Re: Chrysler,Dodge and Desoto early Hemi, what interchanges
[Re: DusterKrazy]
#713819
06/02/10 01:31 PM
06/02/10 01:31 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 21,065 Niles , Ohio
therocks
oh wait.but hey.lets see.oh yeah.
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oh wait.but hey.lets see.oh yeah.
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Very little interchanges.You can make a hemi from the old 354 Chrysler poly block.The 318 poly I believe you cant.Rocky
Last edited by therocks; 06/02/10 01:31 PM.
Chrysler Firepower
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Re: Chrysler,Dodge and Desoto early Hemi, what interchanges
[Re: therocks]
#713820
06/02/10 09:49 PM
06/02/10 09:49 PM
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DusterKrazy
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Quote:
Very little interchanges.You can make a hemi from the old 354 Chrysler poly block.The 318 poly I believe you cant.Rocky
I thought the 354 Chrysler was a Hemi??
What about the spark plug tubes??Any interchange?
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Re: Chrysler,Dodge and Desoto early Hemi, what interchanges
[Re: Joatha]
#713822
06/03/10 03:20 PM
06/03/10 03:20 PM
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DusterKrazy
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Quote:
Quote:
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Very little interchanges.You can make a hemi from the old 354 Chrysler poly block.The 318 poly I believe you cant.Rocky
I thought the 354 Chrysler was a Hemi??
What about the spark plug tubes??Any interchange?
What years for the 354 poly?
There was both a 354 Hemi and a 354 poly. You can make a hemi out of the poly.
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Re: Chrysler,Dodge and Desoto early Hemi, what interchanges
[Re: cuhemida]
#713824
06/04/10 12:32 AM
06/04/10 12:32 AM
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fstfish66
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the 318 is an A ENGINE poly,,not to be confused with the 318 LA motor,,but a few internals are the same,,as far as i know the 318 A poly does not fall under the catogory of the early poly motors,,the 318 A poly came in around 1959 till 1966, that block is more like a LA motor
the 1953 thru 1956 poly motors are differnt and are the base for the same year hemis,,,
dodge polys share the same block crank rods as the dodge poly of those years these can be converted to a HEMI by switching to hemi heads and pistons,every thing else is the same,.
same for the desoto poly/hemis
and the chrysler 1953 thru 1957 hemi/poly.,.
none of the parts interchange from dodge to desoto or to chrysler they are all seperate familys,,,thats why production of these great motors stopped,,nothing was the same and too costly at the time to keep producing 3 competely differnt engine lines,,, i dont know how many if any of the same vintage plymouth poly motors have any thing in common with the dodge polys,,i know some of the cubic inch are not the same as dodge,,,
some distributors and oil pumps can be made to intrerchange
1966 barracuda prostreeter super charged 340(SOLD) 1940 dodge coupe 241 hemi street rod 2014 ram express hemi 4x4 dailey driver 2015 cherokee 2013 R/T classic
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Re: Chrysler,Dodge and Desoto early Hemi, what interchanges
[Re: fstfish66]
#713825
06/04/10 02:11 AM
06/04/10 02:11 AM
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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All right, we've been through this before, but I guess I need to do it again. Key to understanding early hemi and poly engines it that Chrysler decided to copy what was the GM practice at the time, in which each division developed its own engine line. So four separate engine families were developed, in which virtually nothing interchanged from one family to the other. First Chrysler OHV V-8 came out in 1951. Then De Soto in 1952. Then Dodge in 1953. And finally Plymouth in 1956. They each have their own bore center-to-center distances and so cranks, cams, heads and blocks do not and cannot interchange one from the other, as they are not and cannot be the same length. Chrysler, De Soto and Dodge engines were developed as Hemis. Later, poly versions of the Dodge and Chrysler engines were developed. There was never a De Soto poly. Chrysler and Dodge poly engines can be converted to hemis by swapping heads and related items, but only Dodge to Dodge or Chrysler to Chrysler. The Plymouth V-8 was developed as a poly engine. There was never a Plymouth-specific hemi engine (the later 426 hemi was used by both Plymouth and Dodge). Plymouth poly engines cannot be converted to hemis. However: Because its own V-8 wasn't quite ready for the 1955 model year, all 1955 and some 1956 Plymouth V-8's were actually Dodge poly engines, and these can be converted to hemis by using Dodge hemi heads. Also: The lowest-priced 1957 De Soto models used Dodge poly engines, and these too can be converted to hemis, using Dodge hemi heads. And finally: There was a very limited run of HP 57 Dodge D-501's that had 56 Chrysler 300 engines; i.e., dual-quad 354 hemis. (Clearly, by the mid-50's, Chrysler Corp. was already moving away from a strict each-division-gets-its-own-engine mentality.) The original Plymouth poly of 1956 had 277 cubic inches. Fury models introduced late in the model year used Canadian 303-inch Plymouth poly engines, which were essentially a 277 Plymouth poly with a .060 larger bore and a longer 3.31 stroke. For 1957, Plymouth poly engine choices were 277, 301 and 318. The 318 was a larger-bore version of the previous year's 303 and used the same crank. The 1957 301 used a 318 bore size with a 277 crank. Externally, 277's, 301's, 303's and 318's look identical. (BTW, there was a 301 Chrysler poly in 1955, but it is a completely different engine than the 301 Plymouth poly.) In 1959, Dodge phased out its old hemi/poly and began using Plymouth poly engines with a .040 larger bore to make it a 326 incher (the Dodge was a mid-priced car and needed a bigger engine than the low-priced Plymouth). The 326 was a one-year-only version of the Plymouth-designed poly motor. Next year the base V-8 for both Dodges and Plymouths was the 318 poly, with 361 and 383 big blocks optional. So the Plymouth poly evolved into the corporate standard V-8, and was also the basis for the later small-block 273, 318, 340 and 360 wedge V-8's, all of which share the same bore center-to-center distance and other critical dimensions with the old Plymouth poly. Here's a picture of the 277 poly in my 56 Plymouth Belvedere: That clear things up??
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Re: Chrysler,Dodge and Desoto early Hemi, what interchanges
#713826
06/04/10 11:21 AM
06/04/10 11:21 AM
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Anonymous
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Bore center-to-center distances for Mopar V-8's are:
Dodge hemi and poly - 4.1875
DeSoto hemi - 4.3125
Plymouth poly - 4.46 (same as the LA small block)
Chrysler hemi and poly - 4.5625
Mopar big block wedge and 426 hemi - 4.80
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Re: Chrysler,Dodge and Desoto early Hemi, what interchanges
#713827
06/04/10 05:34 PM
06/04/10 05:34 PM
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Joined: May 2004
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Robbins
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Well said, I couldn't of even gave that specific info. As a matter of fact I just saved that in a file. I basically had researched most of that out about the interchangeability of them about 8 or so years ago.
I do know that a LA distributer will fit a low deck Dodge Hemi. I've got a 273 points dizzy in my 241 Hemi.
Moparlee
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Re: Chrysler,Dodge and Desoto early Hemi, what interchanges
[Re: DusterKrazy]
#713831
06/05/10 09:22 AM
06/05/10 09:22 AM
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Anonymous
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Quote:
Does a small block timing chain fit the Chrysler hemi's??
What oil pan would I need to swap a 331 into a b body??
http://www.hothemiheads.com/
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Re: Chrysler,Dodge and Desoto early Hemi, what interchanges
[Re: DusterKrazy]
#713833
06/12/10 05:56 PM
06/12/10 05:56 PM
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,295 Hawley, Texas
shinnery
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Windsor, Saratoga, and poss Newport. Will more than likely be a poly engine. 55s will be the 301, 56s will be a 331 and 57-58s will be a 354 if original. I had a 331 poly years ago, had it in a 56 DeSoto and it was last seen in a 59 Dodge Panel Town Wagon. I may still have the 2 bbl intake as I got a factory 4bbl intake w/WCFB (a fun rebuild) and put it on. It has been gone 30 years or more. Bryce
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Re: Chrysler,Dodge and Desoto early Hemi, what interchanges
#713834
08/04/10 02:26 AM
08/04/10 02:26 AM
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RTSrunner
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Good info 413!An easy way to spot a poly with hemi potential is the existence of a bolt on lifter valley tray under the intake.The 318 poly and it's earlier variants use the intake manifold as a lifter valley cover(similar to later LA small blocks).When you find a poly with a valley tray,you can further ID it by either the stamped pad in front of the intake and by casting numbers.Most if not all block casting numbers are on the back of the block in the bellhousing area.This can be difficult to see if the trans is attached!You can find casting numbers at Thehmi.com or hot head website,some poly and hemi blocks carry the same casting number.The actual use of the engine is on the stamped pad. http://www.thehemi.com/castings.phpRT
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Re: Chrysler,Dodge and Desoto early Hemi, what interchanges
[Re: B1Fish540]
#713836
08/24/10 01:18 AM
08/24/10 01:18 AM
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Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,757 levittown pa
fstfish66
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the poly 318 was from 1959 i believe till 1966.after 1967 it is what we know as the LA motor,,
the poly head uses a staggered valve set up, some parts are interchangable to the LA,, oil pan i believe and dizzy,,same timing cover i belive.
go to allpar.com you can read about it there,,,
i have always thought these motors put out more power then a LA type 318,and there seems to be a ton of intrest down under,,also i believe you would find some poly 318 guys on the H.A.M.B.
not to be confused with the early poly motors of the mid 1950s, totally different blocks,,
Last edited by fstfish66; 08/24/10 01:30 AM.
1966 barracuda prostreeter super charged 340(SOLD) 1940 dodge coupe 241 hemi street rod 2014 ram express hemi 4x4 dailey driver 2015 cherokee 2013 R/T classic
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Re: Chrysler,Dodge and Desoto early Hemi, what interchanges
[Re: fstfish66]
#713837
08/25/10 12:59 AM
08/25/10 12:59 AM
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Joined: Nov 2003
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RTSrunner
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At the scrapyard yesterday,getting rid of real scrap,I spot a 318 poly in the truck next to me.I said to the guys wife that is worth more than what they'll give you for it here(maybe),she says yeah.As they weigh it,I say to the dude,that's a 318 poly Chrysler.Dude says it's a 383, dist hole in rear,wavy 2-bolt valve covers,manifold sealing the valley,it's a poly 'teen.I tell him I have been moving Mopar engines all week as I move garages,he asks if I have some motors for him!Sorry scrapper,mine are not junk!Get back in your GMC and be on your way!Some things are worth more than what they weigh in my opinion.Wonder who told him it was a 383,30 years of Mopars I can tell the difference!Makes me wonder how many have scrapped some rare motors. RT
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Re: Chrysler,Dodge and Desoto early Hemi, what interchanges
[Re: RTSrunner]
#713838
08/26/10 09:36 AM
08/26/10 09:36 AM
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Joined: Dec 2004
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fstfish66
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there was never any intrest in a 318 poly,, i knew as a kid some thing was different,,now they are the IN,, thing,,weird different motors are the IN thing,, tons of poly motors have been scraped over the years,,aLL
1966 barracuda prostreeter super charged 340(SOLD) 1940 dodge coupe 241 hemi street rod 2014 ram express hemi 4x4 dailey driver 2015 cherokee 2013 R/T classic
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Re: Chrysler,Dodge and Desoto early Hemi, what interchanges
[Re: B1Fish540]
#713840
08/27/10 03:12 PM
08/27/10 03:12 PM
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Anonymous
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Quote:
Maybe this is a dumb question..but what of the so-called "wide block" 318 Poly? Is it the same block as the LA? Is it the heads that make the poly look so wide?
Yes, the poly 318 block isn't any wider than a wedge 318 block.
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Re: Chrysler,Dodge and Desoto early Hemi, what interchanges
#713841
08/29/10 05:07 PM
08/29/10 05:07 PM
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B1Fish540
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Quote:
Quote:
Maybe this is a dumb question..but what of the so-called "wide block" 318 Poly? Is it the same block as the LA? Is it the heads that make the poly look so wide?
Yes, the poly 318 block isn't any wider than a wedge 318 block.
Thanks, 413, once again you are a great source for classic Chrysler motor specifications!
As a side note, wouldn't it be great if you could get speed parts for the poly head..or better yet have an aluminum poly SR head produced that would bolt on to a later LA 4 bolt block.
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Re: Chrysler,Dodge and Desoto early Hemi, what interchanges
[Re: RTSrunner]
#713842
09/13/10 12:36 AM
09/13/10 12:36 AM
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Bull1tt
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Quote:
At the scrapyard yesterday,getting rid of real scrap,I spot a 318 poly in the truck next to me.I said to the guys wife that is worth more than what they'll give you for it here(maybe),she says yeah.As they weigh it,I say to the dude,that's a 318 poly Chrysler.Dude says it's a 383, dist hole in rear,wavy 2-bolt valve covers,manifold sealing the valley,it's a poly 'teen.I tell him I have been moving Mopar engines all week as I move garages,he asks if I have some motors for him!Sorry scrapper,mine are not junk!Get back in your GMC and be on your way!Some things are worth more than what they weigh in my opinion.Wonder who told him it was a 383,30 years of Mopars I can tell the difference!Makes me wonder how many have scrapped some rare motors. RT
That's funny, might have been mine. I had an old poly w/trans out of my 65 Dodge and gave it to a scrap guy recently. There's NOTHING rare about them, can barely give them away, let alone sell one! And I didn't say what it was, so that was his call.
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Re: Chrysler,Dodge and Desoto early Hemi, what interchanges
[Re: DusterKrazy]
#2425636
12/30/17 03:44 AM
12/30/17 03:44 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
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poorboy
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The word was that all the brands of Hemi stuff were different. Very few would swap between the different brands, they would go with one brand and pretty well stick with that one brand.
Were I making motor mounts, I would expect to be building different brackets at the motor, or the frame, or both, for each brand. If they happened to be close enough to interchange, I would celebrate for a few seconds then move to the next part of the project. I've worked with 50s Mopar stuff for years, I don't believe there is such a thing as a definitive answer, lots of stuff was changing at the various Mopar camps during the 50s. By the early 60s, there was more of a shared mindset at Mopar. Gene
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Re: Chrysler,Dodge and Desoto early Hemi, what interchanges
[Re: DusterKrazy]
#2425679
12/30/17 09:40 AM
12/30/17 09:40 AM
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Mike P
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I haven't played with DeSoto Hemis but I did install a 56 354 Chrysler Hemi in my 57 Plymouth.
As far as I know the location and style of the lugs cast into the block that the motor mount cans (the part that bolts to the engine that the motor mount slips into) bolt to are the same between all the Chrysler, DeSoto, Dodge and Plymouth Polys and Hemis. Meaning that the 341 should drop right into to Plymouth using the stock 301 motor mount cans and mounts (or stock 341 cans and mounts IF your engine is from a 57 DeSoto) . At least that's the way it worked putting the Chrysler Hemi in my Plymouth.
Also as I recall the cans that bolt to the engine are unique side to side and it does make a difference whether they are bolted to the front side of the lugs or rear side.....so make sure you mark them or take pictures before you remove them from the 301. If that turns out that the mounts don't line up with the frame mounts, rather than try and modify the cans, I think it would be simpler to simply bolt the cans and mounts to the engine, and relocate the stock frame mounts to where they need to be. Modifying the cans can be a much bigger PIA than relocating the frame mounts. Because to the steering linkage and cross member location you will need to use the 1957 DeSoto oil pan and pickup.
The other area that may cause issues is exhaust manifold to steering box interference, depending on the exhaust manifold you are using. Depending of ow much room you have you may need to use either custom headers or possibly 1957 345 drivers side manifold.
1957 Plymouth (Hemi, Dual Quads, A833 4 Speed 9 1/4 w 4.10) Sold 1937 Dodge Pickup (Hemi, 6X2 intake, 46RH, Dana 60 w 4.56) Sold 1968 Plymouth Valiant 2dr sedan (354 HEMI, 46RH w/4.30 gears)
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Re: Chrysler,Dodge and Desoto early Hemi, what interchanges
[Re: DusterKrazy]
#2426221
12/31/17 07:24 AM
12/31/17 07:24 AM
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Mike P
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That's nice to know info on the 6 cyl flywheels. In a pinch the 6 bolt Poly flywheels will also work on the early Hemis. They bolt right up.......they just have spaces where the additional 2 bolts would go. If your concerned about not having 8 bolts those spaces can always be drilled, but hey even the later 440s only used 6 bolts. I built a couple of 4 speed conversions for the early Hemi using the the Poly Flywheels. I had the flywheels turned down and fitted with a 340 ring gear to fit inside a later SB bellhousing. Even the stock pressure plate bolt holes for the Poly flywheel are correct for a stock 10 1/2 pressure plate. FW by M Patterson, on Flickr
Last edited by Mike P; 12/31/17 07:27 AM.
1957 Plymouth (Hemi, Dual Quads, A833 4 Speed 9 1/4 w 4.10) Sold 1937 Dodge Pickup (Hemi, 6X2 intake, 46RH, Dana 60 w 4.56) Sold 1968 Plymouth Valiant 2dr sedan (354 HEMI, 46RH w/4.30 gears)
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Re: Chrysler,Dodge and Desoto early Hemi, what interchanges
[Re: savoy64]
#2448023
02/07/18 02:58 PM
02/07/18 02:58 PM
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dogdays
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Bore spacing on the three Hemi families is different. AND, the 318 Poly is different from all three Hemi bore spacings. www.hothemiheads has many answers as does Wilcap and TR Waters. Chrysler Corp started making Poly motors to give themselves a less expensive engine. The Poly heads from a 318 Poly won't work on any of them. The Chrysler Poly heads bolt right up to a Firepower Hemi block. I believe they used the same intake manifold as well, Hemi to Poly. BUT there is a fly in the soup! The 392 deck is 1/2 inch taller and in order to keep intakes swappable Chrysler made the 392 heads wider so the intakes would bolt right up. There wasn't a Poly 392 and so all the heads were sized for the lower deck height. If the mythical racer used an intake from either 392 Hemi or other Chrysler Spitfire engine he'd have to use spacers for it to work. The aftermarket had no such animal as an intake for a 392 with Poly heads. SO, the story is a myth or the buy was really handy with tools and machinery to fabricate his own spacers. Firepower bore spacing - 4.5625" A engine (318 Poly) bore spacing - 4.46" They do not interchange either. I think the story is a myth generated by some alcohol-fueled bench racing. R.
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Re: Chrysler,Dodge and Desoto early Hemi, what interchanges
[Re: DusterKrazy]
#2448374
02/08/18 09:19 AM
02/08/18 09:19 AM
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Mike P
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Nice write up Dogdays.
I kicked around the Poly head to Hemi block idea years ago.........never got further than looking up part numbers. As I only got that far I don't have any hands on experience but it looked possible.
One of the things I came across was that the "triple 5" heads used on the 56 354 (and some 331?) Hemis flowed better than the stock 392 heads. Because the head swap was popular with the hardcore hemi racers, aftermarket spacers were available as far back as the early 60s. In fact those spacers are still available from Hot Hemi heads. When I checked intake gaskets they showed the same part number for both the Poly and Hemi, indicating the port size and shape were the same and at least on paper making the swap possible. The one thing I I didn't readily find that would be required were off the shelf pushrods which would have had to be custom made.
To me, the story of a Hemi to Poly head swap still seems feasible. Whether it was actually ever done.......who knows.
Last edited by Mike P; 02/08/18 09:23 AM.
1957 Plymouth (Hemi, Dual Quads, A833 4 Speed 9 1/4 w 4.10) Sold 1937 Dodge Pickup (Hemi, 6X2 intake, 46RH, Dana 60 w 4.56) Sold 1968 Plymouth Valiant 2dr sedan (354 HEMI, 46RH w/4.30 gears)
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Re: Chrysler,Dodge and Desoto early Hemi, what interchanges
[Re: fugoopawitz]
#2502056
05/30/18 12:57 AM
05/30/18 12:57 AM
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Cab_Burge
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I took a 392 motor and trans out of my wrecked 1957 New Yorker and it bolted right in my 1960 dodge Phoenix, I had my Father in law cut, fit and weld the Dodge 318 head pipes up so they would work on the 392 Hemi and let my wife drive it while I was overseas in the Army back in 1967 My message is that Desoto motor should interchange also, didn't the DeSoto use the Dodge frames and running gear
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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