed first. The inside of the connector (second picture) shows that the blue wire only has a few strands holding it onto the spade due to the burnt sheilding of the wire.
Last edited by YO7_A66; 06/20/10 04:11 PM.
1970 YO7 A66 [Canadian Export] F8 Challenger
340 (Currently in shop for stroker assy.)
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Re: Car Quit In The Parking Lot: HELP
[Re: YO7_A66]
#729452
06/20/10 04:54 PM
06/20/10 04:54 PM
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 12,225
Looking for a way out of Middl...
IMGTX
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The male terminal looks like this.  If you use a pair of needle nose pliers to squeeze it narrower and it will then slide out. and this is the female.  You will need to stick a small screwdriver/metal stick to depress the tab shown on the bottom of the picture. It will then slide out. they are available at Napa or at www.happyterminals.com Hope it helps. Now the reason that wire burnt may very well be from too much current flow to the coil/ignition system. You don't get more power out without more power in. You may want to use a relay to power the ignition system.
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Re: Car Quit In The Parking Lot: HELP
[Re: IMGTX]
#729453
06/20/10 06:23 PM
06/20/10 06:23 PM
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,091
oberlin, Ohio
Rapid340
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Sep 2004
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oberlin, Ohio
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Capacitive discharge ignition systems don't require a ballast resistor. (They may talking about running with their CD ignition box).
1971 Factory Appearing Duster 340 11.000 @ 122 mph
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Re: Car Quit In The Parking Lot: HELP
[Re: Rapid340]
#729454
06/20/10 08:17 PM
06/20/10 08:17 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,443
Indiana
YO7_A66
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I replaced the blue wire that was burned and I made some voltage checks:
Key @ RUN:
Bat: 12.8v
Coil +: 11.9v
ECU: both terminals 12.0v
Dist Connector: 1.85v
Cranking: No visial spark from coil wire
NO START. It did not even try to fire. I pulled my dist cap and all of the tips looked clean.
I am plannin on putting on my old Orange MP ECU and try to restart, but not until tomorrow night.
Any other suggestions are appreciated.
Thanks
Last edited by YO7_A66; 06/20/10 08:40 PM.
1970 YO7 A66 [Canadian Export] F8 Challenger
340 (Currently in shop for stroker assy.)
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Re: Car Quit In The Parking Lot: HELP
[Re: YO7_A66]
#729455
06/20/10 09:57 PM
06/20/10 09:57 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 12,675
Columbia, CT
moper
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I Live Here
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MP distributors use stock pickups. That's behaving like one marginal and then dying. If you have a factory service manual I believe this can be tested.
Well, art is art, isn't it? Still, on the other hand, water is water! And east is east and west is west and if you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce they taste much more like prunes than rhubarb does. Now, uh... Now you tell me what you know.
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Re: Car Quit In The Parking Lot: HELP
[Re: jcastle1]
#729457
06/21/10 06:25 AM
06/21/10 06:25 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
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Indiana
YO7_A66
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I am using the FBO distributor/ECU with the Mallory e-coil.
""MP distributors use stock pickups.""
When I tested the distributor connector when the key was at the RUN position, I only got 1.85v.
What voltage should I be getting at the dist pickup at the RUN position? Is it 12v or is it resisted down?
I have the appropriate voltage to all of the key components as shown above except at the distributor connector.
I believe the problem is either the coil or the ECU. I still have no spark from the coil wire to the top of the distributor.
I swapped out to the MP electronic ignition kit many years ago so my ignition harness is not a 70 unit. Does anyone have a diagram that shows what the blue wire (burned one in my picture) goes to on the MP ignition harness? My 70 manual shows it going to the dash lights and the key-in buzzer.
Thanks
1970 YO7 A66 [Canadian Export] F8 Challenger
340 (Currently in shop for stroker assy.)
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Re: Car Quit In The Parking Lot: HELP
[Re: YO7_A66]
#729458
06/21/10 09:38 AM
06/21/10 09:38 AM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 755
Tempe, AZ
loco340cuda
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Jan 2004
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Tempe, AZ
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Do you have another ECU you can try? I have had a few go bad and they quit working pretty quickly. The first one I had go bad the car started to act up like it was missing a little when I was driving it. I got it home and shut it off. I tried to start the car and had a hard time getting it to start and when I did it would not idle on it own and sounded like it was really out of tune. After two times of starting and dieing the car would not start anymore. I swapped out the ECU and the car fired right up without any more problems. The second one I had go bad was like a light switch. I had driven the car for a couple of years with the ECU box and after a drive one day I parked the car. A couple of days later I go out to the garage to start the car and it would not fire up. After some trouble shooting I figured out it was the ECU box. With the new ECU the car fired right up. So given my past experiences I would try the ECU first. If that does not fix it then it sounds like it is the coil. 
70 Cuda 340 4 speed - now stroked to 416ci (SOLD)
2017 Mustang Shelby GT350
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Re: Car Quit In The Parking Lot: HELP
[Re: loco340cuda]
#729459
06/21/10 09:51 AM
06/21/10 09:51 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,443
Indiana
YO7_A66
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Loco,
Both of those issues sounds just like what happened over the weekend. I do have a spare MP Orange ECU that I will test tonight after I do a resistance check on the pickup coil.
Thank you.
Can anyone confirm what the voltage at the pickup coil should be at the RUN position? Is it 12v or is it resisted down?
Thanks to everyone.
1970 YO7 A66 [Canadian Export] F8 Challenger
340 (Currently in shop for stroker assy.)
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Re: Car Quit In The Parking Lot: HELP
[Re: YO7_A66]
#729460
06/21/10 12:12 PM
06/21/10 12:12 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 12,675
Columbia, CT
moper
I Live Here
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I Live Here
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The test I'm remembering (and it's been a very long time) is for resistance through the pickup. Not voltage.
Well, art is art, isn't it? Still, on the other hand, water is water! And east is east and west is west and if you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce they taste much more like prunes than rhubarb does. Now, uh... Now you tell me what you know.
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Re: Car Quit In The Parking Lot: HELP
[Re: moper]
#729461
06/21/10 12:26 PM
06/21/10 12:26 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
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Indiana
YO7_A66
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David, I found a spec of 150-900ohms thru the pickup coil (which I am going to check tonight), but I was wondering what the voltage would be coming to the pickup coil with the key at RUN just so I can confirm that too. I guess I will know if it starts up that it had enough voltage.  I have 12v going thru two of the pins at the ECU harness but only 1.85v is coming from the ECU (I think that is the source) and getting to the pickup. Thanks for the reply,
1970 YO7 A66 [Canadian Export] F8 Challenger
340 (Currently in shop for stroker assy.)
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Re: Car Quit In The Parking Lot: HELP
[Re: YO7_A66]
#729462
06/21/10 01:26 PM
06/21/10 01:26 PM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,759
So Cal
HealthServices
Why would you even post that?
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Why would you even post that?
Joined: Dec 2007
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I don't believe you will not find a spec for voltage going to the pickup coil as the ECU measures a/c voltage generated from the pulses from magnetic distributor pickup.
Last edited by HealthServices; 06/21/10 01:36 PM.
Allen
Here's a novel idea, let's not throw a bunch of parts at the car hoping it will fix the problem and instead spend a little time diagnosing it first.
Life was a little easier when I was just a wrench.
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Re: Car Quit In The Parking Lot: HELP
[Re: HealthServices]
#729463
06/21/10 01:37 PM
06/21/10 01:37 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,443
Indiana
YO7_A66
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Allen, Thank you for the clarification. 
1970 YO7 A66 [Canadian Export] F8 Challenger
340 (Currently in shop for stroker assy.)
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Re: Car Quit In The Parking Lot: HELP
[Re: YO7_A66]
#729464
06/21/10 01:46 PM
06/21/10 01:46 PM
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Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 135
70Fish
member
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member
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Actually, I might be having some similar issues with my ECU. How do I test that thing out to make sure it's working? Thanks
'70 Barracuda
'94 Harley Davidson FXDWG
Pit Bull named IKE
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Re: Car Quit In The Parking Lot: HELP
[Re: YO7_A66]
#729465
06/21/10 01:59 PM
06/21/10 01:59 PM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,759
So Cal
HealthServices
Why would you even post that?
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Why would you even post that?
Joined: Dec 2007
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Here is a diagram that may help you out. Of course you do not have a resistor so it would be just a wire across there.
Allen
Here's a novel idea, let's not throw a bunch of parts at the car hoping it will fix the problem and instead spend a little time diagnosing it first.
Life was a little easier when I was just a wrench.
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Re: Car Quit In The Parking Lot: HELP
[Re: HealthServices]
#729466
06/21/10 02:34 PM
06/21/10 02:34 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,443
Indiana
YO7_A66
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Allen,
Thank you very much for the schematic.
The burnt wire in the above pictures appears to be the dark blue wire (tracer) #23. I bypassed the bulkhead and wired the two #23's together for the short term as both sides of the bulkhead terminals were damaged.
In my above pictures, there is a green wire right beside the burnt blue one. The schematic that you posted does not show a green wire in the #24 position. Does this just mean that my harness may be a little older/newer than your schematic? I need to trace it just to see where it goes.
Thanks again,
1970 YO7 A66 [Canadian Export] F8 Challenger
340 (Currently in shop for stroker assy.)
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Re: Car Quit In The Parking Lot: HELP
[Re: YO7_A66]
#729468
06/21/10 06:12 PM
06/21/10 06:12 PM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,759
So Cal
HealthServices
Why would you even post that?
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Why would you even post that?
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,759
So Cal
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Quote:
In my above pictures, there is a green wire right beside the burnt blue one. The schematic that you posted does not show a green wire in the #24 position. Does this just mean that my harness may be a little older/newer than your schematic? I need to trace it just to see where it goes.
Engine side goes to horns, pass side goes to horn relay, sometimes all that extra wiring gets people confused so i just blank it out.
Last edited by HealthServices; 06/21/10 06:22 PM.
Allen
Here's a novel idea, let's not throw a bunch of parts at the car hoping it will fix the problem and instead spend a little time diagnosing it first.
Life was a little easier when I was just a wrench.
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Re: Car Quit In The Parking Lot: HELP
[Re: Mopar_Country]
#729469
06/21/10 06:16 PM
06/21/10 06:16 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
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Indiana
YO7_A66
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MC: Yes and thank you.
UPDATE:
I checked the resistance at the coil pickup and it read 282ohms which is in the range that I found of 150-900ohms.
Then I replaced the ECU with my spare and no change, no spark from the coil wire. Then I took both ECU's to my local parts store and they tested each one 6 times and they were both tested as good parts.
Is my coil fried?
I checked the resistance across the pos/neg terminals and it read .4ohms. ???
Thanks again,
1970 YO7 A66 [Canadian Export] F8 Challenger
340 (Currently in shop for stroker assy.)
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Re: Car Quit In The Parking Lot: HELP
[Re: YO7_A66]
#729471
06/21/10 06:46 PM
06/21/10 06:46 PM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,759
So Cal
HealthServices
Why would you even post that?
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Why would you even post that?
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,759
So Cal
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I would call up mallory for that spec since the coil has a internal resistor.
Seems a really low.
Allen
Here's a novel idea, let's not throw a bunch of parts at the car hoping it will fix the problem and instead spend a little time diagnosing it first.
Life was a little easier when I was just a wrench.
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Re: Car Quit In The Parking Lot: HELP
[Re: HealthServices]
#729472
06/21/10 07:08 PM
06/21/10 07:08 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,443
Indiana
YO7_A66
OP
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OP
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Health, http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MAA-30450/ 3) .4 ohms 4) 9.1 kohms 5) 9.1 kohms I have a question for you with the RUN voltage at the ECU. I turned the key to the RUN position and then I took voltage readings at the ECU harness and I only found 12v at the #1 position. Is this correct? Thank you for your help.
1970 YO7 A66 [Canadian Export] F8 Challenger
340 (Currently in shop for stroker assy.)
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Re: Car Quit In The Parking Lot: HELP
[Re: YO7_A66]
#729473
06/21/10 07:32 PM
06/21/10 07:32 PM
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,216
Under My Car
Mopar_Country
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,216
Under My Car
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The list I have gives no readings for that coil for some reason, maybe because it is the epoxy series coil. Some of the other numbers I have are right in line with what you are showing.
The voltage at the ECU should be at least 8v in the run position and within .5v of the battery voltage when cranking.
I'm beginning to wonder if it might be the pickup in the dizzy.
Last edited by Mopar Country; 06/21/10 07:43 PM.
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Re: Car Quit In The Parking Lot: HELP
[Re: YO7_A66]
#729474
06/21/10 07:49 PM
06/21/10 07:49 PM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,759
So Cal
HealthServices
Why would you even post that?
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Why would you even post that?
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,759
So Cal
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Quote:
I have a question for you with the RUN voltage at the ECU. I turned the key to the RUN position and then I took voltage readings at the ECU harness and I only found 12v at the #1 position. Is this correct?
It should be battery voltage but some lost is normal. 12 volts is not going to prevent you from starting the car. To check and see if you have voltage when cranking, (yes run voltage is off when cranking) remove the starter signal wire (should be the yellow wire) to the relay for testing purposes, then turn the key to crank and read the voltage.
Last edited by HealthServices; 06/21/10 08:03 PM.
Allen
Here's a novel idea, let's not throw a bunch of parts at the car hoping it will fix the problem and instead spend a little time diagnosing it first.
Life was a little easier when I was just a wrench.
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Re: Car Quit In The Parking Lot: HELP
[Re: HealthServices]
#729475
06/21/10 08:18 PM
06/21/10 08:18 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,443
Indiana
YO7_A66
OP
master
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OP
master
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Indiana
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My bat is wearing down a touch but voltage at the coil and at the #1 ecu were both at 11+ volts at cranking.
1970 YO7 A66 [Canadian Export] F8 Challenger
340 (Currently in shop for stroker assy.)
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Re: Car Quit In The Parking Lot: HELP
[Re: YO7_A66]
#729476
06/21/10 08:25 PM
06/21/10 08:25 PM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,759
So Cal
HealthServices
Why would you even post that?
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Why would you even post that?
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,759
So Cal
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Well it looks like your issue is one of 4 things...
coil (you are checking the spark at the coil not the plug so the rotor, cap and wires ares not currently the issue)
distributor (as in pickup)
ECU
Or wiring between the three (or ground) but not back to the firewall since you have voltage in the crank and in the run positions at the coil.
You mention you had the ECUs checked.
Allen
Here's a novel idea, let's not throw a bunch of parts at the car hoping it will fix the problem and instead spend a little time diagnosing it first.
Life was a little easier when I was just a wrench.
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Re: Car Quit In The Parking Lot: HELP
[Re: Mopar_Country]
#729478
06/21/10 10:16 PM
06/21/10 10:16 PM
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YO7_A66
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OP
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Health:
Yes on the two ECU's tested at the store, coil and ECU are getting correct voltage at RUN and CRANK.
I have not tested the wiring from the ECU back thru to the firewall though. I better put that on my list, but I am assuming that it is good since the ECU and Coil are getting the required voltage.
Thank you very much,
MC,
The pickup coil was checked at 282ohms.
""crank the engine if the distributor is in, spin the shaft if it is out.""
Can you please explain this for me? Thanks
I need to check the reluctor gap. It has been a while since I did this.
Thank you very much,
1970 YO7 A66 [Canadian Export] F8 Challenger
340 (Currently in shop for stroker assy.)
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Re: Car Quit In The Parking Lot: HELP
[Re: Mopar_Country]
#729480
06/21/10 11:09 PM
06/21/10 11:09 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
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Indiana
YO7_A66
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OP
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I understand now. I thought that the lower the resistance the better. I am done tonight but I will buy a new pickup coil tomorrow on my way home from work just in case the AC is too low. I need to spin the motor by hand and watch to make sure the dist rotor is moving too. It appears that I need to focus on the internals of the dist tomorrow night. Thanks a bunch.
1970 YO7 A66 [Canadian Export] F8 Challenger
340 (Currently in shop for stroker assy.)
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Re: Car Quit In The Parking Lot: HELP
[Re: HealthServices]
#729483
06/22/10 06:32 AM
06/22/10 06:32 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
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Indiana
YO7_A66
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OP
master
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MC & HS:
The pickup coil should be cheap and they are on my way home.
Tonight's hit list:
check the new pickup coil for resistance
rotate motor to see if dist moves
spin dist for existing AC voltage
check existing pickup/reluctor gap
replace pickup coil if bad
Thank you very much.
Note: I can pickup this MP804 at my local NAPA and have it with me if I need it. I know that the picture is a tad off but I will inspect the new part for the 90 degree mounting tabs before I buy it.
1970 YO7 A66 [Canadian Export] F8 Challenger
340 (Currently in shop for stroker assy.)
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Re: Car Quit In The Parking Lot: HELP
[Re: Mopar_Country]
#729485
06/22/10 08:03 AM
06/22/10 08:03 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
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Indiana
YO7_A66
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OP
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Thank you again MC. I just read an article that explained the workings of the ignition systems for guys like me who are trying to understand it. This is a simple description of what it read: Motor turns distributor shaft Reluctor spins with distributor shaft which activates the pickup coil Pickup coil sends signal to ECU (every time one of the 8 reluctor points pass by the pickup coil) ECU sends signal to coil Coil sends signal to top of distributor cap Cap sends signal to plug wires Since I have voltage at the ECU and at the Coil during the RUN and the START circuits, but I have no spark at the cap, then it is starting to make sense that the trigger (pickup coil) is not telling the rest of the ignition system what to do, as long as the distributor is moving with the engine. I love this stuff!! Thanks to all again. I will report back as soon as I get a chance to test the distributor.
Last edited by YO7_A66; 06/22/10 09:03 AM.
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Re: Car Quit In The Parking Lot: HELP
[Re: CANDK]
#729487
06/22/10 10:53 AM
06/22/10 10:53 AM
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,216
Under My Car
Mopar_Country
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,216
Under My Car
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Quote:
You can also unplug your dstributor, and then remove the cap, noting where the rotor is pointing. Crank the car over for a second, and walk back over and see if distributor has rotated etc.
I actually have the exact same issue that you do currently, and have tested and double-checked everything to arrive at the same point you are today! I am planning on getting a new reluctor in my dist this afternoon, but since I'm on the west coast, I hope you're up and running before I get home from work! At least that would give me some light at the end of the tunnel! 
Are you sure its your reluctor, or is it the pickup coil?
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Re: Car Quit In The Parking Lot: HELP
[Re: Mopar_Country]
#729488
06/22/10 11:32 AM
06/22/10 11:32 AM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 12,675
Columbia, CT
moper
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Feb 2003
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Columbia, CT
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Dave,
The pickup as sold is just the pickup... Not the plate it clips in to witht he 90° tabs for the screws. The picture is correct. You push the pickup's plate down, remove the flat spring clip underneath the main plate, then replace the pickup.
Well, art is art, isn't it? Still, on the other hand, water is water! And east is east and west is west and if you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce they taste much more like prunes than rhubarb does. Now, uh... Now you tell me what you know.
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Re: Car Quit In The Parking Lot: HELP
[Re: moper]
#729489
06/22/10 11:39 AM
06/22/10 11:39 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,443
Indiana
YO7_A66
OP
master
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OP
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David, Thanks for the heads up.
1970 YO7 A66 [Canadian Export] F8 Challenger
340 (Currently in shop for stroker assy.)
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Re: Car Quit In The Parking Lot: HELP
[Re: CANDK]
#729491
06/22/10 02:23 PM
06/22/10 02:23 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,443
Indiana
YO7_A66
OP
master
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OP
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Cand: Please let us know how yours turns out. I hope to get to mine tonight but the wife keeps adding to my too-do list.
1970 YO7 A66 [Canadian Export] F8 Challenger
340 (Currently in shop for stroker assy.)
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Re: Car Quit In The Parking Lot: HELP
[Re: Mopar_Country]
#729493
06/22/10 09:06 PM
06/22/10 09:06 PM
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Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 344
Idaho
CANDK
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 344
Idaho
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Ok... I replaced my pickup coil, correctly gapped etc. I put the rotor back on, cap back on, and gave it a crank. Nada, not even a sputter of nothin. So, just on the off chance that I'm crazy, I grabbed my $2.99 Chinese spark tester and pulled #1 plug wire and stuck that in between the plug and the wire. Cranked again, no spark just as I figured. I went ahead and left the key in run position, and pulled the harness to the orange box, checked voltage and got 11.5ish at the two pins that are supposed to have juice. I decided to take a gamble and grabbed a 2nd orange box out of a crate. I pulled the harness (mine is mounted under the battery tray) out enough to get it plugged in. I hung it on the j-bolt for my battery hold down for a ground. Car fired right up before I could let go of the key at about second 1.3 of cranking... with the spark tester still on #1 and all.  I have proper voltage on the ECU, at the coil, and at the pickup with the old orange box, yet no spark. I think I am going to just buy ECUs at frickin shucks from now on! This box is about 18 months old, but has less than 200 miles on it.
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Re: Car Quit In The Parking Lot: HELP
[Re: Mopar_Country]
#729494
06/22/10 09:16 PM
06/22/10 09:16 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,443
Indiana
YO7_A66
OP
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OP
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UPDATE:
I tested the coil pickup voltage and it was .5/.6v with engine turning over with the key.
I pulled the dist and as I was trying to install the new pickup I forgot that the FBO dist has a welded advance plate. So I scribed around the existing plate and cut the weld and got the new pickup in place and tapped a new hole and added a screw to tie it back down. The new pickup showed 323/325ohms and while hand spinning the shaft I got 1.5-1.7 volts. I set my .008" gap and got it installed again. I then rechecked the ohms and got the same reading but then I checked the voltage with the starter and I only got the .5/.6v again.
The engine started right up but I could not keep it going. I restarted it again and it fired right back up but I could not keep it running. It had a horrible miss. It kept dying and I kept starting it back up and as I tried to keep it running, the exhaust was making a popping or cracking noise. This was the last noise that I heard from the car before it died for the last time in the parking lot. I know that the timing is probably off a little but not enough to make the exhaust sound like it did. Once I can get it to run better I will recheck the initial timing and get it reset.
I am getting closer but there is still something wrong. What do you think now?
Thanks
1970 YO7 A66 [Canadian Export] F8 Challenger
340 (Currently in shop for stroker assy.)
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Re: Car Quit In The Parking Lot: HELP
[Re: CANDK]
#729495
06/22/10 09:20 PM
06/22/10 09:20 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,443
Indiana
YO7_A66
OP
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OP
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"checked voltage and got 11.5ish at the two pins that are supposed to have juice.""
Two pins showed 12ish volts? I only had the #1 showing 12 volts. Which two of the 5 should have voltage? This might help me with my existing issue.
Thanks
1970 YO7 A66 [Canadian Export] F8 Challenger
340 (Currently in shop for stroker assy.)
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Re: Car Quit In The Parking Lot: HELP
[Re: YO7_A66]
#729496
06/22/10 09:38 PM
06/22/10 09:38 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 12,675
Columbia, CT
moper
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 12,675
Columbia, CT
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I'd at least pull the plugs and look them over. Might tell you something. Also do a compression test to rule out anything mechanical.
Well, art is art, isn't it? Still, on the other hand, water is water! And east is east and west is west and if you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce they taste much more like prunes than rhubarb does. Now, uh... Now you tell me what you know.
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Re: Car Quit In The Parking Lot: HELP
[Re: Mopar_Country]
#729498
06/22/10 10:07 PM
06/22/10 10:07 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,443
Indiana
YO7_A66
OP
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OP
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Joined: Jan 2003
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Indiana
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David,
I will pull a couple of plugs but as good as it was running, I hope that it is not a mechanical issue. This thing shut off like a switch with no warning.
MC:
I bought a new reluctor and I placed it exactly like the old one with the pin at the double arrow. I used a .008" brass feeler.
Thank you,
Can someone confirm which of the 5 pins at the ECU should have 12v at the RUN position? I know that I had 12v at the #1 position (please refer to the previous schematic for numbering).
Thanks to all
1970 YO7 A66 [Canadian Export] F8 Challenger
340 (Currently in shop for stroker assy.)
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Re: Car Quit In The Parking Lot: HELP
[Re: Mopar_Country]
#729501
06/23/10 06:33 AM
06/23/10 06:33 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,443
Indiana
YO7_A66
OP
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OP
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Joined: Jan 2003
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I pulled a plug this morning before heading out to work and it smelled of GAS!! I must have had two problems, maybe one causing the second. I have enough juice to start it up but not enough to burn the fuel in the cylinders.
I am going to contact Mallory today and find out why my 1.4ohm primary coil only has .4ohms. I wonder if the resistor went out in the coil (this being a resistor coil so that I do not have to run a ballast) which fried the coil pickup. Because .4ohms is the resistance of their non-resistored coil.
MC:
I marked the housing of my distributor and noted where the rotor was facing before I removed the dist. It started up great but I could not keep it running due to the missing problem. I think either the coil is causing it or the gas soaked plugs are the problem. I almost think that the plugs are a result and not the problem.
CAND:
I swear that I also had 12v to the #1 and #4 (just like you pointed out) pins but when I checked them the other night, I only had voltage to #1. I will recheck again tonight.
I attached a pdf showing a closeup view of the ECU pins (looking at the ECU not at the harness) that was posted earlier.
After I recheck the pin voltage from the ECU harness, I am going to wire in my old FBO coil/ballast to see if my Mallory coil is the problem or not and also pull a couple more spark plugs just to make sure. The one I pulled this morning was a little dark but mainly gas soaked.
Thanks
1970 YO7 A66 [Canadian Export] F8 Challenger
340 (Currently in shop for stroker assy.)
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Re: Car Quit In The Parking Lot: HELP
[Re: YO7_A66]
#729502
06/23/10 09:40 AM
06/23/10 09:40 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,443
Indiana
YO7_A66
OP
master
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OP
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Joined: Jan 2003
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Indiana
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I spoke with Mallory this morning and after giving him my primary and secondary resistance readings he said that the coil has gone bad already after just three months. Then I told him that the coil had a buzzing noise and he said that is definately wrong.
He suggested that I contact Summit for a replacement and when I did, Summit did not have any in stock and could not get one until the end of July. So I opted for another Mallory coil that could be ran with my electronic ignition and with no ballast. It is a canister type coil and it has the same 1.4ohm primary (non ballast) but it has more secondary resistance and a higher max voltage output. I should have the coil tomorrow and I will get it rewired and tested ASAP.
Should I replace the spark plugs since they smelled like gas?
Thanks again,
1970 YO7 A66 [Canadian Export] F8 Challenger
340 (Currently in shop for stroker assy.)
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Re: Car Quit In The Parking Lot: HELP
[Re: CANDK]
#729506
06/23/10 09:07 PM
06/23/10 09:07 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,443
Indiana
YO7_A66
OP
master
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OP
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Joined: Jan 2003
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Indiana
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CAND:
I checked the voltage at my ECU again tonight and I have 12 volts at two of the pins at the RUN position. The two wires with 12v are the Light Blue/Yellow tracer and the Black/Yellow tracer. (I believe the pin numbers are #1 and #2 and looking at your picture the same as yours.)
MC:
I agree that it appears that the coil went bad and then damaged the pickup coil too. But I have to add that the condition of the reluctor and pickup were questionable. The reluctor had heavy surface rust and all of the veins were worn down around the pickup area. It appeared that the pickup was touching the reluctor even though the hold down screw was very tight. It had been awhile (a year or so) since I had that dist out but I was surprised to see them touching each other with the tight screw.
I will get the next style of coil tomorrow and hopefully have time to try and start it tomorrow night and then I will see if anything else went sour too.
I pulled a couple more plugs and they appear fine but just a tad dark from the above issues.
Thanks again,
1970 YO7 A66 [Canadian Export] F8 Challenger
340 (Currently in shop for stroker assy.)
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Re: Car Quit In The Parking Lot: HELP
[Re: YO7_A66]
#729507
06/24/10 08:34 PM
06/24/10 08:34 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,443
Indiana
YO7_A66
OP
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OP
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Joined: Jan 2003
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UPDATE: I put the new coil(Mallory but different style) in and first checked the spark from the coil wire. I put a screwdriver apx 1/4" away from the tip and when I cranked it over, a blue spark hit the screwdriver and then jumped about an inch away into the firewall. At that time I knew I had the voltage back! I hooked the coil wire up and turned the key and a split second later the engine was running with no effort at all. It idled better cold than it used to half way warmed up. I let it idle for a while and reset the timing then shut it off for about 15 minutes to let everything get hot. Then it cranked over and fired again in a split second. I did not get to drive it but I will again this weekend. I want to thank everyone for their help!!!!
1970 YO7 A66 [Canadian Export] F8 Challenger
340 (Currently in shop for stroker assy.)
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