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Re: 440 Source kit update part 1
[Re: '72CudaRacer]
#569518
01/02/10 10:45 PM
01/02/10 10:45 PM
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 6,257
acworth / N. georgia - south e...
cheapstreetdustr
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 6,257
acworth / N. georgia - south e...
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i am really liking this thread so far... where else could you get this kind of data ..that keeps track of the pulse...of our hobby... i may not have the machining tools..but id like to know what to ask my machinist to look for... AND this gives me a way to check up on the work i pay them for.. a thread like this can paint a picture for us shade tree guys who may never come accross these issues..or get as specific in malfunction. thanks Bob. cheapst 
365" Iron J heads,,3480lbs best 1.39 60ft on SS springs.10.54,124 mph ...6.67 1/8th et.average 60fts 1.46 w/ small cam &.063 no2 pill tagged & insured
[image][/image]
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Re: 440 Source kit update part 1
[Re: @#$%&*!]
#569519
01/02/10 11:48 PM
01/02/10 11:48 PM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 807
Toronto, Canada
dirtybee
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 807
Toronto, Canada
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Quote:
I think it needs to be said that a radiused fillet at the edge of the journals IS A GOOD THING. It's one feature that makes aftermarket cranks BETTER THAN FACTORY CRANKSHAFTS. It would be easier and cheaper to just cut a right angle there and have a weaker journal.
Quote:
many aftermarket cranks have radiused fillets which is like a small ramp between the journal and crank throw... but nobody makes narrow main bearings for the low deck motors yet. therefore it may be necessary to scrape or shave a small amount of material from the bearing
for sure it's a good thing  good to point out though 
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Re: 440 Source kit update part 1
[Re: @#$%&*!]
#569520
01/03/10 02:12 AM
01/03/10 02:12 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 447
lake charles, la
sc4400
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 447
lake charles, la
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"Only the front and rear rod journals are drilled right through, the middle two stop about 3/4 of the way in - almost like the drillbit wasn't long enough." HUH?? Am I understanding this right? Would this mean instant bearing starvation?? Please clarify. RIP 
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Re: 440 Source kit update part 1
[Re: sc4400]
#569522
01/03/10 03:03 AM
01/03/10 03:03 AM
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 1,981
SE Michigan
TS3303
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 1,981
SE Michigan
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Quote:
"Only the front and rear rod journals are drilled right through, the middle two stop about 3/4 of the way in - almost like the drillbit wasn't long enough."
HUH??
Am I understanding this right? Would this mean instant bearing starvation?? Please clarify.
RIP
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the lightening holes through the center not the oil holes.
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Re: 440 Source kit update part 1
[Re: 493_DART]
#569524
01/03/10 07:32 AM
01/03/10 07:32 AM
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 6,295
U.S.
moparniac
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 6,295
U.S.
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From 440source website: http://440source.com/strokerkits.htm"In EVERY kit, we include everything you need, crank, rods, pistons, pins, locks, Clevite main bearings, Clevite rod bearings, Total Seal file fit moly rings, AND precision final balanced, all for just $1897!! We make sure that EVERY specific piston and EVERY specific rod used in our balance jobs are weighed to verify they are within our spec. We do not just use what's "written on the box" or any "estimated" weights for any part of the balancing operation. Other shops call this a "competition balance" and charge a few hundred bucks extra for it. We call it standard practice." Im real curious as to total final price ready to be installed! My dad retires next year and he is budget minded all the time so this is an excellent thread to learn from
Mopar Performance
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Re: 440 Source kit update part 1
[Re: B G Racing]
#569526
01/03/10 08:15 AM
01/03/10 08:15 AM
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 333
So. Jersey
Somerdale Flash
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 333
So. Jersey
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Thanks Bob for sharing... A LOT of guys just want to know the truth, good or bad... Couldn't ask for a better person to handle this. No one on this board is more respected.
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Re: 440 Source kit update part 1
[Re: Somerdale Flash]
#569527
01/03/10 09:06 AM
01/03/10 09:06 AM
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,910
Eighty Four, PA
B G Racing
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,910
Eighty Four, PA
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Quote:
Thanks Bob for sharing... A LOT of guys just want to know the truth, good or bad...
Couldn't ask for a better person to handle this.
No one on this board is more respected.
Thanks,Walt and all for the the kind words.What I like about this is the others that have information to share and do so with out all the bashing and drama.Together we can pinpoint issues and learn what steps need to be taken to correct them.Some of the problems are not really problems but only typical of engine building issues that we face on a regular basis.If your buying a Ford don't expect Mercedes,but that Ford will take you everywhere that Mercedes will at quite a lesser cost.I use Ford as an example cause it is the biggest POS on the market and yet the still out sales most of the other domestic manufactures.440 Source like Ford,Indy,BG and many others will have their loyal customers,either by choise or econmics. Returning the respect to Walt and all the other great contributers here on Moparts. Respectfully Bob
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Re: 440 Source kit update part 1
[Re: B G Racing]
#569528
01/03/10 10:51 AM
01/03/10 10:51 AM
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Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 872
Charlotte NC
DCI
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 872
Charlotte NC
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This is one of the first kits correct?? Not a current offering from 440source??
Thanks for the info Bob. Hopefully 2010 will see me putting together 440source 512 kit and this is good info.
"Turbo will be easiest, and at the HP level will also be easiest on parts. Spend the money to do it right, and you can build a 500 HP street motor that will live a long and happy life, and probably with a very basic short block."
Those words must have left a bad taste in his mouth!
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Re: 440 Source kit update part 1
[Re: DCI]
#569529
01/03/10 11:17 AM
01/03/10 11:17 AM
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 6,295
U.S.
moparniac
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 6,295
U.S.
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Good point! I think the earlier kits were $1597 and the new one's are currently $1897 ......
Mopar Performance
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Re: 440 Source kit update part 1
[Re: B G Racing]
#569530
01/03/10 11:50 AM
01/03/10 11:50 AM
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 8,861
Ontario, Canada
Stanton
Don't question me!
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Don't question me!
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 8,861
Ontario, Canada
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Quote:
"Only the front and rear rod journals are drilled right through, the middle two stop about 3/4 of the way in - almost like the drillbit wasn't long enough."
HUH??
Am I understanding this right? Would this mean instant bearing starvation?? Please clarify.
If you go back and look at the photos, #s 1 & 2 rod journals aren't finished on the crank Bob has. I'm saying two of mine aren't finished either. These are the lightening holes, not the oil passages.
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Re: 440 Source kit update part 1
[Re: B G Racing]
#569531
01/03/10 03:18 PM
01/03/10 03:18 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,923
NC
440Jim
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,923
NC
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Quote:
Flange-3 Rough and uneven thickness and concentric.
My backup engine has a 440source kit, 4.250" stroke RB crank, so I checked my crank flange. The finish looks smooth and the TIR on the flange OD was 0.001" measured in the block with used "mockup" bearings.
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Unfinished rod journal.-1
I see the journal surface is finished, but the lightening hole isn't all the way though the full dia. How far is the full dia hole? I don't see any problem with that, just not pretty. On mine, only the 5-6 rod journal hole wasn't drilled all the way though, the tip of the drill broke thru and left a round hole about 0.25" dia, so it almost made it. 
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Radius interference,main bearing-2
What bearings are you using? And what is the bearing total width? Since I have RB mains, I am using Clevite MS-1277HG bearings and the radius cleared. These bearings have a total width of 0.94" and at the chamfer (H) the width is about 0.84"-0.85"
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Re: 440 Source kit update part 1
[Re: B G Racing]
#569532
01/03/10 03:26 PM
01/03/10 03:26 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,923
NC
440Jim
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,923
NC
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My crank snout (for damper) was slightly tapered. At the end it was 1.5315" dia and farther toward the #1 main it was 1.5320". This was measuring at 53F as my garage/workshop is that temp today. So a few .0001" larger at higher temp would be expected. I got their 6.535" I-beam rods (several years ago), and they look like RPM Int. rods (bolt heads). http://www.rpmmaxx.com/images/Pro%20I-Beam.jpgQuote:
Unfinished rod journal.-1
The 5-6 rod journal lightening hole. All the others were drilled completely through.
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Re: 440 Source kit update part 1
[Re: 440Jim]
#569533
01/03/10 03:33 PM
01/03/10 03:33 PM
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,910
Eighty Four, PA
B G Racing
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,910
Eighty Four, PA
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Quote:
Quote:
Flange-3 Rough and uneven thickness and concentric.
My backup engine has a 440source kit, 4.250" stroke RB crank, so I checked my crank flange. The finish looks smooth and the TIR on the flange OD was 0.001"
Quote:
Unfinished rod journal.-1
I see the journal surface is finished, but the lightening hole isn't all the way though the full dia. How far is the full dia hole? I don't see any problem with that, just not pretty. On mine, only the 5-6 rod journal hole wasn't drilled all the way though, the tip of the drill broke thru and left a round hole about 0.25" dia, so it almost made it.
Quote:
Radius interference,main bearing-2
What bearings are you using? And what is the bearing total width? Since I have RB mains, I am using Clevite MS-1277HG bearings and the radius cleared. These bearings have a total width of 0.94" and at the chamfer (H) the width is about 0.84"-0.85"
Main bearings are Clevite MS-876P,rod are Clevite CB-743H.Both were supplied with the kit.The rods bearings do not have interference with the radius.
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Re: 440 Source kit update part 1
[Re: '72CudaRacer]
#569534
01/03/10 04:01 PM
01/03/10 04:01 PM
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,910
Eighty Four, PA
B G Racing
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,910
Eighty Four, PA
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Quote:
I know that nothing is "perfect", thats why there are tolerances. But as a point of reference, how do "stock" mopar cranks measure out in regards to journal taper, concentricy, and indexing? A lot of folks take factory stuff and reuse it with out checking anything and don't give it a second thought. Just an honest question that maybe some of you machinist that have checked a lot of them can answer.
I too am looking very seriously at a 440 source kit.
Thanks, Brian
Brian,having done a great deal of "stock factory" rebuilds over the last 40+ years we found that the machining was very good and specs held to good acceptable tolarences.Some of the later engines after 1971 showed more issues as the tooling was becomming worn by production use and many times it was cheaper to accept the issues or discontinue that particular part.440 blocks from 1971 and up show a lot of different issues as did the 383s.Usually you can correct those issue since you can spot the wear patterns during the disassemble,similar to what we do on a tear down and freshen up on a race engine.It was not uncommon in the early years to find one or other undersize bearing,oversize bores,oversize lifters and so on in factory production engines.The assemblers were more on their toes back then.
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Re: 440 Source kit update part 1
[Re: B G Racing]
#569535
01/03/10 04:04 PM
01/03/10 04:04 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,923
NC
440Jim
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,923
NC
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Quote:
Main bearings are Clevite MS-876P,rod are Clevite CB-743H.Both were supplied with the kit.The rods bearings do not have interference with the radius.
My rod bearings clear also. I am using Clevite CB-743HN, this replaced the CB-743H bearings as all of the "H" are now narrowed "HN" as I understand it.
I measured an old set of low deck main bearings, Clevite MS-876P, and they were .94" wide with almost no chamfer. Compared to my "H" bearings (RB mains).
Quote:
crank end play was checked and were in spec.It came in at .006,.004 to .009 is acceptable.
Mine turned out to be 0.005", so it was fine too.
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Re: 440 Source kit update part 1
[Re: 440Jim]
#569536
01/03/10 04:10 PM
01/03/10 04:10 PM
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,910
Eighty Four, PA
B G Racing
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,910
Eighty Four, PA
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Quote:
Quote:
Main bearings are Clevite MS-876P,rod are Clevite CB-743H.Both were supplied with the kit.The rods bearings do not have interference with the radius.
My rod bearings clear also. I am using Clevite CB-743HN, this replaced the CB-743H bearings as all of the "H" are now narrowed "HN" as I understand it.
Quote:
crank end play was checked and were in spec.It came in at .006,.004 to .009 is acceptable.
Mine turned out to be 0.005", so it was fine too.
 You can't find 527HDs anymore,HNs is about the only choise.
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