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Alignment question - toe out? #60915
05/21/08 11:25 AM
05/21/08 11:25 AM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 576
Escondido, CA
kick_the_reverb Offline OP
mopar
kick_the_reverb  Offline OP
mopar

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Escondido, CA
Hello, this is a question for people knowledgeable in front end alignment.
The reason I'm asking is because I want to have a talk with the owner of the shop that did the alignment on my A-100 front solid axle.
The tech set the toe at 1/16" toe out. As far as I know most rear wheel drive vehicles are toed in. The tech insisted that because I have positive camber, I have to have toe out, or the tires will wear out real fast. Is it true?
Thanks,
Ran


"Hey mister, something's wrong with your car, it idles roughly" - number one comment I got in Israel when daily driving a 70 Barracuda with a lopey cam.

Currently working on - 1966 Dodge A100 van 318/auto
Finally - disc brakes on the front.
In the plans - rear disc brakes, B&M 250 blower
Re: Alignment question - toe out? [Re: kick_the_reverb] #60916
05/21/08 11:48 AM
05/21/08 11:48 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,788
Hamilton, Ontario Canada
Magnum Offline
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Magnum  Offline
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Hamilton, Ontario Canada
The only guys I know who like toe out are parking lot (autocross) racers. Does nothing for stability but the turn in is fast.

Can't you find any factory literature?
Come to think of it. The factory specs in the 60's were negative caster too.

Set it to toe in and see how it drives. I'll bet it's more stable at speed.


69 Super Bee, 93 Mustang LX, 04 Allure Super
Re: Alignment question - toe out? [Re: Magnum] #60917
05/21/08 12:07 PM
05/21/08 12:07 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 576
Escondido, CA
kick_the_reverb Offline OP
mopar
kick_the_reverb  Offline OP
mopar

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Posts: 576
Escondido, CA
I have the factory specs. When I put the van in the shop I told the owner that I have the book in the vehicle, in case his records don't go that far. When it was time to pay, the tech told me he didn't have the specs and that the owner never told him about the book.
The book, btw, specs Positive camber and toe in. My buddy said he talked to the shop owner and he again said that postive camber needs toe out. I want to be armed with some more knowledge before I confront the shop owner.
Thanks,
Ran


"Hey mister, something's wrong with your car, it idles roughly" - number one comment I got in Israel when daily driving a 70 Barracuda with a lopey cam.

Currently working on - 1966 Dodge A100 van 318/auto
Finally - disc brakes on the front.
In the plans - rear disc brakes, B&M 250 blower
Re: Alignment question - toe out? [Re: kick_the_reverb] #60918
05/21/08 12:30 PM
05/21/08 12:30 PM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,791
MI, usa
dvw Offline
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How much positive camber does it have? He is right if it has a lot of positive camber. Toe-in will accelerate wear with positive camber,toe-out will accelerate wear with negative camber. How much is to much? Your tires will tell you. use a tead depth gauge and keep a record of tread wear across the face of the tread. I would say at 1-1 1/2 degrees I would start watching wear.
Doug

Re: Alignment question - toe out? [Re: dvw] #60919
05/21/08 01:07 PM
05/21/08 01:07 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 576
Escondido, CA
kick_the_reverb Offline OP
mopar
kick_the_reverb  Offline OP
mopar

Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 576
Escondido, CA
IIRC it has 5/8 degrees positive camber.
Thanks,
Ran


"Hey mister, something's wrong with your car, it idles roughly" - number one comment I got in Israel when daily driving a 70 Barracuda with a lopey cam.

Currently working on - 1966 Dodge A100 van 318/auto
Finally - disc brakes on the front.
In the plans - rear disc brakes, B&M 250 blower
Re: Alignment question - toe out? [Re: kick_the_reverb] #60920
05/21/08 06:35 PM
05/21/08 06:35 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert Offline
Circle Track
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Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
Quote:

I have the factory specs. When I put the van in the shop I told the owner that I have the book in the vehicle, in case his records don't go that far. When it was time to pay, the tech told me he didn't have the specs and that the owner never told him about the book.


they have already made their mistake,you have enough here to hold them accountable.


live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
Re: Alignment question - toe out? [Re: RapidRobert] #60921
05/21/08 06:52 PM
05/21/08 06:52 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 576
Escondido, CA
kick_the_reverb Offline OP
mopar
kick_the_reverb  Offline OP
mopar

Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 576
Escondido, CA
Thanks, that's what I thought. I mean, I was there in the waiting room the whole time. They could have asked me what I wanted to do after explaining what they found.
Ran


"Hey mister, something's wrong with your car, it idles roughly" - number one comment I got in Israel when daily driving a 70 Barracuda with a lopey cam.

Currently working on - 1966 Dodge A100 van 318/auto
Finally - disc brakes on the front.
In the plans - rear disc brakes, B&M 250 blower
Re: Alignment question - toe out? [Re: kick_the_reverb] #60922
05/22/08 09:02 AM
05/22/08 09:02 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,376
D
dogdays Offline
I Live Here
dogdays  Offline
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As far as I know there has not been a single rear-wheel-drive car or truck built with toe-out. On the old stuff the rule of thumb was 1/8" toe-in.

R.

Re: Alignment question - toe out? [Re: dvw] #60923
05/22/08 10:20 AM
05/22/08 10:20 AM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 4,204
Fort Worth, TX
Clair_Davis Offline
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Posts: 4,204
Fort Worth, TX
Quote:

How much positive camber does it have? He is right if it has a lot of positive camber. Toe-in will accelerate wear with positive camber,toe-out will accelerate wear with negative camber. How much is to much? Your tires will tell you. use a tead depth gauge and keep a record of tread wear across the face of the tread. I would say at 1-1 1/2 degrees I would start watching wear.
Doug




Doug,
Can you expand on this a little bit? In my mind, I'm visualizing ANY toe as basically scrubbing the tire across the pavement rather than letting it roll straight ahead. Again in my mind, the scrubbing is where probably 90% of most tire wear comes from, since we all drive generally straight mor often than around corners. Well, that's true in TX, anyway. Folks in HI drive in circles all the time... Seems like without some -camber, toe-in would wear the outside of the tire more quickly. Toe out and -camber would wear the inside more quickly. A mind is a terrible thing, though, so if I'm not seeing this right, I'd like the straight scoop.


K-T-Reverb, I'd say 5/8" +caster is virtually nothing, but if that's all you can get with that suspension, there you go. I think in the old days they minimized +caster to make the car easier to steer, but that's just my gut feeling.

My other "gut feeling" on toe is that it's typically set up toe in to account for wear in suspension components, as well as stability issues. With really tight, new components in the front end, the tires won't tend to spread apart as much while driving as older, worn parts will. As they wear, steady-state toe will gradually reduce and the steering may begin to fell more loose and follow ruts in the road. Toe out will make for a handful on a daily driver, or a lot of fun on the autoX course. I'm not sure of any car that was shipped toe out (on purpose) either.

Clair

Re: Alignment question - toe out? [Re: Clair_Davis] #60924
05/22/08 12:54 PM
05/22/08 12:54 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 576
Escondido, CA
kick_the_reverb Offline OP
mopar
kick_the_reverb  Offline OP
mopar

Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 576
Escondido, CA
Thanks for the extra feedback.
I am going to ask and see if they can bend the axle enough to get a little negative camber, and then set the toe for what I want. I don't see how a 90" wheelbase van with a high center of gravity can benefit from toe out on the highway!
Ran


"Hey mister, something's wrong with your car, it idles roughly" - number one comment I got in Israel when daily driving a 70 Barracuda with a lopey cam.

Currently working on - 1966 Dodge A100 van 318/auto
Finally - disc brakes on the front.
In the plans - rear disc brakes, B&M 250 blower






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