Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump
[Re: Viol8r]
#685446
05/01/10 03:11 PM
05/01/10 03:11 PM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 288 Birmingham, England
Mick70RR
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 288
Birmingham, England
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I had the same problem so I fitted a stock pump to the 440 Source housing and it runs cool again.
1970 Road Runner
505 cid
MCH CNC ported Stealth heads
MP 528 camshaft
4 speed
GV overdrive
11.98 @ 117 on street treads
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Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump
[Re: beedees]
#685448
05/01/10 03:17 PM
05/01/10 03:17 PM
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 233 NH
Fastback67
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 233
NH
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Quote:
I had the same problem so I fitted a stock pump to the 440 Source housing and it runs cool again.
Yes, the problem was the 440 Source Pump itself, and not the housing. The Pump doesn't move a lot of water, especially at low RPM's where it's needed the most.
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Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump
[Re: RapidRobert]
#685450
05/01/10 03:21 PM
05/01/10 03:21 PM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 288 Birmingham, England
Mick70RR
enthusiast
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enthusiast
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Posts: 288
Birmingham, England
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The passages on the 440 Source housing are smaller than a stock housing but they are big enough. The problem is the pump, it flows well at high rpm but not enough at low rpm.
1970 Road Runner
505 cid
MCH CNC ported Stealth heads
MP 528 camshaft
4 speed
GV overdrive
11.98 @ 117 on street treads
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Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump
[Re: Mick70RR]
#685455
05/01/10 04:37 PM
05/01/10 04:37 PM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 21,808 Kirkland, Washington
Pacnorthcuda
Too Many Posts
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Quote:
The passages on the 440 Source housing are smaller than a stock housing but they are big enough. The problem is the pump, it flows well at high rpm but not enough at low rpm.
I am wondering if this is the case. The 440Source pump impeller is radically different from stock, the Milodon, and the Edelbrocks. I have the 440source housing with the Edelbrock pump and it works OK, maybe not as well as it might with the stock housing but its not too bad.... (???)
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Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump
[Re: Dougsmopars]
#685456
05/01/10 04:47 PM
05/01/10 04:47 PM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,698 NE Oklahoma
Von
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,698
NE Oklahoma
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Quote:
Guess the 440 source parts are junk.
72 RR, Pump gas 440, 452s, 3800 lbs, Corked, ET Radials,. 11.33@117.72.
Same car, bone stock 346s, 9.5 comp, baby solid. 12.24@110.
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Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump
[Re: Dougsmopars]
#685459
05/01/10 06:46 PM
05/01/10 06:46 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 28,312 Cincinnati, Ohio
Challenger 1
Too Many Posts
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Cincinnati, Ohio
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Quote:
I'm going to try the Milodon pump and see if that takes care of it. It's only 75 degree's out today and car is running hot. Definitly gonna over heat when it's 90 out.
I'm betting it's your fan clutch, try another one.
180 stat would be best.
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Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump
[Re: Dougsmopars]
#685461
05/01/10 07:38 PM
05/01/10 07:38 PM
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Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 10,550 Rittman Ohio
fourgearsavoy
I Live Here
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Rittman Ohio
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Doug when you say it runs "hot" how hot is hot? Over 200 degrees I use the same housing that is sold by Mancini with a CV electric pump,16" puller fan,and aluminum 2 row radiator from Mancini and my 11-1 comp.street/strip engine runs 180 down the highway and 190-200 stop and go traffic. There are so many guys afraid of 200 degrees and that is NOT overheating Gus
64 Plymouth Savoy 493 Indy EZ's by Nick at Compu-Flow 5-Speed Richmond faceplate Liberty box Dana 60
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Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump
[Re: Dougsmopars]
#685462
05/01/10 08:36 PM
05/01/10 08:36 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,497 N.E. Ohio
KillerBee
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,497
N.E. Ohio
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Many years ago I installed a new(rebuilt) waterpump from a reputable local parts place on my 440. The car ran way hottter than before. Changed thermostat with no improvment. Old time mechanic told me to check the impeller on the NEW waterpump. Sure enough the impeller was poorly pressed on and was loose and spinning on the shaft. You might want to check how tight the impeller is.
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Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump
[Re: Dougsmopars]
#685468
05/01/10 09:10 PM
05/01/10 09:10 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 28,312 Cincinnati, Ohio
Challenger 1
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Quote:
Same fan that was on it before swapping the houseing and pump. Works fine.
They do go bad, expecially if there stored flat and put back on the car.
It's what keeps the engine cool(fan clutch) during stop and go. You should be able to hear the fan when it's working during hi temps.
I've seen em go bad with more than one car over the years.
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Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump
[Re: RapidRobert]
#685471
05/01/10 09:25 PM
05/01/10 09:25 PM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 21,345 Marysville, O-H-I-O
70Cuda383
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Marysville, O-H-I-O
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Ok, so you changed the water pump, water pump housing, and the CAM...and you think the overheating is from the water pump?
I'd look at the cam swap before the water pump. with a cam change, your carb will need re-tuned, and your timing will need re-tuned. you could be lean, your timing could be way off...and that could be a HUGE reason for running hot.
I'd suspect that before the water pump.
**Photobucket sucks**
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Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump
[Re: Dougsmopars]
#685478
05/02/10 12:37 PM
05/02/10 12:37 PM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 21,808 Kirkland, Washington
Pacnorthcuda
Too Many Posts
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Posts: 21,808
Kirkland, Washington
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Quote:
Lunati 513/533 Initial is happest at 20 degree's yes new valley pan i never reuse a gasket. I think the problem is the pump. easy change to find out.
ALSO! Before bolting the new pump on, determine the impeller-to-housing clearance. There have been reports of interference and/or excessive clearance with some combinations. I would think the most effective is for the impeller to be as close as possible to the housing, w/o interference.
As stated by another poster, the design of the 440source impeller does not look like it would flow well. Report back with your results!
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Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump
[Re: Pacnorthcuda]
#685479
05/02/10 01:26 PM
05/02/10 01:26 PM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,698 NE Oklahoma
Von
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,698
NE Oklahoma
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IMO, get a Milodon HV pump and be done with it.
72 RR, Pump gas 440, 452s, 3800 lbs, Corked, ET Radials,. 11.33@117.72.
Same car, bone stock 346s, 9.5 comp, baby solid. 12.24@110.
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Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump
[Re: RapidRobert]
#685485
05/05/10 12:59 AM
05/05/10 12:59 AM
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,230 State of retirement
52savoy
master
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master
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,230
State of retirement
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Quote:
Quote:
The pump is made by Cat and is sold by many different people.
I have a NIB cat pump going onto a mild 451
I have a CAT housing and pump with a 160 t-stat and I can't even get it past 160 degrees with a stock 22" radiator w/clutch fan. My 440 has 12-1 compression and a .600 lift cam. I did drill out the head gasket's water holes that were slotted.. Not sure how much diff that made.
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Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump
[Re: 52savoy]
#685486
05/05/10 01:13 AM
05/05/10 01:13 AM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,759 So Cal
HealthServices
Why would you even post that?
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Why would you even post that?
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,759
So Cal
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Most of my overheating problems went away as soon as I got rid of the underdrive crank pulley.
Allen
Here's a novel idea, let's not throw a bunch of parts at the car hoping it will fix the problem and instead spend a little time diagnosing it first.
Life was a little easier when I was just a wrench.
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Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump
[Re: GTXKen]
#685494
05/05/10 03:26 PM
05/05/10 03:26 PM
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 130 Marcell, MN
68 Roadrunner
member
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member
Joined: Mar 2010
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Marcell, MN
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I'm curious to see what you guys find out. I just put on a 440 Source pump and housing on my new motor. I'm not quite done installing it. Hopefully I don't have this overheating problem!
1968 Roadrunner 383 auto
.060 KB 400 domed pistons, Stealth heads, Torker intake, Holley 830, Lunati Voodoo cam 276/284, .513/.533, TCI 3500, 3.91 gears, all ARP fasteners,
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Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump
[Re: Challenger 1]
#685495
05/05/10 05:13 PM
05/05/10 05:13 PM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 936 own private Idaho
ngpSatellite
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 936
own private Idaho
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
something interesting to read about
Read the thread...that link was already posted in this thread. Just because someone post it, doesn't make it fact.
.... take it easy man... ........I have a 440 source housing and top end heat issues.... it will cost about 30 bucks to get a stock housing and swap it out... relax... you act like you work for 440 source
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Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump
[Re: Challenger 1]
#685499
05/05/10 10:11 PM
05/05/10 10:11 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,646 Ontario,Canada
firefighter3931
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,646
Ontario,Canada
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Quote:
Just because someone post it, doesn't make it fact.
Well the one fact that is indisputable is that MY engine ran cooler with the stock housing and Milodon pump. There was also much better circulation across the top of the rad with this setup vs the 440 source housing & pump. That's a FACT !
INMO, the housing is a problem, anything that restricts waterflow in & out can't be good for cooling. Coolant that languishes inside the block & heads too long is going to boil.
Ron
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Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump
[Re: firefighter3931]
#685500
05/05/10 10:45 PM
05/05/10 10:45 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 28,312 Cincinnati, Ohio
Challenger 1
Too Many Posts
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 28,312
Cincinnati, Ohio
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Quote:
Quote:
Just because someone post it, doesn't make it fact.
Well the one fact that is indisputable is that MY engine ran cooler with the stock housing and Milodon pump. There was also much better circulation across the top of the rad with this setup vs the 440 source housing & pump. That's a FACT !
INMO, the housing is a problem, anything that restricts waterflow in & out can't be good for cooling. Coolant that languishes inside the block & heads too long is going to boil.
Ron
I hear you, and agree. Bummer 440challenger, can you or will you change out your Source housing to see if it cures your problem?
Isn't there guys here running the Source housing without overheating issues?
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Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump
[Re: Challenger 1]
#685501
05/06/10 12:56 AM
05/06/10 12:56 AM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,178 Someplace you aren't
SomeCarGuy
I Live Here
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I Live Here
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Posts: 10,178
Someplace you aren't
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What kind of stat are you running?
Some have the big slots, others have the more common small passage.
I want my fair share
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Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump
[Re: Challenger 1]
#685506
05/06/10 01:41 PM
05/06/10 01:41 PM
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,943 San Angelo, Texas, U.S.A.
1968RR
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,943
San Angelo, Texas, U.S.A.
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Quote:
Isn't there guys here running the Source housing without overheating issues?
I have a 440 Source pump that I use with a stock housing, and I haven't had any issues with my .055" over and 11.5:1 compression engine. Then again I don't take the car on any 500-mile road trips.
"When I'm in a slump, I comfort myself by saying if I believe in dinosaurs, then somewhere, they must be believing in me. And if they believe in me, then I can believe in me." - Mookie Wilson
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Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump
[Re: Dougsmopars]
#685508
05/06/10 06:36 PM
05/06/10 06:36 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 28,312 Cincinnati, Ohio
Challenger 1
Too Many Posts
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Cincinnati, Ohio
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Quote:
Installed the Milodon pump and temp droped 20 to 30 degree's. The 440 source pumps are junk. Even worse when used with there houseing. Cars runs at 185 steady now 190 in stop and go traffic. Now when you rev it up a bit you can see the water really moving in the rad.
Good to hear, I'm thinking most of the Source stuff is junk. I don't care for China, I wonder why?
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Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump
[Re: Dougsmopars]
#685510
05/06/10 06:43 PM
05/06/10 06:43 PM
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 233 NH
Fastback67
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 233
NH
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Quote:
Installed the Milodon pump and temp droped 20 to 30 degree's. The 440 source pumps are junk. Even worse when used with there houseing. Cars runs at 185 steady now 190 in stop and go traffic. Now when you rev it up a bit you can see the water really moving in the rad.
Told ya the pump was junk The 440 Source pump housing wouldn't be my first choice either. It does work OK, but there are better products available for a similar price
440 Source does put out a lot of good products for us, but this housing & pump assembly is deffinately not one of them.
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Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump
[Re: Dougsmopars]
#685513
05/06/10 07:41 PM
05/06/10 07:41 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 18,389 UPPER MICHIGAN, MARQUETTE COUN...
NITROUSN
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 18,389
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Quote:
Car had no over heat issues till i installed the 440 source parts. Trashed that junk pump car is back to normal. That was money down the drain. pump went into trash. I wouldn't sell it to anyone. Made in China = JUNK
Why not give it to someone else and see if they have the overheating problem? That would be a good test.
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Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump
[Re: 440challenger]
#685518
05/06/10 08:13 PM
05/06/10 08:13 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 28,312 Cincinnati, Ohio
Challenger 1
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 28,312
Cincinnati, Ohio
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Quote:
Its a brand new 26" champion radiator . No shroud, but i dont have one on any of my other RB cars and they run 180
It sounds like your learning how important shrouds are... It makes a big difference along with a funtioning fan clutch if your running one.
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Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump
[Re: 440challenger]
#685519
05/06/10 08:22 PM
05/06/10 08:22 PM
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 233 NH
Fastback67
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 233
NH
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Quote:
Well im in bad shape. i put a 160 stat in and the car is still running at 210-215 on a short cruize. Its almost getting worse not better.
Switching from a 180 to a 160 will only make it worse. If your cooling system can't maintain 180 it's sure as hell not going to maintain 160. The thermostats just going to stay open and the hot water is just going to keep cycling through your block, never stopping in the radiator long enough to be cooled off. Put the 180 back in and move forward from there...
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Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump
[Re: 440challenger]
#685521
05/06/10 08:38 PM
05/06/10 08:38 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 28,312 Cincinnati, Ohio
Challenger 1
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Too Many Posts
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Posts: 28,312
Cincinnati, Ohio
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Quote:
Im running a brand new fan clutch and they fan is about 3/4 inch away from rad. Like i said i dont run a shroud on my roadrunner or challenger and they run 180. I think it's way beyond a shroud ,because i had an HHR elec fan with shroud and it was doing the same thing.
How can i tell if my lower rad hose is collapsing while driving ? Theres a ton of pressure in it when engines off...
Could i have a blown head gasket/ cracked head causing this overheating issue without the signs of running poorly or smelling antifreeze?
Doubt head gasket or crack since it's running good.
Put a spring in the lower hose if it don't have one. When in stop and go traffic shrouds become more important, I'm telling you.
you sure there's no air in the system?
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Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump
[Re: JohnRR]
#685528
05/10/10 06:00 AM
05/10/10 06:00 AM
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 10,847 Oakdale CT
gdonovan
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 10,847
Oakdale CT
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Quote:
Also one thing some of you are forgetting is the new cars running higher collant temps also run HIGHER SYSTEM pressure , I had to buy an upgrade kit for my rad pressure tester , it tests up to 30 psi now .
Higher system pressure raises the boiling point of water and helps prevent steam pockects.
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Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump
[Re: GTXKen]
#685531
05/10/10 06:53 PM
05/10/10 06:53 PM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 936 own private Idaho
ngpSatellite
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 936
own private Idaho
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Quote:
I just pulled the source pump and housing in favor of a stock housing and milodon pump. Hasn't been hot enough to make a difference but I will report back.
... FINALLY!!! THE MYSTERY IS SOLVED!!! ....HATS off to Doug for the topic and NachoRT74 for that awesome link put a stock housing on and a milodon pump and it cruzed all day long in 90+ florida heat yesterday, stop and go, everywhere!!! The 440 housing I had, you could barly get your pinky into the 90 deg turn in the lower opening. I put that 440 housing and pump on my new motor 2 1/2 years ago and could'nt get the temp down but never suspected the housing because it was brand new..........
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Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump
[Re: Dougsmopars]
#685532
05/10/10 07:20 PM
05/10/10 07:20 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,309 Prospect, PA
BSB67
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,309
Prospect, PA
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Quote:
.....Yes new cars do run hotter but lets not forget the new motors are built to much better tolerences. New cars run 200,000 miles all the time. The 60's motors were worn out at 70 or 80 K on them.
Hmmmm. Bit of a simplification. Maybe the 4 or 5 speed overdrive lock up converters have a little something to do with it and their 2.0 final overall drive ratios.
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Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump
[Re: Dougsmopars]
#685535
05/11/10 12:45 AM
05/11/10 12:45 AM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,698 NE Oklahoma
Von
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,698
NE Oklahoma
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Quote:
there also computer controlled. Running a 60's motor runnung at todays engine temps would kill them in 30K miles.
Do tell............
72 RR, Pump gas 440, 452s, 3800 lbs, Corked, ET Radials,. 11.33@117.72.
Same car, bone stock 346s, 9.5 comp, baby solid. 12.24@110.
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Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump
[Re: Dougsmopars]
#685536
05/11/10 05:46 AM
05/11/10 05:46 AM
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 10,847 Oakdale CT
gdonovan
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 10,847
Oakdale CT
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Quote:
Higher presure cap does not raise water temp. It raises boiling point.
"Higher system pressure raises the boiling point of water"
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Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump
[Re: DusterKrazy]
#685539
05/11/10 08:48 PM
05/11/10 08:48 PM
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,445 N.Wilkesboro,NC
DusterKrazy
master
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master
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,445
N.Wilkesboro,NC
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Quote:
Quote:
Higher presure cap does not raise water temp. It raises boiling point. Yes new cars do run hotter but lets not forget the new motors are built to much better tolerences. New cars run 200,000 miles all the time. The 60's motors were worn out at 70 or 80 K on them.
I do not agree. I've never seen a 318 worn out at 70-80k miles, much less a /6. If they wore out it is simply because people did not take care of them
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Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump
[Re: Dougsmopars]
#685541
05/11/10 10:50 PM
05/11/10 10:50 PM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,698 NE Oklahoma
Von
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,698
NE Oklahoma
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Quote:
there also computer controlled. Running a 60's motor runnung at todays engine temps would kill them in 30K miles.
Still waiting for a detailed explanation of the above claim.
72 RR, Pump gas 440, 452s, 3800 lbs, Corked, ET Radials,. 11.33@117.72.
Same car, bone stock 346s, 9.5 comp, baby solid. 12.24@110.
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Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump
[Re: Von]
#685542
05/11/10 11:04 PM
05/11/10 11:04 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,178 Someplace you aren't
SomeCarGuy
I Live Here
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I Live Here
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Posts: 10,178
Someplace you aren't
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If you run a 440 at 220 degrees, it won't like it. New engines run even hotter than that at times IIRC.
I want my fair share
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Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump
[Re: Dougsmopars]
#685543
05/12/10 10:59 AM
05/12/10 10:59 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17,801 S.E. Michigan
ZIPPY
I Live Here
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I Live Here
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S.E. Michigan
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Good Grief. So many comments, so little information. It's really quite simple: Either coolant flow is adequate, or it isn't. "Running something at 2-- degrees" and the engine's relative happiness or unhappiess doesn't account for where the temp is measured. Does anyone believe that the location in the water pump where the sensor is located is the be all, end all? It's not that a 440 "doesn't like" the temp being at 200-something degrees---they will, in fact, run hundreds of thousands of miles if the true coolant temp at the hottest point in the engine is 210 to 220. The problem is that the coolant temp isn't being measured at it's hottest point, and we don't know what it is at the hottest point when driving down the road. What do all the gurus think the coolant temperature is in the middle of the cylinder head, where two exhaust valves are located right next to each other? How about inside the block, directly below that area? Here's a hint: It's a whole lot hotter than where the temp is measured at in the water pump! The water pump housings in question sound screwed up to me, I either use stock ones or MP Aluminum.... but beyond that most of this discussion seems kinda hopeless....I mean...Older cars worn out at 70k miles? WTH does that have to do with a coolant temp discussion? My 176,000 mile '78 B body and my 210,000 mile '83 M body kinda kill that statement anyway. If all your stuff is worn out at 70k miles, you're doing something wrong
Rich H.
Esse Quam Videri
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Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump
[Re: ZIPPY]
#685544
05/12/10 11:45 AM
05/12/10 11:45 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,907 U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,907
U.S.S.A.
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Quote:
Good Grief.
So many comments, so little information.
It's really quite simple: Either coolant flow is adequate, or it isn't.
"Running something at 2-- degrees" and the engine's relative happiness or unhappiess doesn't account for where the temp is measured.
Does anyone believe that the location in the water pump where the sensor is located is the be all, end all?
It's not that a 440 "doesn't like" the temp being at 200-something degrees---they will, in fact, run hundreds of thousands of miles if the true coolant temp at the hottest point in the engine is 210 to 220. The problem is that the coolant temp isn't being measured at it's hottest point, and we don't know what it is at the hottest point when driving down the road.
What do all the gurus think the coolant temperature is in the middle of the cylinder head, where two exhaust valves are located right next to each other? How about inside the block, directly below that area? Here's a hint: It's a whole lot hotter than where the temp is measured at in the water pump!
The water pump housings in question sound screwed up to me, I either use stock ones or MP Aluminum.... but beyond that most of this discussion seems kinda hopeless....I mean...Older cars worn out at 70k miles? WTH does that have to do with a coolant temp discussion? My 176,000 mile '78 B body and my 210,000 mile '83 M body kinda kill that statement anyway. If all your stuff is worn out at 70k miles, you're doing something wrong
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Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump
[Re: DusterKrazy]
#685546
05/12/10 04:07 PM
05/12/10 04:07 PM
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 10,847 Oakdale CT
gdonovan
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 10,847
Oakdale CT
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Quote:
I do not agree. I've never seen a 318 worn out at 70-80k miles, much less a /6. If they wore out it is simply because people did not take care of them
I found the claim rather amusing as well considering my Duster has a 318 with 119,000 miles on the clock and it runs great.
Under the work bench I have several 440 engines and most of them had over 100k on the clock too when they were pulled from cars several years ago.
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Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump
[Re: ZIPPY]
#685547
05/13/10 06:13 AM
05/13/10 06:13 AM
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Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,061 New Mexico
dmerc
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,061
New Mexico
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For what it's worth, I just got a CAT water pump for my 360 engine and it has an impeller designed for CCW rotation(looking at the pulley end.) If you spin an impeller backwards, it will pump fluid but at a reduced rate. I'll be sending this pump back. See the attachment. Maybe Doug is having the same problem?
Last edited by dmerc; 05/13/10 06:51 AM.
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Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump
[Re: dmerc]
#685548
06/24/10 09:47 PM
06/24/10 09:47 PM
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 130 Marcell, MN
68 Roadrunner
member
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member
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 130
Marcell, MN
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I finally have run my new motor enough to say that I am having NO problems with my 440 Source housing & pump. I put in a 160 T-stat and the hottest I have seen it is 170.
1968 Roadrunner 383 auto
.060 KB 400 domed pistons, Stealth heads, Torker intake, Holley 830, Lunati Voodoo cam 276/284, .513/.533, TCI 3500, 3.91 gears, all ARP fasteners,
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Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump
[Re: 68 Roadrunner]
#685549
06/25/10 01:49 PM
06/25/10 01:49 PM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 477 mr norms avenue
5571
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 477
mr norms avenue
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this was a great thread to read. My friends 440 daytona ran hot when he put a new pump on (think it was a 440source believe it or not), and when he went and talked to another daytona owner, who convinced him the stock pump is a better bet to get rebuilt (which he did), it ran cooler right away.
It always pays to check the fan clutch on high milege cars, I had a 395/425hp vette that is factory 11:1 compression. The new edlebrock water pump I put on that was not as good as the original one (rebuilt), it actually ran hotter. It did not move the water at idle like the factory pump, at all. Also, the fan clutch, was shot with the fluid that leaked out over time. I always vindicate looking at the fan clutch, like said on this thread.
Also, if your car is a high compression motor, I strongly recommend keeping the octane high. My vette runs great, if its largely on racing fuel. Nice and cool. If I ever put in 93 octane, if I have to cause it gets low, it wants to run hot, then overheats. With that car, the octane level makes all the difference. I also run it rich, to help keep it cool. A lean carb will come back and bite you with 10s of degrees on the temp guage. My friends daytona shed some temp when he added some octane booster.
my 2 cents. always rebuilt the factory pump first (do not assume new pumps are better than the factory pump), make sure the fan clutch locks up at temperature (and does not slip), and have the right fuel/octane and set the carb on the rich side.
67 hemi GTX silver 4spd, 70 cuda convert 340 4spd, 71 cuda 340 4spd (Curious Yellow, white billboards/interior), 70 Mr Norm's Challenger 440 4spd
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Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump
[Re: SomeCarGuy]
#685550
06/25/10 04:00 PM
06/25/10 04:00 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17,801 S.E. Michigan
ZIPPY
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17,801
S.E. Michigan
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"hogwash" to comments that were never made, Oooo kay... It's a free country, feel free to debate something that never existed People are always looking for the cheapest possible thing they can get, but at the same time they just have to have the trick of the week because it makes their 3900lb car 8lbs lighter. A stock 1969 iron housing from the junkyard will function properly, was made properly, and looks great after blasting and paint. If a person wants to cheap out, that's how to do it. Forget aluminum unless a little extra money is available for one well known to work properly.
Rich H.
Esse Quam Videri
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Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump
[Re: ZIPPY]
#685554
07/17/10 12:34 AM
07/17/10 12:34 AM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,178 Someplace you aren't
SomeCarGuy
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,178
Someplace you aren't
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Quote:
"hogwash" to comments that were never made, Oooo kay...
It's a free country, feel free to debate something that never existed
Sorry Zip, you said this, so yes, the comment was made. Therefore, my comment in reply that an engine running hotter than before when measured in the same location was valid. It is perfectly fine to debate things. Here are your comments-
"The problem is that the coolant temp isn't being measured at it's hottest point, and we don't know what it is at the hottest point when driving down the road."
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Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump
[Re: Ramrod39]
#685556
07/17/10 03:09 PM
07/17/10 03:09 PM
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 130 Marcell, MN
68 Roadrunner
member
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member
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 130
Marcell, MN
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Just thought I would give a quick update. Still no problems with my 440 source pump and housing. I have never seen the temp gauge over 190.
1968 Roadrunner 383 auto
.060 KB 400 domed pistons, Stealth heads, Torker intake, Holley 830, Lunati Voodoo cam 276/284, .513/.533, TCI 3500, 3.91 gears, all ARP fasteners,
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Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump
[Re: Dougsmopars]
#685560
07/18/10 03:28 PM
07/18/10 03:28 PM
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,336 South-Central (Sebring), FL
Commando1
master
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master
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,336
South-Central (Sebring), FL
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Quote:
It's a very well known fact in the industry that the late model motors are designed and built better then ever and last longer then ever.
I grant you that fact. Hopefully, you'll you'll allow me to express something I believe in. It's a guess. No facts to back it up. I feel if you take a good 60's - 70's engine, and, rebuild it using the best of today's components, it will last longer than today's overstressed (in my opinion) engines.
Also, take away the 'puter from today's engines, I feel, actually puts them at a disadvantage.
But again, I WILL grant you theyare seriously more efficient at extracting the last hp out of engines designed today. I just don't think they are "better". I really don't want a 3.sumthing engine putting out 500+ hp in my DD. I hate things run at 150% day in and day out. I feel safer crossing a bridge with a safety factor of 2 rather than one that has it's capacity at it's 150% physical limits. Yes the new bridge will work quite nicely. When new.
One last question to ponder, and maybe slightly OT, but what do you think an engine designed TODAY would look like if gasoline was still at $0.25/gallon (comparitively), and, let the marketplace drive design rather than federal regulators?.
Last edited by Commando1; 07/18/10 03:39 PM.
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Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump
[Re: Dougsmopars]
#685561
07/18/10 04:10 PM
07/18/10 04:10 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,907 U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,907
U.S.S.A.
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Quote:
I suspose i could have left the car tied up for weeks waitting to find one on ebag and hope it wasn't damaged when it got here.
Did you post a want ad, I must have at least 5 68-69 housings in the basement.
I replaced mine to save the weight , 8 lbs off the nose is 8 lbs off the nose ...
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Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump
[Re: Dougsmopars]
#685562
07/18/10 09:21 PM
07/18/10 09:21 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,280
808CUDA
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,280
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Quote:
I put the high flow Milodon pump with there high flow stat temp droped 20 degree's.
Thanks for the update Doug, I ordered my Milodon HV pump and stat today. I'll post my findings when I get it done.
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Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump
[Re: 808CUDA]
#685563
07/18/10 09:34 PM
07/18/10 09:34 PM
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 16,453 Canada
CrAzYMoPaRGuY
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 16,453
Canada
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There are two different big block Milodon water pumps I think- any idea which part# is better for a street car? I have a 440source water pump, I would rather TRY a Milodon and make sure the pump I have isn't a factor- my Mr Gasket high flow stat sure was..... I want to compare water pumps next....
CrAzYMoPaRGuY
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Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump
[Re: 808CUDA]
#685564
07/18/10 09:40 PM
07/18/10 09:40 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,547 State College, PA
RyanJ
moparts member
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moparts member
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,547
State College, PA
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Interesting reading.... I put a new 440Source pump & Housing on my 600 HP 440 in my Daily Driver '68 RR last year because I am cheap LOL Never really spent too much time looking @ either piece... only issue I ran into is the pump impeller is VERY tight to the housing, so tight that with no gasket they touch... the thickness of the water pump gasket IS the clearance between the impeller & the housing... Have to say this motor probably runs cooler than any I've ever built. 160 T stat & it will sit on 160-165 on any "normal day" I just drive it 120+ miles to track & back couple weeks ago on a 94 degree Saturday... Climbing 7 mountains here in PA on 322 (very long very gruelling mountain climb) I never saw over 174 degrees. This is alum head (INDY EZ's) with killer big Alum rad & high flow mechanical fan... It will climb to about 180 if you sit @ stop light for 2-3 minutes in high heat day.. so the low speed flow is not worlds greatest, as some have mentioned. If I was really concerned about that I'd put an electric pump on it, which has constant flow rate... as soon as you start moving again & RPM's come up above 2000, temp comes right back down into the 160's. If you are really concerned about high temps sitting @ a light or in heavy traffic, pop it into neutral or push in clutch & rev motor a few times, helps circulate water, & will keep temps lower...
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Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump
[Re: CrAzYMoPaRGuY]
#685565
07/19/10 11:20 AM
07/19/10 11:20 AM
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,675 Mt. Eden Ky.
Hemi Allstate
master
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master
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,675
Mt. Eden Ky.
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Quote:
There are two different big block Milodon water pumps I think- any idea which part# is better for a street car? I have a 440source water pump, I would rather TRY a Milodon and make sure the pump I have isn't a factor- my Mr Gasket high flow stat sure was..... I want to compare water pumps next....
What were your issues with the MR Gasket stat? I am using the Source pump and housing on the 472 Hemi in the 69 RR I am working on. I will see if it is a problem on this one. It has a 26" Afco custom radiator. This was my engine, and is similar to yours, minus the ultra cool induction you have! Is this the Milodon pump to use?
http://www.summitracing.com/parts.aspx?sku=MIL-16260
Mark
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Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump
[Re: Hemi Allstate]
#685566
07/19/10 05:54 PM
07/19/10 05:54 PM
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 16,453 Canada
CrAzYMoPaRGuY
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 16,453
Canada
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Quote:
Quote:
There are two different big block Milodon water pumps I think- any idea which part# is better for a street car? I have a 440source water pump, I would rather TRY a Milodon and make sure the pump I have isn't a factor- my Mr Gasket high flow stat sure was..... I want to compare water pumps next....
What were your issues with the MR Gasket stat? I am using the Source pump and housing on the 472 Hemi in the 69 RR I am working on. I will see if it is a problem on this one. It has a 26" Afco custom radiator. This was my engine, and is similar to yours, minus the ultra cool induction you have! Is this the Milodon pump to use?
http://www.summitracing.com/parts.aspx?sku=MIL-16260
Mark
I put it in another thread Mark.... but I was thinking my Jensen was running warm. I eventually found a little coolant seepage coming from my thermostat gasket, so I bought a new gasket.... AND a Stant 160 degree thermostat. I tossed both the Mr Gasket 160 high flow stat and the Stant 160 stat into a pot filled with water, then added heat. The Stant stat started opening at 165 degrees, it was fully open by 170 degrees. The Mr Gasket 160 high flow stat started opening at.... well.... the water got to 210 degrees and the stat NEVER opened!!!!! I tried it a few times!
I heard a ton of bad things about them here and there on the internet but always thought it was probably some other problem, that kinda thing... Now I'm gonna stay away from the Mr Gasket high flow stats!!!!
I have a 440source pump on my Jensen, I just HAVE to try a Milodon to see if it makes a difference. I'm trying to get a 16260 as we speak!
CrAzYMoPaRGuY
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Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump
[Re: CrAzYMoPaRGuY]
#685569
07/19/10 09:21 PM
07/19/10 09:21 PM
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,675 Mt. Eden Ky.
Hemi Allstate
master
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master
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,675
Mt. Eden Ky.
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Quote:
Quote:
Aren't all the "high flow" thermostats (like Mr. Gasket) made by Robert Shaw?
I'm not sure. I still have my less than stellar one, I could take a photo?
I couldn't find a Milodon 16260 on short notice, I ended up grabbing an Edelbrock 8814 pump so I'll have to see if there is a difference over the 440source pump......
Do you know if the same problem holds true for the Milodon high flow t-stat? I have purchase two of them for projects. I also put one in a friends blown 360 Dart, that runs a bit too hot!
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Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump
[Re: CrAzYMoPaRGuY]
#685571
07/19/10 11:04 PM
07/19/10 11:04 PM
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 16,453 Canada
CrAzYMoPaRGuY
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 16,453
Canada
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SoooOoooooo........... Take a guess which one is the freshly removed 44source pump, and which is the Edelbrock 8814. It's now going in, no idea what to expect, but the differences are easy to see with a casual glance IMO......?
CrAzYMoPaRGuY
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Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump
[Re: CrAzYMoPaRGuY]
#685572
07/19/10 11:12 PM
07/19/10 11:12 PM
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,300 Northern Indiana
Dunnuck Racing
master
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master
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,300
Northern Indiana
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Sorry I did not catch this on here to warn you,butI took the Edelbrock pump off of my 440 in my dually.It was running hotter than I cared for.The previous owner had put this on it,and had a hi-dollar Griffin radiator,shroud,etc.I compared the Edelbrock pump to a 440 Source pump and they are as close of exact copies as you could get.I assume the Edelbrock design is what they were trying to copy. Anyway,I went with a flow cooler pump and dropped 20+ degrees from this thing compared to the Edelbrock pump. Save yourself the trouble,the expensive Edelbrock pump sucks too.
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Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump
[Re: Dunnuck Racing]
#685573
07/19/10 11:55 PM
07/19/10 11:55 PM
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 16,453 Canada
CrAzYMoPaRGuY
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 16,453
Canada
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Quote:
Sorry I did not catch this on here to warn you,butI took the Edelbrock pump off of my 440 in my dually.It was running hotter than I cared for.The previous owner had put this on it,and had a hi-dollar Griffin radiator,shroud,etc.I compared the Edelbrock pump to a 440 Source pump and they are as close of exact copies as you could get.I assume the Edelbrock design is what they were trying to copy. Anyway,I went with a flow cooler pump and dropped 20+ degrees from this thing compared to the Edelbrock pump. Save yourself the trouble,the expensive Edelbrock pump sucks too.
That's an Edelbrock beside a 440source pump right above in the pic. They are different just from a glance IMO. The Edelbrock impeller wheel is a much larger diameter..
And I've heard a few complaints about the FlowKoolers falling apart, maybe somebody else could chime in, but I was going to run a FlowKooler on my Coupe and got several bad feedbacks on them!
Are ANY of them good? Makes me think a stock factory waterpump is worth looking at....?
CrAzYMoPaRGuY
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Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump
[Re: A12]
#685575
07/20/10 12:52 AM
07/20/10 12:52 AM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 2,537 PORT ALBERNI , BC., CANADA
superwrench
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 2,537
PORT ALBERNI , BC., CANADA
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Well....you guys got me to thinking about my overheating problem now!!! I changed over from a MP viscous drive fan to the HHR electric fan about 4 months ago. I then noticed that the car was not cooling down as it normally would,and the lower rad hose was always quite cool where as the top hose was singin' hot. The fan wanted to run almost continuously. So....this thread got the best of me so I took out the Source pump tonite and put in a MP aluminum one. Result......the car will sit and idle now with the fan cutting in and out at about 185*....just over the stat temp of 180. It hasn't done that for months!!! I'm sort of thinking that the curved vane design is not as good as the old "paddle wheel" set up on the Mopar pump and it wasn't pumping as hard. What d'ya think??? I'll find out this Friday at our Outlaw Shootout because it's been pretty hot lately and once I get down to the last few cars, the hotlapping usually takes it toll. Lets hope.....
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Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump
[Re: superwrench]
#685576
07/20/10 03:27 PM
07/20/10 03:27 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,888 Athens, Greece
Pyper70
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,888
Athens, Greece
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On the recommendation of a few here...I sold my 440 Source housing and pump on Ebay....I just didnt wanna be a statistic. I will be ordering a brand new one from Mazzolini. Even Mazz said that the 440 stuff is hit or miss...usually a miss....I just hope those Rods and crank hold together. I still have the stock Cast Iron on my block, runs 210 on a summer day when it is 85*F outside...I am doing house renovations this summer so working on the cooling system will be a Winter job and probably won't have any news til then
Family owned 1969 Charger R/T DualQuad 440/727/GVO/3.55s
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Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump
[Re: 808CUDA]
#685579
07/20/10 08:07 PM
07/20/10 08:07 PM
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 733 Long Island NY
yellow sixpack
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 733
Long Island NY
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Anything they sell is And there shipping charges are threw the roof. I would never buy anything from them again.
If you can't be smart.....don't be stupid!
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