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Wire guage #618622
02/20/10 12:15 PM
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What guage wire is the main power feed on the harness under the dash? This is for a 1970 Duster. Mine needs replaced, and I want to be sure to get the correct size wire for the job. Would a larger guage be a better idea?

TIA!!!

Re: Wire guage [Re: 70duster340] #618623
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larger would be better. I think it is 12,but not sure. I currently run 8.

Re: Wire guage [Re: 70duster340] #618624
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Quote:

Would a larger guage be a better idea?


yes but unless you upgraded everything I'd think there would be a smaller gauge somewhere in the circuit which would still limit flow.I'd say you'd be better off cleaning EVERY connection & concentrate on why your main feed went out and possibly run Nacho's parallel bulkhead bypass (it's in the archives) and there's always the 8ga direct cable addition from the batt to the alt (w a 12ga fusible link)to consider. do you have stereos/amps or any similar additions? www.mymopar has wiring diagrams that may have the gauge listed for you on them.


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Re: Wire guage [Re: RapidRobert] #618625
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Thanks for the replies. Robert, the main feed hasn't gone out. I'm off work on an injury, so I have time to kill. I was gonna go over the wire harness and fix any loose connections, and replace the main feed, since it looks shady to me. I plan on replacing that wire, along with the one for the ammeter (which I'm not sure I will use), and clean and/or replace any terminals that need it. The only addition I was gonna have was a graphic equalizer/amp, which is very small. The car will have no A/C, no power brakes, nor power steering. Manual windows and locks, as well. It's a 4-speed, too.

Any tips or suggestions???

Re: Wire guage [Re: 70duster340] #618626
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Hey Robert, can you advise where the parallel bulkhead bypass is at? I tried to locate it, but didn't have any luck. Maybe I'm just missing it, but I would appreciate it if you could at least give me a link so I can study up on this.

Thanks much!!!

Re: Wire guage [Re: 70duster340] #618627
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I swore it was in the archives but I could not find it either (& I have seen it there ). iirc on the bulkhead the 2 main in/out wires, the one "in" from the fusible link and the "out" wire to the alt you just run another one (two actually)wires (in effect)around the bulkhead to get by the problem of the great amt of current going thru the inadequate bulkhead connectors at those 2 points. If you have 2 unused connectors in the bulkhead just drill them out & run 2 wires thru there for the 2 parallel circuits. If not then drill 2 small holes in the firewall. www.madelectrical.com will have addt'l info for you. If I think of anything else I will holler.


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Re: Wire guage [Re: RapidRobert] #618628
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Thanks, Robert. I did a search on Moparts, and did find some posts on the parallel bulkhead bypass. From what I can see, the M.A.D. way does away with the ammeter, and natcho's way keeps the ammeter in use. So, any idea which way is better? I was planning on using the stock gauges, which are in a rallye dash that came with the car, not installed. I have tested the gauges, and they all seem to function.

Re: Wire guage [Re: 70duster340] #618629
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I'm old school I like the ammeter (& an added voltmeter) so I'm with Nacho's bulkhead bypass along with cleaning/checking EVERY connection (time consuming though) and since I never have a high flow (charging or discharging) I have no issues. At my age I dont even listen to the stock radio anymore . I'd rather listen to the eng (& my thoughts). If I had alot of draw inside the dash like you I'd run the batt positive over to the alt w an 8ga wire w a 12 ga fusible link which would alleviate the bulkhead shortcomings but would disable the ammeter


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Re: Wire guage [Re: RapidRobert] #618630
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Appreciate the help, Robert. I still want to utilize the ammeter. Sorry, don't mean to be a PITA!

I did do an upgrade of sorts. I removed the old style glass fuse block, and installed a Painless fuse block (the kind that uses the blade type of fuses). Would this keep me from doing the upgrade?

Re: Wire guage [Re: 70duster340] #618631
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Quote:

Appreciate the help, Robert. Sorry, don't mean to be a PITA! and installed a Painless fuse block (the kind that uses the blade type of fuses). Would this keep me from doing the upgrade?


No sweat bro as I have more time than money and nobody on here is paying to be here and it is all in the details that keep us on top of the chebby/furd guys who may not be so meticulous. The blade style MAY be more dependable/handle surges better than the old school glass ones(I never paid any attention to that subject as I never had any problems w the glass ones) but the other problem areas definitely cannot be overlooked plus a few reported problems w stock ammeters. The blade ones sure would be simpler to R&R. Keep it simple and (always) take care of the basics first for a solid foundation and the bulkhead is a Mopar problem area unfortunately along with an occaisional ammeter issue and concentrate on fixing the worst/weakest/most difficult problem/area before anything else.


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Re: Wire guage [Re: RapidRobert] #618632
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Thanks, Robert. I don't really like the notion of running the wire through the bulkhead, just for the reason that it would make it a pain to get the bulkhead connector apart if needed. The idea of running the wires through the firewall using a grommet seems much more workable, since unplugging the bulkhead then would not be a problem.

I take it that natcho's way keeps the ammeter working? I was orginally going to use aftermarket gauges, but with a rallye dash, having only the fuel gauge working (well, and the speedometer, too) would seem such a waste. Since the sending units for the water temp and oil pressure are still available, I think I might go that route. I did consider an aftermarket dash (or maybe designing one myself), but that's in the future.

Anyway, can anybody advise if the installation of the Painless fuse block would preclude me from doing this upgrade? Should I consult with natcho first?

Thanks again!!!

Re: Wire guage [Re: 70duster340] #618633
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BTT!

Re: Wire guage [Re: 70duster340] #618634
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Quote:

I take it that natcho's way keeps the ammeter working?


yes just run 2 wires around the bulkhead to bypass it for the main feed in/out, and fix the wire under the dash that is bad/clean all connections & I think you will be troublefree from here on out.


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Re: Wire guage [Re: RapidRobert] #618635
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Thanks, Robert. When I installed this new fuse block, I had some questions for the Painless techs. I was advised that by wiring up this fuse block as I did (according to the instructions), that it by itself bypassed the ammeter. How can I re-attach the ammeter?

Re: Wire guage [Re: 70duster340] #618636
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Quote:

How can I re-attach the ammeter?


at the bulkhead where the main lead comes from the battery to the starter relay then to the fusible link then it goes in/thru both halves of the bulkhead, well on the other side as this main feed wire exits the inside the car half of the bulkhead the ammeter needs to be spliced into that line (in series) so that it registers every bit of current that goes in or out of the battery (ex for the brief starter current of course) as the give and take at the battery is the bottom line. I've never used Painless' stuff, does it appear to be quality merchandise?.


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Re: Wire guage [Re: RapidRobert] #618637
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OK, let me try to explain the situation. When I wired in the new fuse block, according to the instructions, the main feed wire, instead of routing it to the ammeter, it was routed to the fuse block. So, you are saying that I need to splice in the ammeter between the bulkhead and the fuse block? If so, that's not really a problem. However, what about the wiring upgrade where I run the 2 wires through the firewall? Can that still be done, and if so, how?

Thanks for your help, btw!!!

Oh yes, the Painless items are quality material, but there are so many different companies out there now that competition is tight! Even Summit is offering a universal harness now.

Re: Wire guage [Re: 70duster340] #618638
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Quote:

So, you are saying that I need to splice in the ammeter between the bulkhead and the fuse block? However, what about the wiring upgrade where I run the 2 wires through the firewall? Can that still be done, and if so, how? Thanks for your help, btw!!!.


(1) yes (2)Yes, visualize the 1 parallel wire on the fusible link side coming around to the inside of the dash (backside of the bulkhead) where it T's back in, several inches rearward from that T splice is where you would cut the wire to add the ammeter leads (3) you're quite welcome on the help, my fellow (Moparts) members here save my bacon regularly.


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Re: Wire guage [Re: RapidRobert] #618639
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Sorry, but this stuff gives me headaches!!! I'm sitting here with the harness in my lap, and I guess I'm just ignorant, but I'm not getting it at all. I mean, I can understand how to hook up the ammeter, but how does the other wire upgrade work? Do I need it after installing this new fuse block?

Also, can you advise what powers the dash gauges?

Thanks again!

Re: Wire guage [Re: 70duster340] #618640
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the long vertical line is the firewall, (1) is the starter relay, (2) & (3) are the black bulkhead halves, (4) is Nacho's bypass. (5) runs up to the stock ammeter in the dash but to add a different ammeter you would cut the line and run the two cut ends (5) & (6) to your new ammeter (7), Downstream from the ammeter goes to a T just like OE then it splits off and powers the headlight switch (8)(which is hot all the time), another split to the ign sw (9) which is hot all the time and splits again to the fuse block (stock or Painless)(10)(which is hot all the time) which protects everything downstream from it such as brake lights hazard flashers, horn, radio, dome light, accessories


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Re: Wire guage [Re: RapidRobert] #618641
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OK, I think I got it now. However, if your drawing is good, I wired the fuse block incorrectly. I did it according to the directions, though. But, I guess all I need to do is wire the ammeter between the bulkhead and the fuseblock to make the ammeter work?

Also, can you advise which wire powers the gauges? This is for a rallye dash, btw. The fuse block has a terminal for powering the gauges, and I am considering using it. I have looked for a rallye dash wiring diagram, but haven't found one as of yet.

Re: Wire guage [Re: 70duster340] #618642
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We're still missing something easy as the ammeter would have to be before the fuse block and before the T and the T is before the fuse box because circuits such as the headlight switch ect which are hot all the time and are not fuse protected by the fuse box, current would be flowing (when they are on) but not thru the ammeter and I know that is not the case. I'm assuming you've checked out the wiring diagrams a www.mymopar.com. How is Painless wanting the ammeter to be placed in relation to their fuse box?


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Re: Wire guage [Re: RapidRobert] #618643
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According to Painless, the way they advise the fuse block to be wired, it does away with the ammeter. At least, that is what the tech advised. And yes, I have checked with mymopar.com, and no rallye dash wiring diagram. I have located one, but it's for the Barracuda, which has a different rallye gauge setup.

Right now, I cannot locate any wire that powers the gauges. Getting sort of bleary eyed, so I am most likely missing much here.

Re: Wire guage [Re: 70duster340] #618644
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Actually, this fuse block has provisions for the radio, horn, wipers, heater/AC, etc. I've already wired all those in. It also has provisions for turn signals, emergency flashers, an electric fan (if equipped), coil, ignition switch, light switch, stop switch, dome light, etc. All have been already wired in. I guess I'm only concerned about 2 things, how the gauges are powered, and how to wire in the stock ammeter.

Re: Wire guage [Re: 70duster340] #618645
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Quote:

Right now, I cannot locate any wire that powers the gauges.


the gauges would be switched on (hence the term switched 12V) from the ign sw and the ign sw is hot all the time so it would be fed from a T before the fuse block. Sounds like Painless is suggesting that you convert to a voltmeter rather than an OE or aftermarket ammeter. EDIT just saw your post. T into the ign switch (ign1) terminal. This is switched 12V and when you turn the key to "on" the gauges will be powered

Last edited by RapidRobert; 02/23/10 01:14 AM.

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Re: Wire guage [Re: RapidRobert] #618646
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OK, but what wire (color, etc.) that is in the round plug that fits in the rear of the cluster, is the wire that feeds the gauges?

Re: Wire guage [Re: 70duster340] #618647
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My wiring diagram says it's a dark blue wire, but if I follow that wire, it goes to a plug for the rear wiring, which is for the fuel sender unit. I must have something incorrect here.

Re: Wire guage [Re: 70duster340] #618648
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that'd be in mymopars' diagrams unless that wire is different on a Ralley dash. I did my 65 dart from there wire by wire using spools & no mas and 65 darts are as bare bones as you can get


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Re: Wire guage [Re: RapidRobert] #618649
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Yes, the wires are a bit different on a rallye cluster. Now you can see why I am having so much difficulty (well, at least it is part of the reason!).

Re: Wire guage [Re: 70duster340] #618650
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that and w the diagrams being split (& cutoff) I couldn't get it either (it'll take some more time) but I'm thinking black or dark blue w a tracer feeds the printed circuit round connector.
We'll get it tomorrow EDIT I think the black wire is the 12V feed in

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Re: Wire guage [Re: RapidRobert] #618651
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OK, now that I've had some rest, the small black wire feeds the gauges. I have it wired to the ignition switch accessory terminal on the fuse block. Does that seem OK? I would think that the gauges should turn on with the key, correct?

Re: Wire guage [Re: 70duster340] #618652
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Re: Wire guage [Re: 70duster340] #618653
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BTT again!!!

Re: Wire guage [Re: 70duster340] #618654
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Hey Robert, did you come up with anything? I have been sitting here (still on injury leave), and I believe I have figured it out. I also sent an email to the techs at Painless inquiring about wiring in the ammeter, but I was wondering what your thoughts are on this, since I have already wired in the new fuse block. I was also wondering if I should use the terminal for the gauges, or just leave it as is. The fuse block has a provision for gauges, and it's fused.

Let me know!!!

Re: Wire guage [Re: 70duster340] #618655
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I came up w the little black wire is the 12V feed in on the circular dash plug in. I know the ammeter has to come before anything so that it will register any flow (in either direction). Post what they say.


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Re: Wire guage [Re: RapidRobert] #618656
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OK, will do. It looks like I may have to call them, since they were supposed to reply within 1 business day. They haven't replied as of yet. Whatever they say, I will post.

Thanks again for all the help!

Re: Wire guage [Re: 70duster340] #618657
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I'm kind of at a standstill too esp as I dont have enough info on how they are wanting you to do this.


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Re: Wire guage [Re: RapidRobert] #618658
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Well, I'll let ya know as soon as I hear from them.

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Just spoke with a tech at Painless. They advise against using the stock ammeter, as it's 40 year old technology. I understand their reasoning, but I was hoping to have all my gauges functioning. They suggested the use of an aftermarket voltmeter. They also advised that there may be some company or individual that converts the ammeters to voltmeters. I'm sure this is expensive, but I would consider this if it wouldn't break the bank.

Anybody have any tips or suggestions?

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Quote:

Just spoke with a tech at Painless. They advise against using the stock ammeter, as it's 40 year old technology. I understand their reasoning, but I was hoping to have all my gauges functioning. They suggested the use of an aftermarket voltmeter. They also advised that there may be some company or individual that converts the ammeters to voltmeters. I'm sure this is expensive, but I would consider this if it wouldn't break the bank.

Anybody have any tips or suggestions?




Depends on your dash. MA did a recent article on converting a 71-74 B-body rally dash ammeter to voltmeter. I did the same with my dash with a voltmeter from a JY Isuzu Trooper (forgot what year). Looks factory. It's doable on the cheap.

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just found the thread after read your PM... I'm out of time right now, will check later all the thread further.


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Re: Wire guage [Re: MoparMarq] #618662
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I appreciate the tip, MoparMarq. Any idea which month it was in? I don't subscribe to MA, so I don't know if I can even access the article through the internet. My dash is a rallye dash as well, but I believe the mayout of the gauges may be different. But, if I can convert the gauge to a voltmeter, I would like to try that.

If you can possibly advise which month that was, I would appreciate it greatly!

Re: Wire guage [Re: 70duster340] #618663
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BTT

Re: Wire guage [Re: 70duster340] #618664
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Sorry for the delay, out of town.

Issue was December 2009 Mopar Action, page 74.

They used a Sunpro CP7985. But the dash was for a '71-'74 B-body rally dash. I don't know what an A-body looks like. The Sunpro has a needle which points down, so works well in a B-body. (More voltage in a needle that points down when installed moves the needle to the right - counter-clockwise around the needle axis).

Sorry I couldn't be more help.

-Marq

Re: Wire guage [Re: MoparMarq] #618665
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Thank you, sir! Darn, that won't work at all. If you are facing the dash of my rallye dash, the gauge pod is to the right of the steering column. The ammeter is at the top left, with an upward needle.

Well, it was worth a shot. Thanks anyway. Since I don't subscribe to Mopar Action, unless I got my hands on a back issue, I couldn't see that article anyway.

Re: Wire guage [Re: NachoRT74] #618666
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Ok, avoiding the fuses and flasher deal itself what it looks you already did it here are my thoughs

as you can see on my diagram, the discontinued lines represents the Mopar wiring method

but then some doubts comes into my mind...

what source feeds the wire I outlined in pink to ign switch ? RED FROM STARTER OR BLACK FROM ALTERNATOR connected in to the fuse box ?

what about the LIGHT SWICTH SOURCE ? where comes from ? The POWER SYSTEM WIRE OR THE ALTERNATOR WIRE ON FUSE BOX ? instruction sheet on point 12 states:
12. ATTACH THE WIRE TO POWER UP THE HEAD LIGHT SWITCH TO THE LIGHT
SW B+ TERMINAL. (RED W/ BLACK STRIPE WIRE) (12GA)
but doesn't say whats the input source to feed it... power system or alternator wire

BOTH OF THOSE WIRES ARE spliced in to the alt wire on stock system to use ammeter correctly, but dunno what does feed the POWER SYSTEM WIRE into the painless fusebox.

when I know what feeds this wire into the new fuse box will be able to diagram how to wire it.

To be able to use correctly the ammeter all the load needs to be on black wire side of the ammeter

still analizing

( BTW, dunno why 2 acc wires coming from ign switch on diagram )


BASICALLY all my doubts are concerned into:

-on painless fusebox, What is the source what feeds the ign switch and the lights switch... Alt wire or Power system wire ?

-on painless fusebox, What is the source what feeds all the constant powered fuses/devices ? Alt wire or Power system wire ?

without having the fuse box in hands or without known the Chebby system ( what it looks Painless is based ), is hard to tell to me

Can you check for continuity to know what wires/circuits register continuity with ALT wire and wich ones with SYSTEM POWER wire ?


With a Charger born in Chrysler assembly plant in Valencia, Venezuela
Re: Wire guage [Re: NachoRT74] #618667
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I can't express how confused I am right now. I wired the fuse block according to the instructions given. I have tried to find out the answers to your questions, but unfortunately I haven't been able to find out yet. I do have a meter to check these out, but it seems to be malfunctioning right now. It doesn't have sound for testing continuity, so I am confused as to how to use it. I don't know what I did with the instructions, either!

Re: Wire guage [Re: 70duster340] #618668
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OK, on the wires you have highlighted on the diagram. The wire from the alternator I have connected to the alt bat post on the fuse block. The wire from the starter relay I have connected to the battery feed on the fuse block.

Re: Wire guage [Re: 70duster340] #618669
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will work on it... patiente

fisrt... this is the Stock configuration on a Mopar ( tipical ). some models could it be slight diff, but mainly this is the setup. You can see all the consumption is on alt side ( but starter motor itself, not the relay what is activated from ign switch ), to make work the ammeter correctly

Last edited by NachoRT74; 03/02/10 05:52 PM.
Re: Wire guage [Re: NachoRT74] #618670
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Yes sir, I understand that the electrical draw is on the alternator side of the ammeter. I will await your suggestions.

Thanks again!

Re: Wire guage [Re: 70duster340] #618671
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then we have this ( mainly ) from painless instruction sheet.

where, is clear what instruction says about the orange wire for acc on fusebox... but brown ?

then how is routed the red and black wires. Instruction says RED to hook to batt is the main system power... but black coming from alt ? what is for ?

then... lights red/white... I Guess is feeded from batt or alt.

then... we could break the red wire coming from starter solenoid and fit in the middle the ammeter wiring... but what is the black wire function ? are both linked together inside the fusebox ?

I guess the ign switch red wire is linked to... black or red ( batt or alt )

definitelly break the red line coming from bat and fit in the middle the ammeter will work to make work the ammeter correctly. But would wish to know about the rest.

Maybe I'm oversizing the "problem" BUT when I'm giving advices I like to get in to details and made everything correctly matched.

5841548-doubtsabout.jpg (56 downloads)

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Re: Wire guage [Re: NachoRT74] #618672
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Just right this ( attachment ) but...

will check further the rest of details about the fuses and sources asigment you could make


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Re: Wire guage [Re: NachoRT74] #618673
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The only brown wire I see is that one that powers up the hazard (emergency) lights. Is that the one you are speaking about?

Re: Wire guage [Re: 70duster340] #618674
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I also have a few more questions (as if you didn't have enough to think about, lol). Will the wires passing through the bulkhead be OK as long as I replace the wires and install new terminals with dielectric grease, or should I just run the wires straight through the firewall? Also, should I hook up the gauges to the terminal on the fuseblock that is designated for the gauges? It's a fused terminal.

Thanks so much, Nacho!!!

Re: Wire guage [Re: 70duster340] #618675
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Quote:

The only brown wire I see is that one that powers up the hazard (emergency) lights. Is that the one you are speaking about?




well, diagram shows a brown wire arriving to ign switch with number 932 as ACCY B+ thats my doubt about

Orange wire as instruction sheet labeled like ACC must be hooked to black wire coming from ign switch ( stock fuse block already had that wire arriving to, so thats the wire to splice ), BUT THE BROWN


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Re: Wire guage [Re: 70duster340] #618676
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Quote:

I also have a few more questions (as if you didn't have enough to think about, lol). Will the wires passing through the bulkhead be OK as long as I replace the wires and install new terminals with dielectric grease, or should I just run the wires straight through the firewall? Also, should I hook up the gauges to the terminal on the fuseblock that is designated for the gauges? It's a fused terminal.

Thanks so much, Nacho!!!




mmmm, I will run through firewall... no need to get rid off the original bulkhead ones. You can clean and replace terminals and will be definitelly fine, but also would run directy sources at a side of bulkhead.

Keeping the stock wires at bulkhead( once serviced ) will help on use a smaller gauge wire on parallel line. So won't need to use a 6 GAUGE WIRE LOL... just 10 or 12 will be nice to work together with the already existing 12 gauge one. If 10 better, and honestly enough. One 10 and the stock 12 will work more less like you have an 8 gauge wire.

You can in fact use terminals on parallel wires with 10 gauge wire to be able to service the wires or harness if needed for some reason. Automotive terminals are unexistant to 8 or 6 gauge wires( I haven't found at least ).

remember the first step is the parallel wires, but that will be just 40% of the job. The rest 60% is a good alt choice. No need for 100 amps alt really. Stock lates 78 amps is really enough, specially when using smaller pulley.

the reason to use a 100 amps or 120 amps alt or whatever more than that is just because you will get the best charge at iddle posible, but I bet won't use EVER the full alt capacity on your car. really on a basically stock car 78-80 amps alt is SIMPLY ENOUGH. EVEN if you get an ocasional discharge reading, nothing wrong with that.You'll find mostly of cars have a power decay with everything electrical working, just that they don't have an ammeter to take note about LOL and in mostly of these cases NOT EVEN A VOLTIMETER, just the idiot light what just say to you the alt is working because is not getting the circuit closed for a while stator is captioning magnetic field, but is not telling you is enough for your car or if batt is being discharged.



NOW THE QUESTION...

will the parallel wire running from alt post splice into the new fusebox black wire or directly to ammeter ?

THATS WHY I would need to know why this wire runs to painless fusebox.

Maybe just to get this line fuse protected, what woudl mean doesn't arrive to somekind of buss bar ?

if so, you can duplicate the black wire running to fuse box, but splicing directly to ammeter with an in line fuse, like the one it could be at fuse box ( if thats the reason of course )

this last is very important BECAUSE all the load will run directly to the fusebox, and will get a new weak point now there.

how many buss bars do you have on back of new fuse box ? which wires arrives ? If my logic dictates right, you should have just 2 buss bars, one getting orange wire from ign switch and the other one getting red from batt ?

then some individual fuses not linked to any buss bar, like the ign coil one, or maybe in fact the cluster lighting ? the alt exciter ( if you were using ), and stuff not labeled like needing acc or batt sources

lot of what I said is thinking outloud


With a Charger born in Chrysler assembly plant in Valencia, Venezuela
Re: Wire guage [Re: NachoRT74] #618677
03/03/10 12:29 AM
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One thing more...

with all this job, it looks you would ( if you still didn't do it ) get rid of the stock main splice, because it looks the new fuse box already works like a main splice, with the wires to feed lights, ign switch, alt, batt arriving to... and everything "fused"



With a Charger born in Chrysler assembly plant in Valencia, Venezuela
Re: Wire guage [Re: 70duster340] #618678
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Quote:

Also, should I hook up the gauges to the terminal on the fuseblock that is designated for the gauges? It's a fused terminal.





Mopars used also very often a fuse to protect the gauges. Is a fuse what feeds the voltage limiter. Talking about 3rd gen chargers at least, we got the standart cluster gauges feeded from a fuse not linked on a buss bar, using a separated fuse what gets the source from the blue ( RUN position ) wire at ign switch, HOWEVER SAME YEARS, SAME CARS, but with rallye cluster got the gauges ( limiter ) source directly from ACC side of fuse box ( buss bar ), sharing some fuse with some other acc.

would need to check if some Mopar didn't use any fuse to gauges

you can run it or not as you wish. Definitelly won't hurt use the fuse to feed the limiter to gauges.

becarefull. DON'T RUN THE WIRE TO GAUGES DIRECTLY FROM FUSE BOX... needs to get first the limiter, then the gauges


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Re: Wire guage [Re: NachoRT74] #618679
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Now I have some new questions. If you have a wiring diagram handy for a 1971 Valiant, the question is, which wire powers the headlight switch? I have a pink and a black with a white tracer that appear to both carry current to the switch. Also, which wire should I use to attach to the ignition coil terminal on the fuse block? Should it be the large brown wire, or the dark blue wire? I believe the brown wire is the bypass for the ballast resistor to the coil to start up the engine.

Sorrt for all the questions, but my wiring of the fuseblock seems to have been a bit incorrect, and from hearing from you, it has been brough to my attention. I need to fix this before I install the wiring harness and fuse block, so all the help you can offer is greatly appreciated!!!

Re: Wire guage [Re: 70duster340] #618680
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I don't really need the 71 diagram since all colors all years are the same in all bodies specially for those years.

yes, headlight switch gets two sources. One is unfused directly from alt splice ( as I "diagramed" )being black ( dunno remember if traced, but thick ) and one is fused coming from fuse batt side. Wire is pink.

The direct unfused black source feeds ONLY headlights beams. The pink wire feeds parking/sidemarkers/dimmer(cluster) and comes froma fuse on stock wiring. The original fuse also did feed the glovebox light and some acc constant sources like courtesy lights, map lights

Up to mids 70s Yes brown wire from ign switch bypasses the ballast on Start moment to max power on startup moment. Dark blue is what feeds the coil THROUGHT THE BALLAST on RUN moment, alt field, regulator AND CHOKE.

On lates 70s the ballast bypass was moved to starter relay and is closer to Painless wiring diagram

will draw some other diagrams about specifically those circuits paying attention on the 71 valiant diagram


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Re: Wire guage [Re: NachoRT74] #618681
03/03/10 01:09 PM
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ok... firts. as far I can tell and already stated, it looks the splice on alt wire will dissapear with the fusebox of course


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Re: Wire guage [Re: NachoRT74] #618682
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then as far I can tell by the instructions, this will be the new setup at least for main starting and charging circuits

NOTE... I DON'T KNOW IF ALT WIRE AND IGN SWITCH WIRE ARE FUSED OR NOT, being simple spliced in to batt buss bar. I simply ilustrated like they are fused, but if they are the shgould be BIG CAPACITY FUSES... 40, 50 or 60 amps fuses.

remember this is just what I supose it is without have in hands the fusebox

I'm based on how it works any Mopar Body ( except those with starter solenoid with coil ballast bypass provision, on lates 70 )


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Re: Wire guage [Re: NachoRT74] #618683
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The ignition switch and the alternator wires are not fused, they simply attach to the buss bar.

There is a terminal for the ignition switch coil on the fuse box, which is protected by a 20 amp fuse. Should I attach the brown wire going from the ignition switch out to the coil, or should I just leave it as is?

To answer a prior question, yes, the splice from the alternator wire is removed.

Re: Wire guage [Re: 70duster340] #618684
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Maybe it would be best for everybody involved if I just purchased the wiring harness that Painless offers? Summit Racing carries them in stock, and they are very close by.

Re: Wire guage [Re: 70duster340] #618685
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next step... lighting circuit

As I can see, the painless fusebox only provides one fuse and circuit for all the lighting system, for a while Mopar uses 2 inputs and 3 outputs being the two inputs:

-Black wire ( traced white ? ), unfused, coming from alt wire ( as several diagrams did show ). Even is "unfused", remember the system is protected by the fuse link
-Pink wire, fused coming from batt/alt source too

the three outputs:
-green wire... headlights. Is ONLY FEEDED BY THE BLACK ( traced white ? ) WIRE
-Black wire ( normally traced yellow )... parking lights and sidemarkers. Is feeded ONLY by the pink fused input
-Orange wire... Dimmered source to cluster and stuff. Is feeded by the same PINK wire, and does have an EXTRA fuse on the line before get the bulbs

Now, to make it work in a Mopar way, this is my suggestion:

Splice the black ( traced white ? ) wire into the same MAIN SYSTEM POWER wire. You can also splice it in to the ammeter stud, black side.

Splice the pink wire ( was arriving to your original fusebox ) into the red traced white new fusebox wire

The tan wire to the dimmer function what becomes into the orange wires after the original fusebox can it be spliced together. System is already protected by the fuse existing to the red traced wire ( originally pink ), but you can also fit a separated fuse cap and splice in between the tan and orange wires. Tan and Orange wires were both arriving to the original fusebox to a separate fuse from both buss bars ( acc and batt )


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Re: Wire guage [Re: NachoRT74] #618686
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Thank you very much, Nacho!!! You have worked very long and hard on my problem, and I will do as you described. Right now I must go out for a while, but when I get back I will again study your diagram and will wire it as you have drawn. Again, I do very much appreciate all your time and help!

Re: Wire guage [Re: 70duster340] #618687
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Quote:

The ignition switch and the alternator wires are not fused, they simply attach to the buss bar




nice so from now ( at the time I read your reply ) will edit the diagrams

Quote:


There is a terminal for the ignition switch coil on the fuse box, which is protected by a 20 amp fuse. Should I attach the brown wire going from the ignition switch out to the coil, or should I just leave it as is?




well you know that we have several options really that I can edit. Since the fusebox provides a souce for the alternator exciter and/or regulator ( what we don't have on mopars fused really but spliced together at same circuit ) MAYBEEEEEE we could use the COIL wire for the COIL ballast bypass circuit, and then the regulator source for the complete RUN circuit


CHECKING

no one of the diagrams I posted is definitelly yet


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Re: Wire guage [Re: NachoRT74] #618688
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Hey, if you can draw those up I will use them as well!!!

Re: Wire guage [Re: 70duster340] #618689
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please can you check what input source feeds the white wire to the "regulator" as instruction sheet states on point 8

ATTACH THE WIRE GOING TO THE IGNITION SWITCHED TERMINAL OF THE ALTERNATOR REGULATOR (INTERNAL OR EXTERNAL) TO THE ALT IGN B+ TERMINAL. (WHITE WIRE) THIS WIRE TURNS ON THE REGULATOR WHEN THE IGNITION SWITCH IS TURNED ON. (14GA)

ACC buss bar ? Coil wire ? some Ign swicth wire ?

Then also on Diagram is shown a red wire 18 gauge to feed the choke... same question... what source feeds that wire ? ACC buss bar ? some IGN switch wire ?

Remember the Painless diagram shows an extra ACCY WIRE brown 12 gauge

5843119-LINKEDornot.jpg (58 downloads)

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Re: Wire guage [Re: NachoRT74] #618690
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From what I can see, the alt. ign. B+ is fed from the ign. sw. accy. wire (orange 12 gauge wire, #9 on instructions). About the red choke wire and the brown accy. wire, there isn't either of those on this fuse block anywhere that I can find.

Re: Wire guage [Re: 70duster340] #618691
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Ok this is what I see.

-first the initial idea what I like more, for the starting-charging circuit:



-then both circuits fused using the ALTERNATOR wire ( white wire ):



what I don't like from the second diagram double fused option:
-Engine will remain feeded when you set the ign switch power to ACC. why would you need to keep engine parts ( such as alt, reg, field, choke, ECU if existant ) powered IF YOU JUST WANT TO LISTEN THE RADIO ( for example )

-Everything will be feeded by just one point inside the ign switch, and one wire, black coming from ign switch. Then you can splice both blue and black wires to share the load, but honestly doesn't need for that

-Why would you need to fuse the coil power at starting moment if it just work AT STARTING MOMENT ? rest of the time will just work the regular RUN circuit

-In fact the original painless diagram shows this wire/fuse to run directly to ballast, so then to coil, making the ballast bypass from starter relay ( optional ). This setup was built on lates 70s Mopars. For a while bypass from the starter relay didn't exist, the ign switch was who made it.

There are more options to use this white wire toward to engine parts, but will need to get inside the engine harness, modify it, use an extra cavity of bulkhead. Once again no need for that


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Re: Wire guage [Re: NachoRT74] #618692
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My lights circuit suggestion remains the same ( more detailed diagram )

As stated before you can run and splice the black traced wire to feed headlights into the SYSTEM POWER WIRE or fit an eyelet terminal on it and attach it to the Ammeter stud. You choose.

The original pink wire to lights switch is already around original fusebox of course. However check wich one, because there are couple more of pink wires around.



Also, you can splice the orange cluster ( dimmed source ) wires with the tan wire coming from dimmer lights switch. Both wires are really close to splice them together since the original fusebox already had those wires linked with an extra fuse, separated from both existant buss bars. You can also install a fuse holder in between too keep the original setup, just that the fuse will be floating on harness

a fuse holder like this:




once again is your choice

EXTRA NOTE ( not at diagram ):

the cigar lighter is originally spliced at the same point/fuse where the pink wire takes the power and feeds input to parking lights. Is not ilustrated, but the red wire for the cigar lighter can still keep spliced to the same wire/fuse than the pink wire to parking lights input ( so the same red traced black wire at new fusebox )

Last edited by NachoRT74; 03/03/10 09:06 PM.

With a Charger born in Chrysler assembly plant in Valencia, Venezuela
Re: Wire guage [Re: NachoRT74] #618693
03/03/10 07:10 PM
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Next... horn and wiper... pretty much straight up with some notes.

Locate the horn relay and will find the black and green/red wires. Black is ground to activate the relay. Green/red is the definitive positive output source to sound the horn. These are the two wires what will splice into the new fusebox ( points 2 and 19 at instruction sheet ). I guess the relay takes the power from the Batt buss and has a fuse too but I didn't draw the fuse to relay on diagram.

ONE NOTE ABOUT THE HORN RELAY...

The original relay is also a keys in buzzer warning signal. This relay drives two black wires, both coming from steering column. The black horn wire is grouped together with the horn functions and comes from turning switch harness plug. The buzzer black wire is a separated prong on relay and comes from ign switch harness plug ( becomes red into the column )

Next question. Do you want to keep working the ign key in buzzer function ? if so, then you will need to keep the original horn relay on harness to make it work still being feeded by the violet wire. Diagram shows this wire being feeded FROM THE ORIGINAL MAIN SPLICE AT ALT WIRE. Is this violet wire still being energized from there or somewhere ?


Then to note is you'll have two horn relays now, one just for the horn ( new ) and the original one just for the buzzer ( old ) are you agree keeping both relays ?

You can also forgett about the new relay at Fusebox and keep the original one. Once again your choice

----------------

Wiper pink wire shows on original diagram SPLICED SOMEWHERE INTO THE ACC WIRE COMING FROM IGN SWITCH. Locate this wire and now will splice into a fuse now at the new fusebox as isntruction sheet says, blue wire ( point 3 )

5843460-hornandwiper.jpg (52 downloads)

With a Charger born in Chrysler assembly plant in Valencia, Venezuela
Re: Wire guage [Re: NachoRT74] #618694
03/03/10 07:53 PM
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instrument cluster feed.

As the 71 valiant diagram shows from mymopar website, the cluster feed wasn't fuse protected either ( I stated earlier some models weren't fused there ) and were spliced directly from the RUN circuit at ign switch.

making this change the cluster gauges ( voltage limiter ) and warning lights will be fused protected.

NOTE: Making this change you won't have any gauge reading or idiot light ( oil, brake ) working for a while you are cranking. The original setup did keep work the dash instruments working when cranking since the ballast resistor was feeding back the cluster/blue wire from the Coil ( ballast bypass ) wire. Dimmered power since it was throught the ballast resistor but still working. Take that in mind.

wire is dark blue traced. There is another dark blue wire at a side arriving to cluster but is the gas sender one.


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Re: Wire guage [Re: NachoRT74] #618695
03/03/10 08:50 PM
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now, some stuff will need to work on at the same time. On Mostly of Mopars, and more specifically on your Valiant, all the dome, stop and hazzard circuits are protected by just ONE fuse. Why is that ? because is not normal you'll have everything working at the same time. In fact since 1970 is totally imposible to make work the brakes and the hazzards at the same time by the turning switch configuration.

The new painless fusebox provides you the chance to fuse them independently (sp?), but will need to pay attention on what are you doing.

first the discontinued line box shows how's wired the original setup, everything linked to one fuse coming from the batt buss.

The discontinued lines will show what lines WILL BE GONE by the end of the job, including the flasher, since the painless box gives you a flasher on circuit

will need to make a good track on these wires to make the correct splices.

as usual on all my diagrams, color are correctly matched with both setups.

Once again, I assume the hazzard flasher is fuse protected from batt buss bar, just that I didn't draw the fuse for it on diagram


With a Charger born in Chrysler assembly plant in Valencia, Venezuela
Re: Wire guage [Re: NachoRT74] #618696
03/03/10 09:08 PM
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I have to go out... will be back soon


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Re: Wire guage [Re: NachoRT74] #618697
03/03/10 09:30 PM
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You have really done a lot of work on my part, and I can't tell you how much I appreciate it!!! I will get on this new wiring in the morning.

Re: Wire guage [Re: 70duster340] #618698
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LAST SECTION, what still rst of the acc section:

-turning signal
-Radio
-Heater/AC

Heater is pretty much straight up and even color matches. That wiring was already arriving to fuse box. Is a cut and splice on new fusebox job

Radio. Allmost the same. Instruction sheet doesn't say the wire color for this RADIO B+ so I draw same original color being spliced. Same as above you'll find is a cut from original fuse and splice on the new one. Will need to consider this circuit also feeds the BACK UP LAMP at bulkhead, being spliced from Radio Plug itself, and will remain in that way

Turning flasher doesn't have its own fuse, Shares same fuse than Radio/Back up lamp, so is spliced on same circuit, but from bulkhead ( W cavity ). This splice can it be removed together with flasher itself, and now the red wire going to turning switch from the turning flasher will be spliced into the purple wire at new fusebox. As stated on instruction wheet this wire already have the flasher on circuit ( I guess also fused ).

I think this covers all the circuits. If some more doubt, will be happy to clear up!


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Re: Wire guage [Re: NachoRT74] #618699
03/04/10 01:11 AM
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you should get not using from painless fusebox the ELECT FAN wire and the ALTERNATOR/REGULATOR wire since those functions are unexistant on the stock setup. You can use them on any extra function you wish to give power from ACC section.

REMEMBER I DIDN'T DRAW THE STOCK CIGAR LIGHTER source. It can be spliced at ant batt fuse you want, If you want to keep the stock setup, it should be spliced together with the pink wire of the lights switch ( arriving to red traced black at new fusebox )

Parallel wires from alt and batt simply will arrive directly to ammeter studs, Nothing to do with the new fusebox


With a Charger born in Chrysler assembly plant in Valencia, Venezuela
Re: Wire guage [Re: NachoRT74] #618700
03/04/10 12:46 PM
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Again, thanks for all the hard work you have put into this for me. I can't tell you how much help you have been.

I thought about using the coil terminal (#4 on the instructions) for attaching the tan dimmer wire to, and then attaching the 2 orange wires for the gauge lights to the ign sw coil terminal (#18 on instructions). This is only a fused curcuit. If this seems ok with you, what amp fuse should I use? The fuse that is in there is a 20 amp fuse. Should I use maybe a 3 amp fuse?

Re: Wire guage [Re: 70duster340] #618701
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Do you mean keeping the ballast wires and circuits ( blue and brown, RUN and START ) like stock without fuse ?

Yes you can do it, is not a bad idea... never though on that because I was making the setup with the Painless fusebox option to "coil"

how many amps ? 5 max. Original fuse for dimmer source is 5 as far I remember on my Charger. It should be casted on your original fusebox and stated on car's owners manual. Maybe A bodies are smaller due they use to use less bulbs to dash.

Remember if you still wire the dash instrument like the point #11, gauges ( and warning lights ) will still turned off when cranking. It is originally wired in to the RUN ( blue ) circuit, and now is being souced by ACC by painless, what doens't get the feedback power spliced from cranking circuit at ballast


With a Charger born in Chrysler assembly plant in Valencia, Venezuela
Re: Wire guage [Re: NachoRT74] #618702
03/04/10 04:53 PM
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Well, do you think it is best that I use the ballast curcuit on the Painless fuse block, or keep them as stock? I was just looking for a good way to keep all the fuses in the box.

Re: Wire guage [Re: 70duster340] #618703
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Initially I like your idea... and maybe in fact myself will make it on that way.

however ONCE I got a short from blue line ( I didn't know about my car electric on those days yet ), when the alt brush isolator got broken and all the blue line began to heat up to ign switch, melting slightly a couple of plugs, so thinking on that, is not a bad idea get it fuse protected like painless sugestion.

The fuse for the dimmer line.... mmmm I don't think is EXCESIVELLY necesary and splice tan and orange together will work. Is already protected by the pink input line. Just that if some short at dimmer circuit, will blow at the same time with parking lights. A smaller fuse on dimmer circuit will blow the dimmer fuse first keeping safe the parking circuit.

Now... what circuit is more important to keep it fused ? which one is easier to get a short ?... make your choice

I think on this, is about a personal preference for each one


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Re: Wire guage [Re: NachoRT74] #618704
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I GOT AN IDEA!!!

Do you find some way to separate the ELC FAN or the ALT/REG fuses from the Acc buss bars ? cut/separate the bar from fuses at those points ? AND still able to attach the tan wire on the cut/separated point from the Acc bar ?

you could use one of those fuses to feed some separated option from buss bars.

DASH INSTRUMENT source... you can splice the blue wire to cluster master plug into the pink wire going to ballast to keep it working when cranking as originally did

you can try also separate this DASH INSTRUMENT fuse from the acc buss bar and feed it from the blue line before the fuse box to make it work also when cranking, like originally is.

How are the fuses attached to buss bars ? can you give me a close up pic of that ? I can't detail that on pics you sent me


With a Charger born in Chrysler assembly plant in Valencia, Venezuela
Re: Wire guage [Re: NachoRT74] #618705
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I got another problem I need your help with. I was going to replace the 12 gauge red wire to the fuse block from the bulkhead connector with a 10 gauge wire. I can't find any electrical connectors that will work with the 10 gauge wire to use with the bulkhead. Can I just run a wire straight from the starter relay (with an attached fusible link) to the ammeter, then to the fuseblock, bypassing the bulkhead connector? Maybe through the firewall? If so, should I install any connectors in that line? What size fusible link should I use? I was also going to replace the black wire from the alternator to the fuseblock, but that will have the same issue as the red wire (no bulkhead elctrical connectors large enough). Can you help here?

Thanks!!!

Re: Wire guage [Re: 70duster340] #618706
03/05/10 01:13 AM
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first... which red wire ? the main system power from painless ? that wire doesn't run to the bulkhead, will run to the ammeter ( black side ) to keep it working.

after clearing that...


MMMMMM Reeally really, no need for the stock 12 gauge replacement if you already will run the parallel wires. IMHO keep that one on the way it is, and run the parallel ones on 10 gauge.


If you want to be able to keep "serviceable" all the circuit including the new ones through the firewall, the new parallel wires can be plugged with the bullet kind ones on engine bay side. They are available for 10 gauge, the ones with yellow covers ( I think those are what supports 10 gauge ). Since I don't like the colored look of those plastic covers I normally cover them up with black ( or wire matched color )shrinking tube

NOTE... even terminals can it be simply crimped, I normally also SOLD THEM. That gives you better power transference and harder to loose from terminal.

In fact as far is posible, SOLD EVERY SPLICE... don't simply twist them together

you can tin the ends before twist them but you can tin them after being twisted too with the propper heat range solder, specially big gauge ones. Small gauge wires can be tined either way after or before.














wrong way:




maybe you already did know this, but never is wrong to give more info just in case

Re: Wire guage [Re: NachoRT74] #618707
03/05/10 01:34 AM
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Yes, that was the red wire I was speaking of. So, if I run the parellel wires, do they get attached to the ammeter? If so, how? And, which gauge of fusible link do I need to connect to the starter relay for the parellel wires?

Also, as it is currently set up, the red wire does run from the bulkhead to the fuse block. I don't have the dash installed yet, so it's not attached to the ammeter. Right now the red wire comes from the bulkhead connector and feeds the fuse block.

Last edited by 70duster340; 03/05/10 01:40 AM.
Re: Wire guage [Re: 70duster340] #618708
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Re: Wire guage [Re: 70duster340] #618709
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BTT again, Nacho!!!

Re: Wire guage [Re: 70duster340] #618710
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Ok here is the diagram with the parallel wires on it and the main circuits ( I simply edited the one I already had made )

as you can see I'm posting wich wires will still run throught the bulkhead plug. Honestly no need to eliminate them, but some service on them will be nice ( clean, new terminals if wished, dielectric grease )

the parallel wires will still run up to ammeter studs... why? because when you run the parallel wires, the black wire from ammeter to fuse box won't necesarilly feeds the power from batt, through ammeter, now will feed the power from alternator too ( as far alternator is enough of course ) because so that will DOUBLE the direct and original wire coming from alt through bulkhead.

So we can say ORIGINAL we had one wire ( labeled A ) what it was the only one feeding the main splice originally, now directly the fuse box bar.

The added B wire through the firewall, attached to ammeter, will make we are getting two wires now LABELED AS C to feed the fusebox buss bar from alt . Once again as far alt is enough. If alt is not enough, then batt will feed through ammeter. Ammeter will tell you when that happens, thats its function.

8 or 10 gauge... 10 is really enough if you ask me and will find terminals for it at hardware stores. I fit 8 gauge just because it was one one I had handly from a Coronet 77, but that made me imposible to find a terminal to fit on engine bay side to be able to service that because there is not 8 gauge terminals.

Batt side parallel wire I used a 10 gauge and fit a terminal to attach to a new fuse link. ( 14 or 16 gauge ). The original fuse link it is 16 gauge. Mopar wirings showing parallel wires shows 14 gauge for that parallel fuse link, but 16 will work too without problems. At the end yoiu are also doubling the fuse link, and use a 14 gauge will take too much time to blow in a short problem.

why use a 10 gauge wires if still stock wires betwen ammeter and fuse box and alt and fuse box are 12 ? because teh extra gauge step is for BATT CHARGING moment, safer, not really because the regular car equippment requires MOOORE thicker wires. You are not driving a Motorhome, is a regular passenger car.

Will you use an UZI to hunt rabbits ? everything on the right and enough measure. No need to oversize stuff


With a Charger born in Chrysler assembly plant in Valencia, Venezuela
Re: Wire guage [Re: NachoRT74] #618711
03/07/10 12:41 AM
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OK, now bear with me here. The red 12 gauge wire from the starter relay (red from the bulkhead) is no longer attached to the Painless fuse block, it's now routed to the ammeter stud, along with the parallel wire from the starter relay? If you remember the instructions and the diagram of the Painless fuse block. The 12 gauge wire from the batt feed that attaches to the batt feed terminal (#17 on the instructions) now is routed to the ammeter? I just want to be sure I understand all this before I begin changing wires from my current setup. If this is correct, what wire does attach to that terminal?

Sorry, don't mean to be a big pain, and I really do appreciate the help. I just want to be sure I understand.

Re: Wire guage [Re: 70duster340] #618712
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remember the fuse box is on painless box becoming on the original MAIN SPLICE.

The MAIN SPLICE needs to keep on alt side of ammeter to keep the right reading

the instruction sheet on painless box says attachs the batt wire on the red 12 gauge fusebox wire just because they are not thinking on an ammeter on the line

So keeping the original wiring, the batt wire will still keep running directly to ammeter.

THEN FROM AMMETER ( black wire ) to the painless fuse box 12 red wire. ( main power source )

The ammeter is simply an IN LINE DEVICE coming from batt, what reads the batt power status.

Imagine the ammeter doesn exist... well you are making the same than instruction sheet says, you are feeding the fuse box from batt... but on this case with an ammeter in the line ( serial conection ).

remember BE SURE hook the right wires at ammeter. The BATT ones at the stud labelled RED on back of cluster, and the black wire at the normally unlabeled stud.

If you hook reversed, won't happen anything more than simply a reversed reading on ammeter

extra note:

remember on stock setup the black traced white wire to headlights switch wire is spliced at the main splice ( alt side ). You can splice it at the main system source ( painless red 12 gauge wire ) or directly to the black stud at ammeter. Will be easier to you hook it with eyelet terminal directly to the ammeter black side stud and will give you a less stressed wire on that section ( section between ammeter and painless fuse box )

If you hook the headlighst wire to the ammeter studs will have 2 wires on red ( original and parallel ) and will have 3 to the black side ( original now running to painless box, parallel and headlights wires )

BE SURE CLEAN the terminals arriving to ammeter AND TIGHT the ammeter nuts to be sure about a good power transfer. Lot of problems use to begin there.

Dunno what you decided to do with the horn relays, using the original or the one with painless box... and still keep the ign key in buzzer. If you decided to keep the original full relay function or if just use the buzzer function of it, the Violet wire of the original relay it must be constantly feeded. As the valiant diagram shows, normally is spliced at the MAIN original splice, so you could run that wire also to ammeter black stud, to the MAIN SYSTEM red wire at painles wire splice or also to any BATT source at fuse box after the fuses.

dunno what else to refresh right now

Dunno what you decided to do with the DASH INSTRUMENT source, from acc side of box


With a Charger born in Chrysler assembly plant in Valencia, Venezuela
Re: Wire guage [Re: NachoRT74] #618713
03/07/10 09:20 AM
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Right now I have the headlight wire attached to the terminal for power to the headlight switch (#12 on instructions). As for the instrument feed, I haven't changed that yet, but was going to. That terminal is fed by a 10 amp fuse. Should I change that, or leave it as is?

The horn relay, I used the Painless one, but would very much like to keep the buzzer. So, I need to keep the violet wire hot? Also, what about the black wire from the instrument panel? From the 1970 Plymouth Valiant wiring diagram, this wire feeds the electricity to the printed circuit connector, which (I believe) feeds the voltage regulator for the instruments. On the rallye cluster, the voltage regulator is built into the fuel gauge. Does this wire need to be attached to the fuse block at the dash B+ terminal (#11 on the instructions)?

I know, lots of work on your part. But, I don't think I could make this work without your assistance, so I hope you don't mind all these questions!!!

Re: Wire guage [Re: 70duster340] #618714
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no I don't mind all the questions. thats why we are around and boards intention.

headlight wires... Remember Mopars have two diff sources for headlight switch ( pink and black traced white ). Painless is Chebby based so thats teh reason they give just one source for it. I guess if you hook the black traced white wire in to the point 12 at instructions, you spliced the pink wire there too, right ?

If you ask me I would preffer to keep the original setup with two diff input sources. Just my personal preference. If your fuse blows out because some fail on parking lights feeded by the pink wire, will be out of headlights too because the black traced white is spliced there too.

Dash instrument fuse... 10 amps, is not bad but maybe I will feed with 8 amps.

Black wire for instrument panel ? Valiant diagram shows a blue one not a black one. Dunno if standart or rallye makes diff on wire color alos for A bodies. It does on B bodies, but dunno on A bodies. Is a fact the DASH WIRE on painless fusebox must arrive to the voltage limiter because voltage limiter is the source for the gauges. But Painless DASH WIRE must feed also the idiot lights ( normally blue wire on stock ), but not through the voltage limiter. Idiot lights must be directly feeded from the positive source.

On B bodies with rallye cluster, gauges are feeded with a black wire from ACC directly to the voltage limiter for a while Brake light is a blue wire directly from RUN. On Standart Cluster all dash ( gauges AND idiot lights ) is feeded by the blue wire from RUN circuit with voltage limiter instered in to the blue wire circuit at printed board. Maybe A bodies are the same ? I guess because Mymopar website doesn't show any rallye diagram

Buzzer. yes, will need to keep the violet wire hot.


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Re: Wire guage [Re: NachoRT74] #618715
03/07/10 06:52 PM
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About the light switch, yes I did splice both the pick and the black w/white tracer together and attached them at the light switch terminal. I didn't know where else to draw any electricity from for both wires individually.

On my rallye dash, the blue wire feeds the brake light, and the black wire feeds power to the voltage limiter. The gauge layout may be different from a B-body to an A-body, I don't know for sure. I can say that an early Barracuda rallye dash layout is different from mine. I also could not locate a rallye dash wiring diagram, and have posted on here as well as mymopars, but with no luck so far. I do have a copy of the printed circuit boards for the Duster/Valiant (and others too), which has helped a lot.

Do you need me to give you a rundown of the terminals and what I have connected to each one, maybe for one last check before we finally finish this?

Re: Wire guage [Re: 70duster340] #618716
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yeah well your rallye wiring is the same than my rallye wiring... yes the black wire to voltage limiter will be spliced in to the DASH INST wire of painless box.

Blue wire for brake light. To make it CORRECTLY into a Mopar way, must be spliced into the blue RUN circuit. Now, mostly sure you never touched that though. That will set correctly that when you crank the engine, the brake light will remaing lighted up ( but dimmed )

On a standart cluster as stated, is being set diff just by one wire to feed everything ( blue ) and to set correctly the painless box in a Mopar would need to modify some stuff more. I based my suggestion about the dash feed mods ( cut the buss bar or whatever related ) on the Standart cluster diagram. No need it on this case now.

to draw both lights wires, splice the black traced into the ammeter black wire stud OR the MAIN SYSTEM SOURCE. as you wish. I think easier directly to amm stud. Keep the pink into the fuse box provision. Well thats my suggestion to make it on the Mopar way. Both spliced into the Fusebox provision will work too though but when the fuse blows, you will be OUT OF LIGHTS EVERYWHERE. It happened to mee that I blowed that fuse simply replacing the glove box bulb ( didn't unplugged batt ) because on my car, this bulb comes from same source. Dunno remmeber on your car. Will have to check. I could get without headlights just for that if they were on same source.

a rundown will be nice.


With a Charger born in Chrysler assembly plant in Valencia, Venezuela
Re: Wire guage [Re: NachoRT74] #618717
03/07/10 10:24 PM
03/07/10 10:24 PM
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70duster340 Offline OP
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OK, here it is:

Battery feed side, from left to right:
Horn terminal - green w/red tracer
Ign sw coil - dark blue w/white tracer from ballast
Batt feed - empty
Ign sw B+ - red wire from ignition switch
Stop sw B+ - pink wire to brake switch
Alt batt post - black wire from alternator
Haz sw B+ - pink wire to directional signal plug
Light sw B+ - black w/white tracer and pink, both to headlight switch plug
Dash B+ - black wire to voltage limiter in cluster plug
Radio B+ - to radio plug

Acc side, from left to right:
Horn sw - black w/white tracer to directional switch plug
Wiper B+ - to wiper plug
Coil/Dist - dark blue w/white tracer out to ballast
Dome light B+ - to plug for rear harness
El fan B+ - empty
AC/Heat - black w/white tracer out to fan controls
Alt ign B+ - empty
Ign sw accy - black from ignition switch plug
Turn sw B+ - red w/white tracer o directional switch plug

I'm sure I have some of these incorrect, so please advise your opinion so I can make the proper changes. I think that I may have the ballast wires incorrect, and I will also change the power to the light switch as you had previously suggested.

Thanks!!!

Re: Wire guage [Re: 70duster340] #618718
03/08/10 10:14 AM
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NachoRT74 Offline
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Caps, my notes:

Quote:


Battery feed side, from left to right:

Horn terminal - green w/red tracer---- YES, RUNNING TO BULKHEAD

Ign sw coil - dark blue w/white tracer from ballast---- WELL I GUESS IS REALLY THE ONE COMING FROM IGN SWITCH

Batt feed - empty ---- THE ONE ( BLACK )COMING FROM AMMETER

Ign sw B+ - red wire from ignition switch--- YES

Stop sw B+ - pink wire to brake switch--- YES

Alt batt post - black wire from alternator--- YES


Haz sw B+ - pink wire to directional signal plug--- YES

Light sw B+ - black w/white tracer and pink, both to headlight switch plug--- YES SOMEHOW. MY PREFFERENCE IS SPLICE THE BLACK ONE ON A DIFF POSITIVE SOURCE BETWEEN AMMETER AND FUSEBOX MAIN SOURCE. JUST MY PREFFERENCE LIKE MOPAR DID. BUT WILL WORK.


Dash B+ - black wire to voltage limiter in cluster plug--- YES

Radio B+ - to radio plug--- YES.

Acc side, from left to right:
Horn sw - black w/white tracer to directional switch plug--- I CAN'T RECALL BEING TRACED, BUT YES, BLACK COMING FROM DIRECTIONAL SWITCH


Wiper B+ - to wiper plug--- YES, PINK ONE


Coil/Dist - dark blue w/white tracer out to ballast--- YES


Dome light B+ - to plug for rear harness--- YES, PINK ONE

El fan B+ - empty--- I GUESS LOL

AC/Heat - black w/white tracer out to fan controls--- YES. I GUESS YOU HAVE HEATER, NON AC

Alt ign B+ - empty--- YES

Ign sw accy - black from ignition switch plug--- YES

Turn sw B+ - red w/white tracer to directional switch plug--- I CAN'T REMEMBER TRACED IT, BUT YES

I'm sure I have some of these incorrect, so please advise your opinion so I can make the proper changes. I think that I may have the ballast wires incorrect, and I will also change the power to the light switch as you had previously suggested.

Thanks!!!




I thought you where to use the coil fuse for the dimmered cluster source instead ( tan and orange )... whatever, you set it right for the original use. If you decide to use for dimmer, will be fine too.

then beside everything of this remmeber after make some cuts you could it be cutting some power sources like cigar lighter, glove box... These must be sourced on any constant power source at batt side. You can have also some BATT source around hanging around on underdash harness. This source is a rubber plug with 3 female bullet terminals color red. You can splice these into the hazzards or brake fuses section. Normally in fact the glove box is plugged into the BATT rubber plug I was talking about hanging around.

Key In Buzzer... violet wire also allways hot. It Can be fused or not. Like the cigar lighter or glove box lights, OR like originally factory did, between ammeter and MAIN POWER SOURCE

I guess the blue wire to brake light is still attached to the RUN circuit. If you did cut it, you can splice it after the fuse to coil. That will tell you if fuse did blow or not.

I guess you rid off both flashers around and related wires.

BE SURE THE BATT, AMMETER, ALT AND IGN SPLICES ARE GOOD MADE!!! These runs ALL the car load


With a Charger born in Chrysler assembly plant in Valencia, Venezuela
Re: Wire guage [Re: NachoRT74] #618719
03/08/10 12:31 PM
03/08/10 12:31 PM
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OK, as it is right now I have the red 12 gauge wire that comes from the starter relay straight to the fuse block from the bulkhead connector,connected to the batt feed terminal. Can I just cut that wire and splice in the ammeter? I also will run the parallel wires to the ammeter.

You are correct, it is a heater only car, no AC.

I will attach the power wire for the headlights (black w/white tracer) to the black side of the ammeter, as you suggested.

The dimmer for the lights, I will connect the tan and the 2 orange wires together, and splice in a fuse. I would rather use the fuse for the coil, as directed in the instructions.

Re: Wire guage [Re: 70duster340] #618720
03/08/10 03:45 PM
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NachoRT74 Offline
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Quote:

OK, as it is right now I have the red 12 gauge wire that comes from the starter relay straight to the fuse block from the bulkhead connector,connected to the batt feed terminal. Can I just cut that wire and splice in the ammeter? I also will run the parallel wires to the ammeter.





on the way you did, you were bypassing the ammeter

to keep working ammeter, it must be in the middle of the line of the starter relay wire ( batt ) and the MAIN POWER SYSTEM wire at fusebox

be sure all the eyelet terminals to ammeter good crimped AND welded. I would cover this crimping/weldin section at terminal also with shrinking tube. Two of them to extra isolation

of course, nuts propperly tightem up.


With a Charger born in Chrysler assembly plant in Valencia, Venezuela
Re: Wire guage [Re: NachoRT74] #618721
03/08/10 10:20 PM
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OK, looks like yuo finally got me straight, and I really appreciate it.

I would like to ask your opinion on an idea, if I may. I would like to install something under the hood that would act as a central ground for things such as the ECU, voltage regulator, etc. I want to run ground wires from these items so there will be no issues with poor grounding. What would you advise that I use in this situation?

Re: Wire guage [Re: 70duster340] #618722
03/09/10 12:36 AM
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NachoRT74 Offline
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if you don't care to run wires allong all the engine bay, I you can go directly to radiator core support ground point... or even in fact directly to batt post.

However that is too much wire going through engine bay without need for that. You can try also a stud, or bolt with a nut from inside the cab somewhere at firewall on a clean of paint spot and also run up to there the engine ground strap.

You can weld the bolt to from inside the cab too, going through the firewall.

Another posible good spot and won't need anykind of job are the wiper motor studs!!! but thats MAYBE some far away from block to attach the engine ground strap, I mean if you take the idea to use the same spot for it. It is at least a little bit far away on B bodies. Maybe not too long distance on A bodies. You can also get a longer ground strap too to get it.

just some ideas comes into my mind right now.


With a Charger born in Chrysler assembly plant in Valencia, Venezuela
Re: Wire guage [Re: NachoRT74] #618723
03/09/10 10:17 AM
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I was thinking of a buss bar kind of setup, with a large stud for the ground strap, and smaller screws for the smaller ground wires. Is anything like this available? Maybe something from a hardware store?

Re: Wire guage [Re: 70duster340] #618724
03/09/10 11:20 AM
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NachoRT74 Offline
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maybe yes... dunno. Never searched for it. Maybe radio Shack up there ? ( we don't have radio Shack down here... used to be here but not anymore )

Maybe in fact some car parts shop like Advance, Kragen...

But honestly I don't think necesary a buss bar. Engine bay devices only requires ground for ECU and Regulator and both can it be tighten up with same ground strap. Lights have the ground on radiator core support. Parking lights by chassis itself same as wiper motor. Horn is body ground too, and no one of them are critical like regulator and ECU.

but you have the option to make it as your wish


With a Charger born in Chrysler assembly plant in Valencia, Venezuela
Re: Wire guage [Re: NachoRT74] #618725
03/09/10 09:09 PM
03/09/10 09:09 PM
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70duster340 Offline OP
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Doesn't the heater blower motor have it's own ground wire? I found something from searching on the internet. It's called a ground bar, which is sort of a buss bar for ground wires. I was thinking (just thinking for now) of putting the ground bar on the firewall, and connect the ground strap from the engine, and the ground wire from the blower motor, the regulator, and the ECU attached to it as well. Just trying to come up with ways to keep the engine compartment neat and tidy!

Re: Wire guage [Re: 70duster340] #618726
03/10/10 12:20 AM
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NachoRT74 Offline
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oh yes, forgott the blower ground LOL

yes if you find something nice to fit... why not try it ?



With a Charger born in Chrysler assembly plant in Valencia, Venezuela
Re: Wire guage [Re: NachoRT74] #618727
03/10/10 10:44 AM
03/10/10 10:44 AM
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70duster340 Offline OP
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Hey, again thanks for all the help!!!

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