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Running hot with 440 source housing and pump #685443
05/01/10 02:36 PM
05/01/10 02:36 PM
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Dougsmopars Offline OP
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My 440 ran 190 on hottest days. Installed new cam and went to 440 source water pump housing and pump. Car runs hot now and summer hasn't started. Will adding electric fan help or do i have to dump the 440 source parts?

Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: Dougsmopars] #685444
05/01/10 02:40 PM
05/01/10 02:40 PM
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Brookeville, Md
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you might want to check a few things. 1st check your timing, 2nd make sure your fan is close enough to the radiator. Some pumps have shorter snouts, 3rd check you air/fule mixture. If you add a cam and didn't make adjustments to your carb you could be lean.


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Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: Dougsmopars] #685445
05/01/10 02:40 PM
05/01/10 02:40 PM
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Woodinville, WA
Viol8r Offline
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I have the same combo and its been great. Whats your t-stat?

Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: Viol8r] #685446
05/01/10 03:11 PM
05/01/10 03:11 PM
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Birmingham, England
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I had the same problem so I fitted a stock pump to the 440 Source housing and it runs cool again.


1970 Road Runner 505 cid MCH CNC ported Stealth heads MP 528 camshaft 4 speed GV overdrive 11.98 @ 117 on street treads
Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: Dougsmopars] #685447
05/01/10 03:13 PM
05/01/10 03:13 PM
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beedees Offline
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I remember reading here (or somewhere) that the passages on the w.p. housing were not the right size.

Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: beedees] #685448
05/01/10 03:17 PM
05/01/10 03:17 PM
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Fastback67 Offline
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Quote:


I had the same problem so I fitted a stock pump to the 440 Source housing and it runs cool again.





Yes, the problem was the 440 Source Pump itself, and not the housing. The Pump doesn't move a lot of water, especially at low RPM's where it's needed the most.

Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: beedees] #685449
05/01/10 03:17 PM
05/01/10 03:17 PM
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Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert Offline
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Quote:

I remember reading here (or somewhere) that the passages on the w.p. housing were not the right size.


Yes it was on here & one side of the 440source housing was restricted. I'd pull the housing and iirc it's easy to spot. You made no other changes other than pump/housing? did you change the stat at the same time?


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Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: RapidRobert] #685450
05/01/10 03:21 PM
05/01/10 03:21 PM
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Birmingham, England
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The passages on the 440 Source housing are smaller than a stock housing but they are big enough. The problem is the pump, it flows well at high rpm but not enough at low rpm.


1970 Road Runner 505 cid MCH CNC ported Stealth heads MP 528 camshaft 4 speed GV overdrive 11.98 @ 117 on street treads
Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: RapidRobert] #685451
05/01/10 03:24 PM
05/01/10 03:24 PM
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New 160 stat. Brand new 3 row rad. 18 inch clutch fan with shroud. Fan properly spaced. Carb adjusted a tad rich. timing set. Car isn't puking anti freeze but gauge is reading higher then it did. The 440 sorce houseing has the temp sensor on drivers side near head. My stock houseing had the temp sensor behind the nipple on passenger side. Am i getting a higher reading from that spot?

Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: Dougsmopars] #685452
05/01/10 03:56 PM
05/01/10 03:56 PM
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Valencia, España
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With a Charger born in Chrysler assembly plant in Valencia, Venezuela
Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: NachoRT74] #685453
05/01/10 04:08 PM
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I guess i'll try swapping the pump and hope that cures it. Hate to have to pull the houseing now. Guess the 440 source parts are junk.

Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: Dougsmopars] #685454
05/01/10 04:19 PM
05/01/10 04:19 PM
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Just ordered the Milodon pump and high flow stat.

Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: Mick70RR] #685455
05/01/10 04:37 PM
05/01/10 04:37 PM
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Kirkland, Washington
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Quote:

The passages on the 440 Source housing are smaller than a stock housing but they are big enough. The problem is the pump, it flows well at high rpm but not enough at low rpm.




I am wondering if this is the case. The 440Source pump impeller is radically different from stock, the Milodon, and the Edelbrocks. I have the 440source housing with the Edelbrock pump and it works OK, maybe not as well as it might with the stock housing but its not too bad.... (???)

Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: Dougsmopars] #685456
05/01/10 04:47 PM
05/01/10 04:47 PM
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NE Oklahoma
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Von Offline
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Quote:

Guess the 440 source parts are junk.







72 RR, Pump gas 440, 452s, 3800 lbs, Corked, ET Radials,. 11.33@117.72. Same car, bone stock 346s, 9.5 comp, baby solid. 12.24@110.
Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: Pacnorthcuda] #685457
05/01/10 05:21 PM
05/01/10 05:21 PM
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I'm going to try the Milodon pump and see if that takes care of it. It's only 75 degree's out today and car is running hot. Definitly gonna over heat when it's 90 out.

Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: Dougsmopars] #685458
05/01/10 06:39 PM
05/01/10 06:39 PM
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Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert Offline
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Quote:

New 160 stat. The 440 sorce houseing has the temp sensor on drivers side near head. My stock houseing had the temp sensor behind the nipple on passenger side. Am i getting a higher reading from that spot?


no, not a problem. I would suggest a 180 stat


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Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: Dougsmopars] #685459
05/01/10 06:46 PM
05/01/10 06:46 PM
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Cincinnati, Ohio
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Quote:

I'm going to try the Milodon pump and see if that takes care of it. It's only 75 degree's out today and car is running hot. Definitly gonna over heat when it's 90 out.




I'm betting it's your fan clutch, try another one.

180 stat would be best.

Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: Dougsmopars] #685460
05/01/10 07:15 PM
05/01/10 07:15 PM
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Norwich CT USA
moparts Offline
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Quote:

I guess i'll try swapping the pump and hope that cures it. Hate to have to pull the houseing now. Guess the 440 source parts are junk.




The housing passage is the same size as the hole in the block that it feeds, so it is not a problem.

The pump is made by Cat and is sold by many different people.
This is the first that I heard it has an idle flow problem, but might be


Tom ,

2011 Ram 3500 C&C Diesel
2009 Challenger R/T
1971 Challenger Conv. 511/4 speed
1970 Challenger R/T 503/727


Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: Dougsmopars] #685461
05/01/10 07:38 PM
05/01/10 07:38 PM
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Rittman Ohio
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Doug when you say it runs "hot" how hot is hot? Over 200 degrees I use the same housing that is sold by Mancini with a CV electric pump,16" puller fan,and aluminum 2 row radiator from Mancini and my 11-1 comp.street/strip engine runs 180 down the highway and 190-200 stop and go traffic. There are so many guys afraid of 200 degrees and that is NOT overheating
Gus


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Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: Dougsmopars] #685462
05/01/10 08:36 PM
05/01/10 08:36 PM
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N.E. Ohio
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Many years ago I installed a new(rebuilt) waterpump from a reputable local parts place on my 440.
The car ran way hottter than before.
Changed thermostat with no improvment.
Old time mechanic told me to check the impeller on the NEW waterpump.
Sure enough the impeller was poorly pressed on and was loose and spinning on the shaft.
You might want to check how tight the impeller is.

Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: moparts] #685463
05/01/10 08:45 PM
05/01/10 08:45 PM
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Lincoln Nebraska
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Quote:

The pump is made by Cat and is sold by many different people.


I have a NIB cat pump going onto a mild 451


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Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: fourgearsavoy] #685464
05/01/10 09:00 PM
05/01/10 09:00 PM
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in stop and go traffic it pegged the gauge. Starts to ping at light throttle, it's hot. As mentioned by others engine compartment heat is high. Heat radiating off motor is much higher then before. Plenty of complaints on those 440 source houseings and pumps. I'll try changing the pump. It's way cheaper then a motor.

Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: moparts] #685465
05/01/10 09:02 PM
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The houseing passage is much smaller then hole in block. I can't even get a finger in the port on houseing

Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: Challenger 1] #685466
05/01/10 09:03 PM
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Same fan that was on it before swapping the houseing and pump. Works fine.

Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: Dougsmopars] #685467
05/01/10 09:07 PM
05/01/10 09:07 PM
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Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert Offline
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Quote:

The houseing passage is much smaller then hole in block. I can't even get a finger in the port on houseing


That IS a prob


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Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: Dougsmopars] #685468
05/01/10 09:10 PM
05/01/10 09:10 PM
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Cincinnati, Ohio
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Quote:

Same fan that was on it before swapping the houseing and pump. Works fine.




They do go bad, expecially if there stored flat and put back on the car.

It's what keeps the engine cool(fan clutch) during stop and go. You should be able to hear the fan when it's working during hi temps.

I've seen em go bad with more than one car over the years.

Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: Challenger 1] #685469
05/01/10 09:14 PM
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Well it was only off the car for 3 days while i changed the cam and houseing. I doubt it went bad in those 3 days. Yes you can hear it working. Car ran rock steady at 180 to 190 all day in 90 degree heat. Now with that houseing it runs very hot and it's only 75 degrees out.

Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: Dougsmopars] #685470
05/01/10 09:18 PM
05/01/10 09:18 PM
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Suffolk,VA
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ireland383 Offline
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Sounds like an air pocket.

Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: RapidRobert] #685471
05/01/10 09:25 PM
05/01/10 09:25 PM
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Marysville, O-H-I-O
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Ok, so you changed the water pump, water pump housing, and the CAM...and you think the overheating is from the water pump?

I'd look at the cam swap before the water pump. with a cam change, your carb will need re-tuned, and your timing will need re-tuned. you could be lean, your timing could be way off...and that could be a HUGE reason for running hot.

I'd suspect that before the water pump.


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Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: Dougsmopars] #685472
05/01/10 09:30 PM
05/01/10 09:30 PM
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Marysville, O-H-I-O
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Quote:

The houseing passage is much smaller then hole in block. I can't even get a finger in the port on houseing




ok, that might be a problem...can you open it up at all to be at least as big as the holes in the block?

my housing from 440 source works fine...I had to replace the pump though, but only because my custom serp set-up has the pump spinning backards, so I needed a pump with straight vanes that would work when spun backwards.


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Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: ireland383] #685473
05/01/10 09:31 PM
05/01/10 09:31 PM
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Fredericktown, PA 15333
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Quote:

Sounds like an air pocket.






Maund Motorworks--supplier of high performance Mopar engines--specializing in B, RB, and Hemi. www.maundmotorworks.com
Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: 70Cuda383] #685474
05/01/10 09:32 PM
05/01/10 09:32 PM
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Dougsmopars Offline OP
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And you should read the whole post before speaking. Carb is set timing is set. Carb is actually a bit rich not lean.

Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: 70Cuda383] #685475
05/01/10 09:33 PM
05/01/10 09:33 PM
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The Dalles, OR.
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First off what cam are you running. Second what is your initial timing? Third and most importantly did you use a NEW valley pan? I did a cam change on a motor with less than 500 miles on it and reused the old the valley pan. after changing everything out 2-3 times I finally pulled the intake and sure enough it was sucking air and oil out of the valley area. Funny thing was it didn't run like it had a vacuum leak and the plugs never showed oil consumption but after I changed the pan it stopped overheating.

Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: ireland383] #685476
05/01/10 09:34 PM
05/01/10 09:34 PM
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Fastback67 Offline
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Change the pump and change the thermostat to a 180. The housing will be fine... Yes it has a smaller port on one side, but so do many of the other (flow balanced) aftermarket housings.... 440 Source just happens to be the smallest.
Bottom line... I ran a whole series of controlled bench tests a while back using various housings and pumps...and the 440 Source housing with a stock pump flowed just as well as the stock Mopar housing with the same pump. The 440 Source pump however, was the dog of the bunch, especially at low rpm's.

Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: Dusted_Ya] #685477
05/01/10 09:38 PM
05/01/10 09:38 PM
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Dougsmopars Offline OP
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Lunati 513/533 Initial is happest at 20 degree's yes new valley pan i never reuse a gasket. I think the problem is the pump. easy change to find out.

Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: Dougsmopars] #685478
05/02/10 12:37 PM
05/02/10 12:37 PM
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Kirkland, Washington
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Quote:

Lunati 513/533 Initial is happest at 20 degree's yes new valley pan i never reuse a gasket. I think the problem is the pump. easy change to find out.




ALSO! Before bolting the new pump on, determine the impeller-to-housing clearance. There have been reports of interference and/or excessive clearance with some combinations.
I would think the most effective is for the impeller to be as close as possible to the housing, w/o interference.

As stated by another poster, the design of the 440source impeller does not look like it would flow well.
Report back with your results!

Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: Pacnorthcuda] #685479
05/02/10 01:26 PM
05/02/10 01:26 PM
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NE Oklahoma
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Von Offline
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IMO, get a Milodon HV pump and be done with it.


72 RR, Pump gas 440, 452s, 3800 lbs, Corked, ET Radials,. 11.33@117.72. Same car, bone stock 346s, 9.5 comp, baby solid. 12.24@110.
Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: Von] #685480
05/02/10 03:17 PM
05/02/10 03:17 PM
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Suffolk,VA
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ireland383 Offline
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FWIW I just got back from a nice romp in 95 degree weather with my cat housing and a Napa replacement water pump and car never went above 175 degrees.

Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: Dougsmopars] #685481
05/02/10 04:46 PM
05/02/10 04:46 PM
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LEE, MASS
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I had the same problem with their stuff went with another pump and housing, 44O Housings are JUNK

Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: TOMRR] #685482
05/04/10 09:28 PM
05/04/10 09:28 PM
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NJ
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Did the pump fix it?

Im having a problem with my dads 440. We are using a 26" champion alum rad, new thermal clutch on 7 blade MP fan. Flushed the block. goes to 215 on the high way. Gets so hot that the fuel boils and car cuts in and out.

I have a 440 source pump and housing on it...
Doesnt puke coolant but just runs super hot!

We took the clutch fan off today and put an HHR elec fan and shroud on and its still 200 degrees on a cool 70 degree night

Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: 440challenger] #685483
05/04/10 09:58 PM
05/04/10 09:58 PM
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My Milodon pump will be here tomorrow. I'll put it in thureday night and let you know.

Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: 440challenger] #685484
05/04/10 10:01 PM
05/04/10 10:01 PM
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Cincinnati, Ohio
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Get rid of the Source pump and put the themal fan back on it. The housing is probally OK.

Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: RapidRobert] #685485
05/05/10 12:59 AM
05/05/10 12:59 AM
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Quote:

Quote:

The pump is made by Cat and is sold by many different people.


I have a NIB cat pump going onto a mild 451




I have a CAT housing and pump with a 160 t-stat and I can't even get it past 160 degrees with a stock 22" radiator w/clutch fan. My 440 has 12-1 compression and a .600 lift cam. I did drill out the head gasket's water holes that were slotted.. Not sure how much diff that made.

Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: 52savoy] #685486
05/05/10 01:13 AM
05/05/10 01:13 AM
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So Cal
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Most of my overheating problems went away as soon as I got rid of the underdrive crank pulley.


Allen Here's a novel idea, let's not throw a bunch of parts at the car hoping it will fix the problem and instead spend a little time diagnosing it first. Life was a little easier when I was just a wrench.
Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: NachoRT74] #685487
05/05/10 07:03 AM
05/05/10 07:03 AM
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own private Idaho
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ngpSatellite Offline
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own private Idaho

Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: ngpSatellite] #685488
05/05/10 07:38 AM
05/05/10 07:38 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 28,312
Cincinnati, Ohio
Challenger 1 Offline
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Quote:

Quote:

something interesting to read about







Read the thread...that link was already posted in this thread.
Just because someone post it, doesn't make it fact.

Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: Challenger 1] #685489
05/05/10 08:08 AM
05/05/10 08:08 AM
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440challenger Offline
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you know what. after i read that thread it reminded me. When my t stat opens up the fluid does just "coast" by very slowly. You guys think those source housings are ok?

Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: 440challenger] #685490
05/05/10 08:17 AM
05/05/10 08:17 AM
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Cincinnati, Ohio
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I think the housings are cheap and junky and wouldn't want one on my car, but I don't think there the reason for running hot. I do think the Source pump is junk and causing the overheating problem. If it still runs hot with a decent pump, then it's the clutch on the clutch fan. My

Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: Dougsmopars] #685491
05/05/10 08:53 AM
05/05/10 08:53 AM
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sixbbl69 Offline
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go to dodge charger .com and read what was said about this 6 months ago and is still at top of page.

Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: sixbbl69] #685492
05/05/10 09:12 AM
05/05/10 09:12 AM
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440challenger Offline
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I just swaped out the source pump for a reman stocker i had on the shelf . i will let you know tonight if there is a difference. I can tell you that the source pump and stock are 2 completely different animals as far as construction and design.

Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: 440challenger] #685493
05/05/10 02:31 PM
05/05/10 02:31 PM
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 3,968
North Riverside IL & Lowell IN
GTXKen Offline
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I just pulled the source pump and housing in favor of a stock housing and milodon pump. Hasn't been hot enough to make a difference but I will report back.

Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: GTXKen] #685494
05/05/10 03:26 PM
05/05/10 03:26 PM
Joined: Mar 2010
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Marcell, MN
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I'm curious to see what you guys find out. I just put on a 440 Source pump and housing on my new motor. I'm not quite done installing it. Hopefully I don't have this overheating problem!


1968 Roadrunner 383 auto .060 KB 400 domed pistons, Stealth heads, Torker intake, Holley 830, Lunati Voodoo cam 276/284, .513/.533, TCI 3500, 3.91 gears, all ARP fasteners,
Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: Challenger 1] #685495
05/05/10 05:13 PM
05/05/10 05:13 PM
Joined: Oct 2007
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own private Idaho
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ngpSatellite Offline
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Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

something interesting to read about







Read the thread...that link was already posted in this thread.
Just because someone post it, doesn't make it fact.


.... take it easy man... ........I have a 440 source housing and top end heat issues.... it will cost about 30 bucks to get a stock housing and swap it out... relax... you act like you work for 440 source

Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: ngpSatellite] #685496
05/05/10 07:00 PM
05/05/10 07:00 PM
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Posts: 2,295
dark side of the moon
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Dougsmopars Offline OP
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My Milodon pump came today. What a difference in impeller design and size. This will definitely move a lot more water then the junk 440 source pump. It's going in tomorrow.

Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: Dougsmopars] #685497
05/05/10 08:44 PM
05/05/10 08:44 PM
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440challenger Offline
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Well I just test drove the car with the reman stock pump. Went to a local cruise night. it was a nice and cool 65 degree night and its still running hot. The car was running great, 170-190..then after about 15 minutes into the drive it will get up to 210-215. Im not sure why its doing this... The temp is not dropping down while cruizing..

In my case, the source pump was NOT the problem. Now could the housing be a problem?
I flushed the block a bunch when i built the motor, and flushed it recently again. Im going to try a 160 stat and see what happens.....

Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: 440challenger] #685498
05/05/10 08:56 PM
05/05/10 08:56 PM
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CENTRAL MINN
1965_PLYMOUTH Offline
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how heavy of radiator caps are you guys running that have heating issues? excessive pressure builds excessive heat.

Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: Challenger 1] #685499
05/05/10 10:11 PM
05/05/10 10:11 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,646
Ontario,Canada
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firefighter3931 Offline
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Quote:


Just because someone post it, doesn't make it fact.




Well the one fact that is indisputable is that MY engine ran cooler with the stock housing and Milodon pump. There was also much better circulation across the top of the rad with this setup vs the 440 source housing & pump. That's a FACT !

INMO, the housing is a problem, anything that restricts waterflow in & out can't be good for cooling. Coolant that languishes inside the block & heads too long is going to boil.


Ron

Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: firefighter3931] #685500
05/05/10 10:45 PM
05/05/10 10:45 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 28,312
Cincinnati, Ohio
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Quote:

Quote:


Just because someone post it, doesn't make it fact.




Well the one fact that is indisputable is that MY engine ran cooler with the stock housing and Milodon pump. There was also much better circulation across the top of the rad with this setup vs the 440 source housing & pump. That's a FACT !

INMO, the housing is a problem, anything that restricts waterflow in & out can't be good for cooling. Coolant that languishes inside the block & heads too long is going to boil.


Ron





I hear you, and agree.

Bummer 440challenger, can you or will you change out your Source housing to see if it cures your problem?

Isn't there guys here running the Source housing without overheating issues?

Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: Challenger 1] #685501
05/06/10 12:56 AM
05/06/10 12:56 AM
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Posts: 10,178
Someplace you aren't
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SomeCarGuy Offline
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Someplace you aren't
What kind of stat are you running?

Some have the big slots, others have the more common small passage.


I want my fair share
Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: Challenger 1] #685502
05/06/10 07:09 AM
05/06/10 07:09 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 28,312
Cincinnati, Ohio
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Quote:



Isn't there guys here running the Source housing without overheating issues?





Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: Challenger 1] #685503
05/06/10 07:30 AM
05/06/10 07:30 AM
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Posts: 843
Suffolk,VA
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ireland383 Offline
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I posted earlier that I run the Cat housing which is identical to the Source one. Yes I noticed one passage was smaller next to my stock housing. I cant get my car above 175 degrees even in traffic on a 95 degree day. This is with a Napa replacement pump.

Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: ireland383] #685504
05/06/10 08:05 AM
05/06/10 08:05 AM
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Posts: 4,503
NJ
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440challenger Offline
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I run a cat housing on my challenger and have no problems. I am going to try swaping the 180 stat first to a 160. I really hate to change the housing.

Its deffiently something with the setup becuase i followed my dad with my roadrunner (383 iron heads,pump/housing,no shroud) and i ran 170 the whole way down at 3,100 rpm.


waiting on my new timing light to come so i can see where were at. also going to pull the plugs. I'll keep updating.

Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: maundmotorworks] #685505
05/06/10 12:41 PM
05/06/10 12:41 PM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 2,463
Answering the call of the wild
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ThermoQuad Offline
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Answering the call of the wild
A 160 or 180 degree thermostat is too cold for today's gasoline. 200 degree operating temp is not I repeat is not hot!! Below 190 degrees operating temp fuel collects inside the intake manifold and burns off as you go down the road in the cruise mode, eventually making the car lean...This is not seat of the pants science but results from analyzing the information from a wide band LM1 air-fuel meter on more than several cars. Low operating temps contaminate the oil quicker as well...As always the disclaimer: it's your car so do what you want and ignore good information.

As to the OP's problem, it's more than likely the
hardware from our good friends at the 440 source where money rules first and quality products for the customer second. Flow schmow, explain how a restriction in a place where that factory has none is not a problem. The restricted passage is not correct so stop trying to sell us idiots on it. Those of you who will accept mediocrity where excellence is required the offshore product will work "good enough"...

Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: Challenger 1] #685506
05/06/10 01:41 PM
05/06/10 01:41 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,943
San Angelo, Texas, U.S.A.
1968RR Offline
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Quote:

Isn't there guys here running the Source housing without overheating issues?



I have a 440 Source pump that I use with a stock housing, and I haven't had any issues with my .055" over and 11.5:1 compression engine. Then again I don't take the car on any 500-mile road trips.


"When I'm in a slump, I comfort myself by saying if I believe in dinosaurs, then somewhere, they must be believing in me. And if they believe in me, then I can believe in me." - Mookie Wilson
Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: 1968RR] #685507
05/06/10 06:05 PM
05/06/10 06:05 PM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 2,295
dark side of the moon
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Dougsmopars Offline OP
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Installed the Milodon pump and temp droped 20 to 30 degree's. The 440 source pumps are junk. Even worse when used with there houseing. Cars runs at 185 steady now 190 in stop and go traffic. Now when you rev it up a bit you can see the water really moving in the rad.

Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: Dougsmopars] #685508
05/06/10 06:36 PM
05/06/10 06:36 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 28,312
Cincinnati, Ohio
Challenger 1 Offline
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Quote:

Installed the Milodon pump and temp droped 20 to 30 degree's. The 440 source pumps are junk. Even worse when used with there houseing. Cars runs at 185 steady now 190 in stop and go traffic. Now when you rev it up a bit you can see the water really moving in the rad.




Good to hear, I'm thinking most of the Source stuff is junk.
I don't care for China, I wonder why?

Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: Challenger 1] #685509
05/06/10 06:40 PM
05/06/10 06:40 PM
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dark side of the moon
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Dougsmopars Offline OP
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Car had no over heat issues till i installed the 440 source parts. Trashed that junk pump car is back to normal. That was money down the drain. pump went into trash. I wouldn't sell it to anyone. Made in China = JUNK

Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: Dougsmopars] #685510
05/06/10 06:43 PM
05/06/10 06:43 PM
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 233
NH
Fastback67 Offline
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Quote:

Installed the Milodon pump and temp droped 20 to 30 degree's. The 440 source pumps are junk. Even worse when used with there houseing. Cars runs at 185 steady now 190 in stop and go traffic. Now when you rev it up a bit you can see the water really moving in the rad.




Told ya the pump was junk
The 440 Source pump housing wouldn't be my first choice either. It does work OK, but there are better products available for a similar price

440 Source does put out a lot of good products for us, but this housing & pump assembly is deffinately not one of them.

Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: Fastback67] #685511
05/06/10 06:49 PM
05/06/10 06:49 PM
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Posts: 2,295
dark side of the moon
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Dougsmopars Offline OP
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Well live and learn i guess. Temp is normal now so houseing will stay for the time being. Pump was an easy change. Just got done detailling engine and engine compartment a couple of weeks ago. Didn't want to have to rip to much apart if i didn't have to.

Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: Dougsmopars] #685512
05/06/10 07:32 PM
05/06/10 07:32 PM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 129
wisconsin usa
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moretork03 Offline
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wisconsin usa
anyone having problems with mancini's pump and housing combo?

Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: Dougsmopars] #685513
05/06/10 07:41 PM
05/06/10 07:41 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 18,389
UPPER MICHIGAN, MARQUETTE COUN...
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Quote:

Car had no over heat issues till i installed the 440 source parts. Trashed that junk pump car is back to normal. That was money down the drain. pump went into trash. I wouldn't sell it to anyone. Made in China = JUNK




Why not give it to someone else and see if they have the overheating problem? That would be a good test.

Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: moretork03] #685514
05/06/10 07:43 PM
05/06/10 07:43 PM
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Posts: 4,503
NJ
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440challenger Offline
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Well im in bad shape. i put a 160 stat in and the car is still running at 210-215 on a short cruize. Its almost getting worse not better. i even tried advancing the timing with no change. The intake is so HOT and the rad hoses feel like they are ready to BURST. Could I have a cracked cyclinder head pumping hot exhaust into my coolant? the coolant smelled burnt. Im out of ideas!

Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: 440challenger] #685515
05/06/10 07:57 PM
05/06/10 07:57 PM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 2,295
dark side of the moon
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Dougsmopars Offline OP
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what do you have for fan? Got a shroud on it? Have you had the rad checked? Had that problem with my Road Runner a few years ago. Ended up being rad was clog up in the middle. Water flowed but not enough. Recored it ran cool.

Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: moretork03] #685516
05/06/10 08:02 PM
05/06/10 08:02 PM
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 10,550
Rittman Ohio
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Rittman Ohio
Quote:

anyone having problems with mancini's pump and housing combo?



I have a Mancini housing(looks just like all the other Chinese ones)and a CV electric pump and my car stays at 180 on the open road and comes up to 190-200 in stop and go traffic.Like was posted above 200 degrees is not overheating.Most modern electric fans on your daily driver don't come on until 215-220
Gus


64 Plymouth Savoy
493 Indy EZ's by Nick at Compu-Flow
5-Speed Richmond faceplate Liberty box
Dana 60
Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: Dougsmopars] #685517
05/06/10 08:09 PM
05/06/10 08:09 PM
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NJ
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440challenger Offline
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Its a brand new 26" champion radiator . No shroud, but i dont have one on any of my other RB cars and they run 180

Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: 440challenger] #685518
05/06/10 08:13 PM
05/06/10 08:13 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 28,312
Cincinnati, Ohio
Challenger 1 Offline
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Quote:

Its a brand new 26" champion radiator . No shroud, but i dont have one on any of my other RB cars and they run 180




It sounds like your learning how important shrouds are... It makes a big difference along with a funtioning fan clutch if your running one.

Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: 440challenger] #685519
05/06/10 08:22 PM
05/06/10 08:22 PM
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Fastback67 Offline
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Quote:

Well im in bad shape. i put a 160 stat in and the car is still running at 210-215 on a short cruize. Its almost getting worse not better.




Switching from a 180 to a 160 will only make it worse. If your cooling system can't maintain 180 it's sure as hell not going to maintain 160. The thermostats just going to stay open and the hot water is just going to keep cycling through your block, never stopping in the radiator long enough to be cooled off. Put the 180 back in and move forward from there...

Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: Challenger 1] #685520
05/06/10 08:24 PM
05/06/10 08:24 PM
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NJ
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440challenger Offline
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Im running a brand new fan clutch and they fan is about 3/4 inch away from rad. Like i said i dont run a shroud on my roadrunner or challenger and they run 180. I think it's way beyond a shroud ,because i had an HHR elec fan with shroud and it was doing the same thing.

How can i tell if my lower rad hose is collapsing while driving ? Theres a ton of pressure in it when engines off...

Could i have a blown head gasket/ cracked head causing this overheating issue without the signs of running poorly or smelling antifreeze?

Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: 440challenger] #685521
05/06/10 08:38 PM
05/06/10 08:38 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 28,312
Cincinnati, Ohio
Challenger 1 Offline
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Quote:

Im running a brand new fan clutch and they fan is about 3/4 inch away from rad. Like i said i dont run a shroud on my roadrunner or challenger and they run 180. I think it's way beyond a shroud ,because i had an HHR elec fan with shroud and it was doing the same thing.

How can i tell if my lower rad hose is collapsing while driving ? Theres a ton of pressure in it when engines off...

Could i have a blown head gasket/ cracked head causing this overheating issue without the signs of running poorly or smelling antifreeze?





Doubt head gasket or crack since it's running good.

Put a spring in the lower hose if it don't have one.
When in stop and go traffic shrouds become more important, I'm telling you.

you sure there's no air in the system?

Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: Challenger 1] #685522
05/06/10 08:42 PM
05/06/10 08:42 PM
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440challenger Offline
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I will try the spring. I know the shrouds help, but while doing my testing im cruizing down back roads with no stop and go traffic in cool 65-70 degree weather for only about 10-15 minutes. The car runs like an animal.

Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: 440challenger] #685523
05/06/10 08:45 PM
05/06/10 08:45 PM
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Cincinnati, Ohio
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Oh like what was said, go back to a 180 or even 195 stat. Good luck

Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: 440challenger] #685524
05/07/10 05:34 PM
05/07/10 05:34 PM
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NJ
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440challenger Offline
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well i got a blown head gasket or cracked head. I did a coolant test and there is exhaust gasses in the coolant. time to rip apart a fresh motor in a freshly restored car. ahh the fun

Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: 440challenger] #685525
05/07/10 08:15 PM
05/07/10 08:15 PM
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Suffolk,VA
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ireland383 Offline
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Sorry to hear that. What head gaskets did you have on the build? What heads also?

Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: ireland383] #685526
05/07/10 08:18 PM
05/07/10 08:18 PM
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Suffolk,VA
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ireland383 Offline
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Nevermind I read your other post.

Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: 1965_PLYMOUTH] #685527
05/09/10 08:02 PM
05/09/10 08:02 PM
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Posts: 74,907
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR Offline
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Quote:

how heavy of radiator caps are you guys running that have heating issues? excessive pressure builds excessive heat.




I think you have that backwards , the heat builds the pressure .

Also one thing some of you are forgetting is the new cars running higher coolant temps also run HIGHER SYSTEM pressure , I had to buy an upgrade kit for my rad pressure tester , it tests up to 30 psi now .

Last edited by JohnRR; 05/12/10 09:31 AM.
Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: JohnRR] #685528
05/10/10 06:00 AM
05/10/10 06:00 AM
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Posts: 10,847
Oakdale CT
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Quote:


Also one thing some of you are forgetting is the new cars running higher collant temps also run HIGHER SYSTEM pressure , I had to buy an upgrade kit for my rad pressure tester , it tests up to 30 psi now .




Higher system pressure raises the boiling point of water and helps prevent steam pockects.

Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: gdonovan] #685529
05/10/10 04:34 PM
05/10/10 04:34 PM
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Posts: 2,295
dark side of the moon
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Dougsmopars Offline OP
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dark side of the moon
Higher presure cap does not raise water temp. It raises boiling point. Yes new cars do run hotter but lets not forget the new motors are built to much better tolerences. New cars run 200,000 miles all the time. The 60's motors were worn out at 70 or 80 K on them.

Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: fourgearsavoy] #685530
05/10/10 04:53 PM
05/10/10 04:53 PM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 733
Long Island NY
yellow sixpack Offline
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Heres an article for you. http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,60599.0.html

Last edited by yellow sixpack; 05/10/10 04:56 PM.

If you can't be smart.....don't be stupid!
Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: GTXKen] #685531
05/10/10 06:53 PM
05/10/10 06:53 PM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 936
own private Idaho
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ngpSatellite Offline
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Quote:

I just pulled the source pump and housing in favor of a stock housing and milodon pump. Hasn't been hot enough to make a difference but I will report back.


... FINALLY!!! THE MYSTERY IS SOLVED!!! ....HATS off to Doug for the topic and NachoRT74 for that awesome link put a stock housing on and a milodon pump and it cruzed all day long in 90+ florida heat yesterday, stop and go, everywhere!!! The 440 housing I had, you could barly get your pinky into the 90 deg turn in the lower opening. I put that 440 housing and pump on my new motor 2 1/2 years ago and could'nt get the temp down but never suspected the housing because it was brand new..........

Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: Dougsmopars] #685532
05/10/10 07:20 PM
05/10/10 07:20 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,309
Prospect, PA
BSB67 Offline
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Quote:

.....Yes new cars do run hotter but lets not forget the new motors are built to much better tolerences. New cars run 200,000 miles all the time. The 60's motors were worn out at 70 or 80 K on them.




Hmmmm. Bit of a simplification. Maybe the 4 or 5 speed overdrive lock up converters have a little something to do with it and their 2.0 final overall drive ratios.

Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: BSB67] #685533
05/10/10 07:39 PM
05/10/10 07:39 PM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 2,295
dark side of the moon
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Dougsmopars Offline OP
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there also computer controlled. Running a 60's motor runnung at todays engine temps would kill them in 30K miles.

Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: Dougsmopars] #685534
05/10/10 09:49 PM
05/10/10 09:49 PM
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Prospect, PA
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Please be more specific.

Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: Dougsmopars] #685535
05/11/10 12:45 AM
05/11/10 12:45 AM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,698
NE Oklahoma
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Von Offline
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Quote:

there also computer controlled. Running a 60's motor runnung at todays engine temps would kill them in 30K miles.




Do tell............


72 RR, Pump gas 440, 452s, 3800 lbs, Corked, ET Radials,. 11.33@117.72. Same car, bone stock 346s, 9.5 comp, baby solid. 12.24@110.
Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: Dougsmopars] #685536
05/11/10 05:46 AM
05/11/10 05:46 AM
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 10,847
Oakdale CT
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Quote:

Higher presure cap does not raise water temp. It raises boiling point.





"Higher system pressure raises the boiling point of water"

Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: Dougsmopars] #685537
05/11/10 06:07 PM
05/11/10 06:07 PM
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 171
Illinois, USA
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superbee69 Offline
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I bought r/h inlet 440 source housing & under the thermostat there was a 1/2 inch passage cast shut except 1/8 hole on l/h side mybe your problem

Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump *DELETED* [Re: Dougsmopars] #685538
05/11/10 08:46 PM
05/11/10 08:46 PM
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N.Wilkesboro,NC
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Post deleted by DusterKrazy

Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: DusterKrazy] #685539
05/11/10 08:48 PM
05/11/10 08:48 PM
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N.Wilkesboro,NC
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DusterKrazy Offline
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Quote:

Quote:

Higher presure cap does not raise water temp. It raises boiling point. Yes new cars do run hotter but lets not forget the new motors are built to much better tolerences. New cars run 200,000 miles all the time. The 60's motors were worn out at 70 or 80 K on them.




I do not agree. I've never seen a 318 worn out at 70-80k miles, much less a /6. If they wore out it is simply because people did not take care of them

Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: DusterKrazy] #685540
05/11/10 09:21 PM
05/11/10 09:21 PM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 2,295
dark side of the moon
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Dougsmopars Offline OP
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The exception not the rule. a 300 Ford would run for 100,00 with a knock. That does not mean every american engine ever built in the 50's and 60's would run for 200,000 like the newer motors do. Anybody that has spent any time working on cars will know that. Into the early 80's american car engines were worn out around 90 to 100 K. Simple fact. Lot's have changed since then. Back in the 70's and 80's they were rotted to the door handle's in 5 years. You don't see them rotted like that anymore.

Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: Dougsmopars] #685541
05/11/10 10:50 PM
05/11/10 10:50 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,698
NE Oklahoma
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Von Offline
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Quote:

there also computer controlled. Running a 60's motor runnung at todays engine temps would kill them in 30K miles.




Still waiting for a detailed explanation of the above claim.


72 RR, Pump gas 440, 452s, 3800 lbs, Corked, ET Radials,. 11.33@117.72. Same car, bone stock 346s, 9.5 comp, baby solid. 12.24@110.
Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: Von] #685542
05/11/10 11:04 PM
05/11/10 11:04 PM
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Posts: 10,178
Someplace you aren't
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If you run a 440 at 220 degrees, it won't like it. New engines run even hotter than that at times IIRC.


I want my fair share
Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: Dougsmopars] #685543
05/12/10 10:59 AM
05/12/10 10:59 AM
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Posts: 17,801
S.E. Michigan
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Good Grief.

So many comments, so little information.

It's really quite simple:
Either coolant flow is adequate, or it isn't.

"Running something at 2-- degrees" and the engine's relative happiness or unhappiess doesn't account for where the temp is measured.

Does anyone believe that the location in the water pump where the sensor is located is the be all, end all?

It's not that a 440 "doesn't like" the temp being at
200-something degrees---they will, in fact, run hundreds of thousands of miles if the true coolant temp at the hottest point in the engine is 210 to 220. The problem is that the coolant temp isn't being measured at it's hottest point, and we don't know what it is at the hottest point when driving down the road.

What do all the gurus think the coolant temperature is in the middle of the cylinder head, where two exhaust valves are located right next to each other? How about inside the block, directly below that area? Here's a hint: It's a whole lot hotter than where the temp is measured at in the water pump!

The water pump housings in question sound screwed up to me, I either use stock ones or MP Aluminum.... but beyond that most of this discussion seems kinda hopeless....I mean...Older cars worn out at 70k miles? WTH does that have to do with a coolant temp discussion? My 176,000 mile '78 B body and my 210,000 mile '83 M body kinda kill that statement anyway. If all your stuff is worn out at 70k miles, you're doing something wrong


Rich H.

Esse Quam Videri




Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: ZIPPY] #685544
05/12/10 11:45 AM
05/12/10 11:45 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,907
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR Offline
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Quote:

Good Grief.

So many comments, so little information.

It's really quite simple:
Either coolant flow is adequate, or it isn't.

"Running something at 2-- degrees" and the engine's relative happiness or unhappiess doesn't account for where the temp is measured.

Does anyone believe that the location in the water pump where the sensor is located is the be all, end all?

It's not that a 440 "doesn't like" the temp being at
200-something degrees---they will, in fact, run hundreds of thousands of miles if the true coolant temp at the hottest point in the engine is 210 to 220. The problem is that the coolant temp isn't being measured at it's hottest point, and we don't know what it is at the hottest point when driving down the road.

What do all the gurus think the coolant temperature is in the middle of the cylinder head, where two exhaust valves are located right next to each other? How about inside the block, directly below that area? Here's a hint: It's a whole lot hotter than where the temp is measured at in the water pump!

The water pump housings in question sound screwed up to me, I either use stock ones or MP Aluminum.... but beyond that most of this discussion seems kinda hopeless....I mean...Older cars worn out at 70k miles? WTH does that have to do with a coolant temp discussion? My 176,000 mile '78 B body and my 210,000 mile '83 M body kinda kill that statement anyway. If all your stuff is worn out at 70k miles, you're doing something wrong





Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: JohnRR] #685545
05/12/10 12:26 PM
05/12/10 12:26 PM
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Posts: 10,178
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SomeCarGuy Offline
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Ok, so if my 383 starts running at 220+, measured in the same place that it currently runs 190-200 at the most, I guess I shouldn't be concerned????

Hogwash. Older engines aren't made to run at the same temps that modern ones are.

Yes, we are aware that the coolant runs MUCH hotter at the heads, that is not the point of that at all.

Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: DusterKrazy] #685546
05/12/10 04:07 PM
05/12/10 04:07 PM
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 10,847
Oakdale CT
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Quote:



I do not agree. I've never seen a 318 worn out at 70-80k miles, much less a /6. If they wore out it is simply because people did not take care of them




I found the claim rather amusing as well considering my Duster has a 318 with 119,000 miles on the clock and it runs great.

Under the work bench I have several 440 engines and most of them had over 100k on the clock too when they were pulled from cars several years ago.

Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: ZIPPY] #685547
05/13/10 06:13 AM
05/13/10 06:13 AM
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,061
New Mexico
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dmerc Offline
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For what it's worth, I just got a CAT water pump for my 360 engine and it has an impeller designed for CCW rotation(looking at the pulley end.) If you spin an impeller backwards, it will pump fluid but at a reduced rate. I'll be sending this pump back. See the attachment. Maybe Doug is having the same problem?

5979910-rotate.gif (100 downloads)
Last edited by dmerc; 05/13/10 06:51 AM.
Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: dmerc] #685548
06/24/10 09:47 PM
06/24/10 09:47 PM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 130
Marcell, MN
68 Roadrunner Offline
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Marcell, MN
I finally have run my new motor enough to say that I am having NO problems with my 440 Source housing & pump. I put in a 160 T-stat and the hottest I have seen it is 170.


1968 Roadrunner 383 auto .060 KB 400 domed pistons, Stealth heads, Torker intake, Holley 830, Lunati Voodoo cam 276/284, .513/.533, TCI 3500, 3.91 gears, all ARP fasteners,
Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: 68 Roadrunner] #685549
06/25/10 01:49 PM
06/25/10 01:49 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 477
mr norms avenue
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this was a great thread to read. My friends 440 daytona ran hot when he put a new pump on (think it was a 440source believe it or not), and when he went and talked to another daytona owner, who convinced him the stock pump is a better bet to get rebuilt (which he did), it ran cooler right away.

It always pays to check the fan clutch on high milege cars, I had a 395/425hp vette that is factory 11:1 compression. The new edlebrock water pump I put on that was not as good as the original one (rebuilt), it actually ran hotter. It did not move the water at idle like the factory pump, at all. Also, the fan clutch, was shot with the fluid that leaked out over time. I always vindicate looking at the fan clutch, like said on this thread.

Also, if your car is a high compression motor, I strongly recommend keeping the octane high. My vette runs great, if its largely on racing fuel. Nice and cool. If I ever put in 93 octane, if I have to cause it gets low, it wants to run hot, then overheats. With that car, the octane level makes all the difference. I also run it rich, to help keep it cool. A lean carb will come back and bite you with 10s of degrees on the temp guage. My friends daytona shed some temp when he added some octane booster.

my 2 cents. always rebuilt the factory pump first (do not assume new pumps are better than the factory pump), make sure the fan clutch locks up at temperature (and does not slip), and have the right fuel/octane and set the carb on the rich side.


67 hemi GTX silver 4spd, 70 cuda convert 340 4spd, 71 cuda 340 4spd (Curious Yellow, white billboards/interior), 70 Mr Norm's Challenger 440 4spd
Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: SomeCarGuy] #685550
06/25/10 04:00 PM
06/25/10 04:00 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17,801
S.E. Michigan
ZIPPY Offline
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"hogwash" to comments that were never made, Oooo kay...

It's a free country, feel free to debate something that never existed

People are always looking for the cheapest possible thing they can get, but at the same time they just have to have the trick of the week because it makes their 3900lb car 8lbs lighter.

A stock 1969 iron housing from the junkyard will function properly, was made properly, and looks great after blasting and paint. If a person wants to cheap out, that's how to do it. Forget aluminum unless a little extra money is available for one well known to work properly.


Rich H.

Esse Quam Videri




Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: ZIPPY] #685551
06/25/10 05:24 PM
06/25/10 05:24 PM
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 768
Maryville tn
67coronetman Offline
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Maryville tn
Well i am having the same problem getting hot.! i am going to take off that 440 source pump and put a stock one on asap.! and see how it does.!!


Old car are me......
Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: 67coronetman] #685552
06/25/10 06:25 PM
06/25/10 06:25 PM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 2,295
dark side of the moon
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Dougsmopars Offline OP
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I put the high flow Milodon pump with there high flow stat temp droped 20 degree's.

Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: Dougsmopars] #685553
07/16/10 10:41 PM
07/16/10 10:41 PM
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Posts: 14,889
up yours
Supercuda Offline
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Quote:

I put the high flow Milodon pump with there high flow stat temp droped 20 degree's.




But according to some the hot water won't stay in the radiator long enough to get cooled off (horsefeather).

Lot's of shadetree comments, some grossly wrong, in this thread. 70-80k out of an old engine then it's junk, right. Sounds like that shadetree is missing a lot of leaves and someone got sun stroke there.


They say there are no such thing as a stupid question.
They say there is always the exception that proves the rule.
Don't be the exception.
Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: ZIPPY] #685554
07/17/10 12:34 AM
07/17/10 12:34 AM
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Posts: 10,178
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SomeCarGuy Offline
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Quote:

"hogwash" to comments that were never made, Oooo kay...

It's a free country, feel free to debate something that never existed






Sorry Zip, you said this, so yes, the comment was made. Therefore, my comment in reply that an engine running hotter than before when measured in the same location was valid. It is perfectly fine to debate things. Here are your comments-

"The problem is that the coolant temp isn't being measured at it's hottest point, and we don't know what it is at the hottest point when driving down the road."

Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: SomeCarGuy] #685555
07/17/10 01:19 PM
07/17/10 01:19 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,100
Tucson, AZ
Ramrod39 Offline
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I just pulled my receipts. I have the Mancini pump and housing. No problems with the Mancini pump?

Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: Ramrod39] #685556
07/17/10 03:09 PM
07/17/10 03:09 PM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 130
Marcell, MN
68 Roadrunner Offline
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Just thought I would give a quick update. Still no problems with my 440 source pump and housing. I have never seen the temp gauge over 190.


1968 Roadrunner 383 auto .060 KB 400 domed pistons, Stealth heads, Torker intake, Holley 830, Lunati Voodoo cam 276/284, .513/.533, TCI 3500, 3.91 gears, all ARP fasteners,
Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: JohnRR] #685557
07/18/10 09:05 AM
07/18/10 09:05 AM
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,336
South-Central (Sebring), FL
Commando1 Offline
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Quote:

Quote:

Good Grief.

So many comments, so little information...








+1
This thread never should have run beyond 1 page...

Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: ZIPPY] #685558
07/18/10 11:33 AM
07/18/10 11:33 AM
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Posts: 2,295
dark side of the moon
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Dougsmopars Offline OP
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I hate to hurt your feelings but i didn't buy the aluminum houseing to save weight in my 3900 lb car. My orignal houseing was damaged and i wanted a new one. Finding good used 40 year old parts is not easy in my area. No local yards still have any. They have all gone late model. New one was a phone call away. As far as i know there are no brand new cast iron ones out there. I suspose i could have left the car tied up for weeks waitting to find one on ebag and hope it wasn't damaged when it got here. Houseing was not replaced to save 8 pounds it was replaced to get the car back on the road. I'm happy that you have access to a large supply of good used parts for your 40 year old mopar but not everyone does.

Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: Supercuda] #685559
07/18/10 11:42 AM
07/18/10 11:42 AM
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Dougsmopars Offline OP
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Shade tree ??? Sorry my friend but i've been in the auto business over 35 years. Not a back yard machinic. If you really beleive that motors from the 50's and 60's lasted as long as the new motors and being as trouble free then it shows who is under that shady tree. In the 70's garages did motor swaps weely. Ask your local garage how many motor swaps they do now. Ask your local yard how many motors they sold in the 70's every week and how many they sell now. Late model motors run 150 to 200,000 miles with no major repairs when maintained. 50's and 60's motors never did. Yes there were a few exceptions but not as a rule. It's a very well known fact in the industry that the late model motors are designed and built better then ever and last longer then ever.

Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: Dougsmopars] #685560
07/18/10 03:28 PM
07/18/10 03:28 PM
Joined: Mar 2007
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South-Central (Sebring), FL
Commando1 Offline
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Quote:

It's a very well known fact in the industry that the late model motors are designed and built better then ever and last longer then ever.



I grant you that fact.
Hopefully, you'll you'll allow me to express something I believe in. It's a guess. No facts to back it up.
I feel if you take a good 60's - 70's engine, and, rebuild it using the best of today's components, it will last longer than today's overstressed (in my opinion) engines.

Also, take away the 'puter from today's engines, I feel, actually puts them at a disadvantage.

But again, I WILL grant you theyare seriously more efficient at extracting the last hp out of engines designed today. I just don't think they are "better". I really don't want a 3.sumthing engine putting out 500+ hp in my DD. I hate things run at 150% day in and day out. I feel safer crossing a bridge with a safety factor of 2 rather than one that has it's capacity at it's 150% physical limits. Yes the new bridge will work quite nicely. When new.

One last question to ponder, and maybe slightly OT, but what do you think an engine designed TODAY would look like if gasoline was still at $0.25/gallon (comparitively), and, let the marketplace drive design rather than federal regulators?.

Last edited by Commando1; 07/18/10 03:39 PM.
Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: Dougsmopars] #685561
07/18/10 04:10 PM
07/18/10 04:10 PM
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JohnRR Offline
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Quote:

I suspose i could have left the car tied up for weeks waitting to find one on ebag and hope it wasn't damaged when it got here.




Did you post a want ad, I must have at least 5 68-69 housings in the basement.

I replaced mine to save the weight , 8 lbs off the nose is 8 lbs off the nose ...

Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: Dougsmopars] #685562
07/18/10 09:21 PM
07/18/10 09:21 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
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808CUDA Offline
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Quote:

I put the high flow Milodon pump with there high flow stat temp droped 20 degree's.




Thanks for the update Doug, I ordered my Milodon HV pump and stat today. I'll post my findings when I get it done.

Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: 808CUDA] #685563
07/18/10 09:34 PM
07/18/10 09:34 PM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 16,453
Canada
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There are two different big block Milodon water pumps I think- any idea which part# is better for a street car?
I have a 440source water pump, I would rather TRY a Milodon and make sure the pump I have isn't a factor- my Mr Gasket high flow stat sure was..... I want to compare water pumps next....


CrAzYMoPaRGuY
Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: 808CUDA] #685564
07/18/10 09:40 PM
07/18/10 09:40 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,547
State College, PA
RyanJ Offline
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State College, PA
Interesting reading....

I put a new 440Source pump & Housing on my 600 HP 440 in my Daily Driver '68 RR last year because I am cheap LOL Never really spent too much time looking @ either piece... only issue I ran into is the pump impeller is VERY tight to the housing, so tight that with no gasket they touch... the thickness of the water pump gasket IS the clearance between the impeller & the housing...

Have to say this motor probably runs cooler than any I've ever built. 160 T stat & it will sit on 160-165 on any "normal day" I just drive it 120+ miles to track & back couple weeks ago on a 94 degree Saturday... Climbing 7 mountains here in PA on 322 (very long very gruelling mountain climb) I never saw over 174 degrees. This is alum head (INDY EZ's) with killer big Alum rad & high flow mechanical fan...

It will climb to about 180 if you sit @ stop light for 2-3 minutes in high heat day.. so the low speed flow is not worlds greatest, as some have mentioned. If I was really concerned about that I'd put an electric pump on it, which has constant flow rate... as soon as you start moving again & RPM's come up above 2000, temp comes right back down into the 160's. If you are really concerned about high temps sitting @ a light or in heavy traffic, pop it into neutral or push in clutch & rev motor a few times, helps circulate water, & will keep temps lower...

Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: CrAzYMoPaRGuY] #685565
07/19/10 11:20 AM
07/19/10 11:20 AM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,675
Mt. Eden Ky.
Hemi Allstate Offline
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Hemi Allstate  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,675
Mt. Eden Ky.
Quote:

There are two different big block Milodon water pumps I think- any idea which part# is better for a street car?
I have a 440source water pump, I would rather TRY a Milodon and make sure the pump I have isn't a factor- my Mr Gasket high flow stat sure was..... I want to compare water pumps next....




What were your issues with the MR Gasket stat?
I am using the Source pump and housing on the 472 Hemi in the 69 RR I am working on. I will see if it is a problem on this one. It has a 26" Afco custom radiator.
This was my engine, and is similar to yours, minus the ultra cool induction you have!
Is this the Milodon pump to use?

http://www.summitracing.com/parts.aspx?sku=MIL-16260

Mark


http://marsh-racing.com/Mark%20Mahorney-Allstate.htm
1996 Ram 1500 Sport
1968 road runner
1952 Sears Allstate licensed, pump gas, Hemi 5.98 @ 115.73 1.33 60 ft. The best is yet to come. Painless Performance / Street RODDER magazine Top 100 for 2019
Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: Hemi Allstate] #685566
07/19/10 05:54 PM
07/19/10 05:54 PM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 16,453
Canada
CrAzYMoPaRGuY Offline
I Live Here
CrAzYMoPaRGuY  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2004
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Canada
Quote:

Quote:

There are two different big block Milodon water pumps I think- any idea which part# is better for a street car?
I have a 440source water pump, I would rather TRY a Milodon and make sure the pump I have isn't a factor- my Mr Gasket high flow stat sure was..... I want to compare water pumps next....




What were your issues with the MR Gasket stat?
I am using the Source pump and housing on the 472 Hemi in the 69 RR I am working on. I will see if it is a problem on this one. It has a 26" Afco custom radiator.
This was my engine, and is similar to yours, minus the ultra cool induction you have!
Is this the Milodon pump to use?

http://www.summitracing.com/parts.aspx?sku=MIL-16260

Mark




I put it in another thread Mark.... but I was thinking my Jensen was running warm. I eventually found a little coolant seepage coming from my thermostat gasket, so I bought a new gasket.... AND a Stant 160 degree thermostat.
I tossed both the Mr Gasket 160 high flow stat and the Stant 160 stat into a pot filled with water, then added heat.
The Stant stat started opening at 165 degrees, it was fully open by 170 degrees.
The Mr Gasket 160 high flow stat started opening at.... well.... the water got to 210 degrees and the stat NEVER opened!!!!! I tried it a few times!

I heard a ton of bad things about them here and there on the internet but always thought it was probably some other problem, that kinda thing...
Now I'm gonna stay away from the Mr Gasket high flow stats!!!!

I have a 440source pump on my Jensen, I just HAVE to try a Milodon to see if it makes a difference.
I'm trying to get a 16260 as we speak!


CrAzYMoPaRGuY
Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: CrAzYMoPaRGuY] #685567
07/19/10 07:08 PM
07/19/10 07:08 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,186
Wherever I am.
J
Junky Offline
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Wherever I am.
Aren't all the "high flow" thermostats (like Mr. Gasket) made by Robert Shaw?


2010 Black Challenger SE <> 3.5 V6
Custom Shift Knobs www.flameball.com Check It Out
Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: Junky] #685568
07/19/10 07:35 PM
07/19/10 07:35 PM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 16,453
Canada
CrAzYMoPaRGuY Offline
I Live Here
CrAzYMoPaRGuY  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 16,453
Canada
Quote:

Aren't all the "high flow" thermostats (like Mr. Gasket) made by Robert Shaw?




I'm not sure. I still have my less than stellar one, I could take a photo?

I couldn't find a Milodon 16260 on short notice, I ended up grabbing an Edelbrock 8814 pump so I'll have to see if there is a difference over the 440source pump......


CrAzYMoPaRGuY
Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: CrAzYMoPaRGuY] #685569
07/19/10 09:21 PM
07/19/10 09:21 PM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,675
Mt. Eden Ky.
Hemi Allstate Offline
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Hemi Allstate  Offline
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Mt. Eden Ky.
Quote:

Quote:

Aren't all the "high flow" thermostats (like Mr. Gasket) made by Robert Shaw?




I'm not sure. I still have my less than stellar one, I could take a photo?

I couldn't find a Milodon 16260 on short notice, I ended up grabbing an Edelbrock 8814 pump so I'll have to see if there is a difference over the 440source pump......





Do you know if the same problem holds true for the Milodon high flow t-stat? I have purchase two of them for projects. I also put one in a friends blown 360 Dart, that runs a bit too hot!


http://marsh-racing.com/Mark%20Mahorney-Allstate.htm
1996 Ram 1500 Sport
1968 road runner
1952 Sears Allstate licensed, pump gas, Hemi 5.98 @ 115.73 1.33 60 ft. The best is yet to come. Painless Performance / Street RODDER magazine Top 100 for 2019
Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: Hemi Allstate] #685570
07/19/10 10:50 PM
07/19/10 10:50 PM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 16,453
Canada
CrAzYMoPaRGuY Offline
I Live Here
CrAzYMoPaRGuY  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 16,453
Canada
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Aren't all the "high flow" thermostats (like Mr. Gasket) made by Robert Shaw?




I'm not sure. I still have my less than stellar one, I could take a photo?

I couldn't find a Milodon 16260 on short notice, I ended up grabbing an Edelbrock 8814 pump so I'll have to see if there is a difference over the 440source pump......





Do you know if the same problem holds true for the Milodon high flow t-stat? I have purchase two of them for projects. I also put one in a friends blown 360 Dart, that runs a bit too hot!




I looked at both in pictures, they sure look the same but I can't say either way with certainty.
I'll take a few pics and post them later.... I have heard many things bad about the Mr Gasket high flows but always took the posts with a grain of salt. BUT.... it still bothered the back of my mind....
I am now pulling off my 440Source pump. I don't BELIEVE it isn't doing it's job, but I will straight swap the pump to my brand new Edelbrock 8814 and report back if there ARE any changes whatsoever....
I don't mind experimenting, and I want my car running with NO heat issues whatsoever. I don't care WHAT it takes to get there!
I want my coolant to be cooooool while I'm driving so I can pay more attention to my Lucas wiring going up in smoke.


CrAzYMoPaRGuY
Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: CrAzYMoPaRGuY] #685571
07/19/10 11:04 PM
07/19/10 11:04 PM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 16,453
Canada
CrAzYMoPaRGuY Offline
I Live Here
CrAzYMoPaRGuY  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 16,453
Canada
SoooOoooooo...........

Take a guess which one is the freshly removed 44source pump, and which is the Edelbrock 8814.

It's now going in, no idea what to expect, but the differences are easy to see with a casual glance IMO......?

6095099-pumps.jpg (147 downloads)

CrAzYMoPaRGuY
Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: CrAzYMoPaRGuY] #685572
07/19/10 11:12 PM
07/19/10 11:12 PM
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,300
Northern Indiana
Dunnuck Racing Offline
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Dunnuck Racing  Offline
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Posts: 3,300
Northern Indiana
Sorry I did not catch this on here to warn you,butI took the Edelbrock pump off of my 440 in my dually.It was running hotter than I cared for.The previous owner had put this on it,and had a hi-dollar Griffin radiator,shroud,etc.I compared the Edelbrock pump to a 440 Source pump and they are as close of exact copies as you could get.I assume the Edelbrock design is what they were trying to copy.
Anyway,I went with a flow cooler pump and dropped 20+ degrees from this thing compared to the Edelbrock pump.
Save yourself the trouble,the expensive Edelbrock pump sucks too.

Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: Dunnuck Racing] #685573
07/19/10 11:55 PM
07/19/10 11:55 PM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 16,453
Canada
CrAzYMoPaRGuY Offline
I Live Here
CrAzYMoPaRGuY  Offline
I Live Here

Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 16,453
Canada
Quote:

Sorry I did not catch this on here to warn you,butI took the Edelbrock pump off of my 440 in my dually.It was running hotter than I cared for.The previous owner had put this on it,and had a hi-dollar Griffin radiator,shroud,etc.I compared the Edelbrock pump to a 440 Source pump and they are as close of exact copies as you could get.I assume the Edelbrock design is what they were trying to copy.
Anyway,I went with a flow cooler pump and dropped 20+ degrees from this thing compared to the Edelbrock pump.
Save yourself the trouble,the expensive Edelbrock pump sucks too.




That's an Edelbrock beside a 440source pump right above in the pic. They are different just from a glance IMO. The Edelbrock impeller wheel is a much larger diameter..

And I've heard a few complaints about the FlowKoolers falling apart, maybe somebody else could chime in, but I was going to run a FlowKooler on my Coupe and got several bad feedbacks on them!

Are ANY of them good?
Makes me think a stock factory waterpump is worth looking at....?


CrAzYMoPaRGuY
Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: Dougsmopars] #685574
07/20/10 12:08 AM
07/20/10 12:08 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 21,474
N.E. OHIO, USA
A12 Offline
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A12  Offline
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N.E. OHIO, USA
IT'S THE CAM!!!!!!


Quote:

My 440 ran 190 on hottest days. Installed new cam,Installed new cam, Installed new cam,Installed new cam, and went to 440 source water pump housing and pump. Car runs hot now and summer hasn't started. Will adding electric fan help or do i have to dump the 440 source parts?




Which cam did you install when you started having over heating problems? I guess that's where the term "just installed a HOT cam" came from You've done everything but change the cam or did I miss that part?

Just my but I'm betting the cam is the "source" of all of your high temp problems.


MikeR

Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: A12] #685575
07/20/10 12:52 AM
07/20/10 12:52 AM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 2,537
PORT ALBERNI , BC., CANADA
superwrench Offline
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superwrench  Offline
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Posts: 2,537
PORT ALBERNI , BC., CANADA
Well....you guys got me to thinking about my overheating problem now!!!
I changed over from a MP viscous drive fan to the HHR electric fan about 4 months ago.
I then noticed that the car was not cooling down as it normally would,and the lower rad hose was always quite cool where as the top hose was singin' hot. The fan wanted to run almost continuously.
So....this thread got the best of me so I took out the Source pump tonite and put in a MP aluminum one.
Result......the car will sit and idle now with the fan cutting in and out at about 185*....just over the stat temp of 180. It hasn't done that for months!!!
I'm sort of thinking that the curved vane design is not as good as the old "paddle wheel" set up on the Mopar pump and it wasn't pumping as hard. What d'ya think???
I'll find out this Friday at our Outlaw Shootout because it's been pretty hot lately and once I get down to the last few cars, the hotlapping usually takes it toll.
Lets hope.....

Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: superwrench] #685576
07/20/10 03:27 PM
07/20/10 03:27 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,888
Athens, Greece
Pyper70 Offline
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Pyper70  Offline
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Posts: 5,888
Athens, Greece
On the recommendation of a few here...I sold my 440 Source housing and pump on Ebay....I just didnt wanna be a statistic. I will be ordering a brand new one from Mazzolini. Even Mazz said that the 440 stuff is hit or miss...usually a miss....I just hope those Rods and crank hold together.

I still have the stock Cast Iron on my block, runs 210 on a summer day when it is 85*F outside...I am doing house renovations this summer so working on the cooling system will be a Winter job and probably won't have any news til then


Family owned 1969 Charger R/T DualQuad 440/727/GVO/3.55s
Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: CrAzYMoPaRGuY] #685577
07/20/10 03:40 PM
07/20/10 03:40 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,888
Athens, Greece
Pyper70 Offline
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Pyper70  Offline
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Posts: 5,888
Athens, Greece
Quote:



so I bought a new gasket.... AND a Stant 160 degree thermostat.
I tossed both the Mr Gasket 160 high flow stat and the Stant 160 stat into a pot filled with water, then added heat.
The Stant stat started opening at 165 degrees, it was fully open by 170 degrees.
The Mr Gasket 160 high flow stat started opening at.... well.... the water got to 210 degrees and the stat NEVER opened!!!!! I tried it a few times!






I think I was one of the you took with a grain of salt. I was getting a bad overheating problem and I yanked the 160*F Mr. Gasket T-Stat out and tested it. I started opening at 195*F. I chucked it in a box. I installed the smaller throat 160*F Stant but the Premium one from Napa. It started opening at 155 and full open by 168*F.

On my last visit to the States I went looking for Mopar 160*F / 180*F T-Stats from Mr. G....Nothing....Special Order...I guess no one wants to carry them anymore. All I could find was Ford and GM. I won't buy another Mr. G T-Stat again.

I actually used 2 thermocouples in my testing of the T-Stats. My readings were accurate. My heat source was controlled, elevated 1 degree every 30 seconds for the first 100 and then 1/2 degree per minute degree the last 100.

Amazing how the 40 yr old design still outperforms the new design and still costs $4 compared to $10 (not to mention all the other damage you are inflicting on your system)


Family owned 1969 Charger R/T DualQuad 440/727/GVO/3.55s
Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: JohnRR] #685578
07/20/10 05:37 PM
07/20/10 05:37 PM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 2,295
dark side of the moon
D
Dougsmopars Offline OP
top fuel
Dougsmopars  Offline OP
top fuel
D

Joined: May 2005
Posts: 2,295
dark side of the moon
Why buy a used houseing sight unseen when i could go online and get a brand new delivered in 2 days? I'm not restoring a 100 point show car. Who cares if the houseing is aluminum? It works and car is on the road. If someone local had one i would have gotten it. Buying used it would have taken weeks to post wait for reply. get pics then wait for delivery. New on line was at my house in 2 days.

Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump [Re: 808CUDA] #685579
07/20/10 08:07 PM
07/20/10 08:07 PM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 733
Long Island NY
yellow sixpack Offline
super stock
yellow sixpack  Offline
super stock

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 733
Long Island NY
Anything they sell is
And there shipping charges are threw the roof.
I would never buy anything from them again.


If you can't be smart.....don't be stupid!
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