Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
.960 or 1.00 torsion bars, any diffrence in handeling? #617911
02/19/10 02:34 PM
02/19/10 02:34 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 21,599
San Jose,CA
migsBIG Offline OP
YouTube is my go-to news source
migsBIG  Offline OP
YouTube is my go-to news source

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 21,599
San Jose,CA
I have a set of new Mopar Performance .960 diam torsion bar and was wondering if it's worth stepping up the the Just Suspension 1.00 in diam bars they have advertised. I am into agressive street driving and would mind doing some other events that include some nice twist and turns.

Here is the info:

1970 challenger
360 5.9 crate engine
automatic 727 low stall speed
magnum force tubular/adjustable control arms and dropped spindles
Firm feel stage two ps box fast ratio arm
kyb shocks
stock weight in frontend
still out on tires and wheels, probably start off with 15x7 steel rims on cooper cobras
larget tie rods and solid sleeves
still out on disc brakes
subframe connectors
rear suspension is still up to debate


what would you suggest?

Re: .960 or 1.00 torsion bars, any diffrence in handeling? [Re: migsBIG] #617912
02/19/10 02:45 PM
02/19/10 02:45 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,444
So Cal
autoxcuda Offline
Too Many Posts
autoxcuda  Offline
Too Many Posts

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,444
So Cal
Yes, there will be a difference. The rate of a .96 is 135 lbs/in and a 1.00 is 160 lbs/in

For comparison, a .86 /6 E-body bar is 90 lbs/in and a .92 Hemi bar is 115 lbs/in.

Is it worth the $159 to buy 1.00" t-bars? That's tough to tell.

Quote:

I have a set of new Mopar Performance .960 diam torsion bar and was wondering if it's worth stepping up the the Just Suspension 1.00 in diam bars they have advertised. I am into agressive street driving and would mind doing some other events that include some nice twist and turns.
....



Re: .960 or 1.00 torsion bars, any diffrence in handeling? [Re: autoxcuda] #617913
02/19/10 02:51 PM
02/19/10 02:51 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 21,599
San Jose,CA
migsBIG Offline OP
YouTube is my go-to news source
migsBIG  Offline OP
YouTube is my go-to news source

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 21,599
San Jose,CA
their prices went up to $179, but it's more of if ir will be worth spending $30 more or just not sell my bars and just work with them.

Re: .960 or 1.00 torsion bars, any diffrence in handeling? [Re: migsBIG] #617914
02/19/10 03:06 PM
02/19/10 03:06 PM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 6,516
Santa Cruz, California
L
Lefty Offline
master
Lefty  Offline
master
L

Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 6,516
Santa Cruz, California
Quote:

I am into agressive street driving and would mind doing some other events that include some nice twist and turns.




I have 1" in the 66 Coronet and find the spring rate perfect for aggressive driving with the heavy 440 up front. They probably would feel stiffer in your car because of the lighter weight of the small block. I would start with the .960 and invest in a set of Hotchkiss sway bars. You could always swap in the bigger bars later.

Re: .960 or 1.00 torsion bars, any diffrence in handeling? [Re: migsBIG] #617915
02/19/10 03:15 PM
02/19/10 03:15 PM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 2,682
Clinton Twp. Michigan
coronet1966d Offline
master
coronet1966d  Offline
master

Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 2,682
Clinton Twp. Michigan
go big or go home

Re: .960 or 1.00 torsion bars, any diffrence in handeling? [Re: coronet1966d] #617916
02/19/10 04:21 PM
02/19/10 04:21 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 21,599
San Jose,CA
migsBIG Offline OP
YouTube is my go-to news source
migsBIG  Offline OP
YouTube is my go-to news source

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 21,599
San Jose,CA
Quote:

go big or go home




I was going to go with a big block, but I have everything for the crate engine to just drop in. I will be doing more street driving, but would love to have the better handeling if it's noticeable. Just want it done right the first time so I won't have to redo it later.

Re: .960 or 1.00 torsion bars, any diffrence in handeling? [Re: migsBIG] #617917
02/19/10 08:03 PM
02/19/10 08:03 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 30,947
Oregon
A
AndyF Offline
I Win
AndyF  Offline
I Win
A

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 30,947
Oregon
Torsion bar stiffness is a factor of diameter to the fourth power. So a small change in diameter makes a big difference in road feel.

Re: .960 or 1.00 torsion bars, any diffrence in handeling? [Re: migsBIG] #617918
02/19/10 09:20 PM
02/19/10 09:20 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,695
Bitopia
J
jcc Offline
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
jcc  Offline
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
J

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,695
Bitopia
You never have heard anybody on Moparts ever say 1" is too big, actually, bigger then 1" might be better yet, say 1.03-4? IMO. .96" is a waste of time & $.


Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
Re: .960 or 1.00 torsion bars, any diffrence in handeling? [Re: jcc] #617919
02/19/10 10:00 PM
02/19/10 10:00 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,394
The Pale Blue Dot
Skeptic Offline
master
Skeptic  Offline
master

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,394
The Pale Blue Dot
I got a set of them for my A body, I have .92 bars now and wasn't planning on changing them, but for 159.00 I snapped 'em up

Re: .960 or 1.00 torsion bars, any diffrence in handeling? [Re: Skeptic] #617920
02/19/10 11:01 PM
02/19/10 11:01 PM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 699
Cooperstown, NY
jrlegacy23 Offline
mopar
jrlegacy23  Offline
mopar

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 699
Cooperstown, NY
If you go to just suspensions website, they still have them for $159. I do not know if the shipping is still free though.


[color:"#00FF00"]68 Fastback Barracuda with some stuff[/color]

Re: .960 or 1.00 torsion bars, any diffrence in handeling? [Re: Skeptic] #617921
02/20/10 11:09 AM
02/20/10 11:09 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 21,599
San Jose,CA
migsBIG Offline OP
YouTube is my go-to news source
migsBIG  Offline OP
YouTube is my go-to news source

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 21,599
San Jose,CA
thanks for the help everyone, going to check out the larger bars.

Re: .960 or 1.00 torsion bars, any diffrence in handeling? [Re: jrlegacy23] #617922
02/20/10 01:25 PM
02/20/10 01:25 PM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,168
Vancouver, WA
MoparMarq Offline
super stock
MoparMarq  Offline
super stock

Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,168
Vancouver, WA
Quote:

If you go to just suspensions website, they still have them for $159. I do not know if the shipping is still free though.




Negative, Ghost Rider. Shipping was 30.25 to Seattle area. At 159 bucks, I couldn't pass it up either...

Re: .960 or 1.00 torsion bars, any diffrence in handeling? [Re: migsBIG] #617923
02/20/10 01:34 PM
02/20/10 01:34 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 587
minot north dakota
ledft79 Offline
mopar
ledft79  Offline
mopar

Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 587
minot north dakota
Big bars = Big improvement.


DRIVE EM, DONT HIDE EM.
Re: .960 or 1.00 torsion bars, any diffrence in handeling? [Re: ledft79] #617924
02/20/10 04:24 PM
02/20/10 04:24 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 413
northeast ohio
M
mkdart Offline
mopar
mkdart  Offline
mopar
M

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 413
northeast ohio
I'm glad I saw this post.I ordered a pair today,159.95 plus 21 bucks shipping to Ohio. Mike

Last edited by mkdart; 02/20/10 04:30 PM.
Re: .960 or 1.00 torsion bars, any diffrence in handeling? [Re: mkdart] #617925
02/20/10 04:45 PM
02/20/10 04:45 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 8,658
A
Andrewh Offline
master
Andrewh  Offline
master
A

Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 8,658
the ebay one is 179 with free shipping. So depending on where you live, ordering direct can save a few bucks.

Re: .960 or 1.00 torsion bars, any diffrence in handeling? [Re: mkdart] #617926
02/21/10 06:44 PM
02/21/10 06:44 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,679
Mansfield,Ohio
moparrulzzz Offline
top fuel
moparrulzzz  Offline
top fuel

Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,679
Mansfield,Ohio
Quote:

I'm glad I saw this post.I ordered a pair today,159.95 plus 21 bucks shipping to Ohio. Mike





Me too just ordered a set. Was getting ready to call Mancini tomorrow and get a set of .096.
180.33 to my door!!

Re: .960 or 1.00 torsion bars, any diffrence in handeling? [Re: moparrulzzz] #617927
02/22/10 06:42 AM
02/22/10 06:42 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 283
N.E. England
Roppa440 Offline
super street
Roppa440  Offline
super street

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 283
N.E. England
The actual rate you get at the wheel from a torsion bar depends on how long your lower control arm is (B/E different to A) and how wide your wheels/tires are.

The longer the LCA and the wider the wheel, the lower the actual rating you get at the wheel.

Take that into account if you are trying to maintain a handling balance front to back.

In fact on the subject of balance, if you just fit stiffer front suspension without taking into consideration how stiff the rear is you will just end up with a car that understeers badly.

If you have understeer with a 0.96 bar you will make it worse going to a 1.00 bar.
If you have oversteer with the 0.96 you would be right to try a 1.00 bar.


2002 Chevrolet Corvette 5.7 LS1 2011 Alpha Romeo Giulietta Veloce 1.6 JTD Because running a Mopar in the UK is getting TOO expensive!!
Re: .960 or 1.00 torsion bars, any diffrence in handeling? [Re: Roppa440] #617928
02/22/10 07:44 AM
02/22/10 07:44 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,444
So Cal
autoxcuda Offline
Too Many Posts
autoxcuda  Offline
Too Many Posts

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,444
So Cal
Quote:

The actual rate you get at the wheel from a torsion bar depends on how long your lower control arm is (B/E different to A) and how wide your wheels/tires are.

The longer the LCA and the wider the wheel, the lower the actual rating you get at the wheel.

Take that into account if you are trying to maintain a handling balance front to back.

In fact on the subject of balance, if you just fit stiffer front suspension without taking into consideration how stiff the rear is you will just end up with a car that understeers badly.

If you have understeer with a 0.96 bar you will make it worse going to a 1.00 bar.
If you have oversteer with the 0.96 you would be right to try a 1.00 bar.




The rates I posted where for E/B body length LCA's.

I thought changes in wheel offset effect the spring rate rather than width. The normal of the forces on the contact patch is the center which is also the center of the rim width.

I think these cars have so much roll in stock form, a large contribution to the understeer is due to tire losing geometry. Reduce the roll and let the much better modern tires grip in the front. In stock form these cars are balanced. They understeer greatly unless there is enough power to thottle oversteer.

I went to 1" front T-bar in an A-body (stiffer than a B/E) with just the stock front sway bar. But I had 225/60/15 tires. Car definitely increased it's cornering power. It still understeer at the limit, but the limit was raised.

I then added a rear sway bar with same stock front sway bar and same 1" T-bar. A little oversteer. Next I put on a 1 1/8 front sway bar. Seemed pretty balanced. Now I'm trying a 1 1/4 front sway bar. Seems to understeer. But now I've got old hard tires. I could play with my adjustable front shock too... On and on it goes...

Re: .960 or 1.00 torsion bars, any diffrence in handeling? [Re: autoxcuda] #617929
02/22/10 10:03 AM
02/22/10 10:03 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 283
N.E. England
Roppa440 Offline
super street
Roppa440  Offline
super street

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 283
N.E. England
I quite agree with you mate. Except that you have to consider the full length of the "lever" on the suspension. Which is the outer edge of the wheel.

I was just trying to keep it simple and thought it was worth mentioning because there are people out there that don't realise what effects they might end up causing.

A mate of mine with a small block fitted uprated springs and sway bar to the rear of his car and wondered why he was suddenly oversteering like crazy...

Last edited by Roppa440; 02/22/10 10:06 AM.

2002 Chevrolet Corvette 5.7 LS1 2011 Alpha Romeo Giulietta Veloce 1.6 JTD Because running a Mopar in the UK is getting TOO expensive!!
Re: .960 or 1.00 torsion bars, any diffrence in handeling? [Re: Roppa440] #617930
02/22/10 10:50 AM
02/22/10 10:50 AM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 2,936
GA
roadrunninMark Offline
master
roadrunninMark  Offline
master

Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 2,936
GA
Would you guys recommend the 1" bar for my instance, still building the car. This is what I have.

69 B body, 526" RB stroker, pro street (tubbed with 4 link rear) real wide rear tires, want to use adjustable UCAs up front, otherwise pretty much stock components for front suspension. I will use a descent size front tire, say a 7" front rim (15" diamter). Obviously it wont be a G machine, more for fun and car shows. I dont think I will drag race it either. Too much expense and time to have it go into the wall, but I would like to run it to see what it would do.

Thanks,
Mark

Re: .960 or 1.00 torsion bars, any diffrence in handeling? [Re: Roppa440] #617931
02/22/10 10:54 AM
02/22/10 10:54 AM

A
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
A



Quote:

The actual rate you get at the wheel from a torsion bar depends on how long your lower control arm is (B/E different to A) and how wide your wheels/tires are.




Are you sure about this? I had always thought that, because the torsion bar is directly connected to the lower control arm inner pivot, the spring rate is the same as the wheel rate, regardless of the length of the LCA or the wheel offset - in contrast to any coil spring setup which necessarily has to be mounted somewhere between the control arm outer pivot and inner pivot and so only a percentage of the spring rate would act on the wheel, the actual amount depending on the length of the control arm and where on the arm the spring is attached (and in which case, the wheel offset would move the outer pivot and so affect the ratios and the percentage of the spring rate acting on the wheel).

Of course, I've been wrong before. . . .

Re: .960 or 1.00 torsion bars, any diffrence in handeling? #617932
02/23/10 09:07 AM
02/23/10 09:07 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 283
N.E. England
Roppa440 Offline
super street
Roppa440  Offline
super street

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 283
N.E. England
Quote:

Quote:

The actual rate you get at the wheel from a torsion bar depends on how long your lower control arm is (B/E different to A) and how wide your wheels/tires are.




Are you sure about this? I had always thought that, because the torsion bar is directly connected to the lower control arm inner pivot, the spring rate is the same as the wheel rate, regardless of the length of the LCA or the wheel offset - in contrast to any coil spring setup which necessarily has to be mounted somewhere between the control arm outer pivot and inner pivot and so only a percentage of the spring rate would act on the wheel, the actual amount depending on the length of the control arm and where on the arm the spring is attached (and in which case, the wheel offset would move the outer pivot and so affect the ratios and the percentage of the spring rate acting on the wheel).

Of course, I've been wrong before. . . .




Think of the torsion bar as a bolt you need to brake loose. You would not use that short stubby wrench if it was tight would you? You would use a long wrench to get the leverage.

The LCA is a lever that is twisting the end of the torsion bar. The longer the LCA the less the bar has to twist if you lift the wheel an inch. So the easier it is to twist the bar with the same force. Which is the same thing as lowering the spring rate of the bar.

I am not very good at explaining things so sorry if that sounds patronising or is even more confusing.


2002 Chevrolet Corvette 5.7 LS1 2011 Alpha Romeo Giulietta Veloce 1.6 JTD Because running a Mopar in the UK is getting TOO expensive!!
Re: .960 or 1.00 torsion bars, any diffrence in handeling? [Re: roadrunninMark] #617933
02/23/10 09:07 AM
02/23/10 09:07 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,412
E Central IN
N
nd65 Offline
pro stock
nd65  Offline
pro stock
N

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,412
E Central IN
I went from the 318 bars to the 1" with a rubber suspension on my 65 Coronet. I love the 1" bars. I run a 7" front wheel and cheapo Monroe gas shocks.

They do not ride harsh or rough at all. I live on a rough country road. It is a nice improvement.

Good luck.

Re: .960 or 1.00 torsion bars, any diffrence in handeling? [Re: Roppa440] #617934
02/23/10 12:50 PM
02/23/10 12:50 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 2,936
GA
roadrunninMark Offline
master
roadrunninMark  Offline
master

Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 2,936
GA
Hi Roppa,

Do you think the 1" bar would be good for my setup (please pan up a few posts, roadrunninmark)?

Thanks,
Mark

Re: .960 or 1.00 torsion bars, any diffrence in handeling? [Re: roadrunninMark] #617935
02/23/10 06:09 PM
02/23/10 06:09 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 21,599
San Jose,CA
migsBIG Offline OP
YouTube is my go-to news source
migsBIG  Offline OP
YouTube is my go-to news source

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 21,599
San Jose,CA
Thanks for all the input and refreshing my ideas on what the frontend should be and how it should be set up. From the discription, I also need to figure out what leaf springs I need for the challenger. I'l gonna put myorder in tomorrow for the torsion bars, and see what mods i can do to some stock parts to make them fit/work better.

Re: .960 or 1.00 torsion bars, any diffrence in handeling? [Re: migsBIG] #617936
02/23/10 06:46 PM
02/23/10 06:46 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 127
Phoenix, Arizona
HerboldRacing Offline
member
HerboldRacing  Offline
member

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 127
Phoenix, Arizona
My wife says she can feel the difference between 0.96" and 1.00" diameter.


Marvin Herbold 1973 Plymouth Duster 340 Drag Car Blog - http://www.HerboldRacing.com Videos - http://www.YouTube.com/mherbold Pictures - http://gallery.herbold-family.com/main.php?g2_itemId=10331
Re: .960 or 1.00 torsion bars, any diffrence in handeling? [Re: HerboldRacing] #617937
02/23/10 07:35 PM
02/23/10 07:35 PM
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,522
Ste-Sophie, Quebec, Canada
W
Wedgeman Offline
pro stock
Wedgeman  Offline
pro stock
W

Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,522
Ste-Sophie, Quebec, Canada
Lollllllll

Good one there !!!!

Re: .960 or 1.00 torsion bars, any diffrence in handeling? [Re: HerboldRacing] #617938
02/23/10 08:57 PM
02/23/10 08:57 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,695
Bitopia
J
jcc Offline
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
jcc  Offline
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
J

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,695
Bitopia
Quote:

My wife says she can feel the difference between 0.96" and 1.00" diameter.




Too bad you've only got a .84" bar


Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
Re: .960 or 1.00 torsion bars, any diffrence in handeling? [Re: Roppa440] #617939
02/23/10 11:01 PM
02/23/10 11:01 PM

A
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
A



Quote:

I am not very good at explaining things so sorry if that sounds patronizing or is even more confusing.




Not patronizing at all, and your explanation sounds reasonable to me. Thanks for responding.

Re: .960 or 1.00 torsion bars, any diffrence in handeling? [Re: roadrunninMark] #617940
02/24/10 09:30 AM
02/24/10 09:30 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 283
N.E. England
Roppa440 Offline
super street
Roppa440  Offline
super street

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 283
N.E. England
Quote:

Hi Roppa,

Do you think the 1" bar would be good for my setup (please pan up a few posts, roadrunninmark)?

Thanks,
Mark




I use 1" bars on my heavy 440 Challenger in conjunction with a 1 1/8th front sway bar.

But I have also uprated the rear springs. They are custom made to my spec (about 30% uprated from 440/Hemi spec) and are used with a 3/4" rear sway bar. But the springs are moved in 5/8ths each side for tyre clearence which again alters the actual wheel rate.

If I had to drive on dirt roads I would have gone softer. But a lot of how the car feels is down to the shocks.

One friend has even thicker torsion bars on his Challenger. But it does not feel as stiff as mine. Another has stock 383 suspension on his 440 Challenger. But the adjustable shocks make it handle really well and with comfort.

I made a mistake in fitting KYB shocks (but they were all I could afford at the time) and will soon be fitting adjustable QA1 shocks. I think my ride will benefit a lot from them.

But as it stands now my Challenger corners really flat and fast. Very slight understeer when pushed very hard and oversteer on demand from controlled application of the throttle.


2002 Chevrolet Corvette 5.7 LS1 2011 Alpha Romeo Giulietta Veloce 1.6 JTD Because running a Mopar in the UK is getting TOO expensive!!
Re: .960 or 1.00 torsion bars, any diffrence in handeling? [Re: Roppa440] #617941
02/24/10 02:08 PM
02/24/10 02:08 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 21,599
San Jose,CA
migsBIG Offline OP
YouTube is my go-to news source
migsBIG  Offline OP
YouTube is my go-to news source

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 21,599
San Jose,CA
nice to know about the QA1 shocks. It's still looking into a good leaf spring, so far that's still in the air.

Re: .960 or 1.00 torsion bars, any diffrence in handeling? [Re: migsBIG] #617942
05/18/10 09:30 PM
05/18/10 09:30 PM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 699
Cooperstown, NY
jrlegacy23 Offline
mopar
jrlegacy23  Offline
mopar

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 699
Cooperstown, NY
Did you decide on a leaf yet? Anything installed? How does it handle


[color:"#00FF00"]68 Fastback Barracuda with some stuff[/color]

Re: .960 or 1.00 torsion bars, any diffrence in handeling? [Re: jrlegacy23] #617943
05/19/10 08:38 AM
05/19/10 08:38 AM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 797
arizona, usa
L
lokalik Offline
super stock
lokalik  Offline
super stock
L

Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 797
arizona, usa
hey guys great post. glad my wife didn't read this one. understeer and oversteer was brought up, can someone explain just what that is and the cause and effect. i think i have an idea of what it is, probably worng though. thanks

Re: .960 or 1.00 torsion bars, any diffrence in handeling? [Re: lokalik] #617944
05/19/10 11:23 AM
05/19/10 11:23 AM
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 801
central CT
cudazappa Offline
super stock
cudazappa  Offline
super stock

Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 801
central CT
just a few notes from my setup with 1" t-bars

stock suspension, rebuilt, new rubber bushings (when I bought the car) and no-name shocks. Stock 318 leaf springs.

Upgraded 1" bars, 1 1/8" front sway bar, 12" rotors, SG, and 245/45 17 tires. Fiberglass hood (weight reduction)



Car handles MUCH more modern, but there are shortcomings when driven more aggressive than street. On the street its an absolute pleasure to drive. I plan on upgrading to XHD leafs soon w/ no sway bar. The rear leafs are soft. and would be very balanced at that stage. The bars are not too much for the shocks. In an agressive situation, right now, the street tires are the weak link. I'm remedying that. Further development for this car will go beyond 1" t-bars, but overall, for a street car they are great. Some taller sidewall tires (15") and even the potholes won't annoy you.


1971 Challenger
Page 1 of 2 1 2






Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1