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Re: Shop couldn't adjust caster
[Re: dwbiggs]
#59711
05/19/08 02:38 PM
05/19/08 02:38 PM
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Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 12,481
Chino Valley
RodStRace
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 12,481
Chino Valley
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Do you have to run the 17's (brake clearance)? If not and they are who you want to use, swap wheels. If not, find a place that can work with your car. Most alignment heads stick out 3-4 inches from the wheel edge, and extend up and down maybe 20 inches. See http://www.prealign.com/images/hunterman.jpg It could very likely have clearance issues. Different machines have different heads. You may have to check around to find a place that has the tools to work with your mods.
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Re: Shop couldn't adjust caster
[Re: RodStRace]
#59712
05/19/08 03:10 PM
05/19/08 03:10 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,329
Melbourne, FL
dwbiggs
OP
super gas
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OP
super gas
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,329
Melbourne, FL
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Quote:
If they are truly saying the didn;t have the right equipment I would be curious how they did the Camber and Toe.
They were able to do toe-in and camber but the guy said that in order to do caster the head had to be ratated like 30 deg both ways but the heads would not clear the fender? Something like that anyway.
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Re: Shop couldn't adjust caster
[Re: Pacnorthcuda]
#59713
05/19/08 03:25 PM
05/19/08 03:25 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,329
Melbourne, FL
dwbiggs
OP
super gas
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OP
super gas
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,329
Melbourne, FL
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Quote:
Are they saying they DID adjust Camber and Toe?
If so, what they may have ran into was that in getting the camber set to spec (which you really DON'T want BTW)the caster ended up being less than optimum, which is common in our cars, expecially in a car that may have been crunched at some point.
They did get camber and toe...1" neg camber and 1/16" toe.
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Re: Shop couldn't adjust caster
[Re: dwbiggs]
#59714
05/19/08 03:34 PM
05/19/08 03:34 PM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 21,814
Kirkland, Washington
Pacnorthcuda
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 21,814
Kirkland, Washington
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Quote:
Quote:
Are they saying they DID adjust Camber and Toe?
If so, what they may have ran into was that in getting the camber set to spec (which you really DON'T want BTW)the caster ended up being less than optimum, which is common in our cars, expecially in a car that may have been crunched at some point.
They did get camber and toe...1" neg camber and 1/16" toe.
GOOD numbers there! (You don't want postive camber, even though stock specs are positive) If you didn't tell them you wanted 1 degree neg then they already knew---thats a GOOD sign. Sounds like they don't have the right head style to clear your fenders with your 17 inchers.
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Re: Shop couldn't adjust caster
[Re: dvw]
#59718
05/19/08 07:22 PM
05/19/08 07:22 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 25,200
Upper Midwest
MoparforLife
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 25,200
Upper Midwest
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Quote:
They're right when you turn the wheels on a lowered car the heads can get close. If it steers straight and camber & toe are good I wouldn't worry about it.
Doug
 
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Re: Shop couldn't adjust caster
[Re: Exit1965]
#59719
05/19/08 07:25 PM
05/19/08 07:25 PM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 21,814
Kirkland, Washington
Pacnorthcuda
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 21,814
Kirkland, Washington
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Quote:
Can caster be adjusted without affecting camber since they are on the same 2 bolts, or would the camber need to be reset after turning the bolts?
No. The same two bolts. One affects the other.
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Re: Shop couldn't adjust caster
[Re: Pacnorthcuda]
#59720
05/19/08 10:53 PM
05/19/08 10:53 PM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 10,542
BROOK PARK, OH
WILD BILL
Senior Member of the Junior Dragster Club
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Senior Member of the Junior Dragster Club
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 10,542
BROOK PARK, OH
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You have to do camber and caster adjustments at the same time.
Try finding a shop that has a Hunter DSP 4000 or newer machine. I use a DSP 4000 at work and I cant remember the last time I had a problem with getting the heads to mount or read.
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Re: Shop couldn't adjust caster
[Re: WILD BILL]
#59721
05/20/08 08:15 AM
05/20/08 08:15 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,329
Melbourne, FL
dwbiggs
OP
super gas
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OP
super gas
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,329
Melbourne, FL
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Quote:
Try finding a shop that has a Hunter DSP 4000 or newer machine.
Now thats the answer I was looking for...thanks!
I notice that the car darts a little when I go over a ridge in the road...sorta like driving on the old bias ply tires. I assume this is due to a caster adjustment...since the tires are new and my camber and toe in are now correct.
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Re: Shop couldn't adjust caster
[Re: dwbiggs]
#59722
05/20/08 09:16 AM
05/20/08 09:16 AM
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 4,913
new berlin wisconsin
Mr T2U
master
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master
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 4,913
new berlin wisconsin
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i don't do alignments for a living but my buddy lets me use his alignment machine to do alignments on my car.
to the best of my knowledge you have to do a caster swing to get any readings, including camber and toe, from the alignment machine. how were they able to get the other readings without doing a caster swing.
they have a hunter hawkeye machine at the dealer where i work. according to the alignment guy this machine can do alignments on all cars with wheels up to 24" big.
perception is 90% of reality
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Re: Shop couldn't adjust caster
[Re: Mr T2U]
#59723
05/20/08 11:13 AM
05/20/08 11:13 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,451
So Cal
autoxcuda
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,451
So Cal
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Thing is, when you find a shop with the right equiptment, they will likely have to redo the camber and toe too. They'll probably have to start all over again.
Not having the caster equal or close will cause the car to pull at cruise speed.
My car is lowered with 15" wheels though. Not a problem. I don't see how 17" rim would make a difference in the setup shown in my picture...
Last edited by autoxcuda; 05/20/08 11:19 AM.
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Re: Shop couldn't adjust caster
[Re: dwbiggs]
#59725
05/20/08 02:49 PM
05/20/08 02:49 PM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 10,542
BROOK PARK, OH
WILD BILL
Senior Member of the Junior Dragster Club
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Senior Member of the Junior Dragster Club
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 10,542
BROOK PARK, OH
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I need to make one small correction due to my bad memory. The alignment machine is a DSP 400 not 4000.
Sorry if that caused any confusion. 
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Re: Shop couldn't adjust caster
[Re: Mr T2U]
#59726
05/20/08 05:05 PM
05/20/08 05:05 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 18,407
UPPER MICHIGAN, MARQUETTE COUN...
NITROUSN
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 18,407
UPPER MICHIGAN, MARQUETTE COUN...
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Quote:
to the best of my knowledge you have to do a caster swing to get any readings, including camber and toe, from the alignment machine. how were they able to get the other readings without doing a caster swing.
That what I was thinking.
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Re: Shop couldn't adjust caster
[Re: dwbiggs]
#59729
05/20/08 10:26 PM
05/20/08 10:26 PM
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 4,913
new berlin wisconsin
Mr T2U
master
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master
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 4,913
new berlin wisconsin
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Quote:
My car is way lower than that....probably 3" lower. Think he had to put extension on them for my 17"'s and that put them too close to fenders.
how is this for low. i have no problems aligning this on my buddies 20 year old alignment rack. the rocker panel pinch weld is about 3" off the ground. i have 17" wheels with 235 55 17" rubber.
i personally think the align shop is yanking your chain. time to find a new align shop.
Last edited by Mr T tu U; 05/20/08 10:30 PM.
perception is 90% of reality
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Re: Shop couldn't adjust caster
[Re: dwbiggs]
#59730
05/20/08 10:48 PM
05/20/08 10:48 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,451
So Cal
autoxcuda
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,451
So Cal
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Quote:
Quote:
My car is lowered with 15" wheels though. Not a problem. I don't see how 17" rim would make a difference in the setup shown in my picture...
My car is way lower than that....probably 3" lower. Think he had to put extension on them for my 17"'s and that put them too close to fenders.
My tires are 25.4" in dia and that picture was taken with the car raised at eye level. Also the rims are 15" so the top of the rim is not as close to the bottom of the fender. Best way to compare ride height is by measuring the bottom of the rockers in the front and rear.
I can't run any rubber bump stops right now. If I were 3" lower it would be sitting on the frame.
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Re: Shop couldn't adjust caster
[Re: NITROUSN]
#59731
05/20/08 10:55 PM
05/20/08 10:55 PM
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 2,590
Piqua, Ohio
dodgeram440
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 2,590
Piqua, Ohio
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Quote:
Quote:
to the best of my knowledge you have to do a caster swing to get any readings, including camber and toe, from the alignment machine. how were they able to get the other readings without doing a caster swing.
That what I was thinking.
I suppose it depends on the equipment you are using. I haven't used any brand new state-of-the-art equipment so I can't vouch for them. I'm used to using a Hunter D111 machine. I know it's a 20 year old machine, but you get camber and toe readings immediately, no need for a caster sweep except for caster readings.
I can see where there may be interefence with his fenders. Just because there were no clearance problems with a certain machine on a b-body don't mean there won't be with another machine on an e-body. Also, backspacing on wheels can be an issue. I think the easiest fix for the problem is to put the stock 15's on it, align it, then put your 17's back on.
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Re: Shop couldn't adjust caster
[Re: dodgeram440]
#59732
05/21/08 08:34 AM
05/21/08 08:34 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,329
Melbourne, FL
dwbiggs
OP
super gas
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OP
super gas
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,329
Melbourne, FL
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Quote:
I think the easiest fix for the problem is to put the stock 15's on it, align it, then put your 17's back on.
This sounds like the best idea....although I will be tagged with another 50.00 alignment. Maybe I can talk them into cutting the price a little.  
BTW, how much camber can you get out of a stock setup? Will it affect how much caster you can get...since one change affects the other. I told them 1 deg neg but can I get more.?
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Re: Shop couldn't adjust caster
[Re: dwbiggs]
#59733
05/21/08 09:36 AM
05/21/08 09:36 AM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 4,204
Fort Worth, TX
Clair_Davis
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 4,204
Fort Worth, TX
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I think caster is more important than camber on a driver type car. If you're going to push corners as well, then you need camber too, but if you have to sacrifice one for the other, keep the caster. If it's an all-stock setup, you may not be able to get more than a couple degrees of +caster and still keep the camber at 0.0 or slightly negative. This seems to be worse on B/E bodies than A bodies. I've got stock-type parts on my Valiant (no problem solver bushings or tubular UCA's), and I was able to get a little over 3* of (+)caster AND 0.75* (-)camber. If you can get 1.0* (-)camber but only 1.0* (+)caster, bump the camber down to 0.5* and try to get more (+)caster. It's a balancing act on stock parts. Be sure to match the caster on both sides.  Clair
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Re: Shop couldn't adjust caster
[Re: dodgeram440]
#59735
05/21/08 11:21 PM
05/21/08 11:21 PM
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 4,913
new berlin wisconsin
Mr T2U
master
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master
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 4,913
new berlin wisconsin
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i rum my car at 2 1/2* positive CASTER
1/2* neg CAMBER
1/16" neg toe
i can let go of the wheel at speeds over 100mph and the car doesn't wander.
perception is 90% of reality
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Re: Shop couldn't adjust caster
[Re: dodgeram440]
#59736
05/21/08 11:38 PM
05/21/08 11:38 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 18,407
UPPER MICHIGAN, MARQUETTE COUN...
NITROUSN
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 18,407
UPPER MICHIGAN, MARQUETTE COUN...
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Quote:
I suppose it depends on the equipment you are using. I haven't used any brand new state-of-the-art equipment so I can't vouch for them. I'm used to using a Hunter D111 machine. I know it's a 20 year old machine, but you get camber and toe readings immediately, no need for a caster sweep except for caster readings.
I read what you are saying but an alignment has to include caster. There is no steering automobile made that the caster, camber, toe should all be read. A fixed rear is one thing but a steerable axle needs all the readings.
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Re: Shop couldn't adjust caster
[Re: Mr T2U]
#59739
05/22/08 08:25 AM
05/22/08 08:25 AM
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,495
Shelby mi.
JAKE68
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,495
Shelby mi.
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A couple of things......... You can put another set of tires on it to do the aligment and it will not affect any of the readings . If the shop could not do caster they should not have charged for the service. Maybe just a hook up. And toe out is neg. toe in is poss. Jake
JAKES AUTOMOTIVE
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Re: Shop couldn't adjust caster
[Re: captaindodge]
#59740
05/22/08 09:28 AM
05/22/08 09:28 AM
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 13,185
aZLiViN
J_BODY
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 13,185
aZLiViN
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Quote:
Is "neg toe" toe out or toe in ? 
Toe-out (-) means the front of the tires are farther apart than the rear of the tires. Toe-in (+) means the front of the tires are closer together than the rear of the tires.
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